“You’ve got to ask, what are the opposites I operate within and how can I exist in that environment?” In this episode, we are joined by cultural anthropologist and entrepreneur Ujwal Arkalgud who brings some fascinating insight into tension paradox and how it informs our lives and businesses.
Today's guest is cultural anthropologist, entrepreneur, investor, and author, Ujwal Arkalgud, and the conversation about tension paradox was different than any we've had on the show before.
In it, we talk a lot about binary opposites and operating within dichotomies.
"You've got to ask, what are the opposites I operate within and how can I exist in that environment?" Said another way, "How can I fit within the push and pull?"
As a business owner or leader, this concept informs and impacts everything – the upfront work that needs to be done, purpose, resiliency, effective human-centered sales, scaling and growth...
"Using tensions is not as complicated as sometimes people think it is" and Ujwal gives a great 3-step exercise at the end of the episode to help with that.
Listen in! It may transform how you think about life and, for sure, business.
—
Ujwal Arkalgud is a leading voice in growth anthropology and sustainable business strategy. As the founder of Investment Ark, he works with early-stage B2B startups, offering both strategic investments and hands-on coaching to help founders navigate the complexities of building resilient, sustainable businesses. Ujwal believes that growth isn’t about chasing hypergrowth—it’s about embracing the tensions inherent in scaling to unlock long-term success.
Previously, Ujwal co-founded and bootstrapped MotivBase, a predictive
anthropology platform that he scaled to a 10x revenue multiplier. His work with Fortune 500 companies—including Target, Kroger, and General Mills—helped them decode customer beliefs and behaviors to build multi-billion-dollar private label brands.
Since MotivBase’s acquisition, Ujwal has also worked with mid-market private equity portfolio companies, helping businesses with $15M–$35M in revenue overcome growth challenges using his growth anthropology framework. This experience complements his passion for supporting startups and growth-stage businesses, enabling him to bring diverse insights into scaling sustainably across industries and company sizes.
As the publisher of Decision Lab, a newsletter dedicated to uncovering cultural forces shaping customer behavior, Ujwal provides decision frameworks and insights to founders and business leaders worldwide. His upcoming book, The Tension Paradox (2026), explores how leaders can turn the contradictions of scaling into opportunities for innovation and resilience.
Passionate about supporting the 99% of founders often overlooked by the traditional VC model, Ujwal is on a mission to help businesses grow on their own terms while building lasting impact.
He'd love to connect if you’re a founder, investor, or tech leader interested in growth strategies, the future of anthropology in business, or the untapped power of cultural insights.
Head to https://investmentark.net/ to learn more, connect with him on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ujwalarkalgud), or sign up for his newsletter (https://decisionlab.beehiiv.com/subscribe).
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Ujwal Arkalgud, an award-winning cultural anthropologist and entrepreneur. Welcome, Ujwal.
Thank you very much, Celine. Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to chat with you. I love, I love that you have anthropology as part of your intro because I have a longstanding relationship with anthropology, thanks to university. But before we get into anthropology at all, I'm gonna start with the question I always ask, which is the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. When you hear that phrase, what comes up for you or what does that mean for you?
So many things, but I think the biggest thing probably is resiliency 'cause we've had to have so much of that in the process of building a company. And sometimes, you know, actually I should say this way, I was a first-time entrepreneur. I started the company 2015. Everybody would tell me, oh, you really have to be resilient when you're an entrepreneur. You don't really understand it until you're in the throes, and then you realize, oh, what they meant was every single day there's something or the other, you know? So I think that's probably what comes to my mind the most.
I love that perspective. I think it's really, I think it's a very valuable perspective for people to hear, is that, especially, look, leadership in general resiliency matters. And I think in entrepreneurship especially, that daily resiliency is even more obvious because you are building something in a specific way, the idea of stability or consistency is kind of an illusion in entrepreneurship a lot, especially early on. So resiliency is a daily practice.
It's so true. And, you know, I think you get so used to being rejected 98, 99% of the time as an entrepreneur, right? Whether it's a sales conversation or you're trying to raise money with a venture capital firm, whatever it is, you're just rejected 98, 99% of the time, until, by the way, until you achieve success. And then when you achieve success, everybody says yes, but then you don't need them to say yes anymore, and that's the beautiful irony of entrepreneurship.
Yeah.
That when you really need people to, you know, take a chance on you, they don't want to. So I think that's also part of it is you just get so used to hearing no all the time. And I think that also requires a lot of resiliency 'cause you can't worry about bruised egos 'cause then you just can't go anywhere.
Yeah. So that's a really interesting topic because you do hear no a lot as an entrepreneur. And you, many of us are very sensitive to rejection, whether it's bruising our egos or we just don't like the feeling that happens when we feel rejection in some way. And I imagine it's a muscle that you build the more you hear it, right? That's the best way to kind of, I imagine, like I haven't heard it, obviously I've heard it too, but, you know, I assume it is a muscle that you are building the more you hear it. How do you go about building that muscle? What is that experience? What was that like for you and how did you, I'm gonna say, I don't know if change is the right word, let's say it is, but like, change your approach or change how you thought about it or become more resilient around things like that?
I use this analogy. And it sounds a bit, maybe it sounds a bit depressing, at least that's what somebody told me the other day, but I think it's very much true, over time, I realized that the world is made up of Lego blocks. And if you want to fit in, even though you're unique, you have to package yourself up such that you fit into the existing Lego structure. If you don't, it's impossible to win in any situation. And I think that was the change in mindset that had to happen for my business partner and I over time. Because, you know, the first few times you get, you know, rejected, you take things personally because, you know, it's so personal building a business. And I think it's easy to say, oh, you know, this person lacks vision, they lack a sense of imagination, you know, they don't want to innovate. 'Cause that's kind of your own defense mechanism to say, it's you, it's not me. But over time, I think you have to take a step back and be able to self-reflect and go, okay, what is it about me that's potentially contributing to that? And I think that was the big realization is the Lego, I use the Lego block analogy, because that's just how the world is, you know. Before you hit record, we were talking a little bit about the education system.
Yep.
Look at pretty much politics, everywhere in life. We are just surrounded by Lego structures. And anybody who tries to break that structure, they're usually just, they get spit out. So you have to find a way to fit in and I think that's the part that probably makes entrepreneurship also deeply, deeply satisfying endeavor perhaps-
Yeah, yeah.
Is when you discover how to do that.
Yeah.
With time.
I love the Lego block analogy. I think that's a really interesting one. And I think that, I'm gonna get the saying wrong, but there's a saying that, you know, change happens from the inside, right? If you're inside the system, if you can get inside, can fit yourself in as a Lego block, once you're in the system, it becomes a lot easier. Allegedly. Whether you grew that or not. But the thought is that it becomes a lot easier to break down the system or to start to dismantle some of the systems that are in place. And I think there's often so much tension between seeing that the system is broken in so many ways and it really is lacking in innovation and it oppresses so many people, whatever the case is, and then saying, but I'm gonna fit myself into it to get inside it to be able to change it. And I think there's a lot of tension for people inside of that. Sometimes ego, sometimes for other ways. But there's a reality of if you want to do something different, oftentimes you first have to get into whatever the system is to do the different thing.
Yeah, that's such a, I think that's such an important point because, you know, even if, I think one of the things that really helped me personally in the entrepreneurial journey was just my obsession with anthropology. And, you know, you talked about tensions. Tensions is such an intricate part of the world of anthropology. And I'll get nerdy just for one second and-
Please, get nerdy.
post-structuralist. In post-structuralist anthropology, there's a philosopher I love, Jacques Derrida, that talks about, deconstruction obviously a huge part of social sciences, but specifically talks about this idea of binary opposites. And if you carry that into our modern world, you realize that the human brain is constantly operating in sort of this constant dichotomy. And our job always is to balance. So the most common example of that is society's expectation of me or my parents' expectation of me versus who I want to be. Classic example, you know, when you're growing up, coming of age. But this happens to us literally in every moment. We're at the grocery store trying to decide what to buy, that's happening to us. Now, as a business, if you put that lens, you start to realize, or at least you start to think in a more astute manner as to what is it that is driving the push and pull, you know, culturally within the environment I operate within, and then how can I fit within that push and pull? I can't fit outside of it. The train has to only go on the track. So I have to get on the track and then I can decide, do I wanna be on one side of that spectrum or the other? But I think, you know, sometimes, sometimes people think this type of thinking is all theoretical, but actually it's really powerful, really important, because that nuanced understanding, if you don't have it, you know, I see so many entrepreneurs doing the same, making the same mistakes, right? You get on a sales call, you talk about products, features, benefits, you're trying to sell and it doesn't work 'cause it's boring.
Yeah.
And it's not solving a human problem. So yeah, it just made me instantly think about that. And I think part of being inside the network to solve the problem is first and foremost understanding what is that, you know, let's say, let's call it the binary opposite, what are those opposites that I operate within and then how can I exist within that environment?
Thank you for bringing that up because first and foremost, I talk about, I'm obsessed with binary thinking in the work that I do. You know, I do a lot of coaching, leadership work, working with organizations around designing culture and for the organization in a way that is like behavior-based, right? Like how do we actually show up and do the things we do together in an effective way, recognizing that everyone's coming from different places. And it is so easy in all of those situations, whether it's a one-on-one coaching situation or having those conversations for people to get into binary thinking, this is right, this is wrong, whatever it is, pick a topic, this is right, this is wrong. And they lose all the nuance. And I'm always like the context of everything matters. The nuance always matters. And so I love the way that you brought that up because I think it is, I wish we talked about it more in all these different ways, right? It wasn't just people going, well, that's a theoretical thing, of course, you don't really apply it. Your point I think is a wonderful point, which is if you think about this inside the context of whatever you're doing, it does matter. And it's not just theoretical. There are practical applications of these things.
Absolutely, yeah. My wife is a therapist, so she'll often tell me about how, you know, when she's in a session, a client will inadvertently talk about something where they're expressing this dichotomy of independence versus dependence. So for example, somebody might say, you know, I know I have to stand on my own two feet because that's how I know how to take care of people. But there's so much in that one little statement about how you believe that independence is a privilege, independence is, let's say strength, but dependence isn't. And there's so much that is implicit in all of this. And this is what, I think this is what drew me to anthropology in the first place, is the fact that there's so much implicit in the human condition and the way we talk and the way we use language. And it always gets me so excited. And I think, you know, also coming back to your earlier point about resiliency, you know, I remember the early days of being on a sales call and the call's not going well. And for us the best part about it was analyzing the call after. And it wasn't about saying, oh, you should have said this, or you should have sold it that way. No, it was about saying what was subtle or what was implicit and what was being communicated by the prospect that we just didn't get on that call. And that's when the light bulb started to go off for us, recording all these failed sales calls and realizing what was wrong and also taught us so much about what our product needed to be. And so, it all kind of comes around full circle eventually.
Yeah. It's a very, excuse me, it's very human-focused when you're doing it that way. It's less about this is the right way of doing it, so we're just gonna keep doing it the way that we think we should do it, and more about like the human element, which is that for me it's always the nuance. Humans are so different and each of them is so different. So it's really like taking a look at that and kind of finding themes inside of that, which I think is hard in the sense that it's not as easy as just going, we're checking a box, 'cause you're actually thinking about the nuance, and it sounds like for your team and you as well, it ultimately was the game changer to improving sales calls and getting more of the results that you were hoping to get from these things.
Absolutely. And, you know, we had this sort of, I guess existential moment three years into our business where we were doing really well. We started off as a consulting business, we were doing really well, very profitable. And we realized that's not how we were gonna scale the business. We always wanted to scale the business and exit. That was, you know, entrepreneurs tend to have this mindset, oh, don't build businesses to sell, build businesses for a lifetime. Well, we always wanted to build a business to sell. That was always our intention. And so we knew we had to scale this thing and we knew that what we were building was not gonna fit into a Lego structure. And, you know, one fine morning, we had to make the call of changing our business model from a consultancy to a SaaS, a software as a service business. We had all the intellectual property, but it meant taking a very risky decision, which is basically stop selling your, you know, kill the cash cow.
Yep.
And go figure out how you're gonna make it in a completely different business environment. And we, our revenue, less than halved. All our employees at that time, we were already 10 or 12 people perhaps, everybody was freaking out going, are we gonna lose our jobs? And I don't think there was a single employee that quite understood, other than our tech team 'cause they were very excited about doing it, I don't think there was a single employee that really understood why we were doing that even though we tried to communicate it. And I think, you know, talking about crisis and resiliency, it's one of those situations where, in hindsight now I realize, that subtlety of figuring out, we knew what that tension was that we were operating within. 'Cause it kind of was our North Star, we always knew we were on the right path because we were always playing, we were on one end of that spectrum, we decided to go to the other end but we never left, the train never left the tracks. We were always consistent with where the industry was. So I think that was sort of the big aha. And, you know, I'll give you one quick anecdote.
Please.
I remember we were on a call and we hadn't quite figured out what that tension scale was at that point. And we're on this call and somebody said, you know, I really wanna work with you, because you guys are kind of my insurance policy. And we said, what do you mean? And so just for context for your listeners, my last company motive base was a research technology business so we were doing research for large corporations, helping them in innovation. So the prospect says to us, well, you're my insurance policy because you guys helped me find things that I otherwise might have missed. And that's critical for me because not only does it, I can't afford to miss anything, because if I missed train on something, on a trend, on an opportunity, not only do I lose millions, I also miss my next promotion. And I want that promotion. He said that to us blatantly. And that's when the bulb went off for us. And we realized that's our job. We are actually, what we're doing is helping people ensure that they don't miss anything. And we were extremely good as anthropologists. Our technology was extremely good at finding the things that other people couldn't find. And so that was our pitch. In the first seconds, we would say, we find the things that other people can't find and the prospect would lean in and it allowed us to build and scale our business and make that transition. But until that light bulb went off in that moment, we didn't quite know what our purpose was.
Right.
So yeah. Sorry for the long-winded-
No, no, no, no, no.
analogy there. But think that was the one moment, if I just think back, just reflecting back on it, that was just kind of the big aha for us, the unlock if you will.
Yeah. It's incredible to have a moment like that. And also we often need to hear it from an outside perspective, like someone reflecting back. When we're in it, it can be really hard for us to know, quote unquote, or put into words, put into language that's understandable what that thing is. Even if we're like, we know we're good at stuff, whether it's an individual or a company, we're good at something. We're doing well, this thing is working. But to be able to put it in the language that someone else can see from the outside is really tough. And so, I think it's really important, one, you know, this is my own, this is my own nerdy, you know, perspective on this. I'll fully own that. To be able to hear the feedback, seek it out, and actually be open to it, good, bad, and ugly, 'cause that's how we all learn and grow is being willing to hear it and take it in and own what's ours, and also recognize what's not ours, that discernment matters. So that, and then also being willing to have a different perspective shared with us, which is not always the same as feedback. It can just be a shift of perspective and being open to our perspective not being, quote unquote, right. Just because it's already in there.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the famous Simon Sinek TED Talk where he talks about start with why. That's become very popular and especially in the corporate industry. Everybody talks about that. From an anthropological perspective, you know, for me that's not enough because, so for example, what happens is everybody says, oh, my purpose is, you know, I wanna wake up in the morning and be excited about what I do. Oh, well, if you're an entrepreneur and that's your purpose, I hate to break it to you, but 90% of your days are gonna be ending in exhaustion and you're not necessarily going to be excited about what you're doing. Maybe the final vision of what you're trying to build is keeping you going. And so, you know, I was talking about tensions earlier, from an anthropology standpoint, the thing that excites me is to say, okay, the why isn't what you want to do. The why is, what is this innate human tension that your customers are grappling with and how can you help resolve a part of that? You can't resolve all of that. How can you help resolve a part of that? Right? To me, that gives you purpose. And then if you believe in that, then it gives your organization purpose, and I think that's different from the type of why that Simon Sinek talks about, which is, you know, why do you exist or why do you work personally? And I wanted to separate the two because I often, when I tell people this, they say, oh, it's like the Simon Sinek, start with why. And I say, no, there's a difference. Because as a business you have to figure out. And it's not your customer's why, because your customer's why is completely dependent on this push and pull they're experiencing. I'll give you this example. I have investments in a few startups. One of the startups I'm working with, they operate in an environment where there is this huge tension between human and technology. And the problem is there's an implicit meaning that human is accurate and technology is inaccurate, especially with all the AI stuff happening right now. So when you talk to a prospect, the prospect comes onto the call, already on the human side expecting a consulting agreement and they're selling a technology full with AI and all of this stuff. And you can hammer the prospect 50 times by saying, oh, I have the best AI minds working on my startup. And they're not listening to you, because emotionally they're going, you're not solving my problem. So I think this is the realization that I always feel entrepreneurs need to have is asking that difficult question and figuring out what is that emotional tension that their buyers are experiencing? And then how can you then get on that page and figure out, how can I move their needle just a little bit? You can't move them all the way. How can I just make that little movement that creates enough room for me to play a small role in here and then over time you figure out where to go? But I think that's the element that I also wanted to just talk a little bit about, 'cause I feel like it's not talked about enough, especially in entrepreneurship.
Absolutely. And I do think that part of the reason it's not talked about enough, you know, does, no offense to Simon Sinek, but it does come from the popularity of like his thought leadership around what he's defined to start with why, and people get really focused on that. And, by the way, I think what you're talking about also applies to the concept of why that he's talking about, he's just simplified it in a way that people go, this is an easy, I'm just gonna figure out my why. And my experience has been coaching people who have read his, and it's, again, no offense to him, 'cause I understand you break things down and simplify them for marketing purposes, but they'll go through his book and they'll do his start with why and they'll figure and it comes to a point where they haven't looked at their own, the tension within themselves enough. And whatever they thought was the why that they got out of that process doesn't resonate the same way. It doesn't really align. Like there's something missing. And I think hearing what you're, you know, I appreciate the way you put it 'cause I hear what you say and I'm like, I think it's that internal tension, not just the human tension of like a prospect, but I think there's an internal tension piece. And I think we're so, as a culture, as a people, we're so tension avoidant, we just avoid all thoughts of any kind of tension.
So true.
As opposed to being like, hey, there is healthy tension. Tension is not a bad thing. It can be very, it can be, but it can be very healthy. And if we look at it, we can learn so much from the tension that exists.
That is so true. And I'm sure in a lot of the work you do, maybe you can correct me here, but I'm sure a large part of it also is helping people, 'cause to your point, if your brain is always telling you to resolve this tension, the other thing your brain is always telling you is, hey, ignore the thing that makes you uncomfortable.
A hundred percent.
Right? Which means you take a model like start with why, you end up with a why statement that is not necessarily your genuine truth, right? Because you ignore your flaws, the things that you don't like acknowledging about yourself. And we all have them, right? And I'm sure a large part of the work you do also is helping people realize what are those things that they're sort of avoiding?
Yes.
Right? Or to sit in the uncomfortable, if you will.
Absolutely. Similar to, and I think this aligns a lot, I mean, I studied anthropology, not the level you did, in university. It was one of my majors. 'Cause I was like sociology and anthropology, I was so interested in the how humans relate and play to like, I was like more of this. So I think what I'm about to say kind of aligns with that as well. But the, we all avoid being seen potentially as not perfect, even though no one is perfect, right? Like we're all like how do I, I don't wanna be seen as something that isn't perfect or flawed in many ways, so I'm not even gonna acknowledge those things about myself inside of my own personal way of being. And we continue, you know, and we're taught, you know, in school. This is the right answer, this is the wrong answer. Even if it's things like essays that are just, but there's a right way and a wrong way. And so it's just so ingrained in us to keep doing that, that it's hard to step out of it and be able to see all of those pieces. And I think the thing I say to people more often than not to break tension is like, so you're human and not perfect like every single human that exists.
Right.
Why do we think, why is that, why are we so avoidant of any tension?
Yeah.
It does not serve us or businesses or leadership or anything in my opinion.
And I think, you know, just to build on that point, you know, one of the biggest problems I see, obviously Canada has an amazing tech sector already. You know, we definitely, when we sold our business in 2022, we definitely benefited from, you know, the big boom, especially between 2018 and 2022 in just access. Canadian tech was recognized. We no longer felt like we had to hide our Canadianness when we were selling to American customers. All of that was starting to change. It's a really powerful moment. And now that continues. Even though, you know, markets will soften this and that, it continues. And so, you know, I do a lot of work with some of the entrepreneurs where, you know, either I have an investment or I just got introduced to somebody and I'm just helping them out. And Celine, I can't tell you the number of times I see this and it bugs me so much. And it goes back to the sitting in the uncomfortable and taking the time to do the uncomfortable work. Because what happens is, every entrepreneur enjoys a little bit of success. They get two, three million, four million from VCs. VCs say, oh, we have a playbook. We're gonna give you the playbook. Problem is the VC playbook is the Lego structure. It's not personalized to your business. It has no understanding of the tensions you operate within what your customers need, right? They give you this Lego block and you're supposed to now somehow fit it in. But you're not a Lego block, especially as a young growing company, you're anything but Lego. And so, now you apply it because you start getting lazy. The moment you have money, you think that was the goal. I needed money, not building a sustainable, profitable business, you think raising money was your goal, and now suddenly you hire a bunch of people, you get a fancy office, and six months later you go, I don't know why this is not working, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months. And as this goes on, the amount of equity as an entrepreneur that you're building is depleting, the equity your employees are building is depleting. Now you have to go raise more money. And it's this vicious cycle. And no matter how many times I talk about this with people, people keep doing the same thing again. And I think a large part of it is driven by the fact that there's certainly not enough conversation happening about what that early upfront uncomfortable work is.
Yep.
That needs to happen, right? Whether it's work to be done on how to be a good leader or how to establish good leadership practices, work to be done on establishing product market fit and the effort it takes, it's not gonna just happen by hiring a bunch of people and throwing a bunch of darts at the board.
Nope. Our growth comes from being uncomfortable. You know, most of it does, fortunately or unfortunately, whether it's individually or as a collective, discomfort is where we grow, and our brains, which are wonderful things, but they wanna keep us safe and discomfort does not feel safe to our brains. So we just, naturally, our inclination is to avoid discomfort as opposed to being able to recognize, oh, this isn't comfortable. What is the opportunity inside of this? What can I do with this? How can I step into it? Because you can step into it and still feel safe if you're doing it intentionally. And to make that-
I love that.
Right. To make that shift to being intentional about stepping in in a way that still feels safe, is it whole different ball game, but man, do people do not, they just do not, let's avoid anything uncomfortable.
That's such an important point because, you know, I was just doing some work yesterday with an entrepreneur and the entire discussion for an hour was about how to get them to literally intentionally step in. I didn't articulate it that way, so I love the way you articulated that. But to intentionally step into that environment and do the difficult work, because they don't yet know the answer to the question, what is the tension your customer is experiencing?
Yeah.
They don't know the answer to the question, who are you as a company, and how is it that what they do resolves a part of the tension that their customer experiences? And I was using the insurance plan analogy to say, we weren't selling insurance, we're selling a tech product that did research, but having a customer articulate that helped us realize and gave purpose to who we were.
Absolutely. Absolutely. So before we wrap, I'm gonna ask, 'cause I could talk to you for hours, like truly fascinating conversation. So thank you for taking the time to chat with me today.
Thank you.
And is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanna make sure you speak to or something that you wanna emphasize or kind of leave people with at this point in time?
I think the only thing I would talk about is, you know, I use tensions as a model with a lot of businesses and it's not as complicated as sometimes people think it is. So perhaps the only thing I would say is, you know, try to do three things. If you're an entrepreneur and you're struggling with growth or struggling with figuring out how to solve a problem, just try to do three exercises. The first is think about what is the binary opposites, what is the tension your industry operates within? Classic example, if an industry is going through automation, on the other hand, everything was done manually, there's a tension between automation and manual input, right? So it's very simple. It's not a difficult exercise. You don't need a background in anthropology to do that. Then think about what is the tension your customer experiences, and I'm talking about emotional tension. And then think about how your product sits within the context of that industry tension and the customer tension. And it will transform how you start thinking about your business. That's the only thing I wanted to say is that these tools are not rocket science. You don't have to have a social sciences degree to be able to do them. I think a lot of the times, and I'm sure you experienced this in your work as well, a lot of the times it's just about, you know, putting pen to paper and actually going through the thinking exercise and then you realize, hey, this is not that complicated to do, and in fact a fun exercise for perhaps me to do with my other founders or key colleagues.
Yeah. I love that. I love that. It's very simple, which is always great, very straightforward, and I appreciate you breaking that down 'cause I do think that's important information for the listeners to hear. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me today. This was extremely insightful. I love that we got to talk about anthropology a little bit. It just doesn't happen enough. And sharing your stories in the way that you think about things, it has been very helpful and a very unique perspective that I don't get to hear a lot, so thank you for taking the time today. It's much appreciated.
Thank you so much. No, thank you so much for having me. It was a wonderful conversation. And, you know, just echoing the same sentiment, I'm sure we could talk for hours about some of these topics and it's certainly fascinating. Even before you hit record, there was tons of stuff that we were talking about that was mutually of interest, so thank you again and it's been a real pleasure.
Absolutely, it just means you have to come back again.
Done.
Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.