Design Thinking forces you to break down and test your assumptions. It gets you out of repetitive cycles and allows you to dream big, check in and make changes. It also forces you to slow down--which can be a very good thing!
Today's guest, Tutti Taygerly is an Executive Coach and former Design Leader for companies like Facebook and Disney.
We talk about the mindset and process of design thinking, as well as how it can be helpful for leaders and companies.
We cover:
- how to recognize and name assumptions
- intention setting vs. goal setting
- dreaming big and redefining "failure"
- 50/50 goals
- slowing down to speed up
Here are a couple of great quotes from the episode...
“For all of its bad points, I love the tech industry because of the dreams. People dream big and are willing to fail in tech."
On 50/50 goals: "your aim is to hit 50% of the goals that you set. Some have to be big and hairy enough to ensure you may not meet them. If you hit 100% of them, you’re doing it wrong."
"Goals are like a North Star. You’re going somewhere but you’re not so rigidly and forcefully attached to it that you can’t change course."
Feel free to let us know what you thought about the episode or what you learned.
And, if you enjoyed it, make sure to subscribe (on Apple Podcasts or Spotify) and share it with a friend.
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To learn more about Tutti Taygerly, you can find her online at https://tuttitaygerly.com/. She is also on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter (just search her name). And, you can check out her book at makespacetolead.com.
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(upbeat music)
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- I'm Celine Williams,
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and welcome to the "Leading
Through Crisis" podcast.
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A conversation series exploring resiliency
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and leadership in challenging times.
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My guest today is Tutti Taygerly
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who is an executive leadership coach
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and professional speaker supporting CEOs
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and tech leaders to embrace
their unique leadership style
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to achieve professional impact.
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She's previously spent 22
years as a design leader
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at design firms, start-ups,
and large companies,
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including Disney and Facebook.
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Welcome to the show, Tutti.
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- Thanks so much for having me, Celine.
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I'm excited.
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- I am also excited for multiple reasons
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which I hope we get into
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'cause I'm a big fan of design thinking,
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so I love that you have
this design background.
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- Thanks.
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- Before we even get into that,
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I wanna start with where
I always start, which is,
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when you hear the name of this podcast,
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which is "Leading Through Crisis"
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what comes up for you, or
what does that mean to you?
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- Yeah, and I love words and semantics
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and the origins of it.
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Like there's some parts
of my college major
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where there was linguistics.
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And one of the things about
crisis to me is that, hey,
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it's something that's kind of intense.
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There's some change,
there's some difficulty,
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there's some stuff that's
unexpected and what,
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so, this is a little freaky.
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But what I really love about
it is through all the years
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where I was a design leader
and there was a sense
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of design thinking and problem solving,
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crises are almost design constraints.
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There's something that
happen from the outside
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and you're like, oh
shit, didn't expect that.
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Where did that come from?
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All right, now what do you do about it?
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If there's another ingredient
that you put into the mix,
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how do you leap through this?
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How do you deal with this?
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And the way that I say it,
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it probably sounds so nonchalant and easy,
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but I mean, it's not, like I've,
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I left corporate because
of three big crises
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and in my own personal life.
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And they're like her slamming
you against the wall,
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churning you up, knocking you upside down,
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'cause it's change and
change is hard and brutal.
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And the essence of leading through crisis
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is kind of, hey, keep going,
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knowing that there is an inner
wisdom that will see you out
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through the end, that it'll be fine.
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It's one step at a time.
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And it's, you know, seeing them
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as different design constraints,
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life constraints, world
constraints, hitting you,
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and then continuing to go through,
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go through the process.
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You know, one of the things
I always told my design teams
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and teams I worked with
is, it's trust the process,
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keep on going and the ideas will come.
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It will unfold.
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I think that's a lot of my philosophy
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of leading through crisis.
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- I love all of that.
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And I really wanna emphasize
the importance of trust
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inside of what you said.
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And I know you said trust
the process at the end,
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but I think it is one of the
hardest things we have to do
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when we're in a crisis
of any sort, is trust.
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Whether it's ourselves,
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whether it's that
everything's gonna work out,
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whether it's the people around us.
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It is when we are in
crisis mode and our brain
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is telling us that the sky is falling,
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we struggle to trust.
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And I'm really curious how
you maintain that trust
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when it feels like the sky is falling.
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What do, you know, what
works you to remind yourself
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that trust is, it's about
trusting the process,
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to use your language?
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- Mm hmm, I mean, it's not easy.
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That's it, it is not easy at all.
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So one of, I use two tools really
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to remind myself of this.
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And one is the fact that I've known this
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and done this for years and years, yeah.
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I used to work for the world's top brands
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and they would come to us to be like,
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what is the future of
connected televisions?
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What's the future of autonomous vehicles?
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And starting it was
always like, oh my gosh,
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it's the discovery, it's the kickoff.
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How are we gonna come up
with this brilliant idea
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to help define this company's future?
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And if you've seen
pictures of design thinking
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like the start is a
mess, it's always a big,
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hairy ball of messiness.
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But one of the things that
really helps remember this
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is the grooves of repetition to know
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that this is something that
I've repeated with clients
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and teams over and over
and over again, to be like,
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there is a design process
of design thinking
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and divergence and
convergence and you will get
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to something good.
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So what I tell a lot of my clients is,
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how do you use your history?
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How do you use your grooves and the times
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in your history where you've
overcome and done this
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to realize that, hey, it
will actually work out well,
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it might not feel like it right now,
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but there is the ability
to take a step back
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and make some space to get out of this
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as you were talking about
intense, intense, intense,
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must respond, must act that
just like flight or flight
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or freeze mode where
you're just so jacked up.
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So, a lot of it I talk about
just being able to take space,
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to know that there's periods of time
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where you got to brainstorm
and ideate and come up
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with tons of ideas.
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And there's other times
where you've got to chill.
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You've gotta let it sit,
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gotta go out and take that walk.
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I mean, I surf, get out
into the water and nature,
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take a shower and that's where
some of the brightest ideas
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will come, when you're not forcing
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and fighting and grinding
so hard, which, you know,
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from my experience has been a lot of what,
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at least the world of
tech that I know is about,
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just work harder, grind
harder, do more it's, you know,
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being able to balance and know that there
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is another side to it.
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- Mm, yeah, I think it's definitely,
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listen I think that kind of hustle idea
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is more common everywhere than
I would like to see it be,
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but it's definitely the default
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and it has been the default in tech.
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Hopefully will not be the
future default in tech,
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but it definitely has
been the default in tech,
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whoever works the hardest, works the most,
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keeps pushing and driving is the person
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who's gonna, quote, win.
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And often the only thing
they're winning is burnout
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and exhaustion and not
having the best idea
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'cause they're over
spending their time trying
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to solve a problem.
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- Yep, I mean, I think
if you wanna be okay,
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if you wanna be maybe
parallel to the competitors,
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parallel to your peers,
the execs around you,
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you can hustle and grind and do it.
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And it might work for months
or maybe some years maybe,
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but it is really hard to have
true innovation, breakthrough,
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whatever that new idea
or next direction is,
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without making that space
and making that room,
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making that room to trust.
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And I think so, I mean, I
did that for so many years
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and I'm not gonna say that
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there was anything wrong with it
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'cause it does, that's what the culture
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rewards you for, right?
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We get those gold stars
and those brownie points
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and like the little things
and the little bonuses
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and that's great.
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But I think both for like
true breakthrough success
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externally, and then also let's
say more inner fulfillment,
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satisfaction, contentment
needs that longer view,
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that more trusting view,
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that space to be able to step
out of the grind culture.
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It's a balance, there's
periods where you're gonna
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have to do that but all too often,
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we get stuck like mindless zombies into,
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I don't know what I'm gonna do,
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all right, write down that to-do list.
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I don't know what I'm gonna do.
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Okay, move to my next calendar,
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my next appointment, my next goal.
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What's my OKR?
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All right, let's hit all that.
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And as I said, there's
nothing wrong with that
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until sometimes it doesn't work anymore
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because it leads to burn out and overwhelm
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and that's typically where
people are looking to change.
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And that's the crisis too.
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That's the time where it opens
up people to make a change.
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- It's interesting 'cause
what you just said reminds me
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of there's two things that
came up for me right away.
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And the first one is that
it's often times people,
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when they're in that cycle,
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they're just jumping from
crisis, to crisis, to crisis,
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to crisis, like that
becomes, so that loop is,
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and I appreciate that it's
rewarded in many cultures
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and you're right, it's not that it's,
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it's not wrong, it's just
that for most people,
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at a certain point they hit a wall
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with how much they can keep in that loop.
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And that is, the more we
can prevent that, you know,
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that would be ideal.
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So to me, the first
thing I heard was like,
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it's like jumping from crisis to crisis.
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And as we know, from as pretty
much everyone has experienced
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in the past couple of
years, that gets tiring
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even if you're not person who
is having to solve a problem.
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And the other thing that I
found really interesting,
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in what you just said
is it reminded me of,
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and I'm gonna ask how, you know,
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for your perspective on this,
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but it reminds me of what you were saying
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about design thinking,
which is that it's that,
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that divergence and convergence.
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So it's like all of, you
know, a lot is happening
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and then we don't want a lot to happen.
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So it's that, it's finding the balance
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and it's really interesting
'cause what I hear is like,
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there's such a parallel
to even what you said
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about design thinking
and finding a balance
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and when you're in that loop,
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that's what you're not doing.
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- Mm hmm, absolutely, I love this analogy
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'cause now I'm an executive
leader coach, leadership coach.
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And I coach people like a designer
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because what's really great is knowing
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that it's in flow and it's in a shift
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from the divergence to the
convergence and oftentimes
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when we're in a crisis, we're so stuck,
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we can't see the way out.
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We're just like, okay, that's
bad, that's bad, that's bad.
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I'm paralyzed, I don't know what to do.
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Or you just kind of get into
this zombie busy-ness mode.
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What's wonderful, I think
of using design thinking
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to help solve and help
people lead their way
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out of crises is, it's
really about perspective.
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How do you brainstorm and
create and find, I don't know,
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00:10:13,849 --> 00:10:15,681
50 different solutions to this
240
00:10:15,681 --> 00:10:20,681
of which all 50 are likely to be stupid,
241
00:10:21,810 --> 00:10:24,620
dumb, bad ideas, but that's not the point.
242
00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:27,690
The point is that you start
to find different perspectives
243
00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:30,750
and that can lead you to
many, many different things.
244
00:10:30,750 --> 00:10:33,073
And then you converge on
a choice and on a focus.
245
00:10:33,073 --> 00:10:36,330
And that's a lot of what
I do with my clients.
246
00:10:36,330 --> 00:10:40,087
It's so hard or it's so hard
to see the way out yourself,
247
00:10:40,087 --> 00:10:42,145
'cause you are stuck in your own loops
248
00:10:42,145 --> 00:10:45,240
and self-sabotaging
behaviors and the intensity
249
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,780
of your emotions that
it can take someone else
250
00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:49,160
to help hold the space to be like,
251
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,080
all right, let's brainstorm.
252
00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:53,930
Let's take the time to see things
253
00:10:53,930 --> 00:10:56,050
from someone else's perspective.
254
00:10:56,050 --> 00:10:57,040
Let's be curious.
255
00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,700
Let's be crazy, let's be stupid,
256
00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:03,102
let's be funny giving yourself
permission to do that.
257
00:11:03,102 --> 00:11:05,610
And that's the wild open divergence
258
00:11:05,610 --> 00:11:08,145
and then, yeah, there'll
be a time when we focus
259
00:11:08,145 --> 00:11:09,960
and converge and you know,
260
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,167
the other analogy I love you making
261
00:11:11,167 --> 00:11:14,586
is there is the time of busy-ness
and swirl and craziness.
262
00:11:14,586 --> 00:11:18,540
And then there's gotta be
some of the quiet time.
263
00:11:18,540 --> 00:11:21,191
And that can be like in a 10 minute space,
264
00:11:21,191 --> 00:11:23,080
or it can be in a 10 month space
265
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,853
and it just keep it continual motion.
266
00:11:27,810 --> 00:11:30,130
- Yeah, so for those who are unfamiliar
267
00:11:30,130 --> 00:11:32,370
with design thinking and what, you know,
268
00:11:32,370 --> 00:11:33,705
we said it a few times and I mean,
269
00:11:33,705 --> 00:11:35,480
I'll fully own that I started it.
270
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,230
And I was like, I love design thinking,
271
00:11:37,230 --> 00:11:40,186
I think is just such a beautiful
way of approaching things.
272
00:11:40,186 --> 00:11:45,186
But for those who are unfamiliar, how,
273
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,597
what would be like a quick two minute,
274
00:11:51,597 --> 00:11:54,579
here's what design is in a nutshell
275
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from an actual designer, not someone
276
00:11:56,860 --> 00:11:58,683
who just likes the concept of it, i.e me,
277
00:11:58,683 --> 00:12:00,434
so how would you put it,
278
00:12:00,434 --> 00:12:03,430
as someone who has used this in a real,
279
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:05,100
in a design environment and has this
280
00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:08,963
in a very practical way as
part of your background?
281
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,050
- So the designers are problem solvers.
282
00:12:12,050 --> 00:12:15,576
There is a particular brief,
a thing you wanna solve,
283
00:12:15,576 --> 00:12:18,200
and it might be, you know,
284
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:23,200
what is an app that allows you to book
285
00:12:24,030 --> 00:12:28,030
your booster COVID shot
in a way that's universal?
286
00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:31,930
Like this is, call that a
problem, or it might be wow,
287
00:12:31,930 --> 00:12:36,070
I feel so stuck and
frustrated with my job.
288
00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:37,580
Do I wanna stay doing this?
289
00:12:37,580 --> 00:12:40,500
Do I wanna aim towards
that next promotion?
290
00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:42,930
Do I wanna join the great resignation
291
00:12:42,930 --> 00:12:44,410
and jump to another job?
292
00:12:44,410 --> 00:12:46,184
Or do we just wanna quit and become a,
293
00:12:46,184 --> 00:12:48,500
start a startup or run my own business?
294
00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:51,470
So let's just say you start with a thing,
295
00:12:51,470 --> 00:12:53,615
a problem statement and design thinking
296
00:12:53,615 --> 00:12:57,415
is a perspective on solving that problem
297
00:12:57,415 --> 00:13:00,645
that follows a particular design process.
298
00:13:00,645 --> 00:13:05,645
Oftentimes it starts with
research, which is understanding,
299
00:13:06,390 --> 00:13:09,450
asking the questions, being curious,
300
00:13:09,450 --> 00:13:10,890
understanding the motivations
301
00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:13,190
and spending a lot of time
asking the five why's.
302
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:14,900
Because if you ask
someone the question why,
303
00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:17,208
it's probably gonna be, you
know pretty surface level,
304
00:13:17,208 --> 00:13:19,750
why are you unhappy with your job?
305
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:21,610
What do you wanna be
different with your job?
306
00:13:21,610 --> 00:13:23,870
Be like, well, you know,
I don't like my boss,
307
00:13:23,870 --> 00:13:26,480
my boss just doesn't see
the brilliance that I have.
308
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:27,960
And then we'll, you know, but why?
309
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,101
Well, she doesn't have trust in me.
310
00:13:30,101 --> 00:13:32,520
Okay, but why?
311
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,610
Well, you know, she doesn't know me.
312
00:13:34,610 --> 00:13:36,750
She's been my fifth boss in five years
313
00:13:36,750 --> 00:13:38,510
and we haven't had the time
to develop the relationship
314
00:13:38,510 --> 00:13:39,860
and I don't have trust in,
315
00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:41,510
I don't know if I have trust
in this company anymore.
316
00:13:41,510 --> 00:13:42,820
I'm just giving you these examples
317
00:13:42,820 --> 00:13:45,130
but the more you ask
why, the deeper you go
318
00:13:45,130 --> 00:13:47,440
and that's a little bit
of a process of research,
319
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,200
whether that's into yourself
or whether that's into,
320
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,760
okay, you know, who are
these people looking
321
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:53,840
for booster shots?
322
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,942
What is the driving motivation?
323
00:13:55,942 --> 00:13:57,803
What's the driving motivation between,
324
00:13:57,803 --> 00:14:00,630
behind say the company making the app
325
00:14:00,630 --> 00:14:03,053
or the people like who might use it.
326
00:14:03,053 --> 00:14:05,610
So it starts with research
and then from there,
327
00:14:05,610 --> 00:14:07,535
it's the process we've
talked about of divergence
328
00:14:07,535 --> 00:14:09,663
and convergence, which is like, all right,
329
00:14:09,663 --> 00:14:11,103
when we start to understand the problems
330
00:14:11,103 --> 00:14:12,629
that people are having,
331
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:15,770
what are some solutions that
you might come to solve them?
332
00:14:15,770 --> 00:14:17,526
So brainstorming widely to be like, oh,
333
00:14:17,526 --> 00:14:18,359
what about this?
334
00:14:18,359 --> 00:14:19,192
What about this?
335
00:14:19,192 --> 00:14:20,132
What about this?
336
00:14:20,132 --> 00:14:21,280
What about this?
337
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,450
And then what I love about it the most
338
00:14:23,450 --> 00:14:25,382
is then narrowing to be like, all right,
339
00:14:25,382 --> 00:14:27,692
we just came up with 50 different ideas
340
00:14:27,692 --> 00:14:30,010
about why this, what
this person might wanna
341
00:14:30,010 --> 00:14:31,357
do about their job next.
342
00:14:31,357 --> 00:14:34,530
We don't actually know what's right.
343
00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:35,710
'Cause you know, sometimes we're stuck
344
00:14:35,710 --> 00:14:38,270
'cause we don't know what to do.
345
00:14:38,270 --> 00:14:39,810
And one of the things you just feel,
346
00:14:39,810 --> 00:14:42,190
if you pick a direction or you
pick a couple of directions
347
00:14:42,190 --> 00:14:44,350
and you narrow, and in design thinking,
348
00:14:44,350 --> 00:14:45,310
in digital product design,
349
00:14:45,310 --> 00:14:47,570
you might do some prototypes,
you might've do some sketches,
350
00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:49,740
you might build a little
thing and just use it
351
00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:51,490
and see what happens.
352
00:14:51,490 --> 00:14:53,217
In coaching, it's often
running experiments,
353
00:14:53,217 --> 00:14:56,180
the taking a little
action, be like, all right,
354
00:14:56,180 --> 00:14:58,120
go talk to a couple of
places, see what that is.
355
00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,739
Go have this conversation with your boss.
356
00:14:59,739 --> 00:15:02,670
You know, maybe you can
build trust with your boss
357
00:15:02,670 --> 00:15:05,550
by playing with some vulnerability,
358
00:15:05,550 --> 00:15:07,061
playing with asking for what you want.
359
00:15:07,061 --> 00:15:10,170
And I realize I'm jumping
between different metaphors,
360
00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:14,198
but it's using this process of curiosity
361
00:15:14,198 --> 00:15:18,010
and problem solving and
widening the perspective
362
00:15:18,010 --> 00:15:20,430
and narrowing into
choices to solve problems.
363
00:15:20,430 --> 00:15:24,650
Whether it's a product
problem in coming up
364
00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:26,300
with a particular product
in Silicon Valley,
365
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:28,008
or whether it's working
with people in their lives.
366
00:15:28,008 --> 00:15:30,300
Was that clear enough?
367
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:31,633
I went a lot different places.
368
00:15:31,633 --> 00:15:33,080
- No, I mean, I think it was.
369
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,865
And I think it's, I appreciate
370
00:15:36,865 --> 00:15:41,400
the insight and the examples you gave
371
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,370
'cause they're gonna resonate
for different listeners
372
00:15:43,370 --> 00:15:47,814
in different ways and I think that it is,
373
00:15:47,814 --> 00:15:48,890
you know, one of the,
374
00:15:48,890 --> 00:15:50,940
so I'll tell you one of
the reasons that I love it
375
00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:54,380
and I use it in my work
all the time without people
376
00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:57,045
knowing I use it cause
I'm sneaky like that.
377
00:15:57,045 --> 00:15:58,510
- Sneaky is good.
378
00:15:58,510 --> 00:16:01,070
- Right, I think in this
case, I think it's good.
379
00:16:01,070 --> 00:16:03,561
I'm not always, I'm not
saying it's always good,
380
00:16:03,561 --> 00:16:04,951
(speakers laughing)
381
00:16:04,951 --> 00:16:07,670
but I do, I use it all the time
382
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:12,670
because I think it is inherently designed,
383
00:16:12,830 --> 00:16:17,144
designed thinking is designed
to break down assumptions
384
00:16:17,144 --> 00:16:22,144
and gather data and information
385
00:16:22,556 --> 00:16:24,806
that is not just what we assume.
386
00:16:24,806 --> 00:16:29,140
And I think we have created many systems
387
00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:31,963
that are inherently based
on assumptions, not on data.
388
00:16:31,963 --> 00:16:34,676
And one of the reasons
that I love design thinking
389
00:16:34,676 --> 00:16:38,600
is that it's like, I've been a broken,
390
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,880
I feel like I'm a broken record
all the time where I'm like,
391
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:42,299
we need to stop making
assumptions, get to,
392
00:16:42,299 --> 00:16:44,450
what is the fact here?
393
00:16:44,450 --> 00:16:47,060
What is the actual data or information?
394
00:16:47,060 --> 00:16:51,290
In many cases, it's mostly
someone assuming even
395
00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:53,430
in terms of physical products,
396
00:16:53,430 --> 00:16:55,492
what someone else wants
or what the problem is
397
00:16:55,492 --> 00:16:57,740
or what the thing is.
398
00:16:57,740 --> 00:16:59,830
And to me that's always been,
399
00:16:59,830 --> 00:17:02,410
I know it's not necessarily
the point of design thinking,
400
00:17:02,410 --> 00:17:04,513
but it is one of the greatest advantages
401
00:17:04,513 --> 00:17:06,434
of using design thinking in anything is,
402
00:17:06,434 --> 00:17:11,434
it almost forces you in the
great way of being forced
403
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:14,867
to break down those assumptions.
404
00:17:14,867 --> 00:17:16,575
- Mm hmm, and to test them.
405
00:17:16,575 --> 00:17:19,256
Sure, you can have them as an assumption
406
00:17:19,256 --> 00:17:21,260
but have that as a hypothesis
407
00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:22,227
and now go out and do something
408
00:17:22,227 --> 00:17:23,960
to see if that's true or not.
409
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,440
- That's right, that
continuous iteration, right?
410
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:27,609
Like take an idea and let's test it
411
00:17:27,609 --> 00:17:31,320
and if it's wrong, let's
move on to something else.
412
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,005
And if we get data that
confirms it, great,
413
00:17:33,005 --> 00:17:34,940
then we start from there.
414
00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:35,920
But I agree, I love that,
415
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,778
the scientific method idea of like,
416
00:17:37,778 --> 00:17:39,515
let's test all these hypotheses.
417
00:17:39,515 --> 00:17:42,790
Man, I wish people
thought about that outside
418
00:17:42,790 --> 00:17:43,930
of high school science 'cause I feel
419
00:17:43,930 --> 00:17:46,377
like most people stop at that point.
420
00:17:46,377 --> 00:17:49,660
- I mean the design process
and the scientific method,
421
00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:53,310
it's the same and I think
there's something powerful
422
00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:56,010
in even naming the assumptions.
423
00:17:56,010 --> 00:17:57,978
You know, my boss doesn't trust me
424
00:17:57,978 --> 00:18:00,360
because she didn't promote me.
425
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,800
Like that's an assumption
which so many people
426
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,110
are afraid to say that loud
427
00:18:04,110 --> 00:18:06,240
'cause it's kind of like, shit I failed.
428
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,790
You know, the next assumption is,
429
00:18:07,790 --> 00:18:09,621
that's because I'm terrible at my job.
430
00:18:09,621 --> 00:18:13,075
And then you just start,
similar to the five why's
431
00:18:13,075 --> 00:18:15,050
going deeper and digging deeper
432
00:18:15,050 --> 00:18:16,140
and then being like, all right,
433
00:18:16,140 --> 00:18:17,957
you know, let's see if this is true.
434
00:18:17,957 --> 00:18:19,550
One of the questions I ask my clients is,
435
00:18:19,550 --> 00:18:20,940
is this fact or fiction?
436
00:18:20,940 --> 00:18:23,753
And you know, it's never one or the other.
437
00:18:23,753 --> 00:18:25,162
It's something in between.
438
00:18:25,162 --> 00:18:26,901
- Well, I think I love,
439
00:18:26,901 --> 00:18:29,580
so I'm gonna go down a
rabbit hole with you on this
440
00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:31,210
for a second, because I think I'm gonna
441
00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:32,543
just call it right now.
442
00:18:32,543 --> 00:18:34,527
I was having a conversation
with someone yesterday
443
00:18:34,527 --> 00:18:38,350
about this, where I had,
and this was a friend.
444
00:18:38,350 --> 00:18:39,890
This was not like a coaching conversation.
445
00:18:39,890 --> 00:18:40,834
And I had asked the question of,
446
00:18:40,834 --> 00:18:45,810
is this, is what you're
saying in assumption?
447
00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:48,240
Like, is this, or is there a fact here?
448
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,363
No, no, no, it's fact.
449
00:18:50,363 --> 00:18:52,390
Great, so tell me what the fact is
450
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:56,616
and what the answer was, was
fact plus assumption, right?
451
00:18:56,616 --> 00:18:59,490
So it was fact and feelings,
not just the facts.
452
00:18:59,490 --> 00:19:04,377
So it was this person, I can't remember,
453
00:19:04,377 --> 00:19:07,520
like this person responded
to something I said
454
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,860
in this way because blah, blah, blah.
455
00:19:09,860 --> 00:19:11,310
So it was the fact was, yes,
456
00:19:11,310 --> 00:19:12,623
the person obviously responded to you.
457
00:19:12,623 --> 00:19:14,577
That is a fact, the person said,
458
00:19:14,577 --> 00:19:16,902
I don't like that idea or whatever it is,
459
00:19:16,902 --> 00:19:19,368
because is all fiction.
460
00:19:19,368 --> 00:19:21,292
That is all your story and the assumption
461
00:19:21,292 --> 00:19:25,070
and the really interesting
thing to me inside of this,
462
00:19:25,070 --> 00:19:26,330
and this is why I was like,
463
00:19:26,330 --> 00:19:27,620
I'm gonna take you on a rabbit hole,
464
00:19:27,620 --> 00:19:31,750
is I think there's absolutely
power in naming assumptions.
465
00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:35,005
And I think my experience
has been many people
466
00:19:35,005 --> 00:19:39,320
don't even recognize an assumption
467
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,285
when they're making it
because in their mind,
468
00:19:41,285 --> 00:19:44,009
the story is the fact.
469
00:19:44,009 --> 00:19:47,714
- Bingo, I think you're completely right.
470
00:19:47,714 --> 00:19:50,940
It's almost if we circle
back to an earlier theme,
471
00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:53,513
it's this zombie mode.
472
00:19:53,513 --> 00:19:56,550
You don't recognize
you're stuck in this cult
473
00:19:56,550 --> 00:19:58,530
of busy-ness and achievement.
474
00:19:58,530 --> 00:20:01,470
And you don't realize that
you have these mind loops
475
00:20:01,470 --> 00:20:04,610
and assumptions until someone forces you
476
00:20:04,610 --> 00:20:07,300
to kind of say it out loud,
like you did with your friend.
477
00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:09,880
And sometimes I think the
best parts are sometimes
478
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,300
when someone says that out
loud, they just start laughing.
479
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:16,040
'Cause once it's named and
in the space, they're like,
480
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,732
yeah, I guess, no, maybe my boss isn't
481
00:20:18,732 --> 00:20:21,478
about to fire me tomorrow
482
00:20:21,478 --> 00:20:25,360
because of the way I messed
up that presentation.
483
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,810
Yeah, there's something
just lovely about taking
484
00:20:28,810 --> 00:20:33,010
it to the extremes, make it ludicrous
485
00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:34,530
and name them out loud
486
00:20:34,530 --> 00:20:36,490
and that kind of loses a
little bit of the power
487
00:20:36,490 --> 00:20:38,760
and brings the assumptions
out into the light.
488
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,380
- Yeah, I agree with that.
489
00:20:41,380 --> 00:20:42,789
And I think the other thing that happens
490
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:45,579
in those cases is if you say
something like that out loud,
491
00:20:45,579 --> 00:20:47,700
there's I think there's a few things,
492
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:49,813
but if you say my boss was gonna fire me
493
00:20:49,813 --> 00:20:51,780
because of the mistake I made,
494
00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:54,280
and then you don't think it's absurd
495
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,420
when you say it out loud
and you think, oh shit,
496
00:20:57,420 --> 00:20:59,449
this might actually be real.
497
00:20:59,449 --> 00:21:03,640
It then gives you the power
to go ask a question about it.
498
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,155
It gives you the power to
go find out if that's true.
499
00:21:07,155 --> 00:21:10,255
And if there's something
that can be done about it,
500
00:21:10,255 --> 00:21:13,363
instead of waiting for something that,
501
00:21:13,363 --> 00:21:14,875
instead of just being the recipient
502
00:21:14,875 --> 00:21:16,470
of whatever could happen, right?
503
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:20,160
So it actually allows you
to do something about it
504
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,306
as opposed to just running
that loop of a story.
505
00:21:23,306 --> 00:21:27,600
- Yeah, so looping back,
506
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,730
even to a theme you were
talking about earlier,
507
00:21:29,730 --> 00:21:30,660
we were talking about trust,
508
00:21:30,660 --> 00:21:32,681
trust the process and trusting yourself.
509
00:21:32,681 --> 00:21:36,165
One of the stories that I tell a lot,
510
00:21:36,165 --> 00:21:39,160
and I write about in my
book that kind of pulls
511
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,530
this design thinking
and leadership threads
512
00:21:41,530 --> 00:21:43,600
into learnings and frameworks
513
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,217
is I remember the first time
I was fired and you know,
514
00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:51,730
I was working so hard.
515
00:21:51,730 --> 00:21:53,300
I had two kids under five.
516
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:56,060
I live in San Francisco and I physically
517
00:21:56,060 --> 00:21:57,750
had an apartment in Seattle.
518
00:21:57,750 --> 00:22:00,229
I mean, this is not sustainable.
519
00:22:00,229 --> 00:22:03,260
This is super woman, supermom.
520
00:22:03,260 --> 00:22:08,100
I had two jobs and I remember
the incident happened
521
00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:10,540
we'd just gotten back
from the first vacation
522
00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:12,731
I'd taken in two years,
like four days in Mexico
523
00:22:12,731 --> 00:22:15,200
and my kids had a stomach bug
and they were throwing up.
524
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:16,487
- Oh no.
525
00:22:16,487 --> 00:22:18,000
- I'm in a video conference,
526
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,820
I was told that not
only was I being fired,
527
00:22:20,820 --> 00:22:22,740
I had to shut down an entire office
528
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:25,985
and let go of a number
of people in an office
529
00:22:25,985 --> 00:22:29,444
that I had built up and it was horrific.
530
00:22:29,444 --> 00:22:32,910
And I hadn't had the wisdom
to think about it beforehand,
531
00:22:32,910 --> 00:22:35,842
but I remember just that
first feeling was like relief.
532
00:22:35,842 --> 00:22:40,842
Thank goodness, 'cause I hadn't
known it was not working.
533
00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:44,810
I had known that I was not liking this,
534
00:22:44,810 --> 00:22:46,086
but I just had that such armor
535
00:22:46,086 --> 00:22:50,420
and that automatic zombie
mode of do it, do it, do it,
536
00:22:50,420 --> 00:22:52,010
make it work, make it work, grind,
537
00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:54,737
just put in more hours and it'll work.
538
00:22:54,737 --> 00:22:56,870
And I think the reason why, you know,
539
00:22:56,870 --> 00:23:00,376
we were talking about firings
and thinking of the worst case
540
00:23:00,376 --> 00:23:03,850
I just remember that
feeling of just such relief.
541
00:23:03,850 --> 00:23:05,950
And that's kind of going
back to helping people
542
00:23:05,950 --> 00:23:07,992
listen to the trust
543
00:23:07,992 --> 00:23:10,459
and of course it was fine, right?
544
00:23:10,459 --> 00:23:11,292
Of course it was fine.
545
00:23:11,292 --> 00:23:13,731
It was the perfect thing to happen.
546
00:23:13,731 --> 00:23:16,813
But I think what's really
awesome is before that happening,
547
00:23:16,813 --> 00:23:20,240
helping people envision it,
think about it and being like,
548
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,930
well, you know, is that the worst thing?
549
00:23:21,930 --> 00:23:25,060
Is that something that
maybe would be a blessing,
550
00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:26,782
would be a great way of this situation.
551
00:23:26,782 --> 00:23:30,020
And how do you, as you mentioned Celine,
552
00:23:30,020 --> 00:23:31,240
how do you take control over it?
553
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,700
How do you take some actions?
554
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:34,743
How do you make some changes?
555
00:23:36,420 --> 00:23:41,420
- Yeah, I think that in
and of itself is very,
556
00:23:42,078 --> 00:23:46,320
is a very scary prospect
for people step into
557
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,010
taking control and responsibility.
558
00:23:48,010 --> 00:23:51,450
When I think if you're
on that hamster wheel
559
00:23:51,450 --> 00:23:54,153
and if you're in that loop all the time,
560
00:23:54,153 --> 00:23:59,153
sometimes it's easier to
not take the responsibility
561
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,240
or the control of a situation
of what you're thinking
562
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,612
of what the reality is,
563
00:24:05,612 --> 00:24:08,700
because it's just another
thing that puts you,
564
00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:10,300
it can feel in the moment.
565
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:12,118
I'm not saying it is, but
can feel in that moment
566
00:24:12,118 --> 00:24:13,690
like it's just gonna be
another thing that keeps me
567
00:24:13,690 --> 00:24:16,361
on this hamster wheel, it keeps
me in this loop and cycle.
568
00:24:16,361 --> 00:24:18,537
- Completely.
569
00:24:18,537 --> 00:24:22,068
- And I think, and this
is just my opinion,
570
00:24:22,068 --> 00:24:24,330
I think the reality is
that when we do that,
571
00:24:24,330 --> 00:24:26,380
that's actually the thing that
gets us off the hamster wheel
572
00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:27,400
and out of that loop
573
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,050
but it never feels that
way when we're in it.
574
00:24:30,050 --> 00:24:31,944
- Mm hm, yeah, and I also think
575
00:24:31,944 --> 00:24:34,256
that's what a crisis helps you do.
576
00:24:34,256 --> 00:24:37,108
It helps shake you out of that pattern.
577
00:24:37,108 --> 00:24:38,300
It's like whatever,
578
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:40,995
a wrecking ball that knocks
the hamster wheel over.
579
00:24:40,995 --> 00:24:44,540
And it is so hard,
580
00:24:44,540 --> 00:24:46,390
but sometimes it can be even harder to see
581
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:48,703
that for our ourselves, you know,
582
00:24:49,649 --> 00:24:52,200
be trapped into careers for 20, 30 years.
583
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,020
I've worked with like three times CEOs
584
00:24:55,020 --> 00:24:57,160
who have had two successful exits
585
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,149
and they're on their third company.
586
00:24:59,149 --> 00:25:00,120
And they're like, is this all there is?
587
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:03,180
I'm like, well, let's, what's the pattern?
588
00:25:03,180 --> 00:25:04,960
What's the hamster wheel, right?
589
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,370
And what's the desire, what's the dream?
590
00:25:08,370 --> 00:25:11,080
What's the, what is it
in terms of the life
591
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,480
and career you wanna create now
592
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,180
that's gonna make it different?
593
00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:16,160
And I think to your point, it's like,
594
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,420
you can get so stuck in
that overwhelm and busy
595
00:25:18,420 --> 00:25:20,438
and I know I was there for so many years
596
00:25:20,438 --> 00:25:23,177
that until you start to make the space
597
00:25:23,177 --> 00:25:26,170
and the breathing room,
just like little bitty bits
598
00:25:26,170 --> 00:25:28,450
of spaces to trust yourself
599
00:25:28,450 --> 00:25:30,190
and find a little bit
of this inner wisdom.
600
00:25:30,190 --> 00:25:33,665
It's so hard 'cause it
feels like another thing.
601
00:25:33,665 --> 00:25:37,530
You don't have room, you're
juggling 20 plates already.
602
00:25:37,530 --> 00:25:41,080
- Well, and we societally, not maybe you
603
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,336
and I Tutti necessarily,
but we as a society
604
00:25:43,336 --> 00:25:48,336
tend to reward achievement and
reward what things look like.
605
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:51,112
And when we are-
606
00:25:51,112 --> 00:25:51,945
- Of course.
607
00:25:51,945 --> 00:25:54,680
- Right, when that's what
we're looking for the reward
608
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,120
and we know that's gonna be the reward,
609
00:25:56,120 --> 00:26:00,660
then we are a three time CEO
who has maybe never taken
610
00:26:00,660 --> 00:26:05,080
the step back to say, what is
it that I want out of this?
611
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,500
What is it, what is my ultimate goal?
612
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:09,820
Is it to just build businesses and sell?
613
00:26:09,820 --> 00:26:12,140
Which is fine, by the
way, if that is your goal,
614
00:26:12,140 --> 00:26:13,408
if that is what you want, great,
615
00:26:13,408 --> 00:26:17,871
like there's no right
or wrong in any of this.
616
00:26:17,871 --> 00:26:21,930
But if they've never taken
the moment, you know,
617
00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:24,040
to think about what that is,
618
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,738
if you hadn't taken the
time to step back and say,
619
00:26:26,738 --> 00:26:30,410
what do I want my life,
business, work, family,
620
00:26:30,410 --> 00:26:32,390
whatever to look like?
621
00:26:32,390 --> 00:26:35,040
Then how do we ever get
off that hamster wheel?
622
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,560
- Yup, yeah 'cause and I'm gonna say,
623
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:38,970
I know I'm guilty of it.
624
00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:41,210
I love those shiny gold stars.
625
00:26:41,210 --> 00:26:43,801
They feel great to get them, right?
626
00:26:43,801 --> 00:26:46,559
That's what we're
conditioned to do as kids.
627
00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:49,597
That's what, that is the education system
628
00:26:49,597 --> 00:26:50,830
that we're brought up in,
629
00:26:50,830 --> 00:26:53,020
that's the competitive education system
630
00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:54,940
and like the workplace system.
631
00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:55,954
Come on, performance reviews.
632
00:26:55,954 --> 00:26:59,380
This is what it is, it of course.
633
00:26:59,380 --> 00:27:01,940
And I'm not diminishing
it 'cause it's tied
634
00:27:01,940 --> 00:27:05,130
to financial reward, it's tied to status,
635
00:27:05,130 --> 00:27:06,944
it's tied to external validation
636
00:27:06,944 --> 00:27:10,740
and there's nothing wrong
with that, but that's not,
637
00:27:10,740 --> 00:27:13,930
I think it's the time
and the space to think,
638
00:27:13,930 --> 00:27:15,470
does that match what I really want?
639
00:27:15,470 --> 00:27:17,100
And did it change?
640
00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:19,210
Maybe I wanted that through my twenties
641
00:27:19,210 --> 00:27:22,074
to be like a raging
workaholic and to like build
642
00:27:22,074 --> 00:27:25,048
that name and career, but
maybe something changed,
643
00:27:25,048 --> 00:27:27,360
maybe something changed in terms of
644
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,878
a different life priority
or a career switch
645
00:27:30,878 --> 00:27:34,300
or something else entirely or a pandemic.
646
00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:37,940
- Yeah, yeah and I love that.
647
00:27:37,940 --> 00:27:39,880
And I think we don't
talk about that enough.
648
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,290
And I really appreciate
you bringing that up
649
00:27:41,290 --> 00:27:44,280
is this idea that we ideally,
650
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,280
we are revisiting what that
looks like for ourselves
651
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,830
on a regular basis and not judging
652
00:27:52,830 --> 00:27:54,130
what we're doing in our forties,
653
00:27:54,130 --> 00:27:56,490
by what we wanted in our
twenties and continuing
654
00:27:56,490 --> 00:27:57,760
to do the thing in our forties,
655
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,010
because we've never spent the time
656
00:27:59,010 --> 00:28:02,970
to think about it since we
just jumped on a hamster wheel.
657
00:28:02,970 --> 00:28:04,880
I think inside of what you said there is,
658
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,398
it's really important because it is about,
659
00:28:06,398 --> 00:28:08,943
I think the, what is missing from a lot of
660
00:28:08,943 --> 00:28:11,590
what I see out in the world
661
00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:13,467
and I'm guessing what you
see is that intentionality
662
00:28:13,467 --> 00:28:18,134
of asking the question and
saying, what is this for me?
663
00:28:18,134 --> 00:28:19,270
- Mm hmm, absolutely.
664
00:28:19,270 --> 00:28:24,270
I love the word intentionality
665
00:28:24,707 --> 00:28:27,700
because I think I forgot about
it when you were asking me
666
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:31,190
to define design process because so much
667
00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:33,062
in design thinking, so
much of it is knowing
668
00:28:33,062 --> 00:28:36,840
what you want the outcome
to be, this problem,
669
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,020
this thing that, this thing
you're trying to solve,
670
00:28:39,020 --> 00:28:41,560
it's like, what's it gonna feel like
671
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:42,640
once you actually get it?
672
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,100
What's the experience gonna be?
673
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:45,658
What's your life gonna be like
674
00:28:45,658 --> 00:28:48,320
the day after you get that promotion?
675
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,580
Or what's it gonna feel like for people
676
00:28:50,580 --> 00:28:52,500
to use this app and be
able to find that place
677
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:53,950
that they can actually make an appointment
678
00:28:53,950 --> 00:28:55,303
for their booster shot?
679
00:28:55,303 --> 00:28:58,760
I think the secret to
like that design thinking
680
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,770
is to really be able to feel and emote
681
00:29:01,770 --> 00:29:05,800
and understand how it is you
want people or yourself to feel
682
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,140
when you get to that stage.
683
00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:08,993
And that's the intentionality behind it
684
00:29:08,993 --> 00:29:12,434
because so often
overachievers, hyper achievers,
685
00:29:12,434 --> 00:29:15,410
like you get that goal,
yay, I got that promotion.
686
00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:16,870
Yay, I launched my book.
687
00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:18,076
And what do you do the next day?
688
00:29:18,076 --> 00:29:19,840
What's the next goal?
689
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:20,673
What's the next goal?
690
00:29:20,673 --> 00:29:23,733
You just keep moving those damn goalposts
691
00:29:23,733 --> 00:29:26,670
when you're on that hamster wheel.
692
00:29:26,670 --> 00:29:29,000
- Yeah, I could not agree with that more.
693
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,667
And I think the other thing
that happens is we can,
694
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:36,610
and I'm gonna say this as someone
695
00:29:36,610 --> 00:29:40,360
who fully acknowledges that
I hate a lot of the systems
696
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,220
that are set up around
goals for this reason.
697
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:43,940
And I'm gonna call it right now.
698
00:29:43,940 --> 00:29:46,846
This is my bias, I am
owning my bias inside this,
699
00:29:46,846 --> 00:29:51,270
but the reason I hate it
is because it isn't really
700
00:29:51,270 --> 00:29:54,298
about setting an intention
and then trusting
701
00:29:54,298 --> 00:29:57,526
that you'll get there,
whatever it looks like
702
00:29:57,526 --> 00:30:01,647
or that the intention
is a feeling rather than
703
00:30:01,647 --> 00:30:03,942
this very specific way that everything
704
00:30:03,942 --> 00:30:07,287
has to be, which then always forces us to,
705
00:30:07,287 --> 00:30:09,780
you know, we always end
up moving that goalpost
706
00:30:09,780 --> 00:30:13,583
out and out because we're
not, I think it's very,
707
00:30:13,583 --> 00:30:15,403
we're so focused on goals in that way
708
00:30:15,403 --> 00:30:16,993
that it's really hard for
people to even understand
709
00:30:16,993 --> 00:30:21,993
what setting an intention is and also
710
00:30:23,134 --> 00:30:28,134
how to release the
attachment to that being
711
00:30:28,350 --> 00:30:30,320
a specific thing.
712
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,480
And I think that inside
of what you just said,
713
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,764
what I heard was like
that intention matters,
714
00:30:37,764 --> 00:30:42,220
but the attachment of the
how, or the specifics of it,
715
00:30:42,220 --> 00:30:43,750
which is so hard for us,
716
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:45,240
which I think is why we ended up moving,
717
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,240
one of the reasons we ended
up moving the goalposts,
718
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,990
once we hit something, that
is such a nebulous thing
719
00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:56,990
for people to grasp and to understand
720
00:30:57,928 --> 00:30:59,786
how to use for themselves.
721
00:30:59,786 --> 00:31:04,610
- Yeah, now I, if I be
a little controversial,
722
00:31:04,610 --> 00:31:07,260
I love goal-setting, love it.
723
00:31:07,260 --> 00:31:08,407
- Listen, do not agree with me
724
00:31:08,407 --> 00:31:10,003
'cause I love when
people disagree with me,
725
00:31:10,003 --> 00:31:11,866
it's my greatest joy.
726
00:31:11,866 --> 00:31:12,699
(Celine laughing)
727
00:31:12,699 --> 00:31:14,470
- Well, here's what I love about it.
728
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:17,280
And there's plenty of
ways like in this system
729
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,300
where it's completely over abused.
730
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:20,526
I get it.
731
00:31:20,526 --> 00:31:22,010
You know, I worked at
Facebook for many years
732
00:31:22,010 --> 00:31:24,130
and there's a sense of like
metrics, metrics, metrics,
733
00:31:24,130 --> 00:31:25,949
and an advertising based company.
734
00:31:25,949 --> 00:31:28,709
But what I love about corporate goals
735
00:31:28,709 --> 00:31:32,830
from a tech perspective
is the notion of setting
736
00:31:32,830 --> 00:31:35,640
50/50 goals, which is, hey,
737
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,170
you're gonna set a bunch of goals
738
00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:42,170
but the goal of the goal is
to try and hit 50% of them.
739
00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:46,363
What that means is that some
of them have got to be so wild
740
00:31:46,363 --> 00:31:49,030
and out there that if
you actually achieved
741
00:31:49,030 --> 00:31:50,170
a hundred percent of your goals,
742
00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:52,650
you're kind of doing it wrong
743
00:31:52,650 --> 00:31:54,310
'cause you were playing it too safe
744
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:56,850
or you're like, okay, I know
that thing's achievable.
745
00:31:56,850 --> 00:31:59,190
So I love the notion from
tech and a lot of startups
746
00:31:59,190 --> 00:32:01,230
and companies do that,
is to set 50/50 goals
747
00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:03,849
'cause that means they
need to be big enough
748
00:32:03,849 --> 00:32:06,202
and hairy enough and just
like ridiculous enough
749
00:32:06,202 --> 00:32:08,620
to kind of add that part of it.
750
00:32:08,620 --> 00:32:10,467
And then the other thing
that I love about it is,
751
00:32:10,467 --> 00:32:13,580
and of course, this is much harder to do
752
00:32:13,580 --> 00:32:16,740
if you're a corporation and
you have OKRs and you know,
753
00:32:16,740 --> 00:32:20,100
you're beholden to meeting
these revenue goals.
754
00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:23,201
But what I love about some
of the more out there goals,
755
00:32:23,201 --> 00:32:25,460
especially for personal development,
756
00:32:25,460 --> 00:32:26,900
for what people really want in their lives
757
00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:29,553
and careers is having the
ability to change your mind.
758
00:32:29,553 --> 00:32:32,620
And I think that's where it
goes back to the intentionality.
759
00:32:32,620 --> 00:32:35,120
And to what you're talking
about is just this attachment.
760
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,447
I love goals, it's like a north star.
761
00:32:37,447 --> 00:32:38,970
This is where you should go
762
00:32:38,970 --> 00:32:41,180
but it's the checking in, it's like,
763
00:32:41,180 --> 00:32:42,600
is that's still the right intention,
764
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:43,890
is that still what I want?
765
00:32:43,890 --> 00:32:47,166
It was a 50/50 so maybe that's not that.
766
00:32:47,166 --> 00:32:48,810
And you get some of them, but it's,
767
00:32:48,810 --> 00:32:50,280
I think we're talking
about the same thing.
768
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,660
It's like concept of
you're going somewhere,
769
00:32:52,660 --> 00:32:54,950
but don't be so a hundred percent rigidly,
770
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:57,270
forcefully attached to it.
771
00:32:57,270 --> 00:32:59,290
- I have not heard of 50/50 goals.
772
00:32:59,290 --> 00:33:03,026
And I, that lines up way more with
773
00:33:03,026 --> 00:33:05,270
what I think goals should be truly.
774
00:33:05,270 --> 00:33:06,350
So I appreciate you bringing it up
775
00:33:06,350 --> 00:33:09,540
because I think that
having a direction matters,
776
00:33:09,540 --> 00:33:11,821
it does, having a purpose,
777
00:33:11,821 --> 00:33:14,930
having you're heading in this direction,
778
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:18,047
whether you get there on
car, on bike, on foot,
779
00:33:18,047 --> 00:33:19,790
whether there's someone
in the car with you,
780
00:33:19,790 --> 00:33:22,460
all of that stuff, you'll figure that out.
781
00:33:22,460 --> 00:33:26,185
But if you know you're
going to this destination,
782
00:33:26,185 --> 00:33:30,250
then you can get started
whatever that looks like.
783
00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:32,727
So I do fully appreciate that.
784
00:33:32,727 --> 00:33:37,640
And I think when most,
you know, definitely I,
785
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,370
and this is why I'm saying,
I appreciate the 50/50.
786
00:33:39,370 --> 00:33:42,386
I definitely have not
thought of it that way
787
00:33:42,386 --> 00:33:46,831
because we kind of grow up,
788
00:33:46,831 --> 00:33:48,870
you set a goal, you achieve the goal.
789
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:51,667
If you don't, and if you
don't achieve the goal.
790
00:33:51,667 --> 00:33:52,500
- You fail.
791
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:53,510
If you didn't get it, you have a failure.
792
00:33:53,510 --> 00:33:55,604
- That's right, so you've,
793
00:33:55,604 --> 00:33:57,170
which then people start shaming themselves
794
00:33:57,170 --> 00:33:58,658
or they feel guilty or
whatever their process
795
00:33:58,658 --> 00:34:00,040
is inside of it.
796
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,332
And I love the 50/50
because it really leans into
797
00:34:04,332 --> 00:34:07,890
you're not gonna, there's gonna,
798
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:09,520
some things are gonna work,
799
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,840
some things are not gonna
work, all of that is okay,
800
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,130
because there's always
going to be unknowns.
801
00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:16,510
There's always going to be change.
802
00:34:16,510 --> 00:34:17,877
There's always going to be crisis.
803
00:34:17,877 --> 00:34:21,050
We are not living in a
static world, or, you know,
804
00:34:21,050 --> 00:34:21,940
I joke all the time.
805
00:34:21,940 --> 00:34:23,210
I say this to my clients all the time.
806
00:34:23,210 --> 00:34:25,920
I am the master of strong
opinions, loosely held.
807
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,970
I will advocate and I mean,
808
00:34:27,970 --> 00:34:29,471
you just saw it happen with goals.
809
00:34:29,471 --> 00:34:32,760
I mean, you look like I will
be like, this is my opinion.
810
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:33,920
Then someone gives me better information.
811
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,860
I'm like, actually that's great.
812
00:34:35,860 --> 00:34:37,180
That is way more,
813
00:34:37,180 --> 00:34:41,420
I don't ever wanna be so
attached to something being
814
00:34:41,420 --> 00:34:43,868
so rigid that I'm inflexible.
815
00:34:43,868 --> 00:34:46,864
And I think that's what goals reinforce
816
00:34:46,864 --> 00:34:49,140
in the traditional way
of thinking about it.
817
00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:50,200
And that's what I don't like.
818
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,687
So I appreciate your perspective
819
00:34:51,687 --> 00:34:56,687
'cause you flipped my opinion
truly on where I think goals,
820
00:34:57,265 --> 00:35:00,763
I think that 50/50 goals, I
think that's a wonderful thing.
821
00:35:01,881 --> 00:35:02,940
- Yeah, I love it when I hear it.
822
00:35:02,940 --> 00:35:04,333
And I think that's a lot of the magic of,
823
00:35:04,333 --> 00:35:07,973
well, I know we've talked
a lot about these systems
824
00:35:07,973 --> 00:35:10,309
and these companies and these corporations
825
00:35:10,309 --> 00:35:13,412
and this like Silicon
Valley cult of busy-ness.
826
00:35:13,412 --> 00:35:18,412
But the reason why I love being
in this space is the dreams,
827
00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:21,321
the dreams and like the
possibility are so big
828
00:35:21,321 --> 00:35:25,410
and yes, it can come
with a lot of bad shit
829
00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:27,320
and toxic masculinity and like command
830
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,150
and control leadership, but
there's still that possibility.
831
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:32,540
And that's what I love
about the 50/50 goals.
832
00:35:32,540 --> 00:35:34,030
- Yeah, I think that's,
833
00:35:34,030 --> 00:35:37,790
I very much appreciate
you sharing that concept
834
00:35:37,790 --> 00:35:39,410
'cause I truly had never heard of it
835
00:35:39,410 --> 00:35:40,603
and I think it's really powerful
836
00:35:40,603 --> 00:35:44,429
and I'm gonna look up more
about it 'cause I love that.
837
00:35:44,429 --> 00:35:45,610
- Awesome, I'm so glad.
838
00:35:45,610 --> 00:35:46,860
- Yeah, thank you.
839
00:35:46,860 --> 00:35:49,000
I want to, we've talked
about a lot of stuff,
840
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,870
which is generally how these go because
841
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:51,945
I enjoy having conversations.
842
00:35:51,945 --> 00:35:54,410
So I appreciate you being able,
843
00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:56,862
being willing to play
with me inside of this.
844
00:35:56,862 --> 00:35:59,940
And before we wrap up, I
always like to ask my guests,
845
00:35:59,940 --> 00:36:01,910
is there anything that we didn't get to
846
00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:04,860
that you wanna make sure we talk about
847
00:36:04,860 --> 00:36:05,880
before we wrap this up?
848
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,336
Or is there something that we spoke about
849
00:36:07,336 --> 00:36:08,680
that perhaps you're like,
850
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,780
I really wanna just circle
back and emphasize this
851
00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:12,949
or leave your listeners with this thought,
852
00:36:12,949 --> 00:36:14,483
anything inside of that?
853
00:36:18,501 --> 00:36:22,550
- I think for me, one of
the most profound paths
854
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:24,993
towards entrepreneurship and writing
855
00:36:24,993 --> 00:36:29,564
and thinking has been really
this concept of making space.
856
00:36:29,564 --> 00:36:33,800
And I wanna leave your listeners
857
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,090
with one of my favorite quotes.
858
00:36:35,090 --> 00:36:38,790
It's by Mike Vance, who is the Dean of,
859
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:40,830
I think Dean of Creative
Thinking at Disney
860
00:36:40,830 --> 00:36:42,870
for a lot of their great innovations
861
00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:45,750
and his quote is,
slowing down is sometimes
862
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:47,543
the best way to speed up.
863
00:36:48,750 --> 00:36:50,010
And I love that because you know,
864
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:51,580
it's a little bit of an aphorism.
865
00:36:51,580 --> 00:36:53,540
It's not immediately
obvious, but it's a lot,
866
00:36:53,540 --> 00:36:56,630
it hits a lot of the themes
of what we've talked about,
867
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:59,252
that you can't recognize where you are,
868
00:36:59,252 --> 00:37:01,460
you can't trust yourself,
trust the process,
869
00:37:01,460 --> 00:37:04,664
if you're continually
on this hamster wheel
870
00:37:04,664 --> 00:37:07,763
of achievement and gold
stars and busy-ness,
871
00:37:07,763 --> 00:37:12,270
it's that slowing down
gives you that perspective
872
00:37:12,270 --> 00:37:14,880
to be able to break patterns,
873
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,190
to be able to be curious,
874
00:37:16,190 --> 00:37:19,312
to be able to set intentionality
and so many of us,
875
00:37:19,312 --> 00:37:21,080
and I still do this.
876
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,200
So many of us just think you just speed up
877
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:24,110
and grind, grind, grind.
878
00:37:24,110 --> 00:37:25,570
So I just wanted to leave with that quote,
879
00:37:25,570 --> 00:37:28,120
slowing down is sometimes
the best way to speed up.
880
00:37:28,980 --> 00:37:29,813
- Thank you for that.
881
00:37:29,813 --> 00:37:33,820
I think it's a beautiful quote and I will,
882
00:37:33,820 --> 00:37:36,480
I think it's a great
reminder for people right now
883
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,229
as well is that taking that
step back and slowing down
884
00:37:39,229 --> 00:37:42,454
doesn't mean that you're
not gonna make progress
885
00:37:42,454 --> 00:37:45,987
or not gonna move forward,
you're not gonna build momentum.
886
00:37:45,987 --> 00:37:47,770
It can actually sometimes be the thing
887
00:37:47,770 --> 00:37:50,480
that builds that momentum
and moves you forward
888
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:51,920
and makes the progress.
889
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,521
So I very much appreciate that.
890
00:37:53,521 --> 00:37:58,521
So for all of our listeners,
this will be in the show notes,
891
00:37:58,620 --> 00:38:02,321
but they can find you
online at tuttitaygerly.com.
892
00:38:02,321 --> 00:38:04,041
- That's right.
893
00:38:04,041 --> 00:38:07,860
- And believe you mentioned
you have a book as well.
894
00:38:07,860 --> 00:38:09,875
- Yeah, a lot of this thinking and writing
895
00:38:09,875 --> 00:38:12,320
and work that I do with my clients,
896
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:13,717
I pulled together into a book
897
00:38:13,717 --> 00:38:17,721
that has the design thinking framework,
898
00:38:17,721 --> 00:38:22,721
has exercises, has inquiries
to really thought provoking
899
00:38:22,740 --> 00:38:25,450
inquiries and the book's
called "Make Space to Lead"
900
00:38:25,450 --> 00:38:28,140
and you can find it at
makespacetolead.com.
901
00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:30,318
- Perfect, we'll put that
in the show notes as well.
902
00:38:30,318 --> 00:38:33,013
Tutti thank you for taking
the time to chat with me.
903
00:38:33,013 --> 00:38:36,472
It really lovely getting to know you
904
00:38:36,472 --> 00:38:39,510
and I'm sure my listeners
are gonna love this.
905
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:42,469
It was a really powerful
conversation, so thank you.
906
00:38:42,469 --> 00:38:43,723
- Thank you, it was so much fun.
907
00:38:43,723 --> 00:38:45,790
Didn't know it was
gonna go this direction,
908
00:38:45,790 --> 00:38:47,616
but that's what makes it fun.
909
00:38:47,616 --> 00:38:50,340
- Absolutely, always keep them guessing.
910
00:38:50,340 --> 00:38:51,780
Thanks for joining me today on
911
00:38:51,780 --> 00:38:53,429
the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast.
912
00:38:53,429 --> 00:38:54,808
If you enjoyed this conversation,
913
00:38:54,808 --> 00:38:57,640
please take a minute to rate and review us
914
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,340
on your podcast app.
915
00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:00,770
If you're interested in learning more
916
00:39:00,770 --> 00:39:02,853
about any of our guests,
you can find us online
917
00:39:02,853 --> 00:39:05,745
at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.
918
00:39:05,745 --> 00:39:07,661
(cheerful music)