Leadership advisor Stacey Gordon returns to unpack why treating DEI as a separate "initiative" is exactly why so many companies have abandoned it, arguing instead that inclusion should be embedded into every leadership decision rather than bolted on. And why putting people first will give you the profitability and productivity you seek.
Leadership advisor and DEI expert Stacey Gordon returns to Leading Through Crisis to explain why diversity, equity, and inclusion should never be treated as a bolt-on "initiative," and why that mistake is exactly why so many companies have abandoned their DEI programs.
Stacey and host Céline Williams dig into why so many leaders struggle with flexibility and self-awareness, how communication breakdowns between managers and teams happen even when everyone has the best intentions, and why "inclusive leadership" is really just... good leadership.
They also unpack the biases quietly shaping hiring decisions, why leaders rarely get real feedback about how their teams actually experience them, and Stacey's free Leadership Reality Check quiz for anyone ready to find out the gap between how they think they lead and how their team sees them.
This conversation might just challenge how you think about communication, feedback, and what DEI actually means.
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Stacey Gordon is a globally recognized keynote speaker, leadership advisor, and workplace culture strategist who helps organizations build inclusive, high-performing workplaces as they navigate today’s evolving legal, social, and business landscape.
As the founder of Rework Work, Stacey partners with executive leaders, people managers, and HR and legal teams to strengthen talent systems, leadership capability, and workplace culture— relying on a foundation of legally sound, people-first approaches. Her work focuses on debiasing systems, developing inclusive leadership behaviors, and creating cultures of fairness, belonging, and accountability that benefit everyone.
Stacey is a frequent keynote speaker at HR, talent, and leadership conferences worldwide and has served as an adjunct professor at several universities. She is also a trusted voice in the broader business conversation, having provided subject matter expertise to Harvard Business Review, SHRM, Fast Company, Forbes, NPR, and BBC Radio.
She is the author of UNBIAS, a widely used resource for leaders globally, and the creator of the unconscious bias course on LinkedIn Learning, which was the #1 most-watched course on the platform in 2021, has been translated into multiple languages and has reached nearly two million learners worldwide.
You can learn more about Stacey and her work and grab the Leadership Reality Check assessment at reworkwork.com. You can also find her on Substack (https://reworkwork.substack.com/), LinkedIn (Linkedin.com/in/staceygordon), and Instagram (@ReworkWork).
See also CDO Action coalition at https://cdoaction.com.
Stacey Gordon: [00:00:00] Things have changed, the world has changed, and unfortunately, it feels like we are leading through crisis every day.
Céline Williams: Indeed
Stacey Gordon: It's like you wake up and you check the news and you think, "What fresh hell do we need to lead through today?"
Judith: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
Céline Williams: My guest today is a familiar face and a returning guest, and that is Stacey Gordon, who is a globally recognized leadership advisor and unapologetic evangelist for inclusion at work. [00:01:00] Welcome back, Stacey
Stacey Gordon: Thank you. Thank you. So excited to be back.
Céline Williams: It's been a few years, so I'm very excited to have you back. I always love having fresh conversations with familiar faces. Because it has been a few years, I'm gonna ask the question to allow you to kind of update or share your current thoughts on the title of the podcast, which is Leading Through Crisis, and that phrase, Leading Through Crisis.
What does that mean for you now, or what comes up for you now? Because I imagine things have changed in the past few years
Stacey Gordon: Things have changed, the world has changed, and unfortunately, it feels like we are leading through crisis every day.
Céline Williams: Indeed
Stacey Gordon: It's like you wake up and you check the news and you think, "What fresh hell do we need to lead through today?" You know? Like, how is this going to impact my business? And I think the real crisis is that we do not know.
There is [00:02:00] so much uncertainty that it makes it really hard to plan. And so being able to lead, and be flexible in uncertainty, is a skill that unfortunately too few leaders possess.
Céline Williams: I absolutely agree with that. I, I... There is... Look, I think that crisis brings out the worst in people sometimes because of the reaction. Our brains go into the reaction, right? And so we limit what we can focus on. And rigidity, so that lack of flexibility, is such a common reaction. It's trying to find the one thing that is going to work or doing the one thing that they think is going to work, and crisis, crisis is not rigid. not one thing
Stacey Gordon: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's the impact too. I think it's looking at, like you said, the rigidity comes in because people [00:03:00] want to feel as though they've got a handle on everything, and so they want the one answer, right? The magic pill, the wand that's gonna just fix it and make it all good.
And I think that we've moved from expecting leaders to know everything to expecting leaders to learn what is necessary to be flexible and agile in these moments. And we are expecting leaders to be open and listen to others around them and collaborate, right? Because there's gonna be other people in the room who have information, and it's not about being smarter than each other.
It's about using the pieces that we each hold to be able to create a clear picture
Céline Williams: I wish I saw more of that, truly. I mean that in the, the, um... I love that, that that is more of the expectation, [00:04:00] and I think often it's we or leaders themselves still expect to be the ones that have the answer and be able to solve the problem, and I wish there was more of the let's come together and we all have different pieces of this solution, and we all have different perspectives, and together we can navigate this crisis or figure it out.
I think a lot of, and this may touch on some of, you know, the things that you are, that you evangelize and that you, that the work that you're doing, but a lot of time it's still, there's still leadership teams, there's still leaders who surround themselves with people who think exactly like they do at the best and worst of times, and they're not actually getting different perspectives.
It's not people coming with different, different ideas. It really becomes you, leader, solve this because you're ex- that's the expectation. Does that
Stacey Gordon: Yeah.
Céline Williams: make sense the [00:05:00] way that-
Stacey Gordon: It, it does, and I think, though, that it's because, again, we're looking at it as though there is, you know, a problem to solve that has the answer. There is no the answer. There is a spectrum
Céline Williams: Yes.
Stacey Gordon: answers, right? And the idea is which of those answers might be the best in this moment, and understanding that down the road we may look back and go, "Oh, you know what?
That probably wasn't the right, but it was the best in the moment."
Céline Williams: Yes
Stacey Gordon: And I think that because we are so... we've somehow boxed ourselves into a corner to where we want to be able to turn around and point a finger at somebody when it doesn't work out and say, "Well, it's because you made that decision.
This is a problem now," instead of looking at it and saying, "Well, that decision was made in that moment with this information that we had, with that data that was available to us, and it seemed like the best way to go. And if we were wrong, now we need to pivot." So [00:06:00] again, the agility that comes into play to be able to say, "Okay, well, we got halfway there, or a quarter of the way there, or we went too far, and we need to come back," and being able to adjust, and there is not enough room in the solutions for adjustment.
Céline Williams: There's often no room in the solutions for adjustment, which is the wildest part, is that we don't leave the space for that to happen because information changes. It's the old idea that, like when you change your mind once you've made a decision, that is weak or now you're indecisive.
Stacey Gordon: Yes
Céline Williams: What? What? Why do we cons- why are we perpetuating that in any way, shape, or form?
Stacey Gordon: Yeah. It, it is, I don't know why, but it's what we've done. And that's the other thing. It's what we've always done, so that's what we've always done, so we're gonna continue to do this even though it's stupid, even though it doesn't make sense in the moment, even though we understand that this is probably going to cause us more problems down the [00:07:00] road later, we're gonna do it this way because that's the way we've always done it.
And I remember getting into an argument with a supervisor many, many years ago; this was probably 20 years ago. But she was upset with me because I had said to her that I communicated with a client, right? And I think I said I emailed them or something, and then maybe later in the conversation I said, "Well, I spoke to the client."
Right? But in my mind, it was just, I was communicating, so it wasn't that I was like... It, it wasn't about the method of communication; it was about what I said that was important. And all she kept harping on was, "Well, you said that you spoke to them. Well, did you speak to them or did you email them? Well, which did you do?"
And it was like, that doesn't matter. The point is, I communicated to the client this information. This is the information that they got, and I need to talk to you about this information. And we could never get there because she was so stuck on the fact that I said, you know, I think I... B- because just in the heat of the moment, you know when you say like, "I...
Oh, I said to this person," well, when you say, "I [00:08:00] said to the person," I don't mean literally I said to the person, I just meant I communicated to them.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Stacey Gordon: And she was just stuck on this idea that, you know, I was lying, and that if I couldn't be clear about my method of communication, then there was no way that she could trust me with the client communication.
Céline Williams: Stuck on something that is not relevant, that is not the core of anything. So I... The, the q- the other question, the real question that I was gonna ask inside of what you just said is, how... And recognizing there is never one way that this works, right? So I'm not implying that, Stacy Gordon, you have the one solution to all of this that you are going to share and solve all the
Stacey Gordon: What are you talking about? Of course, I have the solution.
Céline Williams: I mean, great, if you do, let's do this. Let's solve all the world's problems right now. But in case that's not the tr- the, the reality, when you're talking about teams and, and, and leaders and, and situations where [00:09:00] they are, there's a lack of flexibility, there's a lack of adapt- ability to adapt in the moment, what are some things, a thing...
How does, how can we change that? And I'm saying we, as in, like, the world of corporate, the world of leaders, the world of teams. How can we start to change that, so that there is more flexibility, there is more adaptation, there is more, you know, recognition of change, or what needs to happen?
Stacey Gordon: Yeah, I think there's a need for leaders specifically. I mean, we all need to do this, right? But we're picking on leaders right now because I would say you don't get the big bucks 'cause of your pretty face, right? You get the big bucks because you have the additional responsibility, and it's literally your role to do this, so
Céline Williams: Yes
Stacey Gordon: But I do think that everyone can benefit from self-reflection, and it is really to be able to understand, am I showing up in the way that I think I am? So when I'm [00:10:00] working with clients, one of the things that I'm looking at is: you say you're open, right? You're an o- you're open, you're transparent, you're clear in your communication.
Your team says something different. Your team says, "I didn't get that information. I was unclear on what to do. I wasn't sure of the strategy." Well, which is it? Right? There's a breakdown there, and the leader needs to be able to self-reflect to say, "Well, was I clear? Did I communicate in a way that was going to make it so that they've understood what was expected of them?"
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Stacey Gordon: "D- was I transparent? Did I really e- explain my thought process for this? Did I provide them with the information and the clarity that would allow them to do their jobs?" Because I find 98% of the time when I'm talking with leaders, they will tell me, "Absolutely, I did this and this and this." And then I will go talk to [00:11:00] their direct reports, and they'll be like, "Uh-uh, no, he didn't.
That didn't happen. We never got that information." "Well, if they had said that, then I would've known." And I'm like, neither one of these people is lying,
Céline Williams: No?
Stacey Gordon: right? But there is a breakdown in communication. And so a lot of what I'm doing right now, and this is what I've been trying to explain to people for almost two decades, is that DEI is not about, you know, promoting Black people over white people or ensuring that people w- with a disability get, you know, special treatment, right?
It is about understanding that everybody who comes into the workplace has different ways of working. And as a leader, it is your job to be able to work with all of those people, which requires you to have agility and flexibility to work with all of these different kinds of people to... so they can work to the best of their ability.
And if you can't do that as a [00:12:00] leader, what happens is most people are very rigid, and they're like, "Well, this is how I lead, so all of you have to get on my page, and I need you to, you know, follow me and do what I do," instead of it being the other way around. So I think that is, the number one thing that l- leaders need to be able to do, is to have that self-reflection to say, "Have I actually heard and listened to the voices at the table?
Do I have different voices at the table to listen to in the first place? And then once they're there, am I listening to them?" Right? "Have I provided them with clarity? Have I provided them with information? Have I provided them with resources? Have I followed up and ensured that all of these things are happening?"
Right? So, I mean, on and on. And for most leaders, they put out a directive and then go, "Go do," and then they sit back and are wondering why the project didn't happen in the way that they expected it to.
Céline Williams: Yeah. That's a really [00:13:00] important point to emphasize: there are... what I hear inside of what you said is that, y- you know, leaders have expectations about whatever they're directing folks to do. Those expectations aren't being met And yet the, to get to the point where you change how you share those expectations or ch- fi- figure out who took what from what you actually said or directed, that is so often not happening, and leaders end up in a cycle where they are repeatedly like, "These things aren't happening way I want, the way I'm expecting, and, and yet I'm not changing anything about it. That's a them problem, not a me problem."
Stacey Gordon: Right. Yeah. So a lot of the work I'm doing is helping leaders to start to recognize that and change the way that they are interacting with their teams.[00:14:00]
Céline Williams: Yeah
Stacey Gordon: And it's, it comes from, I mean, again, I, I lean on so much of my own experience and bring that into the workplace because I see it mirrored.
And I, I had a s- I had a supervisor who, same thing. We would go into these meetings, right? We'd have a staff meeting. I would sit and listen, and I had a coworker who would also sit and listen, right? So it's like 10 or 15 of us in this staff meeting. We would leave that meeting. She'd come into my office, and I'd go, "So he said I need to do this, this, and this, and you need to do this and this, and we have to work together on this and this."
And she's like, "No, that's not what he said. He said that we need to do..." Right? And I'd be like, "No, I didn't... That's not what... Look at my notes. I wrote down what..." We would have two different experiences, and we sat in the same room. And then we would have to go back and say, "Okay, hold up. E- either you heard it wrong, or I heard it wrong, or he didn't say it right at all, and [00:15:00] both of us are wrong."
And usually, it was some combination of all three of that. We would always have to have these follow-up meetings. And so again, it's not that... I, I think when we think about communicating, sometimes it's clear as mud, right?
Céline Williams: Yes
Stacey Gordon: And you have to take that information in. You have to absorb it. You have to listen to it.
And then you've got to, like, be able to rethink and go, "All right. What I heard was this. What you said was this." And even in the moment, everyone says, "Well, repeat back what you heard," right? In that moment, yeah, you can do it. But when you leave, and you reflect, and you really start to think a little bit about, "Okay, now that I've really gotta do this work, I'm sitting here by myself in my office.
How do I implement this?" Then you've got 10 more questions. You're like, "But wait.
Céline Williams: Always
Stacey Gordon: But how did I... So who's gonna... But where are we gonna... And how
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Stacey Gordon: Are we..."
Céline Williams: Yeah. And process these things so differently, and this is that, like, [00:16:00] you know, to what you were saying earlier about this idea of DEI is, is, is really ab- I mean, I am gonna oversimplify it, but it's diversity in all of the ways, of thought, of communication, of all of the ways. It's not just one thing, right?
It's not hire more of these people or whatever the, you know, whatever the idea. We, h- fill in the gap. This is w- this is where you start to recognize that the more... Everyone communicates differently. People are gonna need different processing times. They're going to have different questions. That is where, when you have more experience with people from diverse backgrounds, with diverse perspectives, with diverse communication styles, one would hope that you start to learn how to communicate.
You start to improve as a result because you're not just talking to the same person who thinks the same way you [00:17:00] do, constantly to assume this all makes sense
Stacey Gordon: Yes, exactly. A- and it's, and it's, it's the constant check-in as well, and I think checking in to ensure that pe- for understanding is different than micromanaging
Céline Williams: Tell me more about... I 100% agree. Tell me more about that
Stacey Gordon: Well, I mean, I think people think like if, it, you know, get frustrated and say, "Well, if I have to explain every little thing to you, I might as well do it myself," right? You have that attitude. And then you have the person who wants to, you know, really, all, every single step, "Well, before you do that, check in with me.
Before you do that, check in with me. Like, you, how can they get anything done? And so again, it's like, it's that management style and u-understanding that, that neither one of those management styles is going to produce the result that you want. And continuing to do it in that way, it's like you, as a manager, have to understand how to manage people.
And I mean, there are studies. [00:18:00] We know that managers do not get proper management training. It, it is, it is lacking. And it's not to say because managers are bad people. It's just, I'm sorry, but you're bad managers, and that's because you haven't been taught. Especially, you haven't been taught because it's not as if you got to watch a really good manager on your way up, because you probably had a bad manager, too.
And so if you did learn anything, it was more bad habits
Céline Williams: I'm gonna ask a question based on what you just said, and then I'm going to take us in a slightly different direction afterwards. But I think what you just said is important. And if someone is listening and they're thinking, like, "What is the one thing I can do that will make a difference that I probably wasn't taught as a manager and a leader?
What is the one thing that I should know or be aware of or learn?" What would you suggest they start with?
Stacey Gordon: I actually created a little quiz, and I call it the Leadership Reality Check.
Céline Williams: Great name
Stacey Gordon: It's [00:19:00] technically called the Leadership Awareness Profile, but it's a reality check.
Céline Williams: Yeah,
Stacey Gordon: And the idea is, do I, as a leader, know what my team thinks about me? And just thinking about that, right? Because most of us don't bother to really sit and think about what the team thinks about us. And understanding, like, so if I say, you know, "Do I communicate well?
Am I transparent in my communications? Am I clear in my communications? Am I listening to all the voices at, at the table?" Now, if you ask, of course, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm a great manager. What are you talking about?" Right? But if you had to really just sit and think about that for a moment and answer those questions, and then answer the question, would your team agree with your assessment?
Now you have to think about that again and go, "Huh, I don't know. What would they say?" Right? And based upon those answers, it gives you a profile that gives you a few sort of tips to really start thinking about how can you [00:20:00] do a better self-assessment. And it's based off of, some research around self-other agreement, which I won't go into, but there's a lot of research around the importance of that.
And there aren't a lot of, um, assessments out there that do that, right? That really make you think.
Céline Williams: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. We'll definitely link that in the show notes for anyone listening, um, if you're okay with it, 'cause I think that's a really interesting assessment for folks to take or to be aware of. And now the slight course adjustment, not correction, 'cause that, but an adjustment because I wanted to, I wanted to make sure we get into some of, um, the work that you're doing and your thoughts around DEI because I think it is...
It is such an incredibly important conversation. And there are so many assumptions around DEI, DEI initiatives, what they're gonna cost, how they're gonna work or not work, that I don't [00:21:00] think are really based in reality much of the time. And I'd love to hear your thoughts and takes on this because a lot of, I'm not saying the only work you do, but a lot of the work that you do and have done, as you mentioned, for 20 years, is around DEI and trying to change, it sounds like, some of the assumptions that are out there about it
Stacey Gordon: Absolutely. I think that the biggest thing is that every time I hear the word DEI initiative, I cringe, right? Because you shouldn't have any. Like...
Céline Williams: Yeah
Stacey Gordon: I'm gonna pause it 'cause I have to really think. Like it, it gets me frustrated.
Céline Williams: Yes. I can imagine
Stacey Gordon: I had a client- it was a CEO who brought me in, wanted me to do all this work, and they had 10 pillars for their organization, right? Which already was a lot. I was like, "That's a lot of pillars." But I said, "Okay, that's great.
You've got these 10 pillars." And they brought me in 'cause they said, "We, we need to make sure we're, we're, you know, also [00:22:00] addressing DEI." I said, "That's great. So w- where's that gonna go?" They're like, "Well, I think it... We kinda have to do these 10 pillars first, and then we can do DEI." And I was like, "Hmm, no. So what you're gonna do, you're not gonna make it an additional thing.
You have 10 pillars." I was like, "In every single pillar, we have to look at where is the inclusion in this? Where is the equity in that?" Right? That's what we actually have to do: every single pillar has to be measured against that. And if we don't have a way to do that, then the pillar needs to change slightly.
It needs to be amended, right? That's what happens. No, we're not gonna wait a year or two years through your cycle for you to go through your 10 pillars without thinking about DEI, and then at the end go, "Okay, let's think about DEI."
Céline Williams: Yeah. It's so interesting 'cause I hear that story, and it immediately makes me think that would be a reason that [00:23:00] people's assumptions about DEI, right? Like, we're doing this thing, and then we have to do this other thing because of DEI to create a special whatever, and then they start to create stories about that. And, and I, by the way, I'm not saying this organization, these leaders had bad intentions.
That's not what I mean. But it perpetuates a story of it has to be a project, or it has to be an initiative, or it's this separate thing as opposed to
Stacey Gordon: It should not be an extra, it should not be an add-on, it should not be a bolt-on. Because when you do that, that's what makes it so easy for you to pluck it right off. This is why so many of your organizations right now have lost their DEI initiatives, right? Because they were initiatives to begin with.
They weren't embedded in the fabric. You cannot take something out if it's embedded into the fabric. It's easy to pluck it off if it's just been kind of sitting on top and it really wasn't necessary to begin with, right? It was [00:24:00] just this nice little pretty thing over in the corner. It looked great on your public statements to be able to say that, you know, "This is what we're doing."
And so as soon as there's even a whiff of, "Oh, maybe we shouldn't be doing it," we take it off. Now, why do you think you shouldn't be doing it? Because you weren't doing it right to begin with. So when we look at the legalities of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and that's the other thing, I need everybody to stop saying DEI, and I need you to actually think about what that stands for.
It is diversity, equity, inclusion. Please explain to me what you have a problem with when it comes to making sure that your workplace is a diverse place. Please explain to me why you don't want your policies to be equitable. You're fine with women making less money than men. You're fine with, white women making more money than Black women.
You're fine with people with disabilities not being a- you know, being paid less than everybody else in your organization. You [00:25:00] okay with that? 'Cause that seems like a problem to me. That seems like that would be illegal, right?
Céline Williams: Yes
Stacey Gordon: these are the things we actually have to think about, and when you can just boil it down to a- an acronym and an initiative, then whatever you were doing in your workplace wasn't working anyway, and it wasn't being done correctly.
When I come into an organization, the question I always ask is, "Why are you doing this work? What is, what are the next steps going to be? What outcomes are you expecting? How does this pertain to your, your goals," right? "And w- how do you ensure that it is being embedded in that?" And if you're not an- asking those questions, then we have a problem.
Céline Williams: How often do organizations actually have answers to those questions when you ask them? Before you've asked them, right? Like, they're, they're like, "Oh, yeah,
Stacey Gordon: Or before?
Céline Williams: Yeah, like, you ask the question, they're like, "Oh, we can definitely tell you what the outcomes we're [00:26:00] looking for."
We have c- they have clarity when you ask that quest- or when you ask those questions
Stacey Gordon: Um, can I, can I plead the fifth?
Céline Williams: Yes, you can. But that's why I'm asking, because they are important questions, I would assume that they're not being thought about or asked internally until you come in, Stacy, and you ask them
Stacey Gordon: In a lot of organizations, they're not thinking about it. And, and I say that with all respect because there are a number of wonderful DEI practitioners embedded in organizations,
Céline Williams: For
Stacey Gordon: and they are doing the best they can with what they've been given. But when you have been given nothing, right? You cannot turn ship around as a one-woman or a one-man show when you have no resources, when you are not given the influence and the power that is necessary to do what needs to be done.
I, uh, you know, it, [00:27:00] it's, it's no wonder that we've gotten where we are today. The other part of that is that we are in a place where diversity, equity, and inclusion are things that should be embedded into the workplace in a way that makes work work for all. That has been the Rework Work, which is my company, right?
That has been our motto since 2016 when I changed the name of my company to Rework Work. It was how do we make workplaces work for all? It's always been all. White men, Black men, Asian men, disabilities, right? You name it, everybody.
Céline Williams: Yes
Stacey Gordon: issue is that in some instances, people have looked at DEI as, "Oh, this is just a way to promote Black people."
If that was happening in a workplace, that is not DEI,
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Stacey Gordon: right? Or we're, we're only looking at how do we promote women. If that is happening in your workplace, that is not DEI,
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Stacey Gordon: right?
Céline Williams: Yeah
Stacey Gordon: so unfortunately, these things have been [00:28:00] conflated and, you know, compared, and they've all been put together to say, "Oh, this is all DEI."
It is not, right? In the same way that you have, accountants, right, CPAs who have taken licensing exams to become certified to be accountants, right? Those accountants, how many of them out there in the world have been thrown in jail for embezzlement, for fraud, right? Enough. Quite a few of them.
Céline Williams: Yep
Stacey Gordon: Did we turn around and say, "Scrap CPA requirements. We don't need an exam. We don't need CPAs. There's no reason for us to do accounting anymore. Let's just throw the whole thing out because of a few bad apples." No, we wouldn't. But yet, and still, that's what's happening with DEI.
Céline Williams: Well, yes. It is absolutely what's happening with DEI, and it's so interesting because I do think [00:29:00] it is easy, air quote, by the way, not right, not agreeing with this, I... To be clear. But I think it is easy for people to justify it when it is a DEI initiative and they are not thinking about it w- in the, in, under the actual umbrella of diversity, equity, and inclusion. when you put it under the DEI, they, it becomes easier for them just to, to, to scrap it, to your point. To say, like, "Nope, doesn't matter." It's, there was the backlash that happened at a certain point around, equal opportunity and all of the language that was there, and there was all of the, the, you know, we have to throw all that out and all... Again, similar thing, where it's like, well, something didn't work there. It was taken advantage of. Whatever the situation was, I'm not presuming to know or understand it. But just trash it all because under that umbrella, easy to do.
I don't even know. [00:30:00] doesn't happen the same way.
Stacey Gordon: Well, it has a broader understanding and it has, you know, an actual certification board and a body and all those things, right, which DEI does not have.
Céline Williams: Yeah
Stacey Gordon: thing about DEI, though, I was like, I don't even know if it necessarily needs that because again, when I was working with individuals and we talk about how do we, you know, do inclusive recruiting, I got to a point where I was like, "Well, let's stop talking about inclusive recruiting."
You're either doing in- recruiting well or you're not. If you're doing it well, you're ensuring it's inclusive.
Céline Williams: Yes
Stacey Gordon: If you're not making sure it's inclusive, then you are not doing recruiting right. So I don't even need to put the word inclusive in there. It is embedded in how we recruit. It's the same with leadership.
I don't need to talk about you being an inclusive leader. I just need you to be a decent, good leader who actually cares about making work work for all the people in your team. If you are doing that, you are a good and successful leader. If you are not doing that, you are not a good or successful leader.
Céline Williams: that, [00:31:00] that is so important for people to hear is that you are not doing inclusive recruiting, which is such odd language. You're not being uninclusive. How about just be good humans who are looking at humans as humans? Which regardless of anything else, if that's a starting point, guess what? By default it's going to be inclusive
Stacey Gordon: And it does require, right, some training. It does require some re- some behavior shifts, some mindset shifts because the other part of it, which nobody wants to talk about, and this is why it was so easy for DEI to go away, because nobody wants to talk about the underlying racism and homophobia and sexism and misogyny, right, that everything is built on.
So when we say be... And I'll, I'll go back to recruiting as an example, be a good recruiter, right? Well, everyone wants to say, "Well, yeah, I'm a, I'm a good recruiter," because we are, we are operating off of the standards and everything that we have used in the [00:32:00] past, but those standards are based in sexism and misogyny and capitalism and all of these other things that are creating very skewed outcomes.
So in order for us to actually be inclusive, we do have to change our mindsets a little bit and recognize that, oh, especially right now, if you are a recruiter, raise your hand, right? You are getting... You put up a, a job ad today, tomorrow you have 1,500 applications. Of those 1,500 applications, 1,000 of them, 1,200 of them are probably bots, right?
And you are frustrated and you're going, "How am I supposed to deal with this?" And so what are recruiters doing? They're saying, "Oh, well, I can look at these and skim, and I can see that all the resumes that have come in from, India, they're probably all fake." Well, well, how do you know that?
"Well, because, you know, that's where a lot of that stuff is, is originating from." Yeah, but you don't know that all of them are [00:33:00] fake, right? And so immediately now you are making assumptions, right, about a person and their resume based upon the origination of their resume. You are making an assumption that this might be a fake profile because a person is, has a, a, a, a Spanish last name, but in your mind doesn't look Spanish on LinkedIn.
So, they must be fake. That, and then you can still say, "Oh, but I'm a good recruiter," but you can't be if you're making those kinds of assumptions, right? That kind of assumptions that are happening, those biases that are happening, that's what we have to train for, right? That's what needs some learning and some understanding to be able to say, "Oh, actually, yeah, I did do that.
I did say this. I have done this. I actually need to change the way that I'm recruiting to ensure that I am doing it inclusively." And so that's what needs to happen when we talk about DEI. I guess it would fall in, in that category.
Céline Williams: So thank you for, [00:34:00] first of all, acknowledging the, really problematic systems that we are operating in and are the starting point, right? Because racism, misogyny, ableism, all of those things, they are systems that existed for a long time, still exist. They're out there in the world.
They're unspoken. They are the backbone of everything that's been created. We have to be able to recognize and name them and see them to be able to change how f- I mean, let's all work on changing the systems entirely, but also changing how we operate within them so we're not just running on those assumptions and biases.
And then part of that, to your point, people don't even recognize that they have the biases to start with, nothing changes. That mindset is never going to change, and I love that you called out both of those things so explicitly, 'cause I think it's imperative that we talk about them and that we address them head-on and not just, you know, continue to pretend like it's not, you [00:35:00] know, the patriarchy doesn't exist
Stacey Gordon: Right
Céline Williams: I could talk to you for many more hours about all this 'cause I- it's incredibly interesting and I think it's such an important conversation, and I wanna be mindful of your time. So I'm gonna ask the question, is there something that we didn't get to that you do wanna make sure we talk about as part of this conversation, or that you wanna emphasize that we did get to but you're like, "Let's not forget this piece"?
Stacey Gordon: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, a lot of what I, I talk about, and sometimes I think, "Am I being Pollyanna?" You know? And, like, a- and it... Because I really, I really do believe that leaders can both be good leaders and, be, you know, great with their teams and lead from a h- a people first perspective, while also getting the profit and the profitability, you know, the profitability and the productivity that they [00:36:00] want.
Because what I think about is, what happens is we think about the, the profitability first.
Céline Williams: Hmm
Stacey Gordon: you don't get profits without people. So we have to be people first, you know, human first, people first, however you wanna think about it. And so for me, that is the perspective I look at everything, and I think if you can start from there and say, "Look, how am I treating the people that I work with?
How am I ensuring that they can do their best work and be their best selves in this organization?" Because if you let them do that, they are going to be loyal, they're going to be productive, and you are going to be profitable. But when you treat employees as though they are just cogs in a wheel, right?
When you treat them and you don't listen to them, and you relegate them to, you know, again, just not paying attention and, and not pr- not creating psychologically safe workspaces, you end up with people who are resentful. You end up with people who quiet [00:37:00] quit. You end up with people who are, you know, trying to do two jobs at once virtually because they're like, "Well, screw your job because you don't care about me, so I don't need to worry about you," right?
And then you wonder why you don't have the profitability that you want.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm
Stacey Gordon: people first, profit follows.
Céline Williams: Stacey, I know people can go to reworkwork.com to learn more about you. Is there anywhere else that they should go to check out what you're up to in the world?
Stacey Gordon: Absolutely. I have a Substack where most of my stuff resides now 'cause I have so much content out there, so reworkwork.substack.com. It's where you'll find my Lead with Inclusion newsletter. But if you're on LinkedIn, you can follow me there, and I do post the newsletter there occasionally as well. So, yeah.
Céline Williams: Perfect. Well, thank you for coming back and having this conversation and being such a wonderful guest. It's always a joy to talk to you, and I very much appreciate your insight and your time today
Stacey Gordon: Thank you. Thank you. I'm always excited to be a guest, and I [00:38:00] appreciate you having me back
Céline Williams: Absolutely my pleasure
Judith: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage and clarity.