In today's episode of the podcast, PR Expert/Advisor and Author, Sabrina Horn talks to us about the importance of truth telling in business, why "faking it" will sabotage your success and some best practices for moving forward in times of crisis.
We also get into:
- The dangers of cancel culture
- The exceptional value of values
- The different ways we may be "faking it" and what to do instead
Sabrina reminds us that there's a difference between risking it and faking it... that when we're faking it there's an intent to deceive (a fine but IMPORTANT point).
Join us for the full conversation! And, let us know whether you agree or disagree that "doing anything other than being honest will, ultimately, sabotage your success."
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To learn more about Sabrina Horn, visit www.sabrinahorn.com. You can also find her on all social platforms by searching her name (@sabrinahorn).
Her book, "Make It, Don't Fake It: Leading with Authenticity for Real Business Success" can be found at all major booksellers (with samples and accompaniments on her site).
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Sabrina Horn, who is an award-winning CEO communications expert speaker, advisor, and author of "Make It, Don't Fake It: Leading with Authenticity for Real Business Success." Thank you for being here with me today, Sabrina.
Oh, thank you for having me, Celine. It's great to talk to you and your beautiful audience.
Well, thank you. I'm very excited to talk to you, not only about your book and hear a little bit about how that came together, but also in general, to tap into your expertise and what you bring to the table 'cause I think it's really interesting. And that being said, I always start with a big, broad question. The name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. And I'm curious, when you hear the term "leading through crisis," this saying, leading through crisis, what comes up for you or what that means to you?
Sure. I think that's a super place to start. I think for me, being a career public relations professional and also a CEO, it means being in crisis a lot and literally helping thousands of other CEOs and entrepreneurs and their companies manage through difficult times. And what that means today is developing a different skillset to lead people through these times of fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
I can only imagine the types of crises as a PR expert that you've had to deal with and manage through and lead through. And I'm wondering, 'cause that's a really specific lens, right? A lot of people think about leading through crisis, and they think, "Oh, I have to lead a team through a really challenging time or through change," or, "I have to lead myself through this change that's coming and figure out how to get to the other side." But PR is leading everyone, the external world. Like it is a different level of managing any kind of change or crisis or challenge. And I'm curious, what has been the biggest challenge in kind of sorting out how to do that consistently, or whether it's a client, like people's resistance, whatever it is, but also what you've learned that helps you continue to show up and lead through challenging times?
So I think the most difficult thing about that is getting to the truth 'cause when there is a crisis, the normal tendency, right, and this gets to what I wrote about in the book, is to kind of shove it under the rug, fake it, hope it all goes away, or point the finger at someone else or just make something up, right? And you would think that public relations is supposed to be like spin, right? Will just take it and spin something. But actually, that is the furthest thing from what really good PR does. It's all about peeling back the onion and really getting to what actually happened here. And then once you know what reality is, you can find a path forward. But that can be difficult, right, because people are afraid, or they're covering their you know what, and they just want the problem to go away. I think the biggest thing that I learned in that process is the humility of it all. Like how humble you need to be to admit that maybe you made a mistake, right? And that it's okay to say you made a mistake, and now here's how we move forward from that. And that's a very difficult thing for leaders to do sometimes. You know, that they're supposed to have all the answers, they're supposed to be infallible. Well, these days, being authentic is kind of where it's at.
So I've spoken about this a few times on the podcast, this idea that leaders are, they're supposed to solve all the problems. They are there to solve problems. That is their role, which means they can't make mistakes, and there's no safety inside of failure for them, which is a whole thing inside of company culture that is problematic. But on the bigger scale of things, the cancel culture that's out there, I think, is making it even harder for leaders or anyone, it's not even just leaders of businesses, but anyone, to own their mistakes in a public way. I mean, one, how has that affected the work that you do, the real kind of focus on cancel culture that's here now that did not seem to be as extreme five or 10 years ago? But also, how do you help leaders through that fear? Because even the leaders that I work with, I hear it, right? Like we have to be so careful about... And these are authentic and transparent people, but they recognize they have to be so careful about what they say publicly so that someone doesn't misinterpret it or someone doesn't spin it, or whatever the case may be, and it becomes fodder for cancel culture.
Right. Yeah. You know, the cancel culture, it's really unfortunate. It's very dismissive and punitive sometimes. But I think, look, I lead with honesty. Honesty is a great strategy right now because it's really refreshing, and it's different from all the noise that's out there. That saying, fake it till you make it, is so ingrained in our social fabric and in business and certainly politics. And there's a way, right? It's what you say, and then it's how you say it. And those two things together, right, can make the difference between success and failure. And communicating honestly and with empathy and saying like, "You know what, here's the situation. And none of us feels great about this, whatever it is. And I understand the position that it's putting you in. So we have to move forward, and here's the next two steps we're gonna take. And I'm gonna report back to you tomorrow or next week and let you know where we are." And then you have to have a contingency plan. You have to have so many arrows in your quiver today because reality, as we know it, is constantly changing. And that's the nature of a crisis, right? It's just constantly changing. And the reason why it's so difficult to lead right now is because everything's in limbo, everything is a moving target. And the concept of doing any kind of long-term planning is out the window. Everything is a short-term view. And that means you need to have all of these different arrows in your quiver. You need to have a different strategy for maybe even every hour of the day, right, depending on what happens, right, if things are so fluid. And that is utterly, utterly exhausting. So I think that the advice that I give to CEOs and what I've been writing about as we enter the third year of this pandemic, right, is you have to always have your true north, like face reality. And look at it in the face, and then say, "Okay, what are we gonna do about it?" And if it goes this way, we'll have a strategy A. And if it goes that way, we'll have strategy B, C, D, and E. But doing anything other than being honest is only going to sabotage your success ultimately because the truth will come out.
Yeah. I think that is very important advice for people to hear. And I think, especially with the constant crisis and, as you mentioned, the advice that's out there, that's been out there for years, the fake until you make it advice, and you add on cancel culture on top of, and listen, I'm on your, I think cancel culture is extraordinarily punitive, and I think it leaves no room for people to grow and change, which is what I find very frustrating about it. Is if we want people to actually get on board and change and do better, then we have to give them room to do that.
Yeah.
So that's one of the pills-
I agree.
I'm willing to die on. I'm just gonna own that for what it is.
I totally agree. It's a very judgemental way of living, of being and thinking. And it's not unifying in any way. And so that exists in pockets in many companies, and leaders have to have to pull that apart and be a healing influence, not a divisive influence, in that regard.
Yeah. And I think that's the reality, is that it's not only broader society where it's showing up and it's issue, but it's inside of big, small, medium companies. It's showing up inside family. Like it's just becoming pervasive and it is divisive. And I think that, because of it, people do struggle with how can I be authentic? What does that even mean anymore if I am gonna be judged or canceled, or whatever, for speaking my truth in the moment? Recognizing, again, my personal belief is that people can change. So I might have a belief or say something now that, when I get better information, I realize, "Oh, I no longer align with that." Now, whatever the next thing is, is that's who I am authentically, right? And yet with the way things are, we don't give people a chance to grow and change, and it becomes a, well, you said this one time. Therefore, that is the truth forever that you've ever spoken or put out there in the world. And I know authenticity is a, it's obviously in the title of your book and it's a big piece of the work that you do. How do we manage that? What do you recommend to people? How can people lead with authenticity when all of these things are showing up?
Yeah. So first of all, I will say this. Authenticity is like beauty. It's in the eye of the beholder. And so what I think is authentic you may disagree with and vice versa, right? I think every person has to look themselves in the mirror and make a commitment to understanding what the truth is. And then within the boundaries of what the truth is, right, is reality. And how far you wanna stretch that is up to you, right? We have to make a commitment to be our best selves. When we put our heads down on the pillow at night, that we believe that we did the best that we could that day and did right by, do right by your fellow man and woman and children and your employees, everybody. But authenticity starts with that look in the mirror at who you are, and coming up with a list of core values that identify who you are and what you stand for, and what you don't stand for. And as leaders in businesses, those core values become so vitally important to building a strong culture, to every business process that's inside your company. And then, ultimately, right, that's all reflected in your brand. And I think we've lost sight of the exceptional value of values, right? And coming back to them when things are broken and when a customer has a bad experience, there's something that has fallen out of alignment with a core value. And it was something that we did in my company for many years, where every management team meeting we had every month, we would talk about something, and it brought us back to a core value. And sometimes we talked about it in a creative sense or in an abstract sense, but it was really like, this isn't who we are. We need to get back to that. And that, I think, contributed so much to our longevity, right, and our success and our brand, and why people kept coming to us when times were tough and when time times were good. So I think that's where authenticity begins.
How do you recommend people sort out what their core values are? And I ask that because there are many different suggestions of a number of core values or how to determine it. You know, I work with organizations. Culture and leadership is a lot of the work that I do. And when it comes to their core values, they'll have, let's say, three to five core values, but they're not actually what shows up in the company, and it's not actually how they make decisions. It's aspirational. They have put together five aspirational values. There was that great story of one of the companies during the financial crisis that, on their wall, they had like transparent. I can't remember the name. I'm so bad with names. But it was like transparency, authenticity, integrity. And all of that was out the window, which is why they had so many issues at a particular point in time in the crisis. And it was like that's a great example of aspirational values. And I think people have a tendency, and organizations have a tendency, to focus on those 'cause they sound good, or they're what they should be, as opposed to what actually drives them. So all of that context to say, how do you recommend people identify their core values? Is there a number that you think is the kind of sweet spot magic number for values? Because I don't disagree with you. I think they are really important for authenticity. And I'm curious, with the work that you do, your lens on that process.
Yeah, it's a great topic to discuss. And there's no magic number of values that you should have. I mean, when we started out and it was just literally me, myself, and I, I had five values. And it was something like, be grateful, be fast, be honest, deliver, and I forget what the fifth one was. And as we grew, those values modified, and some of them became more important than others. And who you are as a young company and how you have to function is different than who you are as a bigger company becoming more global and more complex, with more customers and partners, and so forth. Integrity was always at the top of the list because without it, as a PR firm, right, it was so central to who we were and what we stood for and what we promised to deliver. And it was central to the relationships we built with the media, with reporters and analysts who counted on us for the real stuff, even though we were being paid by clients, right? They came to us for the real information.
Of course.
Now, so to your question about aspirational, it's very important that values reflect who you are and who you want to be, right? That is an aspirational statement that goes into a vision. And so there's a difference between a vision statement, which is aspirational, and how you're gonna change the world. And there can be values associated with that. And there's a mission statement, which is what you're doing today, and the values that you have today support that. And people get very confused between sort of vision and mission. And some of these mission statements and corporate values, they're like on a poster with seagulls in the sunset and in the background. And it doesn't mean anything. You know, it's like sitting above the door and we go out and have beers on Thursdays. And yeah, we have a great culture, but that's not what I'm talking about, right? So you have to separate out how you're gonna change the world in your vision statement from what you're actually doing today. And one is a means to the other. You know, they have to be connected. But it doesn't matter if you're not delivering on those values. Like you have to take every single value, like creativity. How are you gonna be creative in your culture? How are you gonna be creative in engineering, in customer service? Like in every single department. In HR, how are we gonna be creative and innovative in HR? And that's how visceral it has to be.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really important step that a lot of companies don't take, is to think about it in terms of each department, each, however their company is divided up 'cause I recognize there's so many different structures. But how does this apply in each circumstance? And if there's not room for it, then it probably is not the real value of the organization. If it doesn't apply to everyone, right? If you're saying, "Okay, we can be creative," I'm just picking creativity, "we can be creative with design and with operations," but then when it comes to HR, we absolutely, there's no room for creativity, then creativity probably is not a value that applies to the organization. There might be a better one to be considering across the board.
Well, it's also like... So maybe there is no room for creativity in the legal department, okay? 'Cause that's kind of not where you wanna be too creative. But you can have people who aspire to think creatively, to solve problems differently, right? To deliver their advice in maybe a more empathetic way, right? I mean, it can still be a value in how people communicate with each other. So you raise an interesting point. Can a value like creativity be infused through every single department? To a greater or lesser extent, yes. Like when we used to give performance reviews to our staff, and they would be evaluated on how they delivered on and lived those core values. And the finance guy isn't supposed to be really creative with his numbers, but he can think creatively about how to save money.
Mm-hmm. Yep. And I would say, a legal department is a similar thing. There are obviously rules that have to be followed. I appreciate that. And if there's room for them to be creative with how they can simplify contracts, for example, or how they can present information so that it's under, that's a great way to be creative inside the realm of not breaking the rules, right? So I do. And not every company is gonna want that, right? I think if, using creativity as an example, if we're okay to think creatively about how we apply creativity so that it can be interpreted in those ways, great. And if there's a company who is just absolutely not open to it, that is where I would say, "Maybe that's not the value, then." Right? Like maybe that's not it. And maybe there's something better that applies for your situation and your organization. And I would say the same thing for personal values as well, for what it's worth. I think if you're like, "One of my personal values is connection." And it's a thread through my life. I can apply it in so many different ways, whether it's my work or my personal life, or whatever the case may be. And if I was like, "Oh, I only use that here and not here," and it doesn't really matter if I'm doing this or in this particular situation, then I would be questioning. It doesn't drive the decisions I make. Then I'd be questioning, is that really my value? Or is that something that is aspirational that I think would be great, given who I want to be in the future?
Exactly. I agree.
Yeah. So I wanna acknowledge I love the title of your book, "Make It, Don't Fake It." And I would love to know a little bit about where it came from, make it, don't fake it, and what that means to you because we always hear about what fake it till you make it means. Yours is a spin on that.
Yeah. Well, thanks. I think the title came from this sort of dual lens that I have of being a public relations person and a CEO, and having made many, many mistakes now. Like I was 29 years old when I started my company. I had four years of job experience. I probably had managed an intern, okay? And I had never run a company before or a team. And I knew how to do public relations, but I'd never been in the spotlight where I had to counsel men who were two times my age on how to be honest and deal with a situation, right. And so with that kind of book of experience of 25 years of running my company, I learned that being honest is the only way to go, and that fake it till you make it is only gonna sabotage your success because the truth always comes out. Like it could take a day, a week, a year, 10 years, right? Look at Elizabeth Holmes, the CEO of Theranos, right? She's facing jail time. She's a poster child for fake it till you make it. But I wanted to write a book that would take all of my crazy stories from my career in Silicon Valley to help other entrepreneurs and executives resist the temptation to fake it, and instead to do things the right way, maybe the hard way, right, and have a better chance of success.
So I'm gonna fully own that I have a very particular lens on fake it till you make it. I also don't agree with it. And I do think that there is an opportunity. So this is the example I often think of. If someone comes to me and says, "Hey, would you be interested in something inside of culture that I haven't done before, but I have experience in culture? Do you think you could do that?" I will absolutely be like, "Yes, I can. Here's the experience I have. I can figure that out." And I will be very confident about it, despite not having done that particular thing before. I think that is that middle ground where you're not faking it, but you're also not not faking it. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not like I'm like, "I have all this specific experience that is going to make it 100% certain I can do this one thing." It's that connection of, "Oh, I know, based on things that I've done in the past, that I can absolutely manage and figure that out." And I think the challenge inside of fake it till you make it is that it maybe not dismisses it, but it makes that feel like it's 100% fake to a lot of people, even though it's not, and it doesn't allow people the space to step into things. And I think the make it, don't fake it puts the lens on it of own that it's maybe not the exact thing you've done before, but here's why you're confident you can do it. And I think that's a really important thing for people, especially women, to be aware of as an alternative.
Listen, this is a really, really important fine point. So when you're faking it, there is an intent to deceive. That's the difference, right? You're crossing the line and you're doing or saying something, right, at the expense of someone else for personal gain. If you are an entrepreneur and you're selling a vision, trying to get investor capital for a product you don't have yet, that's not faking it, that's risking it. Risking it with the intent to deliver on a value proposition and a new technology, right? Because you're being honest about what you think you can do, which is the example that you gave. Based on your experience and what you know, the chances are, the probability is, that you're gonna be able to deliver on that, right?
Right.
And as opposed to not having a goddamn clue just to get the money and getting the deal, and then losing it later on because you didn't deliver, right? So that is should not be confused, right? There is risking it, honestly risking it, and then there's faking it, which means there is an intent to deceive.
Thank you for bringing that up because I think that fine point is really important, and I think it often gets lumped into the fake it till you make it category, which has always been my issue with it, is that I don't think it's the same. And I do think that the intent to deceive that you mentioned is wildly important, as is risking it versus the faking it. And so thank you, truly, because I've never heard it put that way. And it's important for people to be able to separate these things out and distinguish them from each other.
Yes. Now, the way that most people fake it is exaggerating the truth. Like you are behind in your sales number and you overpromise what your product can do to win a customer deal, right? You know, I ran a PR firm, and we were pitching a piece of new business. And in order to win it, we said we could get them the Wall Street Journal. We weren't gonna get them the Wall Street Journal. That was exaggerating the truth. That was faking it to win the deal. You know, if you're an entrepreneur and you're trying to get investor capital, and you exaggerate what your technology can do. Or, another way of faking it that's really dangerous is selective truth telling, where you're actually telling the truth, but leaving out certain facts, like lying by omission. And then there's faking it that doesn't involve lying at all. It's when you're in those situations as a leader and you're completely overwhelmed, a crisis situation, for example, and it's raining sideways and you're just like, don't know what to do. And you're a deer in the headlights, and you just wanna stick your head in the sand. Hope is not a strategy, but you hope it'll just all go away. That's also faking it because you're not dealing with reality, and you're delaying taking action that can help dig yourself out of a hole. So there's a spectrum, I wrote about it in the book, called the Fake-O-Meter 'cause I had to put all the different ways that people fake it into buckets. And you can see, by looking at that, different examples of when you're under pressure or you're afraid, or you're overwhelmed, or you're embarrassed, or you wanna impress someone, that you fake it. And then I provide ideas on how to not fall into that temptation.
Yeah. I love that. I hope that everyone who's listening checks out your book. There will be links in the show notes for this. But just since we're talking about the book, it is sabrinahorn.com/book. I think that Fake-O-Meter is a tool that people can use to understand what this really looks like because there is a lot of, I don't wanna say misinformation 'cause I don't think people are intentionally, but I think there's a lot of assumptions inside of this concept of faking it and making it, for the record. Lots of assumptions inside both of those things. And there's not a lot of clarity. And having a tool like that, to be able to assess and understand, I think, really helps bring clarity to the whole conversation.
Right. Well, good. I mean, that's the point of the book, to bring clarity around how to be authentic and how to lead with integrity. I mean, one of the most common ways that people fake it is lying on your resume or in a job interview. And I mentor a lot of young people, students who are entering the workforce for the first time and they're like, "Well, how can I get a job if I don't make something up?" And it's like, "Well, but you can't because your employer will check your references." You can't. So how can you tell a compelling story about what you did that affected a positive, not just output, but a positive outcome and present yourself in different ways where you added value and you're excited about it and could bring that to a new company? Sometimes I think people, I think it's easier to fake it because you don't have to think so hard, right? You just take the shortcut.
Yeah.
But being lazy and complacency does not fit in the same sentence with leader.
I could not agree more.
Yeah.
Before we wrap this up, is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanna mention for our listeners, or something that you maybe wanna emphasize, or you're good and complete the way it is?
Yeah, I think I would close with this thought. You know, as leaders, we have a responsibility and obligation to provide a path for others and to protect them as well. And leadership is hard. If it was easy, more people would be doing it. So I would say this to every leader. Like if the journey is the reward, make it a good one. And think about the last time maybe that you faked it 'cause we all have.
Of course.
And know under what circumstances did you feel compelled to do so. How did it make you feel? Were you exposed? Did you have to tell another lie after the first one? And then if you had the chance for a do-over, how would you do things differently? And maybe try that next time.
I think that reflection is a great suggestion for people to take away from this as a wrap-up point, is spend a bit of time reflecting and learning. And go buy Sabrina's book. And you can find her online at sabrinahorn.com. The links will be in the show notes for the episode. Thank you so much, Sabrina. It was lovely chatting with you. I really appreciate your perspective on this whole concept. And I love that someone with a PR background has written a book like this 'cause I can only imagine how many stories you left out of the book.
Yes. Yes, maybe they'll go in my next book. But yeah, it was really cool talking with you, Celine. And thank you for having me on your show.
Absolutely. My pleasure. Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.