Today’s episode is essential to ensure you remain a great leader. Understanding and addressing unconscious bias at work is a must. Workplace culture consultant, Stacey Gordon talks to us about where to start and how to go from learning and knowing to doing.
“You need to be able to say, ‘Okay, I acknowledge that we all have biases. 'We' includes me. I have bias.’” Then, you can start to identify and address them.
What are we uncomfortable doing?
How do we improve our knowledge and behavior in those situations (to get ourselves more comfortable)?
This is what we dive into, in today's episode, with workplace culture consultant, keynote speaker, author, facilitator of learning and Executive Advisor on Diversity Strategies, Stacey Gordon.
Stacey says, “The crisis we need to be able to lead through is our own – because there is a crisis of leadership right now. If we don’t know what it’s going to take to remain a great leader in our organization, we have a problem.”
We are currently at a tipping point, where more people in the workplace think we should be doing something than not. But, we’re struggling to do it because:
- We’re so socialized not to
- We don’t have the education, support, or resources
- We’re not sure how to bridge the gap between learning/knowing and doing
- We’re scared of making mistakes
We explore them all, as well as how to overcome them, in this conversation. Join us. It’s important.
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Stacey Gordon is a workplace culture consultant, keynote speaker, author, facilitator of learning and Executive Advisor on Diversity Strategies. As the founder of Rework Work, it is her goal to change the way employers interact with employees. She expects leaders to lead and works to help employees belong.
She has worked with people managers and executive leaders from companies such as American Express, ADP, Kia Motors, Hewlett Packard, GE, The Obama Foundation and many others to deliver education, coaching and consulting that supports organizational change and leadership development in furtherance of creating inclusive workplace cultures.
As a globally recognized keynote speaker, leadership consultant and DEI strategist, Stacey has provided subject matter expertise to Harvard Business Review, SHRM, Fast Company, Skillsoft, Forbes, NPR and BBC Radio. Stacey’s book, UNBIAS: Addressing Unconscious Bias at Work debuted at #1 on Amazon’s Hot New Release list while her unconscious bias course on the LinkedIn learning platform was the #1 most watched course of 2021 and has been translated into several languages.
Her audience includes more than 2 million unique learners and Stacey has been recognized as a passionate supporter of DEI by Forbes, Pepperdine University and LinkedIn. She earned her MBA from Pepperdine University Business School and her SHRM-SCP certification, as well as the SHRM Inclusive Workplace Culture Credential.
To learn more visit learn.reworkwork.com. You can also find her on LinkedIn (Stacey A. Gordon), Instagram, Facebook and Twitter (ReworkWork).
- I am Céline Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times.
My guest today is Stacey Gordon, who is a workplace culture consultant, keynote speaker, author, facilitator of learning, and executive advisor on diversity strategies. She is a popular LinkedIn learning instructor, the top course on LinkedIn Learning, which is pretty cool. And the author of "Unbiased." Welcome Stacey.
Thank you. Thank you Céline.
I'm excited to have you here and talk about bias. It's a topic of passion for me, not because I think bias is great, obviously, but because I think it's something that is, people have a lot of questions about and there's a lack of clarity quite often, and I think it's important to talk about. So I'm really excited to get into this with you. But before we do that, I start every episode by asking my guests, when you hear the title of this podcast, which is Leading Through Crisis, what comes up for you or what does leading through crisis mean to you?
Yeah, I feel like we are in a perma-crisis, right? I think leading through crisis we always were, you know, you expect that leaders should be prepared for that one thing that's gonna come up in their tenure that they have to be ready for. And I feel like leaders have had to be ready, always right to flex and change. We've had the pandemic, we've had the, you know, part of that is working from home and trying to figure out hybrid work. We're having the frustration of going back to work. We've had the, you know, recession, we've got individuals who are, you know, before that we had people quitting in droves, right? There's just been so much that's been happening, and so there's a lot of turmoil. And I think that it's not so much even anymore about leading through crisis, it really is just being able to lead, right? It's like leading with flexibility, leading with grace, leading with humanity, which many of our leaders seem to have forgotten how to do.
Well, I would suggest that many of our leaders never knew how to do that to start with, so.
Great point, touche.
That there's definitely more of a requirement now for leading with humanity and grace given what every one globally has been through in the past few years, and it's just something they never learned to do. And kudos to the leaders that have been doing it all along and or learned the reality of the importance of doing it during the past few years, 'cause that's, I think you're right on the nose, I think that's absolutely a baseline requirement at this point.
Yeah.
So I'm just gonna jump right into the topic of bias 'cause I think that it's from a leadership, listen, it's not even only from a leadership perspective, like, but it's so in organizations when it comes to cultures, when it comes to people working together in any capacity, let alone when you're in a leadership position, it's such an important topic and such an important aspect of the human experience that we should all be aware of and comfortable with. Again, not in terms of just accepting bias for what it is, but having the conversation about it and understanding it. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what biases are, your experience in the world of creating this. You know, you've created this course around unconscious bias, you've written a book called "Unbiased," so you've a expertise in this area and I'd love to kind of hear a little bit about what this is for you, how this shows up in the, not for you specific, but in the working world and give people kind of a foundation for bias, 'cause I think there's lots of language and people go, "That doesn't apply to me," or, "I don't understand it, it's too complicated." Or whatever their re reaction is.
Yeah, I think that, you know, we talk about bias. We automatically believe that this is something negative, and it isn't necessarily, right? It is bias is a preference. And so we, I think the idea of bias, I'm stuttering over my words because it's just, there's so many things I wanna say and it's just funny because, like you said, people get defensive and unnecessarily so. And I think that we really have to be able to understand where we're, like, how we're showing up and how we're showing up as defensive and why, and start to understand what bias actually is, right? So if I think about the fact that what I think and then what I do are two very different things. And so we have all been socialized to behave certain ways, to adhere to certain standards, to accept certain things as normal, and that just is, right? That's how we have been socialized. And when we step outside of those norms, when we do things that go against the grain, we are usually punished, right? Or shamed or judged. And that teaches us that if we don't wanna be punished, or shamed, or judged, that we then need to, you know, get in line and stick with the, you know, the norm, right? And so I think that when it comes to how we show up, it is very hard to go against the grain and say, "You know what? The way that we're behaving in this workplace, yeah, I know we've always done this, but maybe we shouldn't." And that's a tough thing for people to do. And so there are so many times where you have sat in a room and you have listened to somebody say something that you know is, you know, not right. And you've said nothing because you're like, "Well, at least it's not me." Right? And I get that there's some self-preservation in that, but I also think that we are at a tipping point where there are more people in the workplace that believe we should be doing something than not, but we're not doing it, because we're still socialized not to. So there is a gap that we have to breach, right? We've gotta get from the thinking that we, you know, the things we're thinking to the doing. And that gap is huge. But once people make that leap and they get on the other side, they go, "Okay, that wasn't so difficult. Why didn't I do this sooner?" You know, all the things that we think are gonna happen don't usually happen. And so we're like, "I could have done this before." But we haven't, and I think that's a lot of what goes on in the mindset and when it comes to what bias is, you know, I also, yes, I did a whole course on unconscious bias, but two things about that. One, I tell people it's a very short course, so you can't watch it and think like, "Oh, I've watched this course on unconscious bias and now I know everything there is to know about unconscious biases." Not gonna happen. It's really just an awareness builder, so I say, yeah, please watch it, right? It's gonna spark some curiosity for you. It's gonna spark some learning. But the other aspect of that is who cares what the different biases are, right? There's 180 different types of biases and heuristics, and different things that we can lean into. But do I know what they all are? Absolutely not. Do I know what they look like? Yes, right, I know what they look like. Can I define them and give you the Oxford Dictionary definition of it? No, and I have no desire to do that. And I don't think any of us have any desire to do that either. So it's not so much about what it is, it's about how it shows up and how we are behaving towards others.
So I love that distinction, because I do think a lot of times, especially for people who have any kind of awareness about bias, so this is often people who work in coaching, or culture building, or HR, they will get hung up on, and this is not everyone, so please if you're in this group, I am not attacking you, I just wanna make that clear. But they can get hung up on the language of it. So that is this specific bias. They wanna pinpoint, you know, and name it, and categorize it specifically, because it's a distraction from the actual behavior, or situation, or what it looks like to your point. And I love that you said that you, who is an clearly an expert in bias and in changing these behaviors, and is committed to doing that are saying the name doesn't matter.
Yeah, I mean, if somebody decides that they're not going to pay you equitably, or hire you because you're a woman, or because you have an accent, do you give a crap what it's called, or do you care about the impact, right?
Right. You care about the impact, the impact is what matters. And so that's where we really have to focus. And you know, I had a client that I had to fire, because we, you know, I really had to say to them, I said, "You care more about the package, right? And how this is going to look than you do about the actual, like what's in it and what the message is that we're bringing." And so that was really frustrating for me, and we finally had to part ways. And you, like you said, a lot of people, that's a distraction, right? It's like, "Let's talk about how we're going to give this message, and where we're going to do it, and what it's going to look like, and when, and all these different things." "But can we talk about the what? Can we talk about what it is that we're doing?" "Oh, no, no, no, we'll get to that later." "No, let's get to that now. Let's talk about that first."
Yeah, so I love that. I just wanna pause and acknowledge that I think that, I think it is so important to focus on that what? And not be distracted by all the shiny things that are ultimately insignificant compared to the actual what and the change. I'm curious how people can identify bias in themselves more than I feel like it's easy for us to look at someone else and go, and I'm not saying it's always this, but I think it's much easier, let's put it that way. For us to look at someone else and go, "Mm, I think that's some bias showing up, even if we don't have a name for it." And I think it is much harder for us to look at ourselves and pull out or examine or, and I'm not saying name, like give it a name, but identify a bias, some bias of some sort.
Right.
Which goes back to what you're talking about around we are socialized in groups, there's groupthink that becomes a part. There's social norms, let alone company norms, let alone group norms, let alone team, let alone whatever the norms are that we just accept. So I think it is a lot harder for us to note these things in ourselves as behaviors that are representative of some sort of bias. And I'm curious how people can start to even acknowledge or identify some of those things for themselves. Because, and I might be way off base, correct me if I'm wrong, I have zero issue being wrong in this. But I think that just for the record, I will fully acknowledge that. But I do think that it's important for people to be open to doing that and figuring out how to do it for themselves in some way.
Yeah, you know, it is, first of all, there has to be a desire to do it.
Amen.
And that.
Amen for that, for all change forever. If you don't want it, it's never gonna happen.
You first have to have a desire to actually want to look into it. And we all have bias, we all do. So then you've gotta, so you have to be able to start with that premise, so I would start there, right? It's like, first you need to have a desire to actually want to be in growth mode and to be open to learning. And then you've got to really be able to say, "Okay, I acknowledge that we all have bias. We includes me, which means I, I have bias, right?" Say the words. And then being able to start to identify it. And I liken it to 'cause you know, I've had people say, especially when the course first came out, I would get these emails from people, what is, you know, "Unconscious bias, how are we supposed to do anything about unconscious bias if it's unconscious?" And you know, you could just, that anger, right? The frustration in there. And I always like to use the example of breathing. Like you're breathing right now, aren't you? Pretty sure you're listening, you're breathing. Until I said it, were you conscious of it? Were you really paying attention to, you know, were you walking around saying, "Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out." No, right? However, there is a point where you can make yourself conscious of your breathing. You can actually practice your breathing, you can meditate, you can take deeper breaths, you can actually stop breathing and hold your breath if you'd like. And navy seals, and I keep picking on them as the example, but I'm sure there's other types of individuals, right? Swimmers who can really hold their breath for a minute, two minutes, even up to three to five minutes, right? I can barely hold my breath for five seconds. That's 'cause I haven't practiced and I don't want, right? Again, there's a desire in there, right? I have no desire to sit around practicing holding my breath. But if I had a need and I realize that it's something I need to do, I would do it, right? And so I think it's the same kind of thing where you can take the unconscious and make it conscious, and you can practice it. And so the same is true for our biases. You have to, once you make the decision that you're going to start paying attention, then you're gonna start noticing. And from the learning and listening to other people around you and hearing what people are saying about like, we already know pay equity is a issue. We already know that women are treated differently in the workplace. We already know that people of color are treated differently in the workplace. People with accents, right? Go through the whole list of things, people with a disability. So start with those things. Ask yourself how comfortable are you having these conversations about these things? What are your thoughts on this? And start from there because even for me, I realized I'm not all that comfortable talking to people with a physical disability, right? I, not that I'm not comfortable, but I'm like, do I, you know, if they're in a wheelchair, you know, I've seen where people will like crouch down to talk to somebody in a wheelchair and I'm like, "Hmm, that doesn't seem like the right thing to do." Right, but it's like,
Right.
what is the, how do you do this, right? So these are the things that we have to realize. What are we uncomfortable doing? How do we get ourselves more comfortable? And also our discomfort leads into biases, because if I'm not comfortable doing something, I'm not going to make myself do it all the time, right? So when I get ready to hire somebody, am I gonna hire somebody who maybe has a physical disability? I might not, right? I might be thinking, "Well, I don't know that they could do this job," right? And that's the kind of thing that we start thinking, and this is how biases happen. So unless we start questioning why we're not interacting with people who are different than us, why we're not comfortable in these different types of situations, and then what are we going to do to improve our knowledge and our behavior in those situations, we can't ever get to actually addressing the bias that we have.
So it's really interesting what you're, I love this, again, I'm just gonna say I love this a thousand times, I bet. But it's really interesting what you're saying, because I see it all the time. And I have certainly done, I mean like all of us, I also have biases and I've certainly done it where I have chosen my own comfort with not having to deal with a situation, or not, you know, knowing if I should bend down to talk to someone in a wheelchair, whatever the case may be, I'll choose my own comfort and then extrapolate that it is that maybe they can't do the job. That's not the specific example, but whatever the justification I put on the situation is because at certain points I have not looked at my own biases and I've just chosen comfort over the discomfort of questioning things. And I think-
Right.
That is so common, so common for people to choose their own comfort over even asking a question, or putting themselves in a situation where, so this is one of the things that I try to do is if I am uncomfortable, even if I'm not sure what the bias, if there's a bias or what the situation is, is I try and challenge myself to put myself in that situation and ask a question, even if it's uncomfortable. So if it's a person in a wheelchair as that example, I will ask them if they, you know, is it weird if I'm standing above, like I might make myself uncomfortable with a question that's not the right question, but I'll try and step into it as opposed to making assumptions or pulling away from the situation.
Right.
And I find it so fast and it's very intentional. By the way, I'm not saying it's a good thing all the time. It's definitely not, but it's intentional. But it was after years of I'm gonna pretend that doesn't exist and just not look at it at all. Like it's not there.
Right. But that's, and that's exactly it, right? Is that if we don't do this, that's how we have to get, come to some awareness, right? We have to notice that we are doing this thing, and then make the decision to do something different. And even if it's not the right thing, so as you said, it might not be the right question to ask, right? It might not be the right tone. And also understanding that just, you might ask the exact right question, and I'm using air quotes here, right? 'Cause there is no right question.
Yeah.
But you might ask a question and think it's the exact right thing to ask. And the person that you were asking it to, they might be having a bad day that day, and they just don't wanna talk to you, and they're in a bad mood and you don't know what's going on with them. And so because they react negatively to you in that moment, you say, "See, this is why I shouldn't do this." All right and then, "I'm never gonna do it again." And you back away instead of being like, 'Maybe it's not me, it is actually this person that just, they just didn't like the question." Which is also their right, right? Maybe I just need to ask a different question next time.
Yeah.
But again, that's another thing that we do. So not only is it hard for us to try the first time, but then if we have a negative reaction, we're done. We're definitely not coming back a second time. And so those are two things that we actually have to get over is like first getting over it the first time, but then second, not retreating if and when there's a negative reaction, because there's usually going to be one 'cause we always say stupid things. Our mouth seems to be quite big enough to insert our foot all the time, so.
The joy of being human right is that we're all, I mean I give the example of asking a question that does not land well because we all do it. Like it's not, we're all gonna make mistakes, none of us is perfect, perfect doesn't exist. It's not a thing. There's no one right question or one right approach to everyone because everyone is an individual. So I always find it fascinating that when it comes to business, business, when it comes to design, when it comes to things that aren't humans, many people are comfortable with iteration, and growth, and learning, and adapting, and moving forward. I'm not saying always, but more people are comfortable with that. But when it comes to themselves and their own behavior, and human interaction that goes out the window. That idea of continuous iteration is like, that doesn't apply when it's me. That doesn't apply-
Right.
In this situation.
Right. Right. And it's the excuses, right? It's like you said earlier, if somebody else makes a mistake, it's like, "Oh, look at what you did." But if I make a mistake, well there was a reason, there's an excuse. I have a, you know, special dispensation, it was a one-time thing, right? We have all the different reasonings and excuses as to why that wasn't problematic when we do it. But we're very quick to jump and take notice when somebody else does it. And I think even using the word mistake, you know, is problematic because, going about, trying something, it's not a mistake to try something and to get it wrong. It's more of a mistake to not try it all. So I think that we also just need to even reframe that language, because yeah, you are going to absolutely say things to people that are gonna rub them the wrong way. It happens, right? People do it to you all the time. And I think if we can learn to give more grace, rather than getting upset immediately saying to somebody, "You know what, what were you trying to convey there?" Because what you said didn't quite come across that well to me and I'm gonna give you a moment to maybe try again." Right, but we're so quick to also just jump and say, "Oh no, no, no, no." Right? We're upset with a person immediately. And of course, depending upon what it is, rightly so. But I think we also need to, as a society on both, like on the give and the take, we have to be willing to try and we also have to be willing to give some leeway when others are trying with us.
I absolutely agree with that. And I think it requires a level of emotional regulation, especially I love that you're already laughing. Especially if you're on the receiving end of that. I mean, I think on both ends, but I think especially as a starting point on the receiving end of that. It requires a level of emotional regulation that not everyone has to be able to pause and say, "You know, can you explain what your intention was, or tell me a little bit about what you meant by that." And not immediately go, "That's a offensive!" I mean not hope not that's, but whatever the defensive, or-
Right.
Deflective or whatever situation is, and I think with emotional regulation, you also have to have a desire to regulate your emotions and to even be aware that that is a thing that maybe there's an opportunity for growth for yourself, which is an added layer of some of these conversations.
Right, well, and I think it goes back to the very, very beginning where we said that many leaders have not been taught. And so there has been an absence of leadership development programs that provide this level of education to individuals. I don't know why there has been this thought process that by virtue of me tapping you on the shoulder and calling you manager, all of a sudden, ta-da! You will now understand how to manage people without any kind of education and support and resources. And so again, when we talk about how we've been socialized, right? There's this expectation that you are now manager, you should know how to do it. So now it's even harder for you as a manager to ask for resources, because that will make me a failure if I have to ask for things and I have to ask for support. Well, so-and-so didn't ask for it and they seem to be doing just fine. So I can't ask because that's gonna make me look weak, or it's gonna make me look inferior. And I think we really need to create a much, you know, a culture of learning within organizations where no, this is something we all need to do. I laughed when you said it, you know, emotional regulation because when we get called in to, you know, to work on DEI initiatives, I'm always think what are we working with here? Do we have any kind of a foundation to begin with? Because how do you expect us to talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion when we don't have a foundation of empathy, of conflict management, of communication and transparency and trust, right? If those things aren't there, we can't get to this 2.0 that you want us to come in and do, because we're now, we're trying to build a house on a foundation that doesn't exist.
Absolutely, and It's, I think that, and I'm gonna say this noting that this may not be your experience, but I have seen quite often organizations that don't have that foundation feel like they have to check a DEI box and bring in consultants, or work on diversity, equity, and inclusion without ever addressing, or thinking to address that foundation. It's not even an awareness because that's not the thing that's gonna quote look good to the outside world. It's gonna quote, look good to investors, or whatever the case may be. And it's a complete mismatch in my eyes. And again, that's why I say I don't know if this is your experience. In my, when I've seen it, I always think the, even if you get the best DEI consultants in here, none of this can last without these foundations in place. It's not meaningful or real.
Absolutely, and that's why, I mean, we are now very picky about who we work with, and as I said with that client, you know, we talked about the fact that what they cared more about was the method of delivery than the actual message. And so there is a place where, you know, we go through a vetting of potential clients that come in and, you know, it always sort of works itself out. You know, I had a potential client that wanted me to come in and provide unconscious bias education. I said, and I purposely talked about this, because I looked them up of course before we started speaking and I saw that they were a Christian-based like media company. And so I said, "Well, unconscious bias includes," and I went through various dimensions of diversity, like we're gonna be talking about race, we're gonna be talking about ethnicity, we're gonna talk about gender, we're gonna be talking about LGBTQ, you know, concerns and we're gonna be talking about, you know, disability, and I was like, wait for it. You know, you can always do like the 3, 2, 1. And she goes, "Well, you know, I don't think that we need to tackle any of the LGBTQ issues." You know, she's like, "Could you think you could do the presentation without touching on that?" And I was like, "No, I don't think I can."
Yeah, that.
That's gonna be a no for me.
Yeah.
I was like, "How do you even?" I was like, "I think you need to go back to the drawing board and really think about what you mean if you say you wanna create an inclusive workplace culture, but you don't wanna include a certain section of your population." It was like, "I'm not sure how that's supposed to work."
It's not inclusion, it's, I mean I'm, I wish I was surprised, I'm not surprised by this. I wish I was surprised to hear this, but it is, it's that unwillingness to even look at something that's outside of my own specific story or presumed assumptions about the world.
Yeah.
This is not a thing that is real in my story and my life, and my belief system, therefore I'm not even willing to look at, or talk about, or address it as something, and-
Right, I was like, why are they even reaching, you know, at some point I was like, "What about my website made them think that I would, I would actually do a session like that." I was like, "I think I need to go redo my marketing."
It is that moment where you're like, "Wait, what's the lesson in here for me to not have to do this thing?" I totally appreciate that, I totally appreciate that. And I appreciate you sharing the example, because I think it is that great example of the foundation matters and if you're not willing to look at all aspects of what inclusion actually is, which means you're not excluding specific groups, then you're not at the right place for any kind of conversation about this. You have to go back to the drawing board.
And some organizations might not be, right? So, and here's what I'll say to those who were listening who are in an organization but is not ready, that's fine. You don't have to be ready, you never have to be ready. It is not my job to drag you kicking and screaming into reality. But what's gonna happen is the individuals who work for you are not going to stay. Because the other part of what I'm constantly telling, you know, people in general is don't stay in an organization where you are beating your head against a brick wall, 'cause all it's gonna do is make your forehead bloody. So you know, this is not the place to be, and this is why we had the great resignation, right? You know, I like to call it the great reevaluation, because people were reevaluating their priorities and going, "Wait a minute, what am I doing wasting my life in this company? This is not working for me, I'm out." And so for organizations that don't wanna change, you absolutely don't have to, but just know that your time, that there's a ticking clock on your ability to continue to conduct business as you do.
Yeah. And I think that clock is getting accelerated with the younger generations and the younger people coming into the workplace, 'cause they have, even the most conservative of them, the most whatever you wanna call it of them have a far different mindset than some of the structures and ways of doing things that are currently in place in some of those organizations. And they won't stay if they don't see, you know, this is terrible 'cause this is the story of my life where I read an article or a study something, I never remember where it came from because that's the ADHD brain. But they were talking about that with the younger generations with whatever, the under 30s I think was the point of it is that their idea of, their assumption of equity and acceptance of different beliefs, people, whatever is just the foundation of that is so different than the people who are 60 plus as an example just because the different timeframes that they've been raised in.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
That's gonna be some friction.
Oh no, absolutely. I mean I have a 21 year old and a 20 year old, well she's 19.
I'll 20, it's fine. We won't know.
And the conversations that we have even, you know, and like they were sometimes are trying to school me on the, they're like, "Mom are you sure that you're an equity consultant?" Because I'm like, "Wow, ooh geez the burn." You know?
Yes.
But they are so on it and because it's just always been ingrained, right?
Yeah.
Unlike for me, even I had to learn a lot of this, right? And I think that's the thing that for people who are frustrated and struggling in this right now, it's because you're not getting with the times, right? You're not learning, you haven't kept up your pace of learning. And I get it in the past we really didn't have to, and so there isn't a habit of learning. But now there really needs to be. And so if you want to be a leader that is going to be able to, you know, I think the crisis you need to be able to lead yourself through is your own, because there is a crisis of leadership right now, and if you don't know what it's gonna take to be able to, you know, keep you as a great leader in an organization, we have a problem.
Hmm, ain't that the truth. Yeah, we do have a crisis of leadership, and it shows up in every way in organizations, and it shows up at every level and it affects everyone in an organization because the culture is affected by a crisis of leadership. And I think I appreciate you calling it out that way, 'cause I think it's important to talk about.
Absolutely.
So before we wrap up, I always ask the question, is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanna make sure we talk about, or something that you wanna emphasize inside of the conversation we have, or nothing at all? You can also say I'm good and complete the way things are.
You know, I do think I wanna go back to what I said earlier about that gap, right? Between thinking that we need to do something, right? Or knowing that we need to do something, and then actually doing something. And that gap can seem like the largest chasm that we have to get over. And I believe that that is why we're still struggling with this conversation, because a lot of what we have been doing is activating the learning in test taking side of our brain. We have been, you know, and I use the example all the time of bike riding. If you compared DEI to bike riding and you said, "Okay, we've been going to workshops, we've been attending town halls, we've been listening to webinars, we've been going to conferences and nothing has changed." And why is that? Because we've learned, like we said, the definitions of things, we've learned the mechanics of things, we've learned the theory of it, but if you liken it to a bike, we haven't learned how to actually get on a bike, right? We can take the test and we can pass the test, and we know all the pieces about the bike, but the end of the day we still can't actually get on the bike and ride it. And that's kind of what's happening with us is that we have been doing all of this knowledge building and growth, and yes, I did just say we need to get into a culture of learning. So I wanna be cognizant that yes, we still need to do that and we need help to bridge that gap to get to the actual doing. And so we've actually been working on content that helps with that and embedding actionable things into what we're doing as like a guide and creating a sandbox of sorts for people to be able to come and play, right? And come and try things out in a non-judgmental space, in a place where there's not gonna be shame, or cancel culture, or any of that. It's like you get to come and try stuff out and practice this because then once you've done it a couple of times you're like, "Oh, I could do this." And then you can take it out into the world and go do it. So we're really excited about that.
Love that. I think that's a really cool and necessary step for anything like this because the fear of that chasm and that gap and what could happen. By the way, our fears are always so much worse than the actual reality. It's just our brains, negativity, bias is a negativity bias. Let's assume that's a bias, I just didn't just make it up. But that negativity leaning towards lizard brain piece is real and we make those fears horrendously huge, and we don't try, and we don't step into that sandbox. And I think that the opportunity for people to practice these things and to rewire those parts of their brains, air quote rewire, so that they're disproving that negativity in a safe way is super important, because that chasm is breachable, it is possible to close it. It just takes a bit of courage and a bit of willingness to step over it and try. And I love that you're putting together a safe space for people to practice some of that. And I'm excited to see what that looks like.
Yeah, so hopefully people will come and hang out with us and come and play and you know, 'cause as adults, we also don't get to play anymore, everything's so serious. I don't know about you, but I'm tight. I am overloaded with responsibilities, and I'd like a little bit of levity and this doesn't have to be really awful, dreary hard work, we can make it fun.
Yeah, so where can people find you and look at maybe playing with you?
So they actually, our website is reworkwork.com. But if you go to learn.reworkwork.com, it'll take you specifically to our little portal where you're able to access lots of free resources, as well as paid resource, which is the unconscious inclusion course. But we have been working on, where we're constantly adding more and more free resources in there as well so people can come and play.
Amazing, that link will be in the show notes as well for anyone listening or watching this. And Stacey, it has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you, I really appreciate your time today and all of your insight. And I hope that, let me rephrase that. I know that this is such an important conversation for the people who have been listening or watching, so thank you for being as open and willing to share as you have been. I do really appreciate it.
Thank you, I appreciate the invitation.
Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.