In this episode, emotional intelligence expert Dr. Robin Hills shares how to stay grounded in human-centered leadership while navigating the rise of AI and embracing the opportunities it brings.
In this episode, business psychologist, emotional intelligence expert, and founder of Ei4Change, Dr. Robin Hills, shares how to stay grounded in human-centered leadership while navigating the rise of AI and embracing the opportunities it brings.
We explore the emotional and ethical limits of AI, and why critical thinking, empathy, and purpose-driven leadership matter now more than ever.
"AI is not a crisis, it’s an opportunity. We’ve got to recognize it as a tool, work with it, and understand what it can and – perhaps more importantly – cannot do."
Ready to lead with purpose in the age of AI? Tune in to this powerful episode and discover how to harness emotional intelligence, rethink leadership, and future-proof your impact.
Listen now and start leading differently.
🔑 Key Topics Covered:
- AI as an Opportunity, Not a Crisis
- Limitations of AI vs. Human Capability
AI offers data, speed, and analysis—but lacks emotion, intuition, and ethical reasoning.
Leadership today requires what AI cannot replicate: empathy, judgment, and authentic connection.
- Emotional Intelligence in Leadership
It’s about making quality decisions, fostering real relationships, and adapting to change with self-awareness.
- Guardrails for AI
Who should be setting them? Why political or media-driven governance isn’t the answer.
The need for diverse, informed voices shaping AI ethics.
- The Changing Role of Doctors & Medical Professionals
How AI can support medical professionals.
- Education & the Next Generation
Why traditional education must change in the age of AI.
From regurgitation to critical thinking, creativity, and emotional resilience.
Encouraging youth to become emotionally intelligent, ethical leaders.
- Emotional Resilience vs. Toxic Positivity
What it really means to be resilient in a realistic, grounded way.
Recognizing what we can and cannot control—and how to move forward with optimism.
- Future-Proofing Your Career
---
Dr. Robin Hills is a business psychologist and the director of Ei4Change. A company specializing in emotional intelligence for change in educational training, coaching, and personal development (focused on emotional intelligence, positive psychology, and neuroscience). Awarded “International Impact Company of the Year” – Award Winner by Dotcom Magazine in 2025.
With the most comprehensive and detailed courses around the topic of emotional intelligence, Robin has taught and empowered more than 500,000 people across 200+ countries. He is an accomplished author and global keynote speaker (including at Harvard). Awarded “Best Emotional Intelligence Coaching & Training Enterprise 2025” by Corporate America Today and the Global 100 Awards by EMG Publishing.
In early 2024, Robin was presented with an Honorary Doctorate in Advanced Studies in Psychology in recognition of his contributions to Emotional Intelligence training.
Learn more at ei4change.com, or connect with him on...
LinkedIn
Facebook, Instagram, or X: @Ei4Change
You can also check out his YouTube channel.
Céline Williams: [00:00:00] and still this idea of emotional resilience seems to be a gap for a lot of them, and I'm curious.
Um, how can people bridge that gap if they are listening, whether it's themselves or kids or people in their lives?
Judith: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
Céline Williams: My guest today is Dr. Robin Hills, who is a business psychologist and the director of EI four change, and he specializes in emotional intelligence, positive psychology, and neuroscience. [00:01:00] Welcome, Robin.
Robin Hills: So it is a pleasure to be on your podcast. Thank you for having me.
Céline Williams: It is my pleasure to have you. Emotional intelligence is a topic very near and dear to my heart. So I'm sure this is gonna be a fascinating conversation. And before we get into the meat and potatoes of it, as it were, I always ask the question upfront, the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis.
When you hear that phrase, what does it mean for you or what comes up for you?
Robin Hills: Well, I think we're going through, a degree of crises as, the world evolves over the next few decades, and I think people have got to understand what that means for them, what that means for the people around them. And they've gotta take a lead within this, otherwise they will be done unto and it will lead to further crises. I mean, one of the biggest crisis that is facing humankind at the moment is the advance of artificial [00:02:00] intelligence. see it as a crisis. I see it as an opportunity, but so many people perceive it in a completely different way. I think what we've got to do is we've got to take a lead and help people to understand that it's not quite as dramatic a crisis as they thought it was.
Céline Williams: So, yes. I think like many of us, I've had conversations with people on both sides of that where they're like extremely pro ai and they wanna figure out how to use it and what they can do with it. And then people who are very hesitant and think the world is going to end with the advent of AI and nobody's gonna have jobs.
And I'm, there's every flavor in between that. What the, your, from your perspective, and I recognize I'm asking from your perspective, but the people who are ca the advance, the advent of artificial intelligence as a crisis, what they are potentially see like where that is coming from.
And on the flip side, the people who are, [00:03:00] you know, really pro ai, even if they're not. A hundred percent sure why that might be, where that might be coming from. Because I imagine there's some emotional intelligence built into some of that as well in the perspective side.
Robin Hills: Oh, there's a lot of emotion intelligence built into both sides. What we've got to do is to recognize, first and foremost artificial intelligence is a wonderful tool. It's a tool. It's nothing more than a tool. And what we are at risk of doing is letting the tool dominate us and take over from us.
And I think what we've got to do is to work with it and work alongside it and work more collaboratively with it and get to understand what it can do, more importantly, get to understand what it can't do. And we've also got to recognize our humanity within that. What is it that we can do that AI cannot do and can never [00:04:00] do, what is it that we can't do or we have been doing, but not particularly well can do? And I think what what demonstrates to me the level of crisis is the fact that people do allow their lives to be so dominated by their tools and their machines. And they're kind of equating that with artificial intelligence. And I'll give you a very good example. Mobile devices, we're addicted to them. go anywhere, anywhere in the world from the poorest nations to the richest, and people have got a mobile device. Device often clamp to the side of their head. if we can't control our behavior around those. There's, there's no hope with regards to emotional intelligence, and that's me being incredibly pessimistic. I think we are better than that, and I think [00:05:00] what we've got to do as the human race is to understand how we can work with this tool and how we can make it tool for our betterments as a human race.
Céline Williams: So I agree with that very much. One of the things that I've heard a lot about is the. Not that we're gonna focus on artificial intelligence, but I think it's important to kind of set the landscape for anyone who's listening or watching this a little bit. One of the things that comes up a lot is that there's no, there's no one setting guardrails for artificial intelligence.
It's kind of a free for all. Right? Now, there's no governing body saying, here's the limits, here's what you can and can't do about it. And, my guess is that a lot of the fear that people have stems from that. I'm curious from your perspective, because I think humans getting together and discussing that and [00:06:00] figuring out what those guardrails might need to be or what that could look like is important.
But I'm curious from your perspective. What that means for the reality of people using it as a tool in productive ways and beneficial ways, versus what I think a lot of the fear is without those guardrails.
Robin Hills: Sure. I think what we've got to do is if there is going to be. An overarching committee that is going to recognize the morals and values around using ai. We've got to make sure that it's not political. We've also got to make sure that it isn't driven by the media and we get the right sort of people making the comments around artificial intelligence. I mean, a few years ago, the late Pope was talking about artificial intelligence. the heck did he know about utilizing artificial intelligence and what did he know about social media? [00:07:00] don't know, but I would imagine it would be nothing. And then we get actors and actresses pontificating about artificial intelligence because they've been in a film that's got a few robots in it and they say, oh, artificial is gonna take over the world. Rubbish. Let's get the people who really know what this tool is all about and let them set the appropriate levels of guarding within the tool in order that it is driven forward in an ethical and moral way. We need spiritual leaders. We need, and we need it from across the spectrum. We need philosophers, we need scientists, we need good people who have good ethics and good morals, not politicians and not the media. And that's not to say that either of those don't have ethics or morals. I think it's very questionable around [00:08:00] some of the other crises that are happening in the world, and we are not seeing good leadership there.
Céline Williams: Yeah. So that brings me to the question that I would have, which is not seeing the good leadership in general is even more of an indicator of why. Emotional intelligence is more important now than ever, and also when it comes to AI in general. Why does EI emotional intelligence, why does it matter so much or even more than perhaps in some other arenas when it comes to ai?
Robin Hills: Well, look, I think it's important for your listeners, so. We define what we're talking about here with emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is the way in which we, physiologically and psychologically react to our environments as [00:09:00] they change. So it's being smart with our feelings. It's actually using our cognitive, rational ability to work with our emotions in order to make good quality decisions and build up authentic relationships. to take action. if we then look at artificial intelligence, this is an, uh, well, intelligence is the wrong word, but, if we look at what has been labeled as artificial intelligence, this is a tool that is providing us with rationality, with analysis, with an ability to work with banks of data incredibly quickly and come out with really good answers. Now what it cannot do, and what it does not have is emotions. It will never have emotions like a human being. It just doesn't have our physiology. It doesn't have our makeup, so it will never understand our [00:10:00] emotions. The other thing it can't do is it can't make. Good decisions. It can decide around the data, but it can't take risks.
So it can't say, oh, we haven't tried this. Let's try it a different way and see what happens. That's, an element of, emotional intelligence that is beyond the capability of artificial intelligence. And one of the other areas is around ethics and morals. We could make a judgment based upon what is right. We know what is right. We know what feels right. We have levels of intuition to help us with that. Again, beyond the capability of artificial intelligence. finally, the other bit that I alluded to is the ability to build up authentic relationships. So you and I are building up a relationship [00:11:00] as we're talking here, I'm building up a relationship with your listeners, whether they're just listening or they're watching.
It's more than a superficial, relationship. But it's a transactional relationship. And, people will see the human element of me. Some people will like it, some people won't, and I've gotta live with that. That's just it.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Robin Hills: uh, we, you and I, I can guarantee I 100% that I'm correct when I'm saying this is that we've had a childhood, we have been naughty children, we've been told what our parameters are. We have learned through that process. We have experiences that you and I could share and get some great comfort from. Before we came on, we were talking about our ancestors, where they are delight from Can't do that.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Robin Hills: So even if we have a human looking [00:12:00] robot capable of interacting with us and build up a relationship with us, we can't give it a hug. We can't sob on its shoulder. We can't, Go to a coffee shop enjoy the experience together. We can't go to a film and watcher or a movie, as you say, across the water. can't go to a movie and get the same level of enjoyment from it. uh, I think what we've got to do is to recognize the human elements of what we are about recognize that that's beyond the capability of artificial intelligence. Now and for a very long time. It might do at some point in the future, but I'm not gonna be around. You are not gonna be around, and none of your listeners and watches are gonna be around when that happens.
Céline Williams: It's what I hear you saying is, the more we can [00:13:00] kind of focus on, and I'm gonna use the word intentional again. The more we can focus on and be intentional about the things that make us human,
being able to connect the emotional element of living, of experiencing, of participating in the world. The more we can be intentional about cultivating that and recognizing the differential in that from ai, the more we can differentiate ourselves from ai, but also then use it as the tool it is meant to be and build out the things that.
Allow us to thrive in a world where these things are overlapping and coming together and changing with rapidity, let's put it that way.
Robin Hills: Yes, yes. I think there's also a very important intelligence that we've overlooked here that is beyond the capability of artificial intelligence. It kind of overlaps a little [00:14:00] bit with emotional intelligence. And we've alluded to it that beginning of the conversation, it's spiritual intelligence. are we here? What's our purpose? What's the meaning of life? when we actually then start looking at it from a. perspective. We have a whole host of people that, have got incredible roles that provide very, very good value within society, and that's our religious and spiritual leaders. roles will never be taken over by ai. So if you really are worried about a job for life, go try to become a baker. I'm being facetious there. But look, care workers and, people that work, with the sick and the elderly and the young, again, their roles not going to be made redundant through artificial [00:15:00] intelligence.
Yes, they'll change. may change quite dramatically, but we're still going to need care workers. they are, they have the ability to emotionally engage with us. They take us to places through storytelling and through comedy. through the arts, these are other roles that are never gonna be taken overtaken by ai. people who do cooking, people who create the wines, the viticulture, people who create perfumes. These, these are things which rely on, or stimulate the human senses. These are never gonna be overtaken by ai. we've got craftsmen, wonderful, wonderful craftsmen who make things for us. Carpenters, I would even go so far as to say electricians and plumbers. roles are going to be. Changed by [00:16:00] AI, but not significantly. Now, very interestingly, within that, one of the roles that is greatly threatened by a ai, and I've had some really intense arguments around this, is, our doctors,
Céline Williams: Interesting.
Robin Hills: Doctors roles are going to change rapidly. They don't like it. Therefore, they argue very eloquently around it, and they get very. Almost to the point of being aggressive about it because they've trained to do certain things that AI can do much better than they can. I have said to them let the AI do the diagnostics.
Let the AI do the analysis, let the a AI. Create the care pathway. It is your responsibility ethically and morally to say whether it's right or not. your [00:17:00] responsibility ethically and morally to implement and impart that plan, and it's your responsibility to work with the patient and care for them to make sure that it happens in an empathetic manner. That bit they don't like. That's not what they trained for. Well, it is, but it isn't. And I think that the fact that I'm actually having to say to them, you are going to have to change, creates a crisis within the, certainly the National Health Service here within the United Kingdom. There's poor leadership that is taking them through it. Almost the point, Celine, let me just say this,
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Robin Hills: Last week I was working with a group of doctors and they had had some missives coming down from their royal colleges, and they've also had some missives coming down from their trusts to say that they are not to use generative [00:18:00] ai.
Céline Williams: Oh, that's it.
Robin Hills: I've, it's bizarre. And I've said to them, don't be so stupid. Go and use generative ai. It's a wonderful tool, but be open about it. Use your ethics, use your morals. Use it to support you in what it is that you're trying to do. let it take over from you. you know, if we've got these. bodies actually saying, you are not allowed to do this. We're back to this kind of parent child relationship where people are being done unto. And yes, AI will come in and AI will take their jobs. Good because I think it is about time that this change happens within the world, and certainly it needs to happen within medicine.
Céline Williams: Well, it's interesting that you say that because [00:19:00] as you were talking, I was thinking that doesn't sound like it's in the best interest of the patients to be dictating something like that across the board. I was listening to a podcast last week and they were talking about specifically medicine and how the, findings were coming out where a doctor and an a ai, whatever the program was.
I don't know the program. When they were working together, it was worse outcomes than when it was the AI diagnosing on its own. And this was surprising because the idea was that obviously the doctor's gonna be so great at diagnosing and that wasn't the area that they were really doing their best work.
Right. The AI was diet to what you were saying, the diagnostics of the AI were significantly, better. The results were just higher quality, whatever it was when it was on its own. [00:20:00] This just connected a dot for me because I'm, as you were speaking, I was thinking, well, if we know that this is the case, we have evidence that this is happening, why would we not be?
Why? The directors who are putting out these missives, why would they not be considering, how can we work if this is coming to light, that this tool is diagnosing more accurately whatever the case may be, in the best interest of our patients, which is supposed to be the idea in healthcare. How do we leverage that so that our doctors can be more effective, we have better health outcomes, whatever the case may be.
Robin Hills: Well, I think what we've got to do is to encourage the doctors to take the right sort of lead, to put the level of challenge within that. Now within the workshop that I was running, 5% of the doctors had actually used generative ai. 95% of the doctors had never, ever, opened up chat, GPT.
They didn't know how to use [00:21:00] it. I showed them how to use chat GPT and introduced them to Gemini and Claude and copilot, and just showed them how it would revolutionize some of their thinking. Particularly around medical teaching, setting, learning outcomes, and creating the right sort of, slides to present to students.
And they just sat there aghast saying, look, this is gonna take, this is gonna free up hours of our time. And I was absolutely aghast that they hadn't even been told how to utilize this. And it was up to me a complete outsider to come in and say, Hey, this is absolutely wonderful.
Go look at, look at how it works. And then the doctors actually said to me, one or two of them actually said to me, well, our patients are using it. So if our patients are using it, why aren't we using it? Well, I said to them, well, only, only you can [00:22:00] answer that question. if I've got a problem, I, yeah, you know, at the moment I'm monitoring my blood pressure and I'm getting some results that I think I need a little bit more of an insight here. So I go into Gen AI and I ask it a few pertinent questions and it comes out with a lot of answers. Now I've got a clinical background to be able to understand what it's telling me,
Céline Williams: Right.
Robin Hills: to panic about it, but, You know, doctors should be, aware of the tool that is out there.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Robin Hills: know what it's capable of doing, and they should know what it's capable of not doing. Now, having spoken about Gen ai, chat, GPT or Clawed Gemini co-pilot and all the others, they are good tools, but they're not very good tools. They do generate some rubbish sometimes,
Céline Williams: Yep.
Robin Hills: that's down to their [00:23:00] programming. And what you've got to do is you've got to have the ability, this is where the human bit comes in and saying, Hmm, that's not right. back and redo it. And you've gotta have the, the knowledge and the understanding and the capability of knowing what's right and what's not right. So again, this is where the doctors can come in and they can utilize the tool and say, okay, I've got an answer. I don't agree with it. Good. You've got an answer that you don't agree with.
What is it that you don't agree about it, and what would make it a better answer? That's where your human element comes in,
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Robin Hills: where you are actually utilizing it as a tool, and it's not gonna dominate your practice.
Céline Williams: It's that critical thinking element, right? Where you're taking all of the information we have historically, all of what comes with emotional intelligence and applying it to think critically about what you're being given. [00:24:00] Critical thinking isn't just pure logic, rational, this is what came out.
It's all of those things coming together, which is not only a huge opportunity for doctors or medical practitioners when they're looking at the results of ai, but for any leader in any industry who is figuring out how to use AI as a tool. How to benefit from it and how to stand out as a leader as well.
Robin Hills: Yes, yes. Now, right at the beginning of the conversation I was talking about the tools that are dominating our lives in terms of mobile devices. I think what. You've got to do is to look at the capabilities that that is giving. Our younger generations,
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Robin Hills: they have an ability to work with these devices without fear, and they have an ability to do things that you and I can't do. And if we then. Take [00:25:00] that capability or it No, it's not gonna be we, it's gonna be they. What we've got to do is to encourage them to become the leaders of the future, utilizing that capability and work with AI in such ways that you and I and everybody else over the age of 40 is going to look and say. Wow, that is making a real difference. Now, the trouble that we've got, globally is when we look at some of the big professional bodies, when we look at the political arenas, when we look at some of the decision makers, they're too old. They are far too old, and I would include myself in that group. We've gotta hand the world over. We've got to hand it over to a younger generation, and I [00:26:00] really do hope that they do a much better job with it than we've done.
Céline Williams: I'm curious about an element of that, and I'm gonna try and phrase this effectively. One of the concerns that I have heard from, leaders that I work with inside of organizations, whether it's parents of, you know, people who are 25 and under, whether it's teachers.
You know, educators in some way, a concern that comes up more often than, than I would ha, than I would've expected, let's put it that way, is a lack of emotional resilience in that younger generation currently. I don't know that it's a lack of emotional intelligence across the board, but it is this perception.
True or not, that they're not particularly emotionally resilient And I'm broad strokes, broad brush, broad generalizations. I will fully acknowledge that [00:27:00] that is what I am stating. It is not true of everyone. Please no and think that obviously no broad stroke statement is ever true of everyone.
This is the kind of filtered, what I have heard repeatedly. I am curious from your perspective, because the work you do, so much of it is in emotional intelligence, in emotional resilience. Do you see that and whether or not you do, is there a way of shifting that perspective or what can we do about it?
Robin Hills: Just to build upon what you've said
Céline Williams: Please?
Robin Hills: support. Everything that you've said. I, I think if we are looking in broad generalizations, yes,
Céline Williams: Okay,
Robin Hills: is a, reduction in emotional resilience. When we are looking at it from a societal level, I, I, I've, uh, gone off on a bit of a rant and a hobby horse around the medical profession.
I think I can go off on a bit of a hobby horse [00:28:00] around education as well.
Céline Williams: great.
Robin Hills: has got to change. With the advent of artificial intelligence, there is, a need to recognize and understand that if you set a child their homework to go in and write an essay on the political system within. France, for example, can generate that through, chat GPT within 10 minutes. Uh, it'll take them a further five minutes to refine it after they've cut and pasted it, job done. what's the point of actually setting them that piece of, homework? What we've now got to do is we got to recognize that they're going to utilize these tools far better than the teacher can and to actually change the way in which we're educating them so we're not filling them with a load of facts and getting them to [00:29:00] regurgitate these facts in examinations. We need to train them and educate them. To think more critically to work with their tools purely as tools.
So yet we've got to bring the tools back into the classroom. got to build in safety mechanisms within the tools that they are designed then to do what the tools are designed to do. So they're not, they're not communicating with their friends socially. They're not getting on social media, they're not looking at porn websites, whatever they do. what we've got to do is to recognize that, those kind of, barriers have got to be built into the tools and get them to work emotionally and resiliently in different ways. So what is education going to look like in 2030? It's not gonna look like, [00:30:00] what it did in 1930 or 1830 or 1730, and it's never, it's not changed over hundreds of years. We are now in a crisis situation where we need to take a lead and change the way in which we're educating our children over the next five years. need to educate them to become more entrepreneurial. More empathetic, take better, more qualified risks and build in the right level of ethics and value so that they can make the appropriate judgements and to get 'em to be a lot more creative and not rely on the tools to do everything for them.
Céline Williams: I really appreciate your perspective on that. Thank you for validating what I've been hearing. Not that that was the point of me, but I appreciate that because it indicates that there is something afoot. And I think your point about, well, I think the education [00:31:00] system needs to change for a lot of reasons, now more than ever,
I think your point around. Not just having children, young people memorizing and regurgitating, which is so much of what traditionally education has been built on. Historically I can understand where that came from. But we have in our phones, we can find any piece of information we want. A millisecond.
So regurgitating and memorizing is not an indication of a whole lot anymore. At one point it might have been, but it just isn't. And the education system, and I think often, no offense to any parents out there who hear this, but parents as well continue to push that traditional idea because it's what they know, not necessarily what's best.
Robin Hills: yes, yes, that's right. And I think this is what [00:32:00] the educational. System is at risk of falling into the trap of doing what they've always done and, doing what they know. We are in a new world. We're in a new paradigm. We've got artificial intelligence. We've got to work with it. We've got to embrace it. I look up my 3-year-old grandson and he is. you know, I've gotta, I've gotta take my roast tinted spectacles off, and I've got to say without bias,
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Robin Hills: but what I'm seeing in him is, is quite an emotionally. Intelligent for a 3-year-old young man. he cares, if anybody gets hurt, he's there. Trying to support them and encourage them. the other thing that he's quite capable of doing is picking up a phone and flicking through it. Now, he, I, I've got an Apple watch and his [00:33:00] parents have also very similar. Devices, but they don't allow him to play with with the watch. So when he comes to see me. We are forever changing the, the watch face, and he's busy playing with my watch and he, he knows how to do it. I mean, at the moment, can't see it and it doesn't work on a podcast, but I've got, got a unicorn on the front of my watch,
Céline Williams: Perfect.
Robin Hills: what he wanted.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Robin Hills: it because it's sparkly and it's bright and, know, traditionally it would be, oh, you're not allowed to, light unicorns.
'cause that's a girly thing to do. I think what we've got to do is to, look at him and I think, other, preschool children are getting to become very familiar with the idea of devices. what we've got to do within the educational system is to build up that confidence and that [00:34:00] capability. So that they can actually utilize these tools rather than banning them. 'cause if
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Robin Hills: them from the classroom, they become, something I shouldn't be doing.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Robin Hills: are kids gonna be doing? They're gonna be doing under the table,
Céline Williams: Of course.
Robin Hills: bedroom late at night, so they're going to be doing it with their friends at the back of the bike sheds and all that sort of thing. The world has changed. got to embrace these tools and we've got to make them work for us and not work against us.
Céline Williams: Yeah. So a question that came up for me as you were, talking about that, and I think that the, I will. Acknowledge this observation for myself. I think I have observed in younger generations that they are a lot more emotionally intelligent than [00:35:00] my generation was. And certainly, you know, people close to my age, older than me, than we were at their age.
So they're more, they're more aware of their own emotions, of other people's emotions. They're more considerate, they're more accept. A lot of those elements that come from emotional intelligence seem to be, they exhibit them more effectively. Let's, I'm gonna put it that it's awkward when I'm, to put it that way, and still this idea of emotional resilience seems to be a gap for a lot of them, and I'm curious.
How can people bridge that gap if they are listening, whether it's themselves or kids or people in their lives? Like what does, do you have any insight into, or maybe it's even just defining what emotional resilience is. 'cause I'm saying it like everyone knows what it is. And maybe,
Robin Hills: sure.
Céline Williams: That's the starting point, but there seems to be a gap between how [00:36:00] emotionally intelligent, a lot of.
Let's call them young people. I feel like I'm a hundred years old saying that, but young people are compared to what we would consider or view as resilience
Robin Hills: Yes. I think you make some incredibly good points there, Celine. What I'm seeing with young people. Have the basis of good emotional intelligence, but it's very raw, which rightly it should be in their,
Céline Williams: stage of life that they're in. Right? Yeah.
Robin Hills: and I think this is, this is where the educational system needs to change because I think a lot of them to get trained in this concept within, kindergarten and preschool and the first few years of. What we would call primary school, but then it gets forgotten about. So when you go on to secondary school or high school, it's all about learning [00:37:00] subjects. And learning subjects more around facts rather than applicability of facts and the emotional intelligence. Bit is forgotten about it. If it's talked about, it's talked about within religious education or in, tutorials and it's that sort of thing on a Friday afternoon where the kids have just wanted to the weekend to start. No, it needs to be built very much within the curriculum so that it has a better understanding and a better application of emotional intelligence. By setting the groundwork there. That way we can then make them more emotionally resilient. So to go on to your point, let's define it. What is resilience? Everybody talks about resilience. Oh, it's about bouncing back. It's not. It's about having an understanding life is. It's not perfect, but it's having a realistic [00:38:00] optimism.
It's recognizing what's good about the world and recognizing what's bad about the world and saying, okay, not a lot I can do about it, but this is what I'm in control of. And, it's having the flexibility and adaptability to make the best of a perhaps a bad job. To do it to the best of your ability, but to do it knowing that life is full of meaning. So what is it that you're trying to do and how can you do it to the best of your ability, knowing full well that you're gonna have both hands tied behind your back and you're gonna be blindfolded on me. Okay? You shouldn't. how can you move forward and how can you move forward realistic optimism?
Céline Williams: Yeah. I really appreciate that definition. I think it's extremely important. And one of the things that I talk about quite often is we hear about, toxic positivity, right? People who are positive [00:39:00] for positives sake.
Not necessarily, or it doesn't feel to the people around them that it's grounded in reality and it's just, you know, anything that comes up, they're like, oh, we'll figure it out. Don't worry about it. It feels very toxic. It feels dismissive. And I love what you said because one of the things that I talk about a lot with people is the difference between toxic positivity, which feels dismissive and disconnected, and optimism is different because it is.
Grounded in reality, but hopeful, grounded in reality, but looking to what's possible, not dismissing that there are things you can't control. Not dismissing that this situation might suck right now, but not getting stuck in it or pretending it doesn't exist.
Robin Hills: Yeah, that's right. And I think the key word is they're realistic. You know what, what is the reality of the situation? Yeah, they're good points. Yes, there are bad points. Let's cover the bad [00:40:00] points. What is it that we are in control of here? What can we do something about? What is it we're just gonna have to accept?
Céline Williams: Yeah. Yeah.
Robin Hills: what can we work with and how can we work with it to change the situation? To our advantage in an ethical and moral way, and to do so based upon what it is that we're trying to achieve.
Céline Williams: Yeah, there's a lot to be said for, acknowledging what you can and can't change inside of something. So what's in your control? What's outta your control? There's a lot to be said for doing that because that is the reality and we don't wanna ignore it.
And we don't wanna, pretend like we can control everything because we live in a world where we just can't control everything.
Robin Hills: No. And again, prior to us having our conversation, we were talking about the fact that I up by computer this morning and Microsoft's changed all my software, I actually have to. [00:41:00] a time aside that I'd rather not put a time aside to do in order to get my, um, bits of Microsoft software to work properly again. Now, again, it's, it's realistic optimism. Uh, whilst I'm doing that, I can't be doing something else. So what are the important things that I need to do? Well, there were a couple of things that I needed to do today, which are vitally important. My
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Robin Hills: to put her car in for service, so I had to drive down to pick her up whilst the car was in the garage. I then had to take her back to pick her car up afterwards. I have the wonderful opportunity to be interviewed by Celine Williams on her podcast.
Céline Williams: So kind.
Robin Hills: I had to build that into my day. I've got to eat, I've got to exercise. There are certain other bits and pieces that I need to do. There are a few emails that I've got to respond [00:42:00] to. We've got to build our day around those obligations. That vitally important and we've just got to make sure that we are in control of that. And there are gonna be times when things compound and we've got deadlines of plenty, then the computer breaks down or the car breaks down, or somebody arrives who we weren't expecting.
We've just got to make decisions.
And we've got to make appropriate decisions, and these decisions are okay. I can't do everything. What is important? What is important is I've gotta look after myself.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Robin Hills: got to eat, I've got to drink, I've got to go to the toilet, I've got to sleep. I can't delegate any of that. I've got to do it myself. So I've got to look after myself and keep myself fit and healthy, and I've got [00:43:00] to do that in a way that supports other people. So to do it self.
Céline Williams: Yeah. Um, I appreciate that. Distinction and that perspective. Before we wrap up today, I always like to give my guests the opportunity to either, talk about something that we didn't get to that they really wanna bring up. 'cause sometimes that happens or if they want to emphasize something or leave the listeners viewers with a thought, this is your opportunity to do any of those things if you would like to.
Robin Hills: Well, yes. I'd just like to summarize everything that we've been talking about. Is your responsibility to future proof yourself and your career? So have a look at what it is within your current role, where you are making decisions, where you are taking risks. What is it within your role that is creative, innovative, doing things differently. Where is it that you can build up at [00:44:00] relationships? Where is it that you can network? Where is it that you can work empathetically with people? How can you make a difference and how can you build more spirituality into what it is that you are doing? Building purpose, building meaning, building purpose and meaning not only for yourself, the people that you work with, and the people that you serve. Your clients, your stakeholders. If you do that, you are assured of a great and I wish you all the best.
Céline Williams: That is the perfect way to end this. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me today, Robin. For anyone who's listening or viewing, there will be links to find Robin in the show notes per usual. And uh, the website to check him out at is ei the number four change.com. Um, and you can learn more about him there.
And thank you [00:45:00] for your insight and your time and the gift of your knowledge today. It's greatly appreciated.
Robin Hills: Thank you Céline . It's been an absolute pleasure.
Judith: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage and clarity.