In this inspiring and in-depth conversation, I do a deep dive with licensed clinical psychologist Dr. J.J. Kelly into the topic of emotional health. We discuss how to manage and regulate your emotions, how to understand and acknowledge what you feel, how to enhance relationships with others and yourself, and what real and authentic self-care practices look like. Dr. Kelly explains the importance of treating yourself with respect, kindness, positive regard and shares some life-changing practices to learn these skills. She also discusses mental health awareness, mindfulness, secrets of self-love, self-appreciation, self-validation, and emotional intelligence.
Dr. J.J. Kelly is a licensed clinical psychologist and emotional intelligence coach who specializes in Teens & Young Adults, Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), and Joy. In this inspiring and in-depth conversation, we explore the realities of emotional health in today’s world. We discuss how to manage and regulate your emotions, how to understand and acknowledge what you feel, how to enhance relationships with others and yourself, and what real and authentic self-care practices look like. Dr. J.J. Kelly also talks about mental health awareness, mindfulness, secrets of self-love, self-appreciation, self-validation, and emotional intelligence.
Dr. Kelly was born in the Midwest but has practiced in Berkeley, CA for the last 16 years. She started her company, UnorthoDocs, Inc. as a punk alternative to traditional psychotherapy and mental health practices that favor group process, mentorship, peer-coaching, community outreach, laughter & love. Dr. Kelly is the author of number 1 Amazon bestseller "Holy Sh*t, My Kid Is Cutting!: The Complete Plan To Stop Self-Harm", and is working on her follow-up book "The Gifted 'Misfit': The Young Folx Guide To Unlocking Your Superpowers". J.J. is a proud resident of Oakland, California.
Find more about Dr. Kelly’s work here: https://www.drjjkelly.com/
Connect with her on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jennifer.kelly174/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjjkelly/
Find her on Twitter: @DRJJKellyPsyD1
- [Narrator] Welcome to Leading Through Crisis, the conversation series exploring the idea of leadership in challenging times.
- Welcome to Leading Through Crisis, I'm Celine Williams and I'm here today with Dr. JJ Kelly who is amazing and I'm really excited for this conversation for so many reasons. But Dr. Kelly has been teaching skillsets from Dialectical Behavioral Therapy since 2004 and she's acutely aware of how teaching mindfulness skills, distress tolerance skills, emotional regulation, emotion regulation skills. There we go. And interpersonal effectiveness skills, is needed to lead during this crisis and beyond. So full bias, we were having a bit of a discussion before so I'm extra, extra excited about this, but I do want to say thank you so much for joining. I cannot wait to get into this with you.
- I'm really excited too.
- I want to start because we were talking about this, but tell me about dialectical behavioral therapy. Dialectical behavior therapy, I think a lot of people have probably never even heard of it.
- Yeah. And why would they? Although, sort of my dream that everybody knows what it is and how to do it too. Well Marsha Linehan is the founder of this quite... She's an academic and a clinician, which almost never happens. It's like one or the other. But she took Thich Nhat Hanh's "Miracle of Mindfulness" for the first two modules of skills and the distress tolerance skills. And then the other side of it is cognitive behavioral therapy, the emotion regulation and the interpersonal effectiveness. So dialectics, like I was saying earlier, two seemingly opposing things existing at the same time. So my whole world now is a Venn diagram. And anything, you know, if you allow yourself the space to look at life in all its complexity, kind of everything is a dialectic. We push things into black, white, some sort of conjured certainty. Because to live in the gray causes anxiety because it's unknown. And so what I try to help people realize is it's all gray. That's the only reality that's real. And because of our anxiety of the unknown, we push it to a pole. And we know that black and white thinking as it's called, it spikes depression, anxiety and all the disorders that go with that. So learn to manage your emotions, regulate your emotions and live in the reality of the gray. So that's basically DBT. Zen mindfulness meets Cognitive Behavior Therapy.
- I acknowledged this when it was just you and I on the call, but I said I'm very biased towards this. I did not know about this specifically. I've heard of it, but I don't know a ton about it. So this is interesting, but I'm constantly pushing it back against people when it comes to black and white thinking. It is like my default is like no one is right or wrong, nothing is, you know. There's all shades of what is best. There's lots of shades of what we know and you know where we are. So I always, the thing that I sort of interpret, I'm not saying this is right by any stretch, but when people get into that place, of black or white thinking, it feels like it's driven from a need to be safe, to feel safe.
- It's anxiety driven for sure. Yeah. But the safe thing is sort of like buzz. The world's not safe. I don't actually safe spaces, shit like that. I don't think that's necessarily the most effective way to look at it. Like to require of your environment that it's safe. I don't think it's that realistic. I think it's more important to build a resilience and a skillset for dealing with the complexity of conflict.
- Right. It's interesting cause it's not, we really societally do a terrible job of doing that, of helping--
- Whoa, no kidding. Oh my God. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. But you know, there's work to be done we are working to change that.
- I was telling JJ beforehand something that I was dealing with, even as someone who leans into living in the gray and leans into there not being a right or wrong or black or white. And I want to reiterate this for our listeners because you had some great insights, but I think it also is a way of showing some of the skills that you're talking about that we're not taught otherwise or people don't know. We don't know what to do with them. So I was saying that, I was talking to a mutual friend of ours yesterday and she asked how I was doing. And I had said that I'm actually doing like pretty well. I feel like I'm doing quite well. And I felt like an asshole for saying that. And JJ very quickly and kindly was like, "Asshole? Feeling like an asshole is not a feeling. So let's really name it." And we can talk about naming feelings as part of this, but I feel guilty like there's, despite the fact that I can recognize that there can be suffering in the world and people who are struggling right now.
- Yes.
- And it is okay that I am not one of those people. And my world I work from home already, I'm quarantined with my cats and have delicious food and I like to cook and like you know, I can work out all of these things. These things can be true at the same time.
- Totally. Totally. Yes.
- But even for someone who can afford those, I still felt that asshole guilt.
- Yes. Yes. So it's funny cause... I don't think I have a marker here. It's funny because that is the exact example that I use when I'm teaching. The very basics of mindfulness is I feel like or that... It's usually you are an asshole.
- Right .
- In all those couples therapy. Okay, you are an asshole. Okay. God it's so funny how many times I've written this on a board. So I feel like or that you are an asshole. The basics is if you can replace the word feel with the word think and the sentence still works, it's a thought, it's not a feeling. That's one.
- That's amazing. First of all, that is amazing.
- I know. I know. A lot of people don't know this.
- No, I love it.
- we haven't taught them. Because there's this weird like, "Oh I'm the doctor, I'm the shrink. "Come to me and pay me for this secret "information that cost 200 K to learn." Fuck that, I just don't agree with that. So the tip offs are, after the word feel, if there's a like or a that you're on your way to a thought, automatically. The word that comes after the word feel has to be an emotion word. Happy, sad, angry, guilty.
- Right, right.
- How that works, that's mindfulness right there. Is just the separation of thoughts to feelings, because we validate all feelings but we sure as hell don't validate all thoughts.
- Right.
- When we're anxious, think of all the crazy shit we've already thought generated from the anxiety of the pandemic. Like not everything we think is factual, yikes! If you can separate the thoughts from the feelings and you see, "Oh my God, that was crazy, "crazy, crazy, Whoa." And they're coming in fast and hot. Then if you can recognize that and ask yourself, what am I feeling right now that's generating the frequency, duration, intensity, of all those thoughts? Oh my gosh, I'm afraid. I'm scared right now. That automatically will regulate that emotion, just a little bit, sometimes a lot of it. So naming emotions is skill number two, this thing. And then name the emotions as much as possible. Out loud even has a stronger impact. I feel afraid, now we're starting to regulate and then you can make more mindful choices instead of those reactive impulsive ones that come out of fear without the mindfulness that end up biting us in the ass later, causing messes for later. But back to your guilt piece. So as I was saying before I think intellectually, you probably don't see anything wrong with doing well.
- No.
- I consider it white privilege or privilege in general and to acknowledge that I think is important on a lot of levels.
- Yes.
- One of which is to be able to have enough distance from those thoughts to regulate the guilt. So how do we figure that out? Well, in DBT they talk about, she talks about justified and unjustified guilt. So justified guilt is when you do something that goes against your values. Well yeah, that's justified guilt. So what do you do about it when you catch that? Well, if you're real with yourself and don't bullshit yourself you go, "Oh, I feel guilty cause, "that was shitty or a mistake or whatever." And then you go repair the transgression. You say, "Sorry." You maybe make up for it in some way and then you let it go. You don't sit there in like a narci shame spiral. You let that shit go. But it's very different if it's unjustified guilt. So if you didn't do anything, like in your case. If you didn't do anything that violated your values. Then by definition, your definition, your own values, not what I say. It's unjustified guilt and what you do for unjustified guilt is a hell of a lot more fun. Which is you do the thing that causes the unjustified guilt. You do it over and over again to build your tolerance to that unjustified guilt. That is a hilarious thing to coach people through. Is do the thing more, what? What do the thing that makes me feel some form of uncomfortable, more? Why the hell would I do that? Because it builds your tolerance to the thing that doesn't even make any sense to you according to your own values. You want to make it go extinct by exposing yourself to the thing. It's the same way people get over fear of snakes or flying or whatever. Step toward it in bits to build your tolerance to it. Flooding, exposure, that kind of thing.
- I love that. When you said that to me earlier, I'm like, "Oh, we're talking about that." Because I think that it feels counter intuitive to do that. Right? Like it feels like you'd be like, well, why would I do that thing that makes me feel a certain way that I don't want to feel?
- Right. Which is almost always some form of fear.
- Yes, not surprising. But I loved, I have to say that in the world of justified guilt, which I know is not what we were talking about. But I love that in that world you apologize and make reparations and then let it go.
- Yes.
- And I think one, people tend to be good at apologizing, saying the words, "I'm sorry." Overall, not everyone. But I think we--
- You would think so, I'm not sure... That's much more optimistic than I am about it.
- Well, to be fair--
- The words I'm sorry oughta come outta your mouth.
- Yes. So, this is where my optimism stops. I think people say, I'm sorry fairly often. I do not think most people consider reparations part of an apology or part of getting through the guilt at all. And I think that people really struggle with the letting go. And I think it's probably because they're not doing the reparations. But these are the two things that from my perspective, from what I've seen, those are the two things that people struggle with the most. I have a family member that we used to get in all out fights. It's not someone I have a relationship with anymore because he would say the words, "I'm sorry," and then do the exact same thing again. And then even from on the receiving end, he was totally missing the point.
- Yes.
- In terms of the... I love that you said all of these three things together cause it's not just one, to release our own guilt.
- I have like a formula that's not DBT, but that I teach for a decent apology. What I call eating your shit sandwich with dignity. I believe it to be character building to just do the apology, because then you don't carry shame around with you. It's in the moment, it's quick and painful and then it's done. You're not carrying shame that is gonna create anxiety just in hiding it and then do other shitty things from... That is the epidemic of narcissism that we have right now.
- [Celine] Right, right.
- So I'm sorry the words, I'm sorry. At least implicit commitment to not do this... Making up for it because we're not, even yet. Right. You still did the shitty thing you're saying, "Sorry." Now just to get you into the black, Do something extra and you find that's easy to let it go after that It's much easier just as you said, you do the reparations and then you get to still maintain your dignity.
- Yeah.
- Oh man. We've been talking so much about eating shit sandwiches with dignity this week. Lot of acting out from just a place of anxiety. And my people know how to... They have these skills and they're still making mistakes because we are humans. And because there's so much anxiety just collectively. So it's hard to keep it off you. That's another one of these things I've made up, like the shit sandwich thing. But then, water off a duck's ass. Well that's mindfulness too. Somebody projects onto you and you just, "Nope, that's your shit, that's not... "No, that is not sticking to me." So make your mistake, say sorry, do the reparations move on. Because otherwise it's just anxious self centeredness. There is a point where if you don't let it go, you're just spinning in your own yuck. It's about you at that point.
- Yeah, that totally makes sense.
- You don't say, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry." And like now the other person has to do your emotional labor when you're the one that wronged them in the first place? No, my people have learned, say thank you. Don't burden the person further, say, "Thanks for making that so easy. "Thanks for hearing me. "Thanks for accepting my apology. Whew. "Boy, do I feel calmer now. Thanks." Oftentimes that will enhance a relationship by the way. But we fear it's going to make it worse. Right? We fear that it's going to damage the relationship. Well, newsflash you already did by doing the thing that you did. There is damage, go repair it. Let the person watch you be vulnerable and truthful and real. And that enhances relationships.
- Well, and to what you're saying that you've been talking about this so much. That's you do sorts of things so much this week. There is an opportunity inside of all of this, inside of whatever's coming up and anxiety and some crappy behavior and decisions that people are making as a result, to ultimately enhance these relationships
- Yes. With self and others.
- Yes. I love that and the reason I was smiling, full disclosure is that I was thinking, a lot of times I work with leaders and we talk about giving feedback and we do examples of how to receive feedback. One of the things that whoever's receiving the feedback. And this is all, like the intention is set that this is feedback for the other person to help them. It's not just you saying a thing cause you have a thing that you wanna say.
- Yeah, totally.
- That's not what we're doing. It is like this is to help you be your best self. The person receiving it, they say thank you to every piece of feedback that they get, whether they agree with it or not. Because there is.. It's like what you're saying when you apologize and then you thank someone for making it that easy.
- Yes.
- It's a similar thing, right? Like you've given me something, thank you for making this as easy as possible.
- Yes. That is the most healthy example of feedback I've ever heard. What I usually... Cause there's consent, right? Everyone has agreed that this is the exercise because most people just come at you and be like, "So can I give you some feedback?" And I'm always like, "No." "If I want to hear your opinion, I will ask." Because usually what follows is something really unbridled shitty. Some sort of thing that is a projection of anxiety or some sort of stuffed anger about something else. No thank you, I didn't ask. But that is lovely. I mean that word feedback I'm still like, "Urgh." But that makes me... That sounds super healthy to me.
- Well I appreciate that. But when you were speaking, I was just like, it immediately triggered that thought in me where it's like, "Oh, I love that," Because I teach leaders how to do that and we talk about doing that. And it's so in line with what you're talking about that it brings out the same thing and it does create that and enhances the relationship. And I think that right now, any opportunity we have to enhance relationships that aren't another zoom meeting or that are you know . But to really properly enhance relationships is just a powerful thing more than ever.
- Yes, yes, yes.
- And I wanna talk about, you mentioned the water off a Duck's back and we could do this for like for hours, we're not going to because I recognized that you have a life outside of this, but I do want to talk about the water off a Duck's back because I think there's a lot of people struggling with that right now. Struggling with the amount of information they're getting, struggling with the amount of anxiety they're feeling. From other people, not even their own. If you're empathic at all or considering yourself-- What you're feeling sort of collectively and globally is a lot right now. So when you say, "Water off a Duck's back." Do you have any exercises? Anything that people can do that enables them to be that duck?
- Yeah, there are a lot of skills that address that. But at the heart of DBT and all the work that we do is validation. So even naming your emotion is validation and validation has to come before problem solving. But I think, and you know, most of these are two seemingly opposing things existing in a harmonious way at the same time. But the validation one is linear. Validation has to come before problem solving, or it's a miss. So if you don't validate your emotion, you're going to keep spinning. You're going to keep believing the thoughts your problem solving isn't going to be as effective as if you regulated the emotion by validating it. Now in interpersonal effectiveness, that works with the other person too. So you might validate someone else's anxiety and, not but, and recognize it's not yours and let it go. So that's one way. So you can validate someone else's, you don't have to agree with them by the way, to validate them. Like if you think they're going crazy town on something and don't lie and be like, "Oh, I understand why you're..." Jesus Christ. Just say, "I can see this is making you anxious." That's a truthful statement of validation, that's real. Because even if, people know when you're full of shit, when there's like an unconscious. Even a well-intentioned lie, it doesn't land the way you want it to because it's not real. So you say, "Whoa, I could see that is "really making you anxious." And then you go to problem solving always with... Cause but just wipes out the validation immediately. "I can see you're upset, but..." Nope. Done. You know. And, "Is there anything I can do?" Is this one of those conversations where you wanna vent, or do you want advice from me? Because we don't want to give unsolicited advice, nobody really likes that. So, is this a vent or do you want me to weigh in? Maybe it's built in the weighing in, it's still an and. I can see this as really spinning you out and maybe turn the goddamn TV off.
- [Celine] Right, right.
- You know, if there's already consent, they're coming to you for problem solving. If they ask, the door's wide open now I can say whatever, however. Like let's get real. There is a tipping point where you know that your TV watching of the news is self harm. That's not you getting informed for your own safety. You know inside according your values when it's starting to get ugly, and you just keep going. Cause there's something about human nature that is drawn to the dark sometimes too. So we just like get in the ugly and keep watching the news. Stop. That in DBT is called willful behavior. The opposite of effective. Defined again by your values. So that's one. But what I wanted to say, what's been coming up a lot. Are saying, "Oh but I'm doing all this self care. "I'm gardening, I'm reading, "I'm learning things online." And I'm like, "Whoa, are you validating "your emotions first?" Cause they're like, "Nothing's working. "I'm doing all the self..." Well, it's not self care unless you validate the emotions that are driving the activity. It's just activity then, it's just more do, do, do. That's self-medicating. Right? I want to get away from some emotions, so I'm just going to engage in some activity. There's a way of perverting self-harm too. Like, "Oh, I'm trying to get away from "the fact that I'm scared." No, I'm scared and I'm going to do the skills that I've learned that I know regulate fear. They've worked in the past, breathing three deep abdominal breaths is the start for any one. And then from there it varies by person. You know what? Maybe it's a walk, maybe it's laughing at something. Maybe it's connecting with another human. You know, those problem solving techniques are kind of endless and useless without the validation.
- I think that's really powerful. As someone who is often in my head, I can have a very cerebral approach to things. I recognize that and I think a lot of people can, and I think especially a lot of high-performing type people tend to take that approach first. So I'm going to speak for them, which I shouldn't, but I'm going to and acknowledge that validating the emotion is probably the thing that I am more apt to skip than anything else?
- Oh, totally. That makes you a human being.
- And as you say that, I'm like, "Oh yeah." It's so funny because in every other part of my life, and when I deal with people, I always say, "You can't change anything "until you acknowledge it, which is validation." We're talking about validating feelings. I will talk about acknowledging a situation. Whatever it is based on the--
- [JJ] Yes, yes.
- But it starts with acknowledging and I think it's so real. I love that it came up because I'm like, "Yeah, that is definitely the thing "that I am most likely to skip in a moment." Especially if I'm under pressure or stressed or feel like overwhelmed or whatever the case may be. I'm going to skip that feeling and I'm going to do the thought. I will do the thoughts, I will get stuck up which is then skipping the validating. And I think, I mean, I think there's a lot of takeaways at this point, don't get me wrong, but I think that's a really big takeaway. I think sometimes cerebrally we can come back to it later and be like, "Oh, well I felt this way." It's fine, but it's in the wrong order to your point, it has to come first for it to be effective
- Yes. Yeah. And that requires the vulnerability of being real with yourself.
- Totally.
- And I mean, that's pretty much the core of everything I teach. I think I'm going to name the program, get real. Or if something with the skills of DBT, whatever. Because calling oneself out on their own bullshit is such an advanced skill. That is when you're in alignment where you have the ego strength to do that Laugh at yourself, be like, "Whoa, that is some kind of." "That was not real at all. "I totally just justified avoiding..." And when you can do that and hopefully laugh at yourself at like "How, wow, that is so sneaky of me." "I'm very impressed by "the sophistication of my bullshit." You know, it is funny. So to laugh at it is helpful because it regulates emotion, again. It calms the central nervous system down so you can start to see, what probably is real instead of what we're telling ourselves. And then make a choice which way you want to go with it. Maybe you'd still choose the bullshit route. We do that too. And maybe you choose anything else basically.
- [Celine] Yeah, and I love that--
- There's a psych part in what you were saying, with skipping the validation. We all come from a family system and all family systems encourage certain emotions and discourage certain emotions. And that's just how families work. And so in our development there are certain... Irish-Midwestern, we're fine with anger, we do not do fear, you know? And so yeah, I was always apt to... Sadness too. When I have a cry coming on, Oh my gosh, I'll be so pissy that, "Oh, I guess I got to cry." That's funny that I got pissed off when I actually needed to cry. But the fear thing, it's like, you'll skip over it and just go to the problem solving. Cause you know that's the achiever way to go. And I'm smart, I do... But you know, to go back and look at, "What did my family. What were they cool with?" They don't do it on purpose, it just happens. And so we have to figure that out and marry those two back together. Fear, I mean Christ, I think I was 30 before I was like, "Oh wow, I'm feeling fear." And then I could feel this. Christ, I had been teaching DBT for a year. Now I'm like, "Wow, this shit really works. Woo." So we're all imperfect beings. We make the... I'm the teacher of it, I make mistakes and then I don't tell the docs, the interns, my clients. I'm like, "Oh you are going to love this. "I did this the other day." You know, to get rid of that doctor worship bullshit. I can model eating your shit sandwich with dignity for younger people, and they can now do that for even younger people. That's whats it's about.
- Oh yes. I love that. And I wanna acknowledge this, because I think what you're saying about family structures are designed in such a way where some feelings were okay and some feelings are not okay. And I hear from people more often than not. Weirdly, this comes up a lot where they're like, "I don't even know how to name the feeling." It turns often into like, "I'm fine, I'm not feeling anything."
- Fine
- I'm fine, it's cause they don't even know the words for the feelings. And as soon as you said that, I was like, I'd never made that connection. But immediately I was like, "Oh, I would bet..." My favorite thing, dollars to donuts. Makes no sense, but I still love it. I would bet dollars to donuts that if they were to track back in their family dynamic, that the feelings that they're comfortable saying like, fine but also, I feel happier, I feel excited. Those were all okay feelings to have. Whereas, whatever it is that they don't have words for, they don't know what it is. Those are the ones that it wasn't okay.
- Yes. It's weird to me being from the Midwest and then moving to California, Anger is not okay here. It's like spiritually unevolved or something. I don't think that, I think anger is an emotion that needs to be regulated like any other emotion.
- Sure.
- And particularly as women, anger's the emotion that tells us our boundaries are being crossed. So there's an actual physical safety thing to that. So if we train people out of feeling anger, I think that's really dangerous. And I think it's much more effective to train people to acknowledge it and then regulate it in a healthy way. Voice it in a health. You can be very angry, speak to someone acknowledging your anger, and we do it in steps, in a way that matches your values and you can walk away proud and you can enhance the relationship still. It's so, so important.
- Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And, and so I'm gonna... You may not have an answer for this, I'm gonna ask this question anyways. If someone who is listening or watching this is like, "I think I'm one of those people "that I don't know what all the emotions are "I don't actually know what X, Y, or Z is. "Or how to name it, even to name it." Like literally recognize--
- That's the majority of people in the world.
- So is there a place you would recommend or something where they can just even have a list it? You know what I mean?
- I know exactly what you mean, and I'm glad you asked the question because I wanted to say this before. I get so passionate, that I forget what just happened. My first class with anyone, the first assignment is to Google emotion words. I don't care where it comes from. I don't care if it's in a wheel or in list like people get all frigging perfectionistic about it. It does not matter, because we're gonna go through it anyway because I know there are gonna be some on there that are thoughts that we need to cross out. Like I feel attacked, is not a fucking feeling. Attacked makes an assumption about your intentions, which I can not mindfully do without you confirming it.
- Right.
- People do that shit all the time. I feel attacked, well attacks not a feeling. If you think you're being attacked, how does that make you feel? Scared, angry, like let's do that. But don't tell me what my intentions are. Because a lot of times they're loving in the challenge and then you try to back me off by saying, "I'm attacking you." PS kind of sexist.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- So don't pull that... Link "Mm-mm, mm-mm." That's a bitch please.
- I love this so much.
- I have heard it all. So they make the list, and they come back with it and we go through it. We cross it off. I ask them why, I have them try and find the words. Anger words, fear words, joy words, love words. Cause there are ones in there that are thoughts too. I feel validated. That's one of those that, in the beginning I'll let that one slide. But if you think someone's validating you, how does it make you feel? This is a way to go from the intellectual to the emotional. And please, if you're gonna do this or anybody is gonna do this, when you catch yourself doing a thought instead of feeling, please don't shame yourself for doing that. Now that you know . "Goddammit I did another..." Nope, no, no, no. We don't judge the judgemental stuff either. It's a mistake, we're learning. Just replace it. Find the word, don't get all. Don't get all. No, no self-flagellation, just move on. You're beginner mind. You're learning something new, you're not going to be great at it right out of the gates, that's humility. That's needed. Curiosity, exploration, you know, like do a new thing, be kind to yourself in doing so please. If you would not speak to someone else that way, do not speak to yourself that way. The things that we say to ourselves that we know we would never say to another human, that has to be more in alignment. We cannot speak to ourselves in any way that we'd be horrified to say to another person. It's weird how normalized that is. That is my mission. And when I catch somebody do it, I know it's the tip of the iceberg. Because they're regulating in front of me, cause they know I'm going to go after that. Which means when they're by themselves they're berating. Now I call that verbal cutting. You might not be cutting your skin, but at least, I mean that cutting is because my book is about cutting. But the verbal is like socially sanctioned. It's normalized. That is horrifying to me. That it's allowed, even encouraged. As like a false humility or a way to motivate.
- Yes.
- Horrifying. That the absence of love towards self. You think that might be part of the problem in the world right now?
- Well, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be super open about this. Someone called me out recently on how self-deprecating I am.
- Good friend
- And I was like. Pardon me?
- Good friend.
- [Celine] Yeah, well. No, I guess so. No, but truly like, and I was always in my brain, my overthinking brain. immediately was like, well, that's just a sense of humor. It's just my sense of humor. My dad was--
- Right, right.
- My dad was...
- That's
- Yeah, you know stiff upper lip,
- Yeah totally.
- I was totally twenties. Like self-deprecation is just in my genes. That's what I do, I'm self deprecating.
- Totally.
- And it is a way to help. It is a false sense of humility. It's a way that historically, I'm not saying, I think it's... But I was like, "This is how people connect "then you feel approachable." Because you're downplaying who you are, so they can be like, "Oh, that's an approachable human." Like all of these things are layered in.
- Uh huh.
- And so in what you're saying and the reason I was like, I'll throw the vulnerability hat on is that I don't think that... It took that person calling me out for how self-deprecating I am to recognize that it's actually not a great thing. And I've been very mindful of it since then. Yeah. I mean, I'm way less funny now, but I'm definitely very mindful of it.
- I make fun of myself all the time and it's not eroding my self esteem.
- Well, I think that's and that's what I wanted to touch on really quickly inside what you're saying is that I think that we have some really toxic behaviors of how we talk to ourselves that we hide as things like self-deprecating, which is a certain sense of humor therefore it's fine.
- Totally, totally. But you know inside if you... It sounds like it was habit for you.
- 100%
- Just armor or whatever. I mean Mid-Westerners that's how we show affection as we rip on each other.
- Oh, Hi.
- And I like that I am not giving that up, but you can feel the difference. My dad used to say to us, I grew up with brothers. My dad used to say to us, "It's only funny if both people laugh."
- Yes.
- So that you can't say something horrible to someone and then be like, "Just kidding." And not take responsibility for it. That goes for self too, it seems very, that's a great lesson, good job dad. Thanks for that. And there's that other piece of your relationship with yourself. I'm going to say again, particularly women. That one Downing, which is a skill by the way. Want to one down somebody, to step back to allow them to come forward. That's a skill, as is bullshit by the way. I just want people to know when they're bullshitting, It's a skill, it's not who you are. And a lot of times strategic social skills can get so habitual we don't analyze them anymore and they erode our self esteem without us even knowing it kind of. I make fun of myself a lot but I do not say self-deprecating shit to myself silently or aloud. People using the word stupid, that is a very harmful word. I would like that eliminated. You could call the behavior you engaged in, if you have the ego strength to do that, that can be useful. If you hurt inside when you say it, then don't say it. Body image stuff, all of this. You don't say unkind things to yourself. You can't be the person that's supposed to contribute to the world when you're constantly eroding your own self esteem. You want to be a whole person that likes themselves so that you can contribute, make the world a better place than when before you were here.
- Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really important distinction to make. I think it's important for people to be aware of that, how they're talking to themselves and I love that idea that you can do something stupid without being stupid. I've really simplified that I reckon, but--
- But can't you feel the difference even when you say it as an example?
- Exactly. Yes, yes. And you know, I think that's a really... I love that. I broke it down very simply, but like that distinction of, it's okay to recognize for me or another person that you have done. And it's funny because, feedback to go back to that for a second, my thing that I always tell people is, "You're talking about someone's behavior, "not who they are. "You are never allowed to give feedback on who they are."
- Yeah.
- Only something they've done. So if you apply that to yourself as well, this is how my brain works. So I just aligned them up, but it's like, I have done many stupid things in my life. I have learned lessons from them. Some have turned out fine, some have not. But at no point have I ever thought, "I'm stupid for having done that." And that's a big difference, and I think it's important to acknowledge. It's really interesting that to go back to the idea of this is leading through crisis, I think people are alone more right now than they've ever been, or they're with the same small group of people and stuff like this is going to be coming up. It's like we're doing this right.
- But if you distract from yourself, meaning your emotional experience on the regular and that's taken away, you're just left with self. That freaks people out. That's the whole thing I'm trying to do is instead of being at war with yourself, ordinary, extraordinary, marry those two. Dark, light, marry those two. We all have both sides. Let's embrace the maybe not so awesome stuff too. We're allowed to have flaws, it's cool. I swear too much. Am I working on it? No, not really. So, whatever. But I still am modeling that loving myself flaws and all. That's important and more than self love is just liking yourself. So that you can be by yourself with yourself. The vast majority of people cannot do that. But why not? Because they weren't taught. It's kind of not their fault. Like why isn't this shit taught in schools? In mental health, certainly. Why is this a secret?
- I am so on your side about this. I have gone on long rants in my life about why do we not teach children emotional intelligence from the time they are start at four.
- Yeah.
- Start with mindfulness practices. I have said this multiple times, probably will say this in many of these interviews at some point, but I was lucky in that I went to my first meditation class when I was six years old because my mom dragged me with her.
- Wow.
- Yeah. I mean, listen, there were... I have some stories I'll tell you another time. So I'm gonna, but like that was, I was taken to meditation with my mom once a week, a meditation group, from the time I was six off and on for years. While I didn't know emotional intelligence, I had this weird unintentional introduction to mindfulness, very, very young. And I recognize what that has done for me years later, whether or not I'm in regular practice of meditation doesn't matter. I can center myself and reflect in a very different way. Imagine all children had that, imagine all children understood emotional intelligence and could name emotions in general at the age of six. Imagine, imagine.
- I do all the time.
- I'm very with you in this in terms of the difference it would make if everyone was doing this and it was systemically part of our education system or every organization was making sure people came in, had these skills or every university or whatever it is.
- Yes.
- And so, we are on the same team here for sure. I really appreciate it, and I wanna-
- And I think the field of mental health has to change.
- Yup. Yes.
- Like just... I don't know. I'm trying to offer an alternative, but I think the whole thing has to go and then something like Phoenix from the flame. Because a lot of people pay a lot of money and don't get much.
- So before we wrap this up, I want to talk about this for a second. I was speaking to someone recently who said that they'd been in therapy with the same therapist weekly or every other week, don't quote me on which one it is, for six years. And I was like, "Cool. What do you feel "like you're getting out of it?" And I'm not an opposed to therapy by the way. I think therapy is great,
- If it helps.
- I think talking about stuff Well, this is the thing, like presumably you're going to get to the point, what are you getting out of it basically? And they were like, "We talk about my childhood a lot, "and it feels good to..." And I'm like, "Are you just telling stories about your childhood "over and over again and not? Is it?"
- Who the hell knows? It's two people behind a closed door, it could be anything. And when you think about access to higher education and privilege in its many forms, who becomes the doctor who's never questioned cause they have that doctor title. Plenty of people don't get better. And you know, plenty of doctors don't do the work. So how the hell are they gonna lead? Narcissists leading narcissists? What the, how is that helping? Wanting to be liked. You charge money to get approval about how smart you are. I think that is unethical. And it doesn't help people and it sometimes causes harm, which is supposed to be the number one thing we don't do.
- [Celine] Okay, right. Right.
- I just think, and I don't think it's malicious by any means, it's just faulty from the ground up, in my opinion.
- And I don't disagree with you. I think there's a... I am not a mental health professional obviously, so this is an external lens on it. But I feel like right now people are so focused on normalizing mental health or taking the stigma out of the conversation around mental health.
- Yeah, which is helpful. Yeah.
- And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that by the way. I fully believe that this should be normal. It is okay to be neurologically diverse, whatever that looks like. There's no right or wrong. That's not part of it, there's no black or white. You are not mentally healthy or mentally unhealthy.
- Yes.
- Those are not real, right?
- Right. Sick, know all the answers? Give me a break.
- But as part of like taking the stigma out, I think that focus is so heavily on that, that it's not on, "Hey, systemically. "Are we dealing with the issues "that are creating the stigma "or that are enabling this to continue in this way?"
- Yes. And I think the privacy slash secrecy keeps it unchecked.
- Yes. Yes, totally.
- And I don't like that. I mean that's why I'm so expressive. Like I'm a human being, yes. Am I an expert on the science of human behavior? Yes. And the person in front of me is an expert on them. We have to work together and that means I have to actually listen. You know what I mean? Doctors, psychologists too. Don't listen. Whaat? I Just there's so much ego. There's so much mental illness. The labeling, especially with young people that I work with that come to me so heavily medicated and they have all these diagnosis. Like, "Mm-mm, mm-mm, Nope." Developmentally you 're gonna put, I mean, mm-mm, mm-mm. And drugs do help some people. I'm not saying always, but mm-mm, no there it's too. It's just. Yeah, the medical model find the problem, treat the symptom. That's not a person in front of you. Like what, what's going on at home? How are you feeling? What's scaring you right now?
- Cause they're not really finding the problem, they're finding the symptom and treating the symptom. And what you just talked about is actually trying to find the source of the problem.
- Yeah.
- And that's not what most people are doing.
- Right.
- And PS, not mental health professional, but the same thing still happens in business. People focus on the symptom that they're bringing forward. This is the symptom, we need to fix the symptom. Symptoms, symptoms, symptoms, symptoms. I'm always grateful for my coach training. And I also come from a design thinking background where I'm like, "Cool, we're going to get to that. "But, lets find out what the source of that really is."
- Yeah, and let's see what you're doing right? Where are your strengths? What can we validate that's already effective in the way you deal with the world?
- [Celine] Totally.
- The way I'm playing and capitalizing and enhancing strengths. Perhaps that could be the focus. Here's what you're doing wrong. Here's how you're broken. Here's how I know something you don't know. Gross. I don't like that. I've never liked that. I don't even like calling people patients, like that I think that's not cool.
- We could literally talk for another two hours.
- I know.
- I wanna be mindful of your time. So I know you have an eight week online course at drjjkelly. The link will be underneath of this. It'll be in the show notes here for people to come and see if they're a fit for a class. Whoever's watching if you haven't already seen JJ's amazing, and I highly recommend doing anything that she puts out into this world. This woman is a force to be reckoned with. But before we wrap this up, I do just want to ask. Is there anything that you would like people to take away specifically or something that you want to really emphasize? Because I feel like we've done, There's so many amazing points, but I don't know if there's one that you're like, just this above all else.
- Gosh. I mean the kindness toward self and validation are such fundamental concepts to everything I and we teach. It has to start with treating yourself with a healthy respect and just positive regard. Not as a way of covering up flaws or mistakes. The kindness is in forgiving yourself for the mistakes. And the way to do that is to validate the emotion instead of attaching meaning to just a random thought that's generated by the emotion. That separation of thoughts and feelings as a practice is life changing. Very simple concept needs to be practiced and we can't just talk about it. I can't just teach you and then you don't do it. You listen to it and don't practice. No. So validation of self, emotions, others validation.
- I love that. Thank you.
- Thank you too.
- Thank you for taking the time to chat with me. I adored every second of this, you're amazing.
- This was really fun, thank you.
- Denise Alison. Denisealison.com7-day-challenge. So, the link will be under here and I encourage everyone to sign up. Denise is amazing at what she does. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me, I really appreciate it.
- You're welcome.
- I hope you have an amazing day.
- You too, stay flu free.
- You too. Thank you.
- [Narrator] Thanks for listening to us talk around leadership in challenging times. If you would like to learn more about us or any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca. If you liked the show please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts from.