In this episode, we're talking to Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau about SMARTpower. We also discuss the difference between crisis and complexity, expectations vs agreements, and embodied leadership. If you, like me, can intellectualize your way through just about anything, watch/listen to this episode to connect to your body more.
In this episode of Leading Through Crisis, we're talking to senior executive coach and mediator, Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau about SMARTpower.
We also discuss:
- The difference between managing crisis and complexity
- Expectations vs agreements
- Embodied leadership
- Connection, engagement, and purpose-driven work
"As an embodied leader, people will listen to you in a different way... When we are comfortable in our own body, we can connect with others - even though sometimes we may have something difficult to say."
If you, like me, can intellectualize your way through just about anything, watch/listen to this episode to connect to your body more.
Being present and embodied is your superpower!
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Sylvia is an accredited senior executive coach (EMCC) and accredited mediator (CEDR) with more than 20 years of experience as a coach, trainer and facilitator. Her mission is to adapt leadership to the challenges of today's complex and fast-moving world and to help leaders succeed in this environment. This mission has led her to create the SMART©power method and author the groundbreaking leadership book "Who's in Charge", a book helping leaders increase energy levels, expand and leverage their range of power, and combine success with fulfillment to build a legacy.
Besides her corporate and coaching work, Sylvia is an artist and dancer – experiences that allow her to apply a unique and powerful approach to emotional and body intelligence in her leadership and coaching work.
Learn more at smartpowermethod.com.
Connect with Sylvia on LinkedIn or Facebook.
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times.
My guest today is Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau, leadership expert, executive coach and the founder of the Smart Power Method, a groundbreaking approach for succeeding in today's competitive and volatile world. Welcome, Sylvia.
Thank you. Great to talk to you.
I'm excited to chat with you today for a lot of reasons, and I know we'll get into, you know, some of the work you're doing and what you're up to in the world. But before we do that, I always start with the question that, you know, the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. When you hear that phrase, what does it mean to you or what comes up for you?
Leading Through Crisis immediately got me interested in your podcast, Leading Through Crisis, because there are lots of crises in our world today, and we need to be equipped for that. At the same time, in my experience in the corporate world, oftentimes people believe they're in a crisis when they're just in complexity, in something that is accelerating and that seems difficult. And then they often lose the pedals of their bicycle because they believe they go into crisis mode, and they should rather go into complexity mode or into collaboration mode. So what comes to me is before we go into crisis mode, let's take a deep breath and connect to what is really going on and deal with it in the most appropriate way rather than fly into crisis, where often also we get into command and control, where we think now it's a crisis, someone has to command, someone has to shut down the corridors and decide immediately we can't discuss. And then actually, oftentimes the decisions are not as good as they would be if we had a more reflective stance to it. So, are we really in crisis or are we only in complexity?
I really appreciate that perspective. So, I often say that everyone has a different lens on crisis and crisis is usually just change, that someone has some anxiety or panic or has really decided this is a crisis. But I love what you're saying around crisis is often really complexity and it isn't a true crisis. And I'm saying true crisis. Again, I recognize that crisis is different for different people in different situations. I'm curious from your perspective, how can someone discern when it is crisis versus complexity? I don't know if you may have a story about this, you may have some just in your experience of doing these things, but what are some of the ways that someone might discern those things? Because I guarantee there's people listening going, cool, but how do I know when it's crisis versus complexity?
So, crisis, I would define it as if we do not do something now, and if we don't do the right thing now, something really terrible will happen, like things will go south. Whereas complexity is, this is getting really hard. And we are getting scared because it seems so hard. So, what do we do? And sometimes what I have seen is then people go to, we have to make a decision because this feels so bad to be in this, like, where do we go? What do we do? This is scary. So, any kind of decisions being taken and may not be the right decision. Now it's important at a certain stage, especially when you're the leader to take a decision. So, it doesn't mean like, okay, that we have tons of time. As a leader, you need to take decisions and also not take too much time to do them. But in complexity, often it is necessary to consult because you don't know everything. You don't see everything. So, where there is a benefit to taking a decision rather than no decision, sometimes it seems like courageous to take a decision because we are in crisis, but actually we're not in crisis. We're in complexity. And therefore, we have to really look at the different factors and talk to the different constituencies, the different parties, the different expertise centers to really know where we want to go.
I appreciate you sharing that. I think that is a great way of distinguishing the two and it's broad enough that it's not prescriptive, I guess is a better way of putting it. It's not prescriptive to say this is the way, but you can use that in whatever your situation is to help kind of discern between the two, which I think is often very challenging.
I can give you a personal example.
Please.
Yeah. My first job as a manager was leading a project in a transition country. And I had my project team down there and my project manager, the local manager had many qualities, but he was not very good in writing reports. So, first report came out, it was awful. And I got into panic mode. So, this was my first leadership role, first big project to manage. This was not good, didn't look good. So first I criticized him on the phone. This didn't help of course very much. Then I flew down to the location to help sort things out. I wanted to be very collaborative, but I was too harsh. So, at a certain moment he said, I'm going to quit. So, I was in crisis mode. That was a crisis because it would have been really, really bad to lose him because he had many qualities, which hadn't been using well until now. And I would have had to find a new local program manager, et cetera, et cetera. So I was in a crisis that I needed to resolve there and then. So, I flipped to say, I'm so sorry. I think I did not speak to you in the right way and I'm here to support you. And we got it around. And at the end of two days, we were in each other's arms and had established a real great collaboration. But I was in a moment where I had to really shift gears and do something. I couldn't have like, okay, now let's sit down and talk. I had to do something different from what I had done up until now. So, it's a very small crisis, but it's a crisis as opposed to like, what do we do here? Can we please all discuss?
Right. And I think it's a, as the leader, you recognize I have to shift something-
Yeah.
In this moment, right? I have to, it was, you had the ability to make that shift, to make a different decision, to show up differently, whatever the case is-
Exactly.
In that moment of crisis. And I think that is a really important part of your story. And thank you for sharing that because you can control that part of it, right? Like you control your behavior and recognize that and change something as opposed to, I think what often happens, what I've seen often in crisis is everyone tries to change everything else. They try to, you know, I'm going to, I'm gonna make everything else change. And it's not actually the things in their control that they're looking at shifting.
Oh no, I need to control everything. I need to have the numbers on everything. And then I believe that I'm in control. Whereas I'm actually not in control because there's a lot of things happen, happening that I couldn't possibly control out there.
Yeah, yeah. If only we could control all the things that we want to control all the time. Wouldn't that be a wholly different world. So I'm curious to know a little bit about your story, how you, the work that you're doing now, which is really interesting and I definitely want to get into, how do you get to the work you're doing around the smart power method and, you know, differentiating, you know, this idea of command and control and power and leading in different ways?
There's a lot coming together. I think it's really what you would call my life's work.
I love that.
But I mean, I started to work on, on psychology. Even when I was at uni starting studying political science, I looked into the communications aspect, the collaboration aspects, the systemic aspects of the international system. And then when I started to work in large organizations, I had the opportunity, which I'm very grateful for to kind of study that live to really experience, be part of power, leadership, change, seeing that for instance, the when we are in complexity that the top down leadership often doesn't work because it doesn't achieve engagement and it doesn't achieve to be really bring the best out of people who are already giving their best, like have them go the extra mile. It doesn't really work like that when, when you have like talented knowledgeable people, you have to speak to them. You have to lead them in a different way. What I also saw that often you have in large corporations, you have the silos, departments that have been set up traditionally to control each other and to kind of compete with each other. Not so stupid, but originally like kind of have balance of control, balance of power in organizations. But we've taken it to a degree where then they impede each other from, from doing a good job, actually. I mean, having worked in the financial sector for a long time, the classical is risk management, legal and operations. They believe of each other that each is there to stop the other from doing a good job, whereas actually they should be helping each other. And often they actually don't. Although everyone is that doing the best job that they think they can do, but they're so into the goals and the culture of that part of the organization that they end up impeding each other and obstructing each other. So that was my big lesson seeing, oh, if we want together as an organization really achieve great things and remain competitive and fulfill the mission that we've been given by our stakeholders, we have to collaborate. And then the old power ways of working don't work anymore. So that was like the less, the very important lessons that I took from, from working inside large organizations. And the other thing is that often the, the purpose driven leadership that would be most powerful to bring people to give their best gets kind of drowned in the day to day, our KPIs, how do we please the stakeholders? How do we, how do we look good that we have achieved all that. But while we're doing that, we kind of either greenwash or whitewash, or, make colorful what we're pretending to do rather than actually achieving the purpose of the organization, really creating the impact that we want to create. And then you lose the people. Like I've been part of many employer engagement surveys, seeing that especially when you have passionate, intelligent people, they want to see that, like the meaning of it. Where are we actually going? How do I contribute to that? Does it make sense? And if you take that away from them, they will simply be less good at what they are doing because they get demotivated. It's quite normal. And then the organization achieves less than what it could achieve when you have a more visionary purposeful leadership. And that doesn't mean that you take, that you talk day and night about your vision. It means only that you keep it in focus, and they know how to talk about it to motivate people.
I think it's interesting what you're, you know, one of the things I hear inside of what you just said, which I think is really interesting and often happens is that organizations and leaders over-correct. So, they go from only being about KPIs and results, and never talking about vision or purpose to losing focus on the accountability piece. And only talking about vision and purpose, which also is not great for people in the org. Like neither extreme is great for anyone in the organization because if people don't know why they're working, the vision and purpose, they get demotivated. If they also don't know what they're meant to be doing, what they're meant to be, what their goals are, they get disengaged and demotivated because they're, you know, it's that like, who cares? Like what's it really going to matter? And I see so often that, that, you know, there's an over-correction there and it sounds like what you're really talking about is there's a middle ground where obviously accountability and results matter. You know, organizations are here to make money, and do a number of different things, whatever it is. But also, the vision and purpose and how you communicate that matters.
Yeah.
And how have you, how have you found the, how do you find that middle ground? I guess is the question. How do people find that middle ground or how have you found helping leaders and organizations get to that middle ground? What has worked or what's been challenging or, you know, how does that go?
For me, it's to reassure them that it's both part of it because I do get sometimes the question, but then is it, is it kind of more noble to only focus on the vision or if I only do that, then can I be also that leader who is like results driven and it's both. And to reassure someone, actually you have to look at both, but then it's question how you do it. So, let's, if we talk about KPIs, they are really important for steering. So, to control certain things, did we actually achieve this? But if you do only the vision and only the KPIs and you don't have anything in the middle, which is the communication about it to tell people what actually they're supposed to do, it's very difficult for them to do it. Let me explain to you. So, if I tell you, you got to do a hundred successful calls, it's a call center-
Yep, yep.
A hundred successful calls, but you do not know what successful is. You can't do your job well. So, you're probably only going to do a hundred and then I have to assess you in a certain way. And probably my business is going down because I didn't tell you what successful means and you have a different idea than I have. And together we don't have success. So, what I always tell my clients is to make a distinction between agreements and expectations. So, to expect someone to do something is not good enough. You actually have to communicate with your people about what you want them to do and how that would look like. Of course, you need to also give freedom to do the little house, but if you don't have any conversation about what are we doing here? What does good look like? What's more important than the other thing? People really act in a void, although they know the KPIs, they don't know how to fulfill them. So that communication is actually very, very important.
I love the distinction and overlap, but also distinction between agreements and expectations. Because I talk a lot about how often we have ghost expectations, which to me are those expectations that we're not communicating. We're like, oh, these are the expectations. They're just an expectation is not, it's a ghost expectation unless someone agrees to it.
Yeah.
Like if we are not discussing and we have not agreed to the expectation, that's your ghost expectation. That is not something that you can, in my opinion, anyone should be judged or rated or whatever on.
Yeah.
That's the thought in my head.
Absolutely. It's a thought in your head. I don't know it. I can't look inside your head. And what I've also seen in this conversation that you're referring to, is that when we have this conversation, actually something happens that is more than your expectation and my expectation. Actually, we construct something together.
Yes.
I've led team workshops where an important part was creating agreements. And people said very often at the end, oh, now I really feel good about what we are doing together because I'm part of it. I could say, well, this is a bit difficult. Can we get some help here? Or what do you actually mean? And then we have an agreement together. I could express my views, my needs, et cetera. And then I'm engaged. Because I had a say and even if the boss says, well, we really need to do that. And even if it's difficult, we were able to discuss it. And I could say, well, I might need a couple of days more or I need that tool for it. And at least he heard, or she heard my difficulties with it. I'm engaged.
Absolutely. And I imagine it creates the opportunity to go from even if, so you and I might discuss our expectations about something. It doesn't actually mean we have a shared understanding at the end of what we're supposed to do, of what this is ultimately going to look like because we may still be leaving with our same expectation we walked in with if there isn't an agreement.
Yeah.
And that happens so often where we walk, meetings happen and people walk out and they're like, well, we know what we're doing. Everyone's on the same page. And everyone goes and does things that were, that are completely not. There was, it's very clear there was no agreement. And I think any leader who is listening or watching this, it's very familiar with that because it's really common.
Yeah. And also, when as a leader, I have to go to people and tell them you didn't do that the way that I expected you to do it. It's quite unpleasant if we didn't have that conversation beforehand. If we had it, I can say, well, listen, we had a conversation on Thursday. We agreed with that. We would do it like that, like this. I see that you have done it differently. Can you tell me how that happened? Rather than coming out of the blue, it really helps a lot to create that accountability.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to shift gears a tiny bit, still related, but I'm curious, I know you have the, and we've mentioned it a couple of times, your smart power method. I'm curious if you can kind of share a little bit about what that is and you know, how it came to be.
So, it came to be actually out of the book that is, that I've written in the past couple of years and that's coming out right now, which is called who's in charge, how to become more impactful in this very chaotic world that we live in. And as I was writing it, I was focusing more and more on the central aspect of power. And so, it out of that and a talk I gave last year, came the smart power method. As things happen, when you work on things you can dig deeper, and you create more. And the smart acronym stands for systemic, merging, authentic, personal power, relationship power and transformational power. And I will go briefly through the five. So systemic means if today in today's complex, and volatile world, you don't have an understanding of the system that you're operating in, but just the particles, you're not going to go very far. So, you have to understand the systems and how the particles affect each other and the longterm view to, to operate as a leader in today's world. The second is the merging power. I call it merging because it's about pooling, merging resources and control. And that's something that I've seen a lot in my corporate experience is where each silo, each department is jealously protecting their territory of control. And they're actually all losing out. And I saw it in particular in the final years that I was working at the European Investment Bank, when we became the climate bank, which was even more complex to manage than being simply like the public lending bank for Euro-wide projects at the time. So how do you become a climate bank? You have to be much more convincing with your stakeholders, with your staff, with promoters because people, they might talk about climate on a Sunday, but on a Monday, they just look where the profit comes from. So, we really have to shift gears, and we had to become better at communicating with the outside world and inside. So that meant that inside we had to really, to collaborate more and to not only be good in relationship and collaboration, but to actually give up some control in order to gain more control together. And that's probably a very, very hard part because we all have been educated to like keep control, be in charge, et cetera. But I've seen that it's really a superpower in becoming more powerful as an organization, or even as an individual serving others. If we're able to give up some control, we gain control because we pull it together with others. Then we have the A in smart power, which is authentic personal power. And actually, I found that this is maybe the most important ones. Whenever I use the concept with my clients, I see that that's what they most struggle with necessarily, but really need in order to use all the rest, to be like resting in themselves, to be grounded in themselves, to have authority, to be impactful as a person. So, it's everything that is related to personal mastery, to be resilient and grounded in our lives as leaders. So that's authentic personal power. Then we have relationship power, which is simply about being connected with others. It's a little bit less than the emerging power, but both are important. And then finally it's the transformational power, which is about, we touched upon it before, the power of being intentional. Because we don't transform anything if we don't have a clear purpose in mind at the start.
Yeah.
Thank you for walking through all that. And for sharing that. I think it's really helpful for people to understand. And I want to go back to the authentic personal power piece because you mentioned that when you're working with clients that it's maybe the most important, I was going to say challenging, and I know you corrected yourself with that one. So, the most important to the implementation of the others, the consistency of the others. And I'm curious, what is most challenging about that for people? And I get it's a generalization, you can't speak for everyone, but what do you see as some of the biggest challenges people have with that authentic personal power?
What I see as the biggest challenge is a challenge that I have entirely gone through myself. It's that we are so much educated when we are in these positions to lead ourselves through our mind, that we are not so much in touch with our body and authentic personal power really needs the embodiment. We need to use our body and our emotions, which we live in our body in order to have that power. It's not possible to only understand it. Oh, great concept. Now I get it. It's sometimes very easy actually to understand on an intellectual level, but it's often very challenging to really develop and acquire on an emotional and even physical level.
So, I totally relate to and understand that. I'm sure I've said this on this podcast before, but I've talked about a lot that I have a long history of being able to intellectualize my way through just about everything. Yeah, right? I'm saying this because I'm like, I feel like you will appreciate that where it's like, oh, even my emotions, I'm like, I can intellectualize. I can tell you what I'm feeling without actually feeling it. My journey is my journey. Your journey is your journey. I think there's a lot of people though, who can relate to some aspect of that and how can people, I mean, I guess kind of start to be in their body more to have less of the, what we default to and which by the way, in traditional business, what's been valuable has been rational thought. It has been, let's intellectualize everything. The emotions don't matter. It's not about the physicality. It is only about what you think about things. So, we also have, that is pervasive in the business world, whether you are an entrepreneur or in corporate, that is pervasive everywhere. So, recognizing that we have a long history of that being what mattered most, how can people start to, as you were saying in their body, how can people start to feel it in their body? How can they start to be in their body, not just in their head? Let's put it that way.
Maybe first of all, by allowing themselves to, you have a partly French background, so Descartes. I think therefore I am. And we are really all educated to glorify the mind.
Yeah. And the mind is important. We could not figure out many things without using the mind, obviously. But we sometimes kind of fool ourselves to think that the emotions are actually not operating. They're operating all the time. We are often rationalizing, as you said before, we're rationalizing the emotions, but we don't let them actually operate. So, we should allow ourselves to feel our emotions so we can actually figure out what's going on. So, what we really want, what's important to us, because if we only get the end of that, our rational thoughts about them, we are less intelligent, actually, because our emotions are very important, like guiding elements for us. They really tell us what is important to us, what we want to avoid, what we are drawn to. Also, sometimes the intuition, that doesn't feel good. Einstein is known to have done a lot out of intuition. And then obviously he went to make the calculations, so should we. But to not allow our intuition is impoverishing ourselves. That is very clear. And the body comes in, first of all, because we can't feel our emotions when we are disconnected from our body. The emotions physiologically, they live in our body. We feel them because we feel our body. So, if we're cut off from our body, we can't feel our emotions. So, telling ourselves, it's good to be in my body. I allow myself to be in my body. It's nothing to be ashamed of. So, let's embrace my own body. It's beautiful. It's good. And so, I can feel my body and I can feel my emotions. And then sometimes it's difficult, because I haven't done it for such a long time. And then it's sort of getting used to giving ourselves the space. So, what I often do with my clients is simply breathing. And when we allow ourselves some time to breathe, to really not do shallow breathing, but just follow our breath, how it enters and leaves the body, we already connect automatically to our body. So that's a very, very simple way to get at home in our body. Or one thing I do myself, or I also tell my clients to do, is just to take a moment, lie down on the bed, and breathe in, breathe out, and with each breath, really feel into the whole body. Like in meditation, it's called a body scan, for the people who are into meditation or mindfulness, and we don't have to give it any name. We can simply say, I feel into all parts of my body, so I get to inhabit my body. And when you do that, you really get to feel, oh, it's so nice to really, like putting on a glove, to be in the body, to feel the whole body, and then you inhabit yourself more, and you will feel how you get to feel more relaxed, and actually more comfortable, confident inside yourself. These are first small steps in the work.
But the first small steps are often the hardest for people to know to do, right? Like that's the-
Yeah.
It is very helpful.
And then sometimes it's actually good to work with someone who can accompany you, because what can happen is that it's so uncomfortable, or you don't really know whether you're doing it right, so you drop it again, or you drop it again because you have something more important to do, you think. And if you work with someone who kind of holds you accountable or guides you or supports you, encourages you, it's easier, and it's so worthwhile. I mean, I started my life being very physical as a kid, and have been told like, no, no, no, too loud, too much, et cetera. And then I was told that being intelligent is much more important than being physical or being emotional, and I obliged. And it took me many years in my teens and twins to get back into my body. And it also wasn't easy, because I had become unacquainted. I remember I took dance improvisation classes, and my teacher really heavily scolded me, like, Sylvia, you're dancing with nothing. I can't feel anything when I see you. It looks kind of like, and I see that you can dance, but I don't feel your expression. It's like, oh, it's true. I don't feel my body either, so let's maybe slow down the movement and feel first before I do all kinds of fancy movements.
Yeah.
It takes some time.
Well, and it's interesting, because even, I appreciate you sharing that story, because I think it's very relatable, because I think there's a lot of people who will do, you know, dance is a great example, where they will pursue dance, and they're very technically good, and they're hitting whatever beats they're meant to hit and the moves they're meant to hit, but there isn't that feeling, there's not that enjoyment, there's not that, like we've all watched dance, sports, whatever our flavor is, where you get caught up in what is being expressed, and it may not be technically perfect, but you are, you can feel it, and we can intellectualize dance, we can intellectualize anything if we want to.
And here's the really important and interesting thing, so is like dancing is perfect because everyone can dance, like the Africans say very correctly, if you can walk, you can dance, so we all can dance. We can dance on our own, or when we are invited to a party, dance and feel that dance really from the inside out, not what I'm going to dance for someone, but really feeling, as you just said, enjoying the music in the moment. And actually, when we get to have that feeling of being in our body and being fully present, we also kind of connect with others much more. Other people are like, oh, this is a beautiful person, I want to go and talk to him or her. I'm attracted to that person. And from that place of being inside your body and being switched on, so to speak, you also will feel what it means to be an embodied leader. So, if you have that physical presence, that being in a good sense full of yourself, like being really there, people will listen to you in a different way. People will want to listen to you. People will look at you and be attracted to that person who speaks. So that's a very interesting way of thinking about authority and leadership impact, to be that embodied person. And it's actually an enjoyable thing.
So, I want to share this really quickly, because it popped into my head. Absolutely. And when you were talking, what I thought of, there was a video maybe last year, sometime within the last five years, no sense of time anymore. There's a video that came out that was at a concert, and it's people sitting on a hill, and everyone is sitting, and you can hear the music, whatever band it is in the background. And there is a man who gets up and starts dancing. And this is being, you know, someone's kind of filming, and then they catch him getting up, and he's dancing crazy, right? Just, like, really living in the music. And, you know, people are looking at him, and you can hear some laughter, and then someone else gets up and starts to dance. And then someone else gets up and starts to dance. And then you see this entire area around him. Everyone's like, oh, and everyone is up and dancing and just, you know, moving, whatever. No one is, there's no rhyme or reason to it. It's not all the same, but people are just moving. Because this man stood up, embodied, you know, was himself, felt what he was feeling-
Yeah.
Did his thing, and people follow. Even those that were like, look at him. By the end, they're all up and dancing.
Yeah.
Because you can, that joy, that, the power that comes from that, you know, being authentically himself and just embodying it, it spread in a few-minute video. And I, as you were talking, I was picturing that video and thinking, that is what it is for leaders.
Yeah, I love that story.
Before we wrap up, I always ask the question, is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanna make sure we talk about, or something that we talked about that you want to emphasize, you know, before we kind of end our conversation?
Yes, maybe just on that point of the authentic expression. So, I've seen both ends of the spectrum. Leaders who are not comfortable in their body and who kind of try to protect themselves through a wall of coldness or of, like, this is my authority, of hiding their emotions, they are so far less effective than leaders who are, as your dancer, who are fully embodied and comfortable in themselves. And I've seen such leaders say things that are uncomfortable, that are difficult for other people to hear, but they were able to hear it because that leader was comfortable in his own body and therefore also connected with the other person. Because when we hide behind that wall, we disconnect from the others. And when we are comfortable in our own body, we can connect in a positive, even loving way, with someone else, even though we have something difficult to say. And that's maybe something I want to really to tell people, like, to dare, to therefore, to dare to embrace your own physicality, be present, because it allows you to connect to others and you're so far more powerful doing so.
Absolutely. I love that. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me today, Sylvia. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your time and your thoughts and your openness and willingness to share. I think it is incredibly important and it's gonna really resonate with the listeners and viewers of this. And for those who want to learn more about Sylvia, her website will be linked in the show notes per usual, but it's smartpowermethod.com. And thank you once again for chatting with me today.
Thank you, Celine. It's been such a pleasure.
[Celine] Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate, and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.