Former COO Rosi Bremec returns to the show to share what really happened after losing her job. She opens up about writing publicly through it, the surprising response she got, and what she's learned about control, security, and healing on the other side of a corporate career.
After 25 years in senior operational roles, most recently as a COO leading teams through growth and culture change, Rosi Bremec's career ended with a short conversation and a locked laptop.
In this raw, honest conversation, Rosi returns to Leading Through Crisis to talk about what happens after the polished LinkedIn goodbye post: the silence, the identity loss, and the slow, unglamorous work of rebuilding a sense of self when the title, calendar, and sense of daily purpose disappear overnight.
Rosi opens up about hitting rock bottom, the "agony of irrelevance," and why she finally decided to write publicly about job loss, redundancy, and executive burnout instead of hiding behind a professional facade.
She also shares a perspective few leaders admit out loud: what it's like to have been the person delivering layoff news to others, and how experiencing job loss herself changed how she understands the impact of those conversations.
This episode is for anyone navigating career transition, job loss, layoff, or an identity shift after leaving a leadership role. It's also for any leader who wants to understand what's really happening on the other side of the table when someone is let go.
Listen in on my conversation with Rosi Bremec...
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Rosi Bremec is a writer, speaker and operator whose work draws on more than two decades in senior operational and C-suite roles across technology, SaaS and iGaming. Her work explores what happens when business decisions become lived human experiences: the conversations leaders avoid, the responsibility quietly left with HR, the identities people build around work and the stories they carry when that work changes.
Rosi's flagship keynote, The People Part Is Leadership: Confessions of an Operator, grew from her own reckoning with the distance between caring about people and remaining present for the consequences of leadership decisions. The essay behind its central idea reached more than 127,000 people on LinkedIn, entirely organically, and opened a wider conversation among HR and people leaders.
She also writes The Agency Letters, a more personal body of work about identity, shame, agency and the meaning we make from what happens to us.
You can learn more about Rosi and her work at rosibremec.com. Or connect with her on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rosibremec.
Rosi Bremec: One day you've got a full calendar, your Slack is going, your emails are going, your phone is going, and then in a, in an afternoon it stops, and you find yourself in the middle of the week, with, just like a deer in headlights really.
Judith: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
Céline Williams (she/her): My guest today, who is a familiar face as she's been here before, is Rosie Bremec, who spent 25 years in senior operational roles, most recently leading teams through [00:01:00] growth, culture change, and some of the best results the business had seen. Then, a short conversation and a locked laptop ended the chapter. then, she has been writing publicly about what nobody talks about after the polished goodbye post goes up: the silence, the identity loss, the slow work of figuring out who you are when the title is gone. Welcome back, Rosie.
Rosi Bremec: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be back.
Céline Williams (she/her): It's a pleasure to have you. I know a lot has changed, so before we get into where you're at now and, what's been going on, I'd love to hear what comes up for you when you hear the title of the podcast, which is Leading Through Crisis, because I imagine that it is quite different than it might have been the last time we spoke
Rosi Bremec: I think right now, what comes up to mind is leading through my own crisis. When I spoke to you before, I was a COO, and I had all the crisis that came with that. Now I'm leading myself through my own crisis and, as you said in the introduction, I've decided [00:02:00] to write about it.
And embrace the vulnerability, around that, which is kind of like a little crisis on my own. So I'm having a little, crisis, and I'm writing about it on LinkedIn, mostly. So that's what comes up. Yeah, I'm leading myself through my own crisis right now.
Céline Williams (she/her): I'm curious, moving from the role of COO where you're leading teams through crisis, you're leading organizations through crisis, through moments of change, whatever the case may be, yourself and navigating it for yourself. What has been... So first off, what's more difficult? And secondly, what has been the biggest learning or observation when you kind of compare and contrast the two?
Rosi Bremec: What's more difficult is this, because I've,
I've, I've always been the reliable one doing everything, you know, doing things for other people and, and, and leading teams and managing crisis within organizations is what I do. And the, and the, the more [00:03:00] complicated it is, the more, the more excited about it I used to get, sad, sad as that may sound.
Leading myself through crisis of this sort was the first time that this, happened, and, the contrast between the two is that I could see... When, when, when it's a crisis in a company and I could- I'm, I'm pretty good at spotting what I need to do, how I'm gonna, how I'm gonna handle it. When it's, comes to me and it's, unknown territory, I had to kind of really, deal with my...
with all the, all the emotions that came along with it, whether it's the empty calendar, the, the, the agony. I think the biggest one was the agony of re- or I call it the... I, I was reading a book and he named it, and I thought, "This is it." It was called The Agony of Irrelevance, and it's, it's like, so one day you've got a full calendar, your Slack is going, your emails are going, your phone is [00:04:00] going, and then in a d- in, in an afternoon it stops, and you find yourself in the middle of the week, with, with, just like a deer in headlights really.
You just don't know, what to do with yourself, 'cause you're always... you were always so, so busy, so, and you always feel like whatever I did after work, I earned it, yeah? So if I went for a facial or a massage or I went to the pool or fuck, like I earned it. I needed it because I was, you know, I, I...
And then I, I was- didn't have that. So, it was a whole different experience. So it was, it was, I think the leading the teams is much more familiar to me and, and leading crisis with an organization, very familiar and very exciting. When it cames, comes to me, it was, it was a different story
Céline Williams (she/her): I think it's easier, I'm not saying easy, but easier to have t- perspective and distance when you're leading an [00:05:00] organization, right? When it's y- when it's you, it's that old saying, you can't read the label from inside the bottle. You really can't read the label when you are the bottle, right? Like, you don't know, and that is a very different experience.
I think even if it's your organization, if you, you started a company, if, if it's yours, you can still step back because it's not you. It is a very different experience to do that for yourself, especially when you are in a moment like you are in, and there is, there are a lot of emotions, and there's vulnerability, and it is bringing up stories and all kinds of...
It's not the easiest time to be like, "Let's do some self-reflection and see what's going on in this moment."
Rosi Bremec: We need to be busy. You'd rather be busy than have all that time and silence on your hands, and having to deal with those, kind of emo- everything that comes up.
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah
Rosi Bremec: I think what happened was the first three months I convinced [00:06:00] myself that I needed a break.
I, I, we went, we went for a couple of weeks, we, we went traveling and, and, I booked myself into a conference as well, so I wanted to stay there and to put like former COO when I spoke on a panel to make sure that, I'm still there, I'm still relevant and, and that, that lasted.
And then that lasted about three months I think, till December, and then it was... it got to be so, so intense that I, I couldn't really, push it away anymore. I had to, I had to sit with it. I had to deal... I had to sit with it. My in- my instinct just said, "Stop pushing me away. Stop pushing it away. Just, just feel it.
Feel through it." And I remember we were in Spain and we had an apartment there 'cause we had... we had an office in Spain, so I was back and forth to Spain. And I kindly asked my husband, I said, "I, I need, I just need time alone. I just need to be with myself." And I was,
and he completely understood, [00:07:00] and I, I spent a couple of weeks just feeling through it. I didn't binge eat or, you know, try to numb it in any way. I was really careful. It's the only thing I could kind of control. But then I just felt through it and, I can't say there was a bright light at the end.
But then I came home for Christmas and it was... Something had shifted a little bit, you know? Like, it was a different feeling. So this whole period of time, every time it... There's, there was no, like, big revelation one day or even now. But every now and then you feel a little bit lighter, just a little bit.
There are many phases and, and this is why I, I, I was so glad to, to come and speak to you because, so many of us, go through this in silence, in isolation. And after I wrote some, some very vulnerable posts, I had so many people reach out and say just thank you for just, just saying what I wanted to say and, and, and, you know, for putting words to [00:08:00] it.
I think that's what... and it felt that at least my pain or this, this thing I went through, at least it had some kind of purpose, right? Not just, not just, um, squeezing me. From whatever it was happening to me, through my pain, I helped... It seems like I helped others at least put words to it
Céline Williams (she/her): It sounds like you were able to help people be seen or feel seen in those moments, right? Like, what you were saying helped them feel like they were,
Yeah
their experience was visible, which is really important.
Rosi Bremec: Yeah
Céline Williams (she/her): so I'm curious what led you to the place or was there, and it might not be a single catalyst, please don't get me wrong.
It could be, that's fine, but how did you get to the place or what led you to the place of saying, want to write this and put s- this out in the world and be open and vulnerable about it," while [00:09:00] still navigating it? Because I think often we get the very polished reflection on what happened, where it's like, "This happened to me, and now I'm doing this wonderful th-," right, where it's that polished summation which, you
Rosi Bremec: Yeah.
Céline Williams (she/her): its place, do not get me wrong, but then the focus is really, it's not on what actually, it's not the messy middle, and the messy middle is where most of us spend most of our time.
Rosi Bremec: I think I hit rock ... I h- I hit the lowest point so far. So far. Hopefully I won't go back as low again. But I think I hit the lowest point, like, end of May. And I just had the insane urge just to let it out. I just needed, I just wanted to write. I just wanted to write, write about it.
I just wanted to l- to, to let it out. And I remember I was, I was speaking to my husband and he said, "You're so good at writing." He said, you know, whatever you wrote, you know." And I'm like, "Yeah, but I wanna write something and I'm not sure I should write about it." And he's like, "Why?"
And I said, "Well, [00:10:00] I don't know if I'll, if I'll ever be employed again if, if, if I show this side of me."
Céline Williams (she/her): Mm.
Rosi Bremec: you know, 'cause you're always, you know, you always have to, like, be prim and proper and, and show that you have it all together and, um... And this is gonna show a side of, a human side of me or, or a vulnerable side of me that I don't always have it figured out, right?
So, and he said, "What, you know, what do you have to lose now?" And he, and he, and he encouraged me. And it still took a while. And then I wrote a post, and it wasn't that vulnerable, but it went really well. And then, and then the kept, I kept, I kept getting this voice in my head, like, going like, "Write, just, just, just say it.
Just go out and say it." Um, and I did. And, the response was instant, and it was overwhelming. It was so relieving, and people were sending me, like, really long DMs, just being able... [00:11:00] it's almost as if I gave them, or what I wrote gave them permission to say their bit.
Céline Williams (she/her): Mhm
Rosi Bremec: Let me say mine." And, and, um, and I thought, "Okay." And the more I kept, receiving them and answering them, I, I mean, I used to tell my husband, like, "I've got fan mail. I've gotta go, I've gotta spend some time just..." 'Cause I wanted to, to re- to, to answer all of them properly. Like, I really want... and it just, it just made everything so much lighter.
It, it, it, it, that shifted something. That shifted something pretty profound. Yeah.
Céline Williams (she/her): I think it's very understandable, and probably too common in my opinion, fully noting that's my opinion, uh, that people have that feeling that you did where it's like, "If I'm this vulnerable, am I ever gonna work again? Is this, do I wanna put this out?" I think that is a very normal response and normal thought process, and I wanna acknowledge that. It's really [00:12:00] interesting how nobody ever says afterwards, "I regret being vulnerable or sharing that and that." I've never heard someone who's written be like, "Man, that was such a regret," because ultimately, if you put this out and someone doesn't wanna work with you or they read that and they're like, "That per- that, you know, Rosi's not for me,"
Rosi Bremec: Yeah
Céline Williams (she/her): isn't that better for you?
Like, haven't y- you know, they know that, they've opted out, but you know that you're not gonna be working with or for an organization or with people that don't want to see the whole you.
Rosi Bremec: Yeah
Céline Williams (she/her): the downside really?
Rosi Bremec: No, and, and I had more... So I had been searching for a job, searching back for a role, I think I started in probably January. And I had more response in that couple of weeks from... I had, I had CEOs of companies going, "Do you want, do you want a job?" And, or... i, I had never [00:13:00] had that response, you know.
And I'm like, okay, so maybe, maybe there are people who want people that are okay with being vulnerable, okay with being human, and, and wanna... want somebody that, you know, might bring in a, a different kind of culture. So yeah, I, I, I do, I do agree. I, I do not, I do not regret it at all.
People going, "You're so brave. How, how can you say that? Oh, my God, you're so brave." And I'm like, am I? I, I didn't, I didn't go out going, "I wanna be brave." I just, I w- I went out going, "I just wanna say it. I just needed to say it." It's this, this like insane urge to just, you know, say it as it is.
We don't have a lot of that
Céline Williams (she/her): No, because there's so much shame around these things that there shouldn't be, right? Like, there shouldn't be, people when they are let go, when they're made redundant, when whatever language we want, get fired, whatever language we wanna use, whatever the circumstances, there [00:14:00] is so much shame around it that they don't talk about it or focus is on the story of why it was unfair or whatever the case may be.
Which by the way, it can be unfair. That's, that is real, it's still what happened. So it with the story to, the, of unfairness doesn't actually minimize the shame,
right?
Rosi Bremec: And the, the, uh, y- you know, you're, you're, you're asked to sign, a document saying you c- you can't, like, say anything bad about the company or anything, and, and I haven't. I mean, but, we... y- you, you put up that, in, in your introduction you said you put up that wonderful th- and I did the same thing.
I put up, I was, "Wonderful years. Thank you for all the wonderful years I spent, and we had a great time, and the team, and, and I'm deciding to step, step down, for, for some, you know, deserved rest and recovery." But you know you didn't really do that. You were, you know, it [00:15:00] was kind of forced upon you. So, but most of us do that, that you do that beautiful farewell post.
Everybody just keeps smiling and, y- you know, and, and that, that stings. It stings that you can't really say, you know, say it as it is. And so you end up I don't know, trying to justify it in many ways, and, and holding a lot of it inside you. So that's what a lot of people told me. Like, they would love to be able just to say what happened because some of the things that s- the, some of the ways that these things happen is brutal.
It's, it's just insanely brutal, especially to people who have given their all. You know, because it d- a, a lot of the times it's not because of performance, it's because it's political or a new leadership comes in and, you know, they don't like the look of your face or they, they just wanna, they want to bring [00:16:00] in their own people, you know?
A lot of times a CEO comes in and, and he wants to bring in, you know, who he trusts and who he knows. And you could be the best, COO in the world but, you know, you're not his trusted one, so, you've gotta go. But you can't say that, you know? And, and a lot of peoples carry a lot of that shame.
I spoke to a lady who had been in a company for... I mean, I was in, I was in my previous company for about four years, but this woman had been in her company I think for 24 years. She built the whole thing. She built the team. A new CEO came in. She said she rubbed him up the wrong way, one day, or she, challenged him.
I don't know. Um, anyway, he just, um... And, and from then on, the process started to, get her out. So it's really brutal. And it has nothing to do... the whole thing that you can work hard [00:17:00] and you're, we talked about security in the beginning. You work hard and you've got a guaranteed place, you know.
It doesn't exist anymore. It just doesn't exist anymore, 'cause you could be there today and gone tomorrow and it could be literally just a, you know, shutting down of a department, a k- a r- making, making a role redundant so that they don't have to, they, they don't get legal implications because of that.
You know, there's so many ways they could do that. I mean, I've done them as well. I mean, I've had to do them myself, so,
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah
Rosi Bremec: I know how it works.
Céline Williams (she/her): Yep.
Rosi Bremec: something though that, that also hit me in the last... since this happened, is that s- since it happened to me, I realized that how I have made people redundant, I have fired people, right? So they would have seen my face, and I would be the last conversation they had before, as this is happening.
[00:18:00] And I know that I must be the villain in their story, even though, you know, whether it was my decision or company's decision, whatever. But... And so another realization was that, oh my gosh, like, it- I made some- I mean, my in the very sense that I made, I've made people feel the way I'm feeling, myself.
And that's another post I would like to write. I've draft... But like, it's, And even the way you say things, you know, your, your... the way you, you deliver the message, it's very scripted. And it's, it's just so, it's unemotional and it's, it's, it's cold and, and legal. Like, you know, you know, tells you like, you know, "Don't do this and don't say that, and don't, don't," you know.
It's a lot of don'ts, and so you have to really, sit there and tell, and, and deliver this, this, this news, to somebody. [00:19:00] And, you know, all you wanna do is just, just hug them and just say, I'm, really sorry. I mean, this has got to..." Really, you know, you can't, you can't do that. And a lot of times it's on Zoom these days as well, which is horrendous.
So yeah, that's something else I, kind of had to, you know, process, once, once you've been through it yourself. I, I thought I knew how it felt, but when you've experienced it yourself, you really, really get to know what it feels like.
Céline Williams (she/her): I think that's a really important observation because these moments are, so scripted because leaders, organizations are so wary of kind of legal implications. I understand why, please don't get me wrong, but it dehumanizes the process, and it- we're still humans in the process.
And [00:20:00] the person on the receiving end of this news and information, to, you know, kind of reference back to what you were saying earlier, it's not only a loss of the job, but there's loss of identity. There's that loss of a sense of security, of comfort, of all of these things that you think, is safe.
This is secure. I can bank on this in some way." And that's all very human, very emotional stuff. And so to not have the space to ... 'Cause you can't real- I mean, people do express it, but it's, people on the other side are unemotional. They have to be. It becomes very performative, right? It
Rosi Bremec: Yeah
Céline Williams (she/her): on both sides, which then to, it doesn't let the receiver any kind of grief around what's hap-
Rosi Bremec: Yeah. It's horrible. I've even written, like, you know, the messages you [00:21:00] send when, you know, today we're l- you know, saying goodbye to so and so, and I would write it, and I would, you know, make it really nice and, and, and, and then, my legal team would, would pick it up and go, chop, chop, chop.
No. Don't, don't, don't say that one. Just trim it down and so it's like a little, It's like a nothing, nothing, nothing like, I've, I, I had written it in initially. And so then that person goes, "And you know what? You know what? She just wrote that." And, I even had ... There, there was an instance where I had my fellow colleagues said, well, you know, "Couldn't you, couldn't you have said something more?"
And I'm like, "I wasn't allowed. It was chopped down, completely by legal, so I, I couldn't."
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah
Rosi Bremec: I really want people to know this because the more you... And, and I, I, if you remember the last podcast I had with you, I'm very, I was very close to my direct reports, you know, I, you know, I know their children, I know more or less what's going on in their lives 'cause I feel like it helps me lead.[00:22:00]
And so when you're telling this, um, to someone who you know has a family, who has a mortgage, who has children in school or something, it's, it's, it's really, really, it's really, really hard. And then when it happened to me, there was, that was something like, you know, especially when I was b- by myself in December and, and throughout the, this, this past couple of months, was something that I also had to kind of come to terms with, that it's, I, I've done that to people and, and, my face is the last thing they saw, and what I said or didn't say was the last thing that stuck in their heads.
So, yeah, it's hard.
Céline Williams (she/her): It's, and I think writing about that and sharing the both perspectives is valuable because oftentimes people don't know the other side of it. They
Rosi Bremec: Mmmm
Céline Williams (she/her): whatever side they're on, and I think the best leaders do have relationships with the people that, whether it's their direct reports or their peers, they have real relationships.
Whether they're [00:23:00] best friends or not, that's not the point. They have trust and they've built appropriate relationships that, which means when s- they're, a leader shows up and has to be impersonal and has to do this very performative, formal email, it's jarring to the, to whoever's on the receiving end who thinks, "Wait, this is...
Rosi Bremec: Ok
Céline Williams (she/her): ha- we know each other. What's hap- what, how can we not have a real conversation?"
Rosi Bremec: It's... I, I, I can say this, um, I won't say which company, but I made a mistake once where I had made somebody redundant, and they were very upset. They didn't wanna sign. If they signed a paper on that day, it would've been... we could have given them extra, there was, there was a, a severance pay that was over and above, and this was many years ago.
But, and [00:24:00] he wasn't sure whether to sign it or not. Um, and there was a, a moment of s- there was a c- minutes of silence, really awkward silence. And, and the rule was at that time that if, if you don't sign it then, then we would just give you the, whatever's legally due. That deal is on the table now and, and it's not, it's not, like, valid after.
And there was silence and silence. And I know this person had children, and I know, you know, um... And I said, I s- I broke the silence and I said, "I, I, I so empathize with you right now." I said, "It's totally up to you, but really, I would... If I were you, I would, I would sign it." That's all I s- And, and, and he, he kind of, stopped for a minute and he was like, "Okay."
And then he signed it, and we, we hugged. You know, that was... This was before I, I got bitten. We [00:25:00] hugged and, and I s- you know, I s- wish you well, and it was all, we hugged and HR hugged, and we're all hugging, and it was all, very, very, human
Céline Williams (she/her): Yep
Rosi Bremec: And I thought, okay, you know, I think we're, we made it a little less, awkward as that, that it could be.
And I was really glad that he signed it because then, you know, he could get a nice little sum. Within, I don't know, 24 hours we got a letter, saying that, you know, we coaxed him into it and, um, so, uh, uh, if I... And it was basically I, I said, uh, because I said that. Um, and, it was obviously not my intention.
I was just trying to, to, you know, be s- be a little bit human in that moment, and it bit me, bit me back.
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah
Rosi Bremec: You, you toughen up and, and so this is something that people need to know that, you know, it's a ver- even if you've been, you know, working with a person [00:26:00] for so long and you have to be so careful what to say, 'cause they'll walk out that door, they'll go to their lawyer, and they'll come back with a lawsuit.
And, and it's their right to do so, right? A- and, and, and often, often enough they do. So you have to be really, really careful and really, it sounds, feels really, really cold when you, when you do this
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah. L- look, is cold. It, uh, it, it's, it is cold, and it's also the reality of the world that we live in because people will come back with lawsuits, and it, it's, there's... It's hard all around because we've, you know, a really hard process that has a lot of emotions. And I understand why.
There's a necessity behind it, but it's also really crappy that we've ha- that, that that's where we've ended up, right? Yeah, so- I imagine that, and I know, y- you know, [00:27:00] mentioned identity earlier, but I imagine that the, there's been a shift in your identity, not only from being on one side of it and experiencing the other side of the coin, but the change in job and, and career.
I imagine there's been a lot of shifts that have come because when we have shifts in our perceptions of things, it starts to affect our identity and the things that we know are true about ourselves, which is very healthy, right? I'm curious what some of that has been for you, where you're at in your journey right now, and, what you think might be next or coming up
Rosi Bremec: I'm gonna be completely honest with you and your listeners that I'm not over it yet. I'm not ready to go back into a system and to have to do the things we just talked about
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah
Rosi Bremec: Whether I'm gonna be ready in six months or a year, I don't know.
but I'm in a [00:28:00] different space right now, and whether I'm gonna stay here or I'm gonna... So, you know, if in a couple years I, I do something different, people are gonna go, "Well, she said that."
I doubt they're really gonna remember, but... So basically I'll, I'll, I'm in a different space in the sense I'm not ready. I've seen what it, what it's like. And I'm, I'm, I'm not choosing that right now. And I've chosen to also diversify my income, so not have one main income and, and it's, I, I feel like I'm in, their control because before I thought I, I had some control because I worked really hard and I was very loyal and I was, I was on the ball.
I did everything and more. So I thought I had some kind of control even though I was making people redundant that they didn't have control. So it's quite ironic, but I thought I had some control. So now I know I don't [00:29:00] have that control, and I don't want to be in that situation again where it's all or nothing.
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah
Rosi Bremec: I don't wanna be in a situation where I'm, in an environment that's not befitting my skills. Because at the end of the day, Sometimes you do end up outgrowing the dynamic. You just outgrow it. So I'm in a space where I've chosen, to take on smaller contracts.
I'm, compared to what I used to earn, I'm earning less, right now. But... I feel so much better. I'm not there yet, and I don't know if what I'm doing right now is gonna be what I'm gonna do for a longer time. I don't know. But one of the things I've done is I've embraced the uncertainty of it, and I've tried to control a little bit of it more.
So now I have two or three incomes, right? And if one goes, [00:30:00] it's okay, I've got the other two. And I've kind of... And I also didn't realize how much of my life and my time and my energy I was giving, to that. I'm- I've found time for to make, to, to nurture my friendships, to make new friendships. I, I check up on my friends.
I, you know, sch- schedule time with them. And I'm, I, I, I've, I'm part of a community that, you know, we're having, we're having online drinks tonight in an hour. Eh, I never had the time or energy or space to do that before. So I don't wanna give it up just yet, and I don't think I will now because I've tasted what it f- feels like
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah. It's, it is a very different, mindset and experience when you realize how much time and how much energy and how much head space and how much [00:31:00] whatever you outsource and you give to other people when you're not doing it anymore. And you realize that the illusion of choice that you had, the illusion of empowerment, the illusion of autonomy, they were illusions.
Rosi Bremec: Amen
Céline Williams (she/her): you h- can now discern more effectively, like, what is actually in my control and what isn't? Where do I have choice and where don't I? 'Cause sometimes the only choice we have is, like, how do I navigate this? That's, that's a fair choice.
Rosi Bremec: Mhm
Céline Williams (she/her): actually have the space and the perspective to look at those things outside of a system that isn't the only system that exists or matters or is relevant, even though many of us were socialized and believed, like, this is the system we have to operate within.
And now you're like, "Oh, hang on. Maybe I
Rosi Bremec: Oh.
Céline Williams (she/her): opt out of this system.
Rosi Bremec: Yeah. I, I totally agree. Totally agree
Céline Williams (she/her): before we wrap this up, is there anything [00:32:00] that we didn't get to that you want to make sure you say before we end, or that you might wanna emphasize or repeat or, make sure people don't forget?
Rosi Bremec: I would say that if you're going through this right now, or you've been through it, one, you're not alone, and two, that shame that you're carrying, it's not yours to carry. And I know I'm gonna say this and it's gonna go in one, out the other, but I'm gonna say it anyway. It's really not yours to carry, and the way it was delivered and the way it was done, brutal as it was...
I mean, it, some, some can be less brutal. I mean, we you know. It's, it's just the way it is. And, and don't, don't, get too wrapped up in it. And, I'm saying this after months and weeks of, you know, replaying it in my head and you know, should I have just shut up? Should I have just, should I have done that differently?
Should I just... [00:33:00] Should I not challenge anymore if I get th- if I get a job like that anymore again? Should I... There's so, so almost all these should've. Um, all I know is that whatever, what, as, as long as I was there and, and wherever I've worked, I've always done my best. And things change, leadership changes.
There's so many, there's so many factors, you know? So many factors. So don't... So what, what I'd like to, to, to leave people with is it's, probably not you. And you did a great job and, you know, it's, And I, I'm sure that at one point, You're gonna realize that it's, better not being there, you know?
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah
Rosi Bremec: point in my, in my, in this past that if they would come back and say, "Do you want your job back?" I would say, "Hell yeah.
Céline Williams (she/her): [00:34:00] Mhm
Rosi Bremec: Hell yeah. Like, when do I start?"
Céline Williams (she/her): Yep
Rosi Bremec: Today, it's a no. No. I, I can't go there again. So, so, you know, they say time heals. I'm not there yet. But yeah, don't, don't... My, my main message is don't carry it for too long.
Find a way to, to, to shift that energy, to shift that, that, that heaviness. And, and don't, don't, don't internalize it so much because it's, it's just the system really. It's just the system and, you know. Let's try to find and make companies, that work differently if you can. Even saying that, it's not easy, you know, 'cause if I had my own company and I had...
I told you what happened to me. I showed a bit of humanity and it didn't really go down well. So I mean, I'm not judging. I know how these things work and it's [00:35:00] just the way it is. It's just the way it is
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah. The system exists as it exists. Don't make it your identity. Don't take it on as part of your identity. And time heals, but more importantly, time is healing, right? So you might not be healed.
Rosi Bremec: Yeah
Céline Williams (she/her): us are not he- but it is healing, and that's okay
to be in the process of healing
Rosi Bremec: Mm-hmm. And sometimes doing other, other, other things. You know, I'm, I'm finding joy in, in doing, jobs that are a lot less taxing, with people that... And, and also the fear is gone. So the fear of losing a job or being fired is out the window,
Céline Williams (she/her): Yep
Rosi Bremec: and that is the biggest liberation, I think, that as of now.
So I'm just like, "Phhhh, I'm done. It's done. It, I- it happened. If it happens again, I'm, I, I, I survived." Yeah. It's been what? Nine, 10 [00:36:00] months. Still here.
Céline Williams (she/her): Yep. Yep
Rosi Bremec: So it's, Before I was like, "Oh, should I, I shouldn't say that. I might lose my job," now, bring it on.
Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah
Rosi Bremec: I'm not afraid anymore.
I feel liberated that I don't live with that fear anymore because I've been through it, and I survived somehow. So
Céline Williams (she/her): Well, I love that for you, and I'm glad you've survived. And for anyone listening or watching this, we are gonna have a link to Rosie's LinkedIn for sure in the show notes, because she is writing all about this, and it is beautiful writing, so definitely go check her out. And thank you for coming back, Rosie, and for sharing your story.
I think it's really powerful and it's really important, and it's a wonderful, different perspective based on where you are now versus where you were a year and a half ago. And I think sharing what is going on in a real and human way in that messy middle is really important. So thank you for doing so very eloquently and very [00:37:00] openly.
I appreciate you
Judith: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage and clarity.