In this episode, organizational psychologist Richard Reid talks to us about the power of charisma and why being charismatic may not mean exactly what you think it does. Learn about the difference between our System 1 and System 2 brains, how to unlock your charisma, and engage people to create the best outcomes for everyone.
“Charisma is really about how we portray ourselves and engage with people on a deeper level.”
In this episode, organizational psychologist Richard Reid talks to us about the power of charisma and why being charismatic may not mean exactly what you think it does.
Learn about the difference between our System 1 and System 2 brains, how to unlock your charisma, and engage people to create the best outcomes for everyone.
We also talk about how leaders can more effectively lead through crisis, why emotional intelligence is key and silence is underrated.
Plus, so much more!
“When we create space in conversations and validate positions, even if we don’t agree with them, it makes people feel psychologically safe. When they do, they bring the best versions of themselves, speak up when they don’t understand things, etc. When they don’t, they shut down or leave.”
Charisma is a continuum, as well as a leadership skill that can be developed. This episode is a great temperature check and place to tap into your charismatic leadership style.
—
Richard Reid is a highly qualified psychologist, coach, and organisational consultant with over twenty years of experience. He has consulted with several prominent organisations, including the City of London Police, Transport for London and the Witness Protection programme.
In addition, he runs a boutique international practice that provides therapy, coaching, and psychology-related consultancy services to entrepreneurs, high-net-worth individuals, and C-Suite-level leadership. His particular spheres of interest lie in the areas of Trauma, Resilience, Workplace Culture and Charisma.
Richard is a regular media spokesperson on channels such as Sky News, CNBC, BBC and ITV and has co-hosted the Sky One series "Extreme Phobias, Extreme Cures". Moreover, he is a published author with Penguin Books and a global keynote speaker.
His corporate portfolio includes Sophos, Novartis, Ernst & Young, Cap Gemini and the Ministry of Defence.
Learn more about Richard and his work by heading to richard-reid.com or connecting with him on LinkedIn.
[00:00:00] I'm Céline Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis Podcast, a conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Richard Reid, a behavioral psychologist and organizational consultant and author of Charisma Unlocked, which came out just a few weeks ago.
Welcome, Richard.
Richard Reid: Good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Absolutely. I'm excited to chat with you today, and I always start with the same question, which is the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. When you hear that phrase, what comes up for you? Or what does that mean for you?
Richard Reid: So my first reaction when I hear that is to think about organizations that are in crisis.
So either they're having a downturn in terms of performance and and revenue, or maybe they're going through some big organizational change.
And the concept of leading through that, right? Like what does. What does that mean for you? Because I would [00:01:00] presume, and I'll fully own that, this is an assumption, but the lens, the combined lens of being a behavioral psychologist and seeing, really seeing all those behaviors in action that show up along with the understanding of the organizational structures, kind of gives you an specific perspective or lens on.
How people often lead through, or what are effective ways of leading through those crises in organizations?
Richard Reid: Yeah. Uh, definitely. I, I think often it puts the spotlight on people's typical leadership behaviors during normal times. Those aren't necessarily put in distress or under such scrutiny, but what you sometimes find is when organizations are going through crisis.
People's preferred styles really get, really get tested. And so, for example, if you've got somebody because of the hierarchy of the organization or their personality, they're very far removed from, um, the groundswell of opinion. They can dictate [00:02:00] how organizations navigate through crisis, but actually they don't take into account the emotions that go with that.
Mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: And
Richard Reid: all the experiences and research that, that I've undertaken show that actually when people feel that they're involved in how that is navigated. Then they have reassurance. They feel they're more aligned. And as a consequence, it's not to say they won't have a negative reaction to, to that crisis, but it's likely to be far less.
Céline Williams: Yeah. It's more manageable. Right? We, I think we hear about the importance of people feeling like they have a voice, but we underestimate the impact that actually has when, you know, the people that are in the trenches are dealing with those, those crises.
Richard Reid: Absolutely. You know, we're all guilty of making assumptions about other people's situations, and I think that definitely applies when we're under pressure and what we're dealing with large groups of people as well.
You know, it's, it's a different thing when you're dealing with a small team, but if you're dealing with hundreds or thousands of people in an organization, you can't possibly know what everybody. Feels, [00:03:00] but you, you can certainly try to tap into that and get some representation of what, what different aspects and groups in that organization might feel.
And I think people tend to get bogged down in focusing on the process, trying to get through and doing the process to people rather than, as we say, engaging people in that process.
Céline Williams: Yes, I absolutely agree and have seen that many times. And I, I would say that the other thing that I've observed, and please correct me if you've seen something different, is, is um, not only the getting, like focusing on the process and really getting bogged down in the process itself.
Um, but it is the. Almost dismissal of any human element to hyperfocus on data. Whether it's process like, it just becomes, these are the thing, it feels like that is controllable and not unpredictable is how I often, that's my lens on [00:04:00] it.
Richard Reid: I, I fully agree with that, and I think for some, you know, by no means dismissing the value of data, but it's only one aspect of the, of the situation, isn't it?
I think as you say, it's a comfort zone and, and. You know, we think about organizations, but individuals leading the organization are human beings that are affected by change as well. Yeah. And, and nobody likes uncertainty. And when we hang on to things that we think are certain, it gives us reassurance, doesn't it?
Mm-hmm. When actually, there, there are gonna be lots of unknowns involved in that and things that unfold as, as we go through the process. So we need to sort counterbalance that with, with, with also addressing some of these people concerns. And, and that is really about how we, how we engage with people.
And I talk a lot about the idea of charisma, how it is that we portray ourselves, but also how it is that we engage with people at a deeper level. Not just what they are, uh, overtly saying to us, but what that means to them uh, emotionally when we start to tap into that. People feel reassured that we've got their back, that we're thinking about them as individuals.
They're not just another number. And that's massive, massively important. It's not just [00:05:00] getting through the process, it's, it's how people feel in the aftermath of that. Did they feel like the organization considered them and looked after them? And if they don't, they often walk with their feet.
So I wanna hear more about, um, your take on charisma and the work that you've done around that because.
I think for a lot of people when we hear the word charisma, we have a very specific idea of like what charisma is or who a charismatic person, leader. Yeah. You know, whatever is in our lives and what that looks like. Sometimes positive connotations, sometimes negative, but there is a very, I don't think a lot of people think about charisma involving.
Some of what you were talking about, which is like the recognition of other people or that like, it tends to be seen as interpreted as much more selfish and self-absorbed, right? Yeah. Like the, it serves me to be charismatic, so I'm gonna be Yeah. Look, look
Richard Reid: at me. Yeah,
Céline Williams: exactly. So I acknowledging [00:06:00] that because from what you've just said, that's not where you're coming from and hence, tell me about it.
Tell us about it.
Richard Reid: Yeah, it's, it's one of those phrases that sort of, um, in, in, in the uk we, we, we talk about a, a, there's a food called Marmite. Oh. And we talk about how people love, love it or hate it. Maybe, maybe you've heard it, maybe you haven't.
But I'm in the hate camp for the record, not a offense. Yeah.
I'm,
Richard Reid: I'm, I, I'm on the fence for this one. But, um, charisma is often like that. When I talk to, to people about the idea of charisma. People either really get it or, or they really react quite strongly to it. Say, no, no, no, that's, that, that doesn't count for anything, or that's not for me. And my personal belief is that.
It's a continuum. Some people are naturally more charismatic than other people. We all have the ability to develop skills, and it's not about a one size fits all. It's some of it's about celebrating your uniqueness in some cases. Your, your, your quirkiness and engaging with that and, and, and owning that.
Yeah. But I think you're quite right. There is, there is charisma that, that is, is really sort of, um, self-indulgent. Yes, [00:07:00] absolutely. We, we've all got our own agenda. We've all got things that are priorities for us. But the kind of charisma that I, that I talk about, that I coach on is really about creating, um, virtuous circles.
So, in other words, trying to create as many win-win situations as we can. And even if we can't give other people exactly what they need. Demonstrating respect and, and validating their position, even if it's something that doesn't necessarily align with what we have, or, or, or that we have the capabilities to to give them what they want.
Céline Williams: Mm.
Richard Reid: So, so it's really, it's really that, and, you know, we, we, we can look at lots of examples in, in, in, in public life and, and lots of politicians without going out going into names, who on the face of it are charismatic. But it's all about them, isn't it? It's all about how you accentuate them. And if you don't.
There's a very strong reaction to that. So right. When we're talking about the, the leadership realm, it's really about leaders that not only present credibility to people, but also are able to tap into the, the, the key motivations, the key fears for people, and to demonstrate that not only in their [00:08:00] one-to-one interactions with those people, but also in their, their speeches, their emails.
In other words, there's a consistency across the board in terms of how they are engaging with people. That genuinely shows that they understand what people's concerns are or their hopes and, and that they are doing whatever they can to, to validate those and acknowledge those and, and, and address those.
And I think going back to your project before, that's often the bit that gets lost when we are, when we talk about organizational change or organizational crisis.
Céline Williams: Yeah. Um, so I am, you mentioned earlier there's I have three questions I wanna ask. So I'm gonna acknowledge that I'm gonna pick one of the three.
For now. And I'm just gonna move a cat outta the way. 'cause this is real life podcasting. Um, and that is when you, you mentioned the skills that there are skills associated with being charismatic and people can learn the, and yes, we all are unique and have our, you know, quirks that we bring to the table and things.
Yeah. But that there are skills associated with charisma [00:09:00] and I think. You mentioned a few kind of in how you were explaining it, but do you have, like are there specific buckets or skills that you're like, these are the five that we see cons? I mean, I'm making a number up, but whatever it is that you're like, these are the key indicators of charisma.
Richard Reid: Yeah, definitely. I, I think the first thing I'd say is a lot of people think Chris is purely about, external skills, the things that you manifest in the world. And, and, and yes, it is to a large degree, but it starts with how you manage your internal world. And if, for example, you are a leader who is, is panicking, it's likely that you start to objectify people.
You start to focus on the data and the process rather than individuals. And some people that's their preferred uh, mother s operandi anyway, but um. Focusing on your, your emotional intelligence is really the place where all this starts. You've gotta recognize what's going on for you. You've gotta recognize what's going on for other people.
You've gotta recognize what you're giving out to other people. Yeah. And whether that's helpful or not. And I think a lot of the time in any walk of life, particularly [00:10:00] businesses that are under pressure, we tend to operate in what's called system. One of the brain system. One of the brain is all about, we're under threat.
Let's, let's do what we're gonna do to get through this. So we streamline, we naturally streamline. And even if we profess to be somebody who cares about people and, and, and their situations. Our peripheral vision closes down, uh, our, our, our ability to have spare capacity to recognize and interpret what's going on for other people starts to be affected.
So learning to recognize and manage your own emotions is where this all starts, because if you don't have that, you don't have the spare capacity to recognize what's, what's going on in, in, in real time and to pivot. Mm. The more stress we become. The, the, the, the more we tend to go into OCD type behaviors, you know, so my background is in, is in mental health originally, so we tend to become more, more engaged in, in fixed behaviors.
Whether there are other options available or not. We don't tend to consider 'em, it's a bit like the person that gets locked out the house that keeps trying the same key. Yeah. Somehow the 20th time it's gonna work, [00:11:00] we're gonna get in the house. Right.
Céline Williams: Right.
Richard Reid: We, we, we tend to get locked in these cycles of, of thoughts.
It doesn't occur to us until aft afterwards that actually I could have done something different there.
Céline Williams: Why did they
Richard Reid: do that? So that's, that tends to start to play out with individuals, um, in, in all kinds of situations. So managing your internal world gives you flexibility, and that flexibility means that you are no longer talking at people, you are engaging with people.
In other words, there's an opportunity there to really understand people at deeper level and create something between you.
Céline Williams: Mm. You know,
Richard Reid: how often do we go into conversation? Driven by our assumptions about, about what other people might think or how they might behave, driven by our agenda and what we want to say next.
We don't really bracket that and think, well, let's just meet somebody where they are. And that is tremendously powerful when we get it right, because it's not most people's experience of everyday life. Most of the time we think people want the abridged version of what we think or feel, or we've gotta, we've gotta self edit before we say certain things.
When we create spacing [00:12:00] conversations and we validate positions, even we don't agree with them. It makes people feel psychologically safe, and this is massively important, not just when we're working through crisis, but in any well-functioning organization. When people are psychologically safe, they bring their best versions of work.
They speak up when they don't understand things, when they have concern, they speak up, when they disagree, they speak it when they've got fantastic new ideas. Whereas when people don't feel that people are interested, they shut down. They do enough to to get outta the line and not much else, or they leave.
Céline Williams: Yeah. I, okay. There's two things in there that I wanna talk about specifically. The first one is what you just said. I am a broken record about validating is not agreeing. Aligning is not agreeing, right? Like you can validate the way someone is feeling and that goes so far with people. You can align around a decision ultimately without actually agreeing that it's about, but this is the choice Absolutely.
That we're making to move forward and. So I say that [00:13:00] because what you just said, I feel like we do not emphasize it enough, especially in organizations and I mean I would say in any interpersonal relationships, just how important it is to validate someone else's experience and that it is not automatically agreement
Richard Reid: ab.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, a lot of time, going back to what I was saying before, I think, you know, we we're driven by our system one brains and, and System one is all about impulse. So if you are saying something I don't agree with, or I'm assuming that you're going to a partic particular position, the chance I'm gonna dive in.
I'm gonna cut you off and, and for system one, system one is all about winning and lose it straightaway. You activate somebody else,
Céline Williams: right? Yeah. Me or you? Me or you. Yeah.
Richard Reid: Yeah. Who's gonna win? Bang your heads. Yeah. Yeah. But when we step back, when we say, you know, effectively you go for it. You tell me everything you think about this.
And, and we, you know, maybe we, we asked more in depth questions on what they said. We asked them to clarify. We summarize what we think we are understanding from this, people start to come down from their [00:14:00] position. So the brain, it is what we call a pattern in the brain, starts to look at that situation through, through fresh eyes.
And, and then we shifted to what's called system two, which is more about mutual respect, collaboration, all these kinds of things that are kind of the higher functionality elements of being a human being.
Céline Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Um, thank you for sharing that and, and expanding on it because I think it's so important and so it's so challenging for people to remember that validation, validating, and what I say is aligning.
Often it's not agreeing, it's not the same thing. All we need to ab
Richard Reid: absolutely it can be, but it doesn't have to be.
Céline Williams: Exactly. And the fact that it can be, doesn't it? That's what people get hung up on. So I really appreciate the additional explanation. The other thing I wanted to say or I want to really ask you, so when you were talking about the importance of emotional intelligence and that like awareness of self, let's [00:15:00] say there are, I am.
I am guessing I, that you have had this experience as well where you are, whether it's someone you work with or someone you know that purports to have, will tell you all about how a self, how self-aware they are. Yeah. That they have done all this work. That they are, you know, I they're someone that I used to be connected to who would, would be like, well, I'm an emotional intelligence trainer.
I've done all like, it was, they're really just. That is their identity. And as a result, they often really don't actually know their own experience or the impact they have or what they're feeling or whatever it is because they default into, but I know it all. So I say that because I think unfortunately, there are a lot of leaders who fall into that category because it's been reinforced in them.
Yep.
How does. Is there a way to [00:16:00] recognize deal with not get activated by? 'cause I know a lot of people see that and it's like, are you kidding me?
Richard Reid: Yeah, yeah. There are definitely ways to, to, to, um, navigate that. I, I think that the first thing I'd say is that, um, you know, three, this is psychological safety.
It's about humility and it starts with. People can start modeling that. But actually you, you don't have to be infallible. You don't have to know everything. Sometimes deferring to other people or even talk about difficulties you've had or mistakes you've made, but in reason, levels the field and, and allows other people to, to feel that actually they can, they, they can relate to.
And that's massively important. I, I'm always concerned by people who say that they're, you know, almost like in absolute terms, I'm emotionally intelligent because. You know, I teach this stuff and every day is a, a school day for me. There are times when I'm, I'm, I'm on the ball. There's times when I slip back and think, well, why did, why did you do that?
Why did you say that?
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Richard Reid: Because we we're human beings. It's, it's always [00:17:00] a work in progress. Anybody who says they've got that sorted is being complacent or, or ignorant. Yes. Um, in, in, in, in, in my view. So I think it, it, it starts from humility and, and the idea that actually as human beings, we are heavily predisposed to, to, to act, uh, acting within system on the brain.
'cause it, it means we get more done.
Céline Williams: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Richard Reid: So we, we were constantly working with that. Particularly, you know, even if you are extremely emotionally intelligent, external circumstances play a part in in in that as well. So if you're under pressure, your emotional inte intelligence is gonna go down.
Yes. Yeah,
Richard Reid: so you're always gonna gotta be watching out for this and, and, and be open to the idea there's things that I might need to, to, to work on and improve.
Céline Williams: Mm.
Richard Reid: So that, that's the first thing. I think when, whenever we're, we're activated by somebody, again, system one, we're tempted to speak up and say something or we're temp well, we're tempted to move away from the situation and, and, and
Céline Williams: roll our eyes.
Some of us are big eye roller or,
Richard Reid: or roll our eyes, [00:18:00] but all of these are quite, are quite quick responses. They're all system one. And actually they, they, they either compound what we're already feeling or they, they draw a bad reaction from the other person, which again, doesn't sort of promote any kind of understanding or, or, or, or positive movement in the relationship.
Yeah. So for me, the first thing is really about slowing everything down. And that could be a simple 'cause taking a breath or taking a slightly extended breath. When we do that, we're encouraging the brain to go into system two. And what that means is even we, if we then speak up and challenge somebody on something, we, we might be saying pretty much something along similar sentiments as what we would've said 10 seconds before.
The manner in which we say it, the body language, the tone of voice, the pace, all of these kinds of things can be very, very different. Mm-hmm. And it can elicit a very different response from something. Again, this is an aspect of charisma. Yeah. Yeah, it's not, it's not transactions. It's not just about, this needs to be said, I'm just gonna say it.
It's, how am I gonna [00:19:00] say this? How is this gonna best land? Do I want to say it at all at this moment? Do I, do I wanna leave it and pick my battles? Or do I want pick up on this later when this person's gonna be more receptive to it? So again, it's this idea that we we're, we we're slowing things down, operate more, insistent to, and we, we we're using more nuance in terms of our, our choices.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Richard Reid: And really, really important. You know, people come away from situations and I can't understand why they got upset. All I said was X, Y, and Z, but it's the way you said it, right? It's the body language, everything else that goes with it. So this is, you know, this is a big part of what we, we cover in the charisma training and the book that I've written on the topic, it's, it's all about not just having the skills, it's, it's knowing how and when to use them.
Really, really important.
Céline Williams: So it's. I love that. And I think a couple of the things that I heard inside of that nuance, my gosh, I wish we could, we spend three hours just talking about the importance of nuance. 'cause
Yeah, [00:20:00] yeah.
I have thoughts on that, but also discernment and context, right? Being able to discern the, how, the appropriateness, the, for yourself and for other people.
And then the context of the situation matters. Hmm.
Richard Reid: Ab Absolutely, absolutely. And we tend to, you know, when we pick people up on their behaviors, we tend to take the direct route because it's, it's the quickest. But, but often showing curiosity for somebody's position again, doesn't mean you're, you're agreeing with them, but it, it's, it's a way of getting people to open up and, and often it, it, you can get into the realms of what we call Socratic questioning.
So in other words, you, you are asking questions for a position of, um, curiosity. Actually getting people to reflect and pick holes in their own arguments to reflect on their own position. Actually, I did come across as a bit aggressive there.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Richard Reid: Maybe I could have done it differently. So they are reaching their own conclusions rather than you dictating what the conclusion should be.
Céline Williams: Yeah,
Richard Reid: yeah. I guess, you know, dictating what the conclusions [00:21:00] should be, that's kind of the nuclear option. Sometimes you have to go there, but there are numerous steps you can take before you need to consider that.
Céline Williams: I love, I mean, again, IS. So wholeheartedly agree with that. Uh, curiosity is so undervalued, um, especially in leaders because we have created this society where we think the expectation is that leaders just know the answer.
And so curiosity has historically not been encouraged. And it sounds like curiosity is a big piece of charisma. Whether or not you have it like this is one of the, but it sounds like it's a, it's an important aspect of being charismatic.
Richard Reid: Massively because it's, it, again, it's an element of humility hu humility to it.
But it's also about trying to understand people at a deeper level. And even if ultimately you are disagreeing with somebody, that's really profound for people. Pe people don't tend to have those experiences of, of people and, and sometimes reflecting back what you are hearing, somebody says, [00:22:00] say they, they suddenly hear their own words.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Richard Reid: In a way that they don't, when it just comes outta their mouths and as it sounds,
yeah. And they think,
Richard Reid: wow, did I really just say it? Do I really say that?
Céline Williams: Yes. Yes. I love that. Um, at the the other thing that I wanted to say when you were talking about people being direct I, and this is an opinion and you tell me if you please push back.
I think that we often confuse being direct with being blunt. 'cause I think directness has kindness in it, so it is in service of the other person. And so we are being curious is, can be a way of being direct to help someone open up their thinking.
Mm-hmm.
I think bluntness is when it's just, I need to say my opinion.
I need to say my thing regardless of the other person or people in this situation.
Richard Reid: Absolutely. That's, that's objectifying people. It's not about what's gonna elicit the best response for both of [00:23:00] us here. It's, I've got this impulse and I just have to get it out. And again, that's system one behavior.
Céline Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Reid: So, so, and then it becomes hit and miss and a lot of the time we call, we cause offense and we escalate things when we take that, that approach. So, you know, this is at the heart of it, just slowing things down a fraction. Yeah. Gives you time to reflect. Do I wanna say something? How do I wanna say that in a way which is best gonna register with the individual that's in front of me.
Yeah. It's not a case of the same approach is gonna work for everybody,
Céline Williams: so. Based on that, which, yes, the same approach is never gonna work for everybody. I, if, if, uh, anyone who listens to this podcast knows that I'm constantly, like, there's no such thing as one size fits all. It's my like,
Richard Reid: totally, totally.
The
Céline Williams: hill I'm gonna die on as a human is one size fits all, is not real. Um,
totally agree.
So acknowledging that, are there, um, when we talk about developing charisma or learning to be charismatic mm-hmm. What are [00:24:00] some, even if it's one thing that someone can do or a starting point, and I say that with recognizing developing emotional intelligence, but there's people who are gonna be like, well, I'm already doing that.
What else can I like, is there something I'm acknowledging that there's people in the world who will be thinking that, but given anyone can develop it, like what is an A tangible, something that someone can do to be developing or thinking about? Being charismatic in the way that you are really evangelizing, which is I think a really important leadership.
I think this version of charisma is really important for leadership in general.
Richard Reid: I, I, I think as human beings, we get, we get very focused on the content of what we say, including the content is, is important, but it, it almost, for me, this is, this is really. Important and really profound, but it's almost so simple.
It, it, it, it, it surely should be obvious, but it's not.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm. And
Richard Reid: it's when you engage with people, [00:25:00] think about your intention. What is the energy or emotion you want to create in that conversation? And, and that's almost like your north star, that actually you've got that in mind. If things start to deviate, you can, you can pull them back on track or you can frame whatever you want to say or do in terms that are more likely to elicit that response.
Because otherwise we, we, we tend to get pulled around by whatever the prevailing emotion is that gets presented.
Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Reid: Really important and, and you know, think about it, in this day and age even more so, we're operating at an even fastest, faster pace. We do, you know, we do lots of things on Zoom or teams.
So, whereas before you might move between meeting rooms or, or different locations and have a time to reset you, you literally go from one meeting to the next and, and, you know, there's lots of research, for example, that's been done by Microsoft about the impact that has on the brain and essentially, um, activates system one, the brain.
It generates more stress if we have back to back meetings. And again, it, it, it provides a little obvious opportunity. [00:26:00] To think about intentions, to think about what emotion am I carrying and is that actually conducive to what I wanna do in my next meeting.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm. So we get
Richard Reid: emotional leakage. You know, I might have had a very, very, very difficult meeting.
I've now gotta get to another meeting where I need to be fully engaged and my mind might be back there and my emotions might be quite rattled.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Richard Reid: So even if we've only got 30 seconds between those, those calls, taking a moment just to register the emotion or to think about my intention for that next meeting.
Make all, all the difference. Otherwise, you, you, it's a lottery. You're leaving it open to, to whatever initially presents itself.
Céline Williams: Yeah. I love that and I think that is very doable for people. And you know, I always, I'm a big advocate for changing our physical state, even if it's just like standing and stretching.
So I would say take that 30 seconds, think about your intention and stand and stretch. Like, just move our body a little bit. Absolutely big one. 'cause to your point, when we're just on these videos constantly, we're not doing, like when I worked in an office, [00:27:00] we were constantly moving from room to room between meetings and you were chatting with people and talking about different things Yeah.
And stopping from. Yeah. So it was, you just naturally were disengaged from what you were doing before. Yeah. If we don't create that space now, we're not doing it.
Richard Reid: You, you're, you're so right. You know, I, I'm a big advocate of that. I, I talk a lot about and, and you may be familiar with that. I talk a lot about, um, Amy Cuddy
Céline Williams: mm-hmm.
The research
Richard Reid: of Amy Cuddy.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Richard Reid: So, I, I, in other words, you know, you know what, a lot of the time we talk about how our thoughts and emotions can affect our physicality, but her research is really about how your physicality can feed back into that.
Céline Williams: Yes. So,
Richard Reid: in other words, you know, making yourself bigger can increase your testo testosterone levels make yourself smaller, generates more cortisol.
And, and sometimes, you know, it, it might not just be about, um, stress. Sometimes it can be that, that maybe we're a big, we're a big extrovert and we're dealing with somebody who's very introverted. And I, and, and I've seen examples of this, so I'll give you a very simple [00:28:00] example of where this pla is played out,
Céline Williams: please.
A few
Richard Reid: years ago there, there was a chat show in the UK called the Graham Norton Show on BBC. And they had
great show that it's Yeah, great show. Quite funny
Richard Reid: show. Yeah. And, and they had three, three different people on, they had, um. So some of you, your viewers may not know, know this band, but there's a band in the UK called Take That.
So they had Gary Barlow from Take That they had Tom Jones, the singer. Mm-hmm. And, and so both of them were interviewed. All went really well. And then the last person to come on the sofa was Will Smith. And you know, will Smith High Energy, really high energy, very entertaining. But it was interesting when he came on, even when there was a question that was open to all three people, he would dominate and you could see the other two.
Who, you know, are pretty confident people getting quieter and quieter and actually physically shrinking.
Wow. Yeah.
Richard Reid: You can see it on, on, on the screen. You know, it was quite, do what I do, it was quite uncomfortable. I dunno whether other people would've picked up on it or not. Maybe they would. But this goes back to my point that actually [00:29:00] that was all about Will Smith.
And yes, he was there to plug a film, but, um, you know, you think about that in a typical situation. We've probably all been in situations like that where you've got somebody who's larger than life, very entertaining. But it doesn't actually make you feel good about yourself because actually you don't get a word in edgeways.
The energy may be, you know, I, I speak as an introvert, the energy may be far higher than your natural energy. And, and as much as you might try and raise the bar, it's very hard and very tiring for somebody who's not like that.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Richard Reid: So being considerate of that and, and even we don't know what somebody's energy is, trying to pick up on that very early on in the conversation is really, really important in terms of putting people at ease.
They don't feel like they've gotta strain or compete. And sometimes we might want to adapt our energy as well because actually somebody's in a low mood, we could, we wanna match that and gradually draw them out of it.
Yep. Well and it's, I love the example of Graham Norton 'cause it makes me think of, and I cannot remember the actress's name, but there's a British actress who has uh, been on a number of times and tells hilarious.
Also [00:30:00] Emma Thompson is great at this, just tells hilarious stories that are completely. Often raunchy go in directions you're not expecting.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
And it does not matter who is on the couch with them. They include the other people in their stories in a way that it sounds like Will Smith does, didn't do.
Which is the even, first of all, it means the other people are laughing hysterically the whole time. 'cause they feel like they're being spoken to and they are part of the conversation, not
Richard Reid: abso it's not performance.
Yes. So. That. I love the example you gave 'cause it immediately made me think of something related but different where it's like you can it, there are clearly better ways, better as in more effective ways to show up in those moments.
Richard Reid: Yeah, absolutely. You're making people feel seen.
Yeah. You are making them feel
Richard Reid: I important, not more important to you as, as important as you.
Yeah. They're, they're a partner. They're a part of this. They're not just an observer. So
Richard Reid: you are [00:31:00] create. So, so again, it's this idea. You're not talking at people. You, you are, you are creating something between you.
Yes. Even if you are the one who's, who's, who's driving the conversation.
Céline Williams: Yeah. Um, I love that. Before we wrap this up, I wanna, I'm gonna ask the question, which is kind of vague on purpose, which is, is there anything we didn't get to that you would like to make sure that you say while we're here? Or is there something that you're like, walk away remembering this.
Richard Reid: So, so one, one thing that, that this, this is sort of, um, you talked about the, the hill that you would die on. This is one of the hills that I would, I would die on. It's, it's silence. Mm.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Richard Reid: We we're really uncomfortable as people with, with the idea of silence and, and tr training as a therapist. That was one of the things that we learned early on.
And, and don't get me wrong, I absolutely hated it to, to begin with, but you get comfortable sort of judging it. But, most of us, when we have silence, we exaggerate the length of that silence in our own heads. And actually it's, it's not necessarily as long as it might seem to, to other people.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Richard Reid: Um, so there's often a, often, often a mismatch about, about [00:32:00] that time. Uh, but the reason why silence is really, really important is because it gives other people more time to reflect on what they're saying and to refine it or add to it. So they get more of an understanding of their position and, and we do as well.
And again, uh, that's not most people's normal experience of conversations. So I've gotta give you the first answer and you're gonna hold me to account for the first answer. So again, it's, it's, it's a special kind of interaction.
Céline Williams: Mm. So I
Richard Reid: think that's, that's really important. It also means that we buy ourselves time to manage our emotions.
We don't dive straight in, we don't hijack the conversation and make it all about us. So it has a different flowing di dynamic to it. So. I think it's really important, and it's also really important in terms of charisma because it promotes what we call gravitas. So gravitas literally means weight. But if you think about people who, who we hold in high respect, particularly sort of in the business world, if we're in a meeting or a conversation with somebody, they're not the people who talk all the time necessarily.
They talk when they're adding value and when they don't, they're quite comfortable [00:33:00] with, with holding back. But because they don't speak all the time, people, people recognize that they're holding values. They, they don't feel they've gotta justify themselves. They're not dictated to in terms of the same pacings that other people are.
They don't rush things. So again, it's measured, it feels considered. And even if they're just saying what they might've said, you know, if they, they'd said it 10 seconds before, it has a very different impact with people. So I would say to people, even in your everyday conversations with friends and and loved ones, experiment a little bit, decided to see if you get something different from the conversation.
Céline Williams: I love that. And it's not. Man, I wish it was something I heard more often, but it truly is not something I, I hear very often as being important, and I could not agree with you more. I think we underestimate how important silence is and how, and I also think that now more than ever, we are so used to being stimulated constantly by things.
Richard Reid: Absolutely
Céline Williams: that [00:34:00] that idea of silence or someone pausing and thinking is like, oh, we have to fill everything 'cause I need to be constantly stimulated and I think it's going to get worse. Yeah, it's
Richard Reid: anxiety. Yeah, it's anxiety prompts you to do that.
Céline Williams: Yeah. Um, so I love that. I say all the time, I mean, I don't have children, so full disclosure, but I will tell people like, I'm astonished that kids today and younger generations don't know what it is to be bored.
Richard Reid: Because being, being bored within reason is massively important. Right. In terms of creativity.
And also it gets you comfortable with silence. 'cause when you're
Richard Reid: Yeah.
Céline Williams: Figuring stuff out on your own, there are quiet time. It, like, that's part of being bored is quiet.
Richard Reid: Absolutely. And, and tolerating the discomfort that comes with that.
You know, it, it builds resilience.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Richard Reid: There are gonna be situations that are outside of your control. So learning to manage your emotional reaction status is really, really important.
Céline Williams: Yeah. I could talk to you for 17 hours. I'm not going to, because I wanna be respectful of your time, but I could, 'cause I love this kind of thing.
So I wanna thank you so much for coming and chatting [00:35:00] with us. Where is the best place for people to connect with you online? It will be in the show notes, but we'll say it out loud anyways for anyone listening.
Richard Reid: Sure. So two places you can find me. One is LinkedIn, so it's Richard Reids spelled REID. Or you can go to my website, which is richard reid.com.
Perfect. Everything will be linked in the show notes, including the book. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was really very enjoyable and very insightful, and I com I so appreciate that.
Richard Reid: I, I really enjoyed it. Thank you for making it so comfortable. Thank you.
Céline Williams: My pleasure. Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast.
If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.