In this episode, we're talking about (and to) front-line managers with leadership development expert, Summer Davies. We also get into some of middle management's biggest struggles, like prioritization and micromanaging, as well as what to do about them. And express our gratitude for this integral and important role.
In this episode, we're talking about (and to) front-line managers with leadership development expert, Summer Davies.
Middle management is essential to our organizations because they know our clients, customers, products, and brands better than anyone. They see crisis, change, or potential risks first – and are often the ones who have the most important and creative solutions.
In this conversation, we discuss a couple of their biggest hindrances (the ability to prioritize well, while communicating upward and downward, as well as micromanaging).
We explore how to check in and know whether you're doing either, as well as some practical solutions to address both, change the environment, and get the best results from your team.
I hope you'll join us!
And, if you know a front-line manager, give them some work-appropriate love – they need it.
*If you are one, thank you for ALL that you do. We see and appreciate you!
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Summer Davies is an award-winning leadership development expert with over 15 years of experience. She helps burgeoning leaders develop the mindset and tactical skills to lead with impact, confidence, empowerment, and a genuine love for what they do. As a lifelong equestrian, beekeeper, and sub-par snowboarder, Summer brings a unique perspective and sense of urgency to Leadership Development conversations.
Based in Parker, Colorado, she lives with her husband and two beautiful daughters, and together they love to travel, explore local breweries, and indulge in their passion for food trucks. Tune in to hear her inspiring journey from unexpected leadership to a passion-driven career in coaching and empowering others to become the leaders they aspire to be.
Check Summer out at www.leader-shop.com or follow her on LinkedIn for more!
FREE Micromanager Assessment
https://www.leader-shop.com/home#micromanagerassessment
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Summer Davies, a trailblazing leadership coach and an unwavering advocate for frontline managers. Welcome to the show, Summer.
- Ah, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
- I'm really excited to talk to you. I feel like I always say I'm excited to talk to people, because I'm really lucky to have really interesting people on the show and genuinely very excited, 'cause I think the topic of managers in general and what they're dealing with and what's going on for them is really important and we do a lot of talking about executives and less about frontline managers quite often, so I'm very excited to get into this, but before we do, per usual, my first question is always the name of the show is "Leading Through Crisis." When you hear that phrase, what comes up for you? What does it mean for you?
- So for me, I've had the, I wouldn't say opportunity, but I've had the experience of both leading teams through crisis in my corporate life, and then also working with teams who are working through crisis and when I say crisis, that means like big, big crisises, where we've got like serious safety incidences going on or really serious things happening and then what I might call maybe a smaller crisis. So teams who are in crisis and are not able to be productive or effective together, or they're having individual personal crisises on the team. So to me that can mean so many things, but it's any time where what we have going on is a little bit less than status quo and what I think is funny and what I think you say quite often is, that's most of the time, so we like to think that these are like big pivotal moments that happen, but the reality is that changes the only constant and so crisis sounds like such a dramatic word, but in fact when I get into working with people, it's something that's a little bit more common in their day-to-day experiences.
- Yes, I mean, as you said, I would definitely agree with that and I always say that crisis is all about perspective. So one person's crisis is someone else is gonna be like, "Oh, that's just an everyday thing." Whereas for one person or one team or one organization or whatever the case may be, it feels huge and that's all it is, it's the feeling that is associated with whether we label it a crisis or not. So I very much a appreciate that perspective and if only there were not constant crisis and yet here we are in a state where it feels like for someone somewhere always, that's where we're at and I would imagine that middle managers, you know, the frontline managers are really feeling that more so than many others in organizations.
- You are so right about this and this is actually one of the reasons why I love working with frontline and middle managers. There are amazing C-Suite executives out there and fantastic top level people and I've have had the privilege to work with some of them, but the folks I get fired up about are those frontline and middle folks because they're the ones who see crisis or change or potential risks first. They know it's coming usually before anyone else does, because they know your product, they know your customer, they know your brand better than anyone does. They feel it first because that's where the squeeze happens, especially in the middle and often they are the ones who have the most creative and important solutions because they have that depth of understanding and they have that organizational perspective and so these folks often get forgotten about until it's an actual fire, right? Something's really burning down. Then we start to think about these people, but often they don't get the shake that they deserve because they are the ones who have solutions that a C-suite could never come up with just because of their perspective and so working with these folks about those types of regular fluctuations and experience and helping them understand how do I navigate this skillfully and confidently so that when things are going great or things are going not so great, I'm still doing great and how do I build the skill to be able to escalate solutions, elevate risk earlier so that the organization can stay a little bit safer? And this is true when I say organization, this can be like multi-billion dollar organizations and it can also be families, right? Like same type of human behavior going on in those types of situations.
- So how, I mean, it sounds like this is one, I'm sure there are many, many struggles that, you know, frontline and middle managers are faced with the things that they are challenged by. This sounds like one of probably a few, but I'm wondering if there are threads or commonalities or themes, I'm not sure what the word is for this, of some of those struggles that you see across different size of organizations, industries, whatever, what's going on and what helps, what can we do? What's the, what are the opportunities for whether it's, you know, other people in the organization, peers, their leaders, people that reports to them, whatever the case may be, like what can we do?
- So there is, and I think when folks say, okay, well how do we help this population, particularly front and middle managers be more equipped to deal with the ever flowing change that they're faced with? I think that they hope for a really sexy answer and my answer is decidedly unsexy.
- Just for the record Summer, I love an unsexy answer, 'cause that is always my go-to, is an unsexy answer, so I'm here for it.
- It's super simple. One of the main skills that managers struggle with, especially at this level, is the ability to prioritize. They may have been a really good prioritizer for their individual contribution, right? And then when they become a leader of others or a leader of managers, the ability to prioritize organizational priorities and then communicate those effectively downward, it's a totally different skill and most people don't ever receive any training on it and there's all sorts of interesting data that's coming out right now that confirms that managers are struggling with prioritization. There's just this really fascinating study that came out from Microsoft who has the ability to look and see, you know, aggregate data across what people are doing on the teams platform as an indicator of where people are spending their time and what they're finding is really alarming upticks in the number of meetings people are attending, the number of times people are double booked. So they're supposed to be in two places at one time and the number of times that people are on a meeting, a teams meeting and they're actively doing other work in the background, answering emails, on a web browser doing something else and that tells us that folks are using meetings and using these types of mechanisms to try to get around a lack of clarity about what's important, but if they're multitasking actively in a meeting, neither thing is that important and neither thing is getting their best thinking and that's an indication of a lack of clarity around prioritization and so this matters in the day-to-day, right? Like you can clearly make the links between why does this matter if we're getting work done in a normal situation, but when things get busy or things get crazy or things go totally off the rails, you need a leader who has the ability to quickly reprioritize and communicate, okay, here's what's most important, let's tackle this first, let's get after these and then work with their team to understand those priorities and it's a simple skill, but if you haven't practiced it, you can't really lean into that skill in a moment of tremendous need, if you don't even have the foundation of the skill there. So I would say the ability to prioritize is absolutely one of those ones we miss so much for this group of folks.
- So I'm curious because I hear, I don't disagree. I think, I think, I mean, I would say that the ability to prioritize is often lacking no matter where people are, where they sit in an organization and I hear what you're saying and I hear there's a level, there's a skillset that comes with discernment to be able to say and parse out what is the priority, what is, you know, urgent versus important versus whatever the case may be in a variety of settings and I wonder how big the gap is, in that starting point of discernment before they even jump into prioritization.
- It often can be large and some of that then comes back to, do you have some clarity around the purpose of an organization so that you can use that as your ballast point for discernment and many folks will say, well I don't, you know, I like my organization, there's great coffee in the office, or we get great benefits or whatever, right? Or, I like what we do, I'm into the work that we do, but the purpose of my organization maybe not so much and this then comes back to those things that more senior level leaders can lean into to be really, really effective to be able to articulate that clearly, but then encourage a behavior all the way down the organization around the ongoing communication of what is the purpose of that organization and then how does it connect to the way that you're prioritizing, right? That can allow that discernment to become much easier, 'cause we can then say, here's what we're trying to do, that then clarifies my priorities. Now a lot of times what happens is you get senior leaders who say, "Well we talked about it at the start of the year meeting, everybody knows." Well the research says it used to be that people needed to hear things seven times in order for it to really fix in their brain. Now with the rise of social media and short form media, it's more like 11 and so if you think about somebody needs to hear something 11 times for it to solidify in their brain, that's almost once a month and that's for everyone in the organization and so again, equipping people who are that bottleneck to your front lines with the ability to say, "Here's what's important. Here's what we're focusing on, here is our purpose as an organization," that's when you get to real amazing outcomes and we're seeing in today's society, we're seeing so many places where we've lost that, right? Like if I looked up as of today, how many unions are striking, it would be a lot, right? Major, major folks on the front lines doing critical work are striking and yes, I think it's because they don't get paid enough, right? People like doctors and nurses and teachers should absolutely be paid a lot more than they do, but I think it's also because they don't have a connection to what is it that we're doing here, why does it matter? And then how does the work I do every day connect to that, so that whether it's a calm day or it's a crazy day, I have that connection point and that consistency so I can feel like I can keep things together.
- I feel like a lot of, nope, that's, I think that is maybe a better way of putting that. I think that there's a lot of organizations, people, leaders, that this is twofold, actually. One are concerned that if they say something 11 times, people are going to become annoyed with being, you know, having things repeated that many times, which then puts them at a great disadvantage, because people don't remember things. They just don't, we are, you know, people are busy. We, to your point, social media, we're all jumping from thing to thing so people don't remember things and also when you combine that with the expectation that I see quite often, which is, well, you just connect your work to whatever we're talking about. Like just make time to do that. It's on you to put that time aside and figure, again, we're all busy, but you put that time aside to figure it out. I feel, you know, I think that there's, I think that is a really not great combination for people to, for managers especially who are, you know, you said bottleneck, but they're in that place where they are filtering up and down and around in so many ways. It puts them in a really challenging position to grow, to lead, to do anything when it's like you don't have, you may not have all the information or have it said to you enough times for it to really resonate, but also make the time to do the thing that's only on you to do the thing that you might not be aware of.
- Yeah and what we know is, save for the very special few. If the approach is, oh, it's on you to make this connection, they're not gonna do it.
- Uh-huh, right.
- They're just not gonna do it, not because they're lazy, 'cause they're categorically not, and not 'cause they don't have the intelligence to do it, which is also not true, unless you're hiring deeply unintelligent people, which is a recruiting problem that you should address immediately, right? They're not either of those things. They're busy. They re busy and here's the other thing that is just true about humanity and it's as true today as it was 2000 years ago. Humans want connection. They want to follow people who help them feel connected and in absence of that, they will go find it somewhere else. This is part of why things like TikTok and Instagram reels and Twitter are so popular, because if I don't get that connection and that tie to meaning and purpose at work, which is something we got very clearly and explicitly, pre-industrial revolution and since then we've been losing step by step for the last a hundred years or so, we then create artificial ways to feel connected and that's what things like TikTok and Reels and Twitter give us is instant gratification, instant connection to a community of like-minded people and those algorithms are built brilliantly to help you feel like when you pick up your phone, you're gonna find somebody who thinks politically like you or socially like you, or who's interested into the same hobbies that you are and your brain will get that connection that it craves and so for leaders to assume that it's not part of their responsibility to build that connection into work, the biggest investment of human time of our lives, it's a huge oversight and it's a little bit scary for organizations to think, "Oh they'll do it," 'cause they won't, they'll just go find it somewhere else.
- Yeah. I wanna pivot slightly 'cause I know before we hit record, we had talked about micromanaging a little bit and this is something that comes up truthful, I mean, I think it actually comes up more in conversations now, you know, in the post pandemic world, in the sense that I think a lot of, there was a lot of that happening during the pandemic and people built some habits around it, even if they weren't naturally inclined to do it or to think of that, people are going back to the office, some people are back init, I think there's also a lot of stuff happening there and I'd love some insight, I'd love your opinion on your thoughts on micromanaging. How can people recognize it in themselves? How could you potentially point it out to someone else kindly if you are dealing with it? How do you recognize some of these things? 'Cause you know, I do think it is, like I said, I feel like it's coming up more and more and more in conversations and in organizations in general these days.
- It absolutely is and I say all the time, my favorite dirty word is micromanagement because it is so much fun to play with, but it has real impacts on people's lives and my favorite micromanager is Michael Scott. So anybody who's seen the show, "The Office," I pick on Michael Scott, the manager in that show, because he's such a perfect example of a micromanager, right? He does not have the ability to bring out the best in his people, he thinks he has all the solutions and really importantly, he's not a bad guy. He does not wake up in the morning thinking, "I am gonna really be a jerk at work today. I'm gonna get all up in my people's business. I'm not gonna allow them to come up with solutions. I'm gonna belittle them," right. He does not think any of those things. He wakes up in the morning and he thinks he's the world's best boss. He bought himself a mug that says so, and this is also true of many, many, many of the micromanagers out there. They do not wake up in the morning intending to be a micromanager. I know zero who would tell me this is my plan.
- Right.
- And in fact, when they discover that that behavior is going on, they're mortified and horrified about that impact and they're really motivated to change because no one wants to be that, so I think that that's important to just point out in the beginning because we're not talking about people who are intentionally bad leaders and in fact often it's the opposite. It is an excess of good intention that's creating micromanagement. Things like, ah, my team, they're just, you know, they're not getting there fast enough. I wanna help them give them the solution. I want to give them the best way forward, which is obviously my way because I care about them so much. So it is well intended behavior misplaced often that's causing micromanagement and I think that's important to call out also to allow people some space and safety in saying, "Okay, maybe I should do something about this, because it's not that I'm a bad person, it's that I've just misaligned my approach and I can fix that." That's easy to fix. It's hard to fix being a bad person. And so what often happens with micromanagement is you've got somebody who just doesn't understand when do I need to give direction? 'Cause this person genuinely doesn't have the information, the knowledge, the skills or the experience to be able to do this, so I need to put in some for them, when do I need to put in motivation? Because the problem is they do have knowledge, skills, experience, ability, but they're just not motivated. So now I need to be more of a cheerleader and when do I need to be just more of a coach and step back and help them extract the great solutions that they have in there? And in order to do that, I gotta get myself out of the way and not be the deliverer of solutions, the answer of the questions and allow them to do that. And that's just a mindset shift. That's going from the value that I add is in what I can do individually. Two, the value that I add is by creating results and outcomes from a group of people that is greater than I could have done on my own and that's the shift from individual contributor to manager and when people make that, it becomes much easier to not be a micromanager, but to your other question, you'd said, "Wow, gosh, yeah, I don't wanna be a micromanager." How do I know? If I'm doing it, if I'm, you just said I'm doing, you know, well-intended things. How do I know? So the questions that sometimes I ask are things like, how often are the solutions that your team comes up with, entirely their own? How often are you seeing an outcome or a solution that is what you would've created and they got there in the way you would've done it. Now the answer shouldn't be, you know, all the time they're doing it on their own because you should be helping sometimes, but if the answer is, "Oh well, always they do it the way I would do it," you might wanna look at that. The other big one is if you've noticed a shift, and this is a sentence I hear so often, my people used to be really good at solving problems and now they just come to me with problems. They don't come to me with solutions. What may be happening is that they were coming up with solutions and you were shooting them down or in some other way, dismantling them often enough that they've learned to avoid that pain and just come to you and say, "Tell me what you want me to do." They can say that sometimes, but if they say that always, you might wanna look at that behavior and start considering why are they doing that? And then the last one, I often have leaders, this is a really tactical exercise folks can do. Get yourself a journal or a couple blank pieces of paper, napkins, it doesn't matter, but for three days after every conversation with one of your employees, write down the number of times you asked a question and the number of times you answered a question and if the number of times you answered the question is more than the number of times you asked a question, it's probably time to start looking at adjusting your style and so it's just simple math, right? Track it down, asked, answered, what's my ratio? If you are asking questions, you are probably extracting greatness from your team. Good questions. If you're not, and you're telling all the time, you might be on that border of micromanagement. So simple way, just to assess yourself.
- I appreciate the tactical example. I think that's really valuable for people to start doing. It's an easy task. It's not the right word. It's an easy thing. Let's be as vague as possible, to start doing, to pay attention and I'm curious, I think there are a lot of managers in general who will ask good questions and get good context and be part of, in a, you know, encouraging their people, whether it's an individual or a team to brainstorm, share, whatever the case may be and then at the end of that there will be a version of here's how I would do it, or here's how I would suggest you do it. Which ends up overriding so much of what happened beforehand and I wonder, and this is, please push back on this Summer. I'm not saying that my opinion, my guess is that in a situation like that, it is much harder for people to identify that they are micromanaging or that they're overriding in those moments, their team is still gonna feel it. Individuals are still gonna feel it. They might feel great like, but I ask so many questions, but the way they then present a solution or, well, how I would do it doesn't feel like an option and it, you know, if you agree or disagree, but is that as common as I think it, as I have experienced it being in conversations and if so, how do you overcome that? Because I do think that those people would be like, "But look at all the questions I asked as part of getting to this." and they would not, "I didn't actually say that many things. So I'm not a micromanager."
- So that can happen. What I would tell you is that, can only go on for a short period of time because human beings will learn very quickly. yeah, I put in all my ideas, I put in all my opinions and then we just did it her way anyway. You'll start to see in your team meetings, in those conversations, people start responding less and less. They start contributing less and less. They start saying things like, "Well what do you think we should do?" And inviting the manager then to just share, because they'll say, "I'm not gonna waste the next two hours of my energy coming up with great ideas if we're just gonna do it her way anyway." Humans are smart and they will figure that out really quickly. It may take a couple months, but you'll start to notice a dramatic change in the environment of those conversations and that can be an indicator that oof this is, maybe this is going the wrong way. So a question that can be helpful for managers to ask internally, if you've had that great conversation where you've asked all those questions and your team has come up with a solution, and maybe you've written it up, I'm looking up on my whiteboard.
- Yep.
- You've looked it up, you've written it up on your whiteboard and you're thinking, that is not what I had in mind, right? I thought this product was gonna end up being red with bold font and that is purple with scripty font, right? Whatever it happens to be. That's not what I had in mind asking yourself, but is it wrong, right? Could this be even better? What's the risk in going with this? If you're in a situation where the answer is, well people might die, if this outcome is wrong, then maybe you have a different conversation, but if the answer is something else, you know, having that internal ego check conversation of, okay, not what I had in mind, what might we gain by running with this? You know, and starting to set some things inside your own mind to say, okay, this is way off what I thought it would be, if I let 'em run with it, what's the risk? How will I track if we're getting towards that risk and recalibrate if we need to and let them go with it, because again, the idea is that your team is able to come up with ideas you could never have come up with on your own. If all your organization wanted you to do was share your great ideas, they just wouldn't make you a manager. You just keep sharing your great ideas. So that's a moment of an ego check to start asking yourself some of those questions, to say, is this wrong? How do I know it's wrong? What might be the risk if we run with it? Type of questions and allowing yourself to allow your team some space to stretch their legs and if it turns out that the scripty font was the worst marketing decision in the history of all time, you probably then have an amazing development opportunity for your team to go back and learn from that in a way that they could never have learned if you just told them go with the bold font, right? They wouldn't learn anything from that, but if you went with their idea, it might be wildly successful and it might be a total failure and a great development opportunity. So the story I share often in this space is Frito-Lay makes chips. Many people like their chips very much. In the early eighties, they had standard flavors, right? Everybody knew their flavors, they were into it, but they had kind of stagnated and so they were looking for a solution that would be different, a new flavor and they did something that in the early eighties, nobody in management was doing, is they asked frontline workers, what do you think? What would be a great new flavor? And it was a janitor in one of their factories came forward and said, "We need to make something spicy, like really spicy and cheesy. I think we should make some Cheetos that are hot" and I can guarantee that every executive in that room said "That's the worst idea ever. Like terrible plan." They ran with it and Flaming Hot Cheetos continues to be one of the top selling brands, right? Sometimes those crazy ideas that wouldn't have been what you came up with end up being wildly successful. So keeping an open mind that just because it didn't come from your ethos doesn't make it an amazing idea, can be really helpful and if you find that that is causing what I would call agita, which I'm not sure is the real word, but my grandma used to use it, but just that feeling of like, oh, I don't know, that's a great moment to say this could be my ego creeping in and saying maybe not and so just backing yourself off on some of those questions can be just wildly helpful. The other resource I would say is there's a woman named Byron Katie, she's, first name is Byron, she's a woman, she's got great videos on YouTube. She asks some of these really powerful questions around, is that true? How do I know it's true that you can use to check your ego if those things are coming up?
- I appreciate that and I think that that is, it's so often ego that does come up and I think doing that check is really important and I wanna ask one last question based on what you just said, which is I think oftentimes in, when there is healthy discourse on a team, they will come up with solutions, things will be going well, it might not be what a manager or leader would have done themselves and the team will ask, and not in a correctest way necessarily, but they will ask the manager or leader at the end of whatever solutioning, let's, I'm calling it solutioning. I'm not saying that's it, whatever it is, they'll ask the opinion of the manager or leader and I have found that I have seen very successfully, I'm a big proponent on, you know, be transparent and honest, don't lie to your team, even in those moments and acknowledging like, hey, this might not have been, this wasn't what I was expecting, or this might not be my first instinct or what I would do, but I would love to see you run with it and see what happens, because you know, my truth is not the truth. A version of that, I have seen that be an effective way of acknowledging this may not be how I would've, so there's, you're not pretending that, yeah, this is a great, if you don't think it is, without it being not a great idea and I'm wondering, does that make sense the way I said that? I'm wondering if that would be, in a moment like that, if someone is asked if you would suggest something like that or another version of that in order to keep that trust and transparency and accountability as part of the culture of that team?
- Categorically, yes and I think, you know, you do have to be truthful with yourself about what the trust levels on your team are.
- Yep.
- If you've got broken trust, that's a little bit riskier, right? If you've got, if you've been down a bumpy road, I think you need to approach that carefully and it's such a beautiful moment to be totally honest and say, okay, this is not the outcome I had envisioned and I'm excited, interested, curious to see whatever the appropriate word is, to see what happens here. So I am a little concerned if you are concerned, here's the metrics I'm starting to think, okay, you know, A, B, C, let's continue to check in more frequently than we would have if the solution felt more stable to me and here's what I'm gonna be looking for, whatever, so that you're super transparent about, as I mentioned earlier, here's the failure points. I'm gonna say this is the moment where gotta pull a plug on something where we're starting to run too much risk and I'm gonna be super transparent about that so that we all know what the goalposts are and we're running towards that collectively and I think you can be super, super honest and the more honest and gentle you can be, the more likely you are to say, "Hey guys, you know, I can't wait to see what happens here, genuinely, I can't wait to see what happens here and I'm super curious." So you may need to be really craftsman like in your language and your approach and your body language and your tone in saying that so that they believe you and they don't think you're setting them up to fail and then say, "I told you so," right? 'Cause that's a risk. If you're the type of leader, and I've worked for only a handful of, for only a handful of people like this, and with only a handful of people like this who can genuinely say that I, this is a terrible idea, but let me know how it goes and know that that trust is there that all those things that we craftfully
- Yep.
- Would've said as a team that didn't have the trust, that it's there. I can think of an instance where I was running a project in a major multinational. I had a manager that had built that level of trust. I had a really crazy idea and it was gonna cost many millions of dollars and she thought it was a really bad idea.
- Yeah.
- Really bad idea and I believed in it enough that I said, "Look, if it fails, you can fire me." And she said, "Okay, deal" and not only did I believe that she would let it be successful, I also believed that she'd fired me if I failed. Right?
- Yeah.
- Totally believed it and I have never worked harder on anything in my life. I didn't get fired, but that trust had to be there.
- Yeah.
- And that takes time, but then imagine what could happen on your team, in your family, in your organization, whatever, if that's the type of environment people work in, that they say, "I know this isn't what you'd come up with, but I believe in it, I think I can do it and I'm gonna pour my whole heart in it." Like the solutions you could come up with, the outcome, the products, whatever it is you make could be unbelievable, right, could change the world and that's what we're working towards and transforming, well-intended micromanagers into these type of trusting enablers of talent.
- Amazing. Summer, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today and to share all these insights with the audience. It's really, it's incredibly valuable and you know, like I said, I don't think we talk about frontline and middle managers enough, so I appreciate your time. There will be all the ways to connect with Summer in the show notes, but very quickly Summer, what's the best way for people to connect with you?
- You can find me on my website, we'll make sure the link is there. You can find out about all the stuff that I do. I'm also on LinkedIn so you can find me there. Either one is great and then my only advocation is if you know a frontline manager, if you lead a frontline manager, just go give them some work appropriate love today. They need it.
- Amazing. Thank you so much, Summer.
- Thank you.
- [Celine] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.