In this episode, we are talking to the Founder and CEO of Vivo Team, Renée Safrata, about being a responsive (rather than a reactive) leader and how to remain calm and confident in times of crisis. She talks about what her team did to not only survive but THRIVE during Covid and how to build confidence from one change or problem to the next.
Over the past 30+ years, Renée Safrata has worked with thousands of companies and executives throughout North America and Europe, helping them to connect, adopt new behaviors, and become confident members of highly functioning teams.
This episode is chock-full of pertinent questions, tools, and strategies.
Listen in for:
- clarity-giving and confidence
- building questions
- 6 Power Tools to add to your belt
- 3 F Words you should be implementing
- access to a SWAG Bag (free resources galore)
- and some great quotes
Renée reminds us that, even (and maybe especially) when leading through crisis, we might as well "enjoy it... learn from it... build our confidence. Why not? We all have just this one life to live."
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As Founder and CEO, Renée Safrata oversees Vivo Team’s full-spectrum learning experience and develops leaders and teams through live, online training, coaching, and people analytics. For more about Renée, Vivo Team, and/or to grab your SWAG Bag, visit vivoteam.com.
You can also connect with Renée and the Team on all social networks by searching Vivo Team Development.
- I'm Céline Williams, and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Renée Safrata, who's the CEO of VIVO Team, and who I've had the pleasure of speaking to a few times now, and I'm really excited about this. Welcome to the show.
Thanks, Céline, happy to be here.
So I'm gonna, as we were just talking about this, I'm gonna give the warning up front. I have a bad cough, so if I'm coughing through any of this, apologies to all the listeners and to you. And per usual, I start these conversations by asking the question, the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis, when you hear that, what comes up for you, or what does that mean to you?
Yeah, couple things. First of all, my stomach gets a little fluttery as soon as I hear it, and second of all, I think, yeah, that's the challenge of being a leader is that crisis and change happens regularly, and we need to develop our acumen in order to handle it and to handle it well. But business really, professional lives and personal lives is all about solving problems. So it's just a, it's a problem that attaches a lot of emotion and stress, right? Stress and anxiety. So if you have the ability to go through some crises, and you can give yourself a pat on the back, then I, all of us can develop our acumen with how to approach it the next time around.
I love that, and I especially love the frame of, 'cause implicit in that is taking the lessons from it, right? So not just getting stuck in it, but being aware of what are the lessons, what can I take forward into a different situation, 'cause every crisis and change is different, but there are still lessons in it that can, we can reframe, or offer perspective or whatever the case may be as you move forward.
Yeah, I think it's a really great message to myself to say, "I've been here before, what do I need to do in this case?" But that is a confidence builder, "I've been here before, now let's go, "what do we need to do?"
So I'm gonna ask a question about that, before we get into some of the other meaty things that I know we're gonna talk about. And that is, I think a lot of people, because each crisis looks different, or change will look different, right? So it's never the same exact, well hopefully it's never the exact same as the last time, there are differences, because of that, they get hung up on or stuck in, "I haven't been here before because this is different, "and new and I know what to do." And that anxiety, panic, whatever it might be, kicks in. And when you say that for you, there's that acknowledgement of "I have been here before." How do you, where is that balance in there for you? What does that look like for you? Because I think that's a really important perspective for the person that's like, "Everything is different and new and I can't, "I don't have new lessons. "What do I do?" 'Cause that happens so often.
Well, and I think you're right, it fuels the anxiety, it really fuels the anxiety. It fuels my "I'm in crisis." It fuels the drama of it, the histrionics of it, but actually the way to think about it is, if you think of crisis or change sort of under the iceberg, the difference of which crisis and which change is above the iceberg. So if we can just tap into tools, resources, past experiences, what worked well, what didn't work well, learnings that are underneath there, and just go, "Now how do I apply that differently?", it's a lot easier. And to deal with fact, not story, like not all of the, some of us love to be in the drama spin.
And by some of us you mean all the media? Just ...
All the media, yeah. So I guess the question is what do, what am I getting out of this drama? Oh, I'm getting attention. 'Cause Pete, you know, my husband now thinks I'm really stressed, so he's bringing me a glass of wine at the end of the day. Well, you know, really? There has to be something that I'm getting out of it, if I'm in it. So I find it a lot simpler, but I'm going to say I've been there, I've been the drama queen, I've been the histrionic, I've learned how to do it differently. I find it much more useful for my blood pressure, and for my stress hormones that I recognize that I have a great team of people around me, a number of advisors, mentors that I can call upon, who perhaps have been there as well, and if I really lean and depend on that team, then I can move through it day by day by day, and it will change. For example, you and I just had a conversation about your cough today. There's so many people dealing with coughs right now, they're three weeks in, but it will change, you will get out of your cough, and you have had a cough before in your life, right? But I think we kind of go, "Oh, it's the COVID cough, "it's never gonna be over." It will, it will.
Yep. All things come to an end in some way, shape, or form. So, you know, that is an important frame, and I wanna kind of repeat one of the things that you said, which is when you are in that crisis, and people are in the crisis, when you are basking in the drama, whatever the case may be, it's the question of what am I getting out of this? It's a really common coaching question. We ask it a lot to people, right? Like, okay, so like what are you getting out of this? And people hate it, because if it's something that they don't want or a negative situation, everyone is like, "I'm not getting anything outta this, "I'm just ...", meh meh meh. But if you dig into it, we always are getting something out of it. We might be in denial about what that is, or not wanna look at it, but it is a, I think it's a really important question that what's in it for me, the version of what's in it for me, even inside of crappy situations, hard question to ask, but it's a really good frame and I love that you said that, because I don't think we talk about it enough.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so let's take that one step further.
Please.
If I am in my spin, I'm spinning others. And so now we've just got this perpetual spin of energy, and so I actually become the enabler to other people's stress and drama. I'm fueling it, just have the image of putting kindling on the fire. I'm fueling it. You know, I'll say something about that. We work with, obviously at VIVO Team, we're putting the fun into dysfunction. We say we work with teams and leaders, and there have been on occasion where we're working with such dysfunctional teams that I put the message out to my team, okay, let's just call it, let's name it, this team is in chaos. And so our job is to create the steadiness of the ship. Our job is not to get into their spin, because that's not gonna serve us well, right? And so same thing with COVID, you know, let's speak to the COVID story. COVID was this sort of global pandemic that was happening, this unknown, if we all think back to the days that we were locked down, and none of us even had been born or experienced a pandemic before and we really didn't know what we didn't know. Everyone is in that, "I don't know what I don't know", and there's a fear-based context to that. But if we at VIVO Team could figure out perhaps even with scientifically wild ass guesses, swags, we call them, well what do we know? And now let's just batten down the hatches here internally, figure out what we can do to help our people, consider our products, consider our customers, what do we know, and what can we best future vision will happen, and by when, what if we did that and we batten down the hatches, and we just worked that plan. And that's what we did actually at VIVO Team. And it was, you know, I have great pride in that story, that as a team, we reached our milestone date of a five point plan, three months in advance of where we thought it was going to to end. And so it was great to be able to say to the team three months in advance while the pandemic was still going on, "We have thrived, we're not still in survival mode." We have thrived and we are well, the business is well, we are well, now let's go on those foundations, and to actually shift for all of them, for all of them and for myself, the message that we are now on a success path, a growth path, a scale path, let's get going and let's keep those hatches batten down but grow within them, essentially. I don't know if that kind of resonates, but look at, we're still in it. You're still coughing. You know, we are still, we still have a viral load, as we enter into the fall, and yet there are businesses that some of them have thrived, some of, you know, you just drive down the street, sometimes it's a sad story right now to drive down the street, and see the 1,000 square foot retail shops who have been, they've gone, they're not here anymore. And you think to yourself, "Wow, what are those families doing? "What's happening?" Well they could still be in that spin, right? And the spin is continuing for them. So I think it's just really important to think about each of those crisises, is that the word, that you've been through, right? And how together to take those learnings and how together can you in the future deal with any change or any tough time, I think right now, truthfully, if we don't acknowledge that change is a constant, you know, Covey was saying this 25, 30 years ago, that change was a constant. I remember he put out a video and I looked at it, and it was like he was standing by this white water, you know, saying change is a constant in corporations, and I was kinda like, I didn't really connect with that, but now I've had the personal experience, and I connect deeply with yeah change is constant. So the, you know, another thing, I'll just say, Céline, as well, a lot of people use this word of it's safe. Really? What is safe? Have you looked at the news or are you reading the paper? Like really it's a risk. How are you navigating risk, and in teams, do it, risk everything you can, navigate as well as you can and see where that goes. That's was interesting. I'll stop there 'cause I'm just rambling now.
No, you're not at all, and I think that the illusion of safety, the illusion of certainty are things that we, I think a lot of humans maybe, let me say humans in general, we are constantly looking for that, but they're illusions, certainty is not real, that's not a thing. Safety is not real. It's a, and look, and I say that as psychological safety, I get why that's important, 100%. But psychological safety, it's a feeling. It's not a real thing. It is a number of factors that come together, and while we want that, true safety is nothing beyond that. And yet so many people are looking for safe as this external thing that exists in the world, and I think you're not rambling, your point is right on the nose that risk is, we have to risk things, we have to stop the illusion of safety, and start risking things. And I would say, inherent in psychological safety is risk.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And we've all learned, we've all known the expression of the chicken before the egg or the egg before the chicken, or the pig before the chicken and the chicken before the pig, and all that kind of thing, and I always think about risk and confidence. What comes first? Do you risk first to build your confidence, or are you confident first to take a risk?
That's a good question. It's a good question.
Yeah, it is a good question. So how often do you hear, like, I think I was watching something on TV the other day and I, you know, it was some sort of probably some bad reality TV show or something and they were talking about, you know, I wanna be vulnerable in this context, and I wanted to be safe, and I've just, I'm very judgemental about that, because I think, well actually, if you could experience your vulnerability, your authenticity, and be willing to say to people, "We're taking a risk here, "but let's see what happens" and let's pull it back as problems occur, let's try to pull it back in a meaningful way, so that we can navigate the risk easily, then every day, my context is, I'm gonna be authentic, I'm gonna be out there, and I'm gonna try my best to navigate whatever comes into my world, and if I have the confidence that I can do that, I know how to navigate change, or I know how to navigate a crisis, then it's just put the structure in place, make sure you're highly communicating, you're tapping into those resources of people around you to help out, it's less scary I think.
Yeah. I agree with that, and it's, when you ask the question, you know, what comes first, risk or confidence, for me, when I hear that, what I think is, it's very similar to what comes first, like do you build momentum and that gives you confidence, or do you have confidence to build a momentum to keep working on something, and I think it is, you build the momentum, you take the risk, you don't really know what's gonna happen, and even if you fail over and over again, you build your confidence in being to navigate failure. You build your confidence in all these other things. And I think the narrative of work on your confidence first can be damaging in terms of stopping people from starting anything, or taking a risk, or whatever the case maybe true.
Agreed. And you know that again, too, what is it that you do, what is it that you do know? Like I think that's a really good question. What is it that you do know? Instead of, again, getting into the spin of what are all the things I don't know and getting worried, like don't they say 97% of the things that you worry about never happen, and I think that is what we did at VIVO Team with COVID was, what are the elements that we do know about are, the tough decisions we have to make about our people, the tough decisions or the hmm, innovative decisions we need to make about products, or the conversations we need to tap into with our customers, because really we had a number of existing, and a number of new customers, and what we recognize was that some of our tools, we hadn't even thought about this, that our existing customers had in their hands, which is our data and analytics around their people now had a new way of being. So before it was to identify strength of leadership, and strength of team effectiveness, well people now going into lockdown, if they read the data with that context, they had a lot of the answers. So a lot of the buyers that we were working with that had leadership analytics from us instead of making unbiased, or sorry, biased decisions about "Well, Sally's gotta go, "she's just not great, if we have to cut some people, "let's let her go because we just wanna let her go." Versus "Oh, let's look at the data actually, "let's look at how strong her team is "or how she's leading her team. "How is she going to do in a lockdown situation? "What will she put into place? "Because guess what, "she's got two kids and one dog walking over a laptop "at any given time, right?" So my point being is sort of looking at people, looking, communicating to customers, looking at our products, how do they resonate with people, I think as well, communication with customers, we didn't know how our customers were going to survive or thrive. And so it was an interesting conversation with our buyers, or to sort of say what what's gonna happen, and some of our buyers really surprised us, because we were a small Canadian company, they came to us and said, "Look, we're not in the business of killing our vendors, "so you might not get paid right now, "but you will by the end of the year." And that was, "Wow, they're leading the crisis "with what they know."
I wanna bring it back to something that you mentioned kind of in passing a couple of times, which is the five point plan that VIVO Team put into place used through the pandemic to navigate the crisis. And it sounds like it was very foundational for every, you know, let's say everything that you did, and for the confidence that you had, and all of the pieces that were kind of talking about that's related to this. So I'd love for you to share whatever you're comfortable sharing about that with our listeners, 'cause I think there's a lot in there for them to learn about.
Sure, sure. Yeah, it's a, well first of all five. I like anything that I can hold on one hand. So five, not 13, not 15, but five is really good. I think also it was really important for us, again, to think about what do we know, what are the critical factors that are gonna help us get to thrive, not survive, and how can we communicate really effectively from the perspective of we do, when I say we, as a leadership team, we know certain things, but we have, we are attached to employees who have families, who are across Canada with different viral loads across the country, how can we communicate at a high level so that all of us, and when I say batten down the hatches, the five point plan is the focus point. We are focusing on these five things. And I've mentioned as well, you know, those five things, that five point plan related to what are the people decisions that we have to make, we had to make some tough conversations, and we had to let some people go, that we knew the core team might have a significant impact if we didn't have those tough conversations. Products, are there products that are more relevant to teams and leaders right now? So for instance, in our space of learning and development, we saw a huge impact in teams that people, you know, C-suite executives and managers had really not considered what we call the invisible balance sheet, which is the people, they were only looking at the numbers balance sheet. Well all of a sudden if there's a shutdown, and your product is not going out the door, the numbers have gone down, but have you actually considered the people, like how are they doing, and what needs to happen to keep them connected. So we saw the trend of companies recognizing that managers had always been managing by observation. "Céline, you look really busy, "you look really busy right now", but now when I can't see you, and when you're not on video camera, I as a manager don't have my resources to make sure that you're really busy. Are you making sourdough bread in your kitchen? Well how does that result with our project being completed? Anyway, my point being is that then we looked, what, what were you gonna say?
That's why I said, yeah, yeah, that makes total sense.
Yeah. Yeah, so we started thinking about what products might be relevant, one of the things that we did was, and we still have it now, it's been a really great success, is we launched something called the swag bag. And the swag bag was just think about going to the birthday party and you get gifts, right? You get that little bag at the end of the day, and we thought we could launch a manager minute, this is all free stuff, manager minute, we could also do an Ask Dr. Jim, which was like a psychological safety, how are you keeping your mental wellness, how you know, what's concerning you, and then tips and tricks for structures that you could put into place to stay connected with your leaders and teams. We designed it as a two-way-dialogue. What that meant was we were not just producing content that we thought was of interest, but that we would say to our customers, "Look, you can't afford us right now, we get that, "but we wanna stay in contact with you. "So send us an email of what are the things "that are crossing your Zoom rooms, your team, "what are you hearing, what's happening there, "what do you need, "and just send us an email and tell us, "and we will produce a piece, because if you're telling us, "probably other people are telling us, as well. Well that's a huge success, so if anybody wants to sign up for a swag bag, just go to vivoteam.com and sign up for it, because you as well have the opportunity to tell us, "Hey VIVO Team, could you talk about this? "Cause this is what I'm dealing with", and we will. So that was sort of, you know, one of the product pieces. But we had other product pieces, and then as I said, customers making sure that we were looking at our balance of new and existing customers. While our existing customers were the ones who really void us through COVID, expanded what we were doing, because they knew who we were. It was tougher for us to get new customers. But anyway, back to the five point plan, what I would say about this, we took the time to create the five point plan, we communicated the five point plan to everybody on our team, they knew what it was, they had the opportunity to ask questions about it, the five point plan as well had a linear quality to it, meaning, you know, do .1 then moved to two point, the next point and perhaps .2 and three were happening in concert with one another, but we had a deadline. We believe that by the fiscal year end we'll be able to check the boxes of all of those plans. So everybody on the team knew the plan. And then what I did, which ended up being actually very helpful, was once a week we had a Slack channel that we called Connect 2020 at the time, and every week I promised everybody on the team, I'll turn the camera towards me, and I'll talk about how I see us navigating the plan. Where are we, where do we still need to do work, what's the situation out there? And that was great, because it was really easy just to turn on the video camera, pop it up onto Slack and then people could comment or ask additional questions. But the point being is that I think as well when you're working a five point plant, many of us can get into the heads down, no connection, no communication with others, and then others are freaking out, because they don't know what they don't know. But even if they know the bad ugly stuff, they have a calm, and they know that the problems are being solved, just not today, but the problems are getting solved. So as I said, we launched our five point plan, we worked the five point plan, that was the most important thing, and if you think about it really in a healthy global perspective, people having strategic plans that are five point plans on any given year is a good idea to align teams and leaders, so we activated that and then we were able to send out the message and have a party. We had a party at the three months prior to our due date, we had a party and we said, "Look it, we did all of this", we all celebrated our success, I think we all had a glass of wine or something like that on Zoom, and then the message was, "Okay, put that behind us, let's go." Because I think as well, it's really important to put things behind you, not be, again, in that world of the trauma, go, okay, learn from it, put it behind us, let's go on with what we need to do, and it has really helped our team maintain momentum, thrive and be excited about being a part of a pandemic where we did not know what would happen, but together we made it through kind of thing, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I think that I'm gonna, I have two questions but I'm gonna ask this question first. Once you completed that first five point plan, did you end up creating another five point plan for the next year?
That's called our strategic plan, yeah.
Okay.
So we, you know, we had a five point sort of crisis plan, and then every year we work, we have a strategic plan which has five things that we're doing in particular. And then, and we review it quarterly, and all the tactics and there's ownership across the board for that, budgets assigned, that kind of thing, yeah. I would say that the five point plan was led ... Was led more by core team, so what I mean by that is at VIVO Team, we have coaches and trainers that are on the outside, or partners that are outside, that would be a part of that strategic plan. This was sort of more, again, batten down the hatches, let's get through as a core team, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I appreciate the distinction 'cause I think that, first off, I think a lot of leadership teams put together strategic plans that have 100,000 points on them, which is, I'm always shocked by some of the ones that are out there, and the distinction between the similarities, and also the distinction between that five point plan, and a strategic plan I think is helpful for people to kind of look at how it would apply to them. So I appreciate that. I also want to note, I love what you said about, you know, when you're sharing the good, bad, and the ugly, people feel safety inside of that, and I think that transparency in that way, I feel like I talk about this all the time, but it cannot be emphasized enough, because when we're not talking about the problems, because we think it's going to, you know, give someone anxiety, you know, whatever the case may be, what we're actually doing is giving them anxiety, because it's not like they don't know there are problems. And it's better to know what the problems are, and know that you know, the leadership team knows that there are problems, than to think "Am I the only person who sees problems?" And that, so what you said is, in my opinion, so important because just having that conversation creates a sense of psychological safety for people.
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I'm gonna talk about this. So we did a great deal of research on what does it take a team to be effective, and we came up with what we call our six key indicators, which are essentially power skills, soft skills, right? So let's talk about what we talked about today so far. Communication, high level of communication, you've gotta keep the information loop going. Emotional intelligence, have the self-awareness, "Hey, I don't know what I don't know, "but I do know some things", and the self management of what I don't know, right? That whole iceberg conversations, have empathy for myself, but also empathy for the others, we talked about that, like yes there is a business, but yes this is attached to family. I'll say one other thing about that one. As leaders of the organization, we recognize that, you know, all this thing about healthy organizations and masked up and everything, we were really locked down, because we recognize that as leaders of the organization, if we went down, that would have a direct and significant impact on the team, and those families out there. So we were taking even extra precautions, and I think I've talked about this that a lot of, we saw a lot of employees trying to just get around that, and sorry about that, get around that, and not being aware of the other, like have empathy for other, social skills and leader assertiveness. Anyway, so communication, emotional intelligence, structures, five point plan, structure, cohesion, how do we be cohesive to get each of our little pieces of the puzzle done so that we can have a life as well within this, and not be completely stressed out, and then what your interactive feedback, which is sort of that whole having a feedback loop of being able to ask questions or saying "We didn't do that well or we did" like we had a product we put out there, nobody, nobody bit, nobody took it. So it was like "Eh, well okay, that failed. "Let's move on to another thing", right? What you're talking about is this whole idea of the paradigm shift of accountability, which is our sixth key indicator. So if I have, and it's paradigm shift, if I have this concept that I need to take care of others, I'm gonna stumble, it's a ineffective concept. But if I have the concept that we are all professionals, we are all adults, you are going to take care of yourself, my job is to take care of myself, and to now speak and be transparent about the good, bad and ugly, now we have an interesting, cohesive, collaborative way to engage. And if I have the ability on my teams to be emotionally intelligent, and to reveal, I'm having a tough time today, and I'm trying to pull it together, but I'm only 60% today, but that everybody else knows that, then those team members today who are at 100% can put in an extra 5% for you who's at 60%, that kind of thing, right? So I think those indicators have legs, and they have depth of information for people to really hang their hat on and work those indicators when they wanna lead through crisis or just day-to-day change.
Mm-hmm. Thank you for sharing that. I wanna ask, probably the last question I'm gonna ask, and then I will wrap this up, 'cause I could talk to you for the next four hours, I'm fully gonna acknowledge that. I do wanna ask, you mentioned interactive feedback, and my guess is that a lot of people have never heard that language with feedback. Could you explain a little bit what that means for people, because I think it is, especially as part of this researcher talking about some context and information for them would be helpful.
Sure. So interactive feedback is critical right now in organizations because if you think about the fact that we have five generations sitting adjacent to one another, the more seasoned been at work longer in the organizations, the traditionalists, the baby boomers have been brought up in a context of criticism, and they carry baggage with that professionally. It's, you know, it was generally personally targeted negative criticism or positive criticism. Whereas the younger generations, those that are coming out of their education or those who have been in the organizations now for quite some time actually, millennials and right down to to generation C, the COVID generation who are not yet in the workplace, but they will be soon-ish, 15 years or so, they have been brought up with parents who have given them directive, do more of that, it's a good thing to do more of, corrective, do less of that, that does not have a good impact on what you are doing for you, or what we're doing as a family or what you're doing as an athlete kind of thing. Those generations are putting pressure on corporations to change the paradigm and to help them with their career achievement so that there is more behavioral-based do more of that, do less of that. Consider it your career GPS essentially, your career positioning statement so that you know how to get where you need to get to in the organization. So we call it the three F words. Feedback is I notice this behavior, it's sort of backwards, feedback, and it has a, you know, positive or negative impact on project results, performance in the team, whatever that is, and feed forward is the second F word, which is my expectation is moving forward, do more of this, so it really helps leaders and managers get into this language of my expectation, to get the team and myself as the leader, manager aligned, all horses aligned to get into the right place, and then follow up. We have to test our assumptions. I think a lot of people think that the manager, the leader knows it all. They don't, they don't, they just are taking a risk. They're trying something. So if 30 days, you know, 30, 60, 90 days, we have the feedback loop of, well how is that feed forward working where do we need to shift it, where do we not need to shift it, again, we have an integrated cycle. These are the things that connect managers to their direct reports, that connect managers to their next-level leaders above them, and that create that dialogue in organizations which can really bring up the gems, the innovations, the new ways of doing things that perhaps we haven't considered before, right? Like just before we started this session, I said to you, 'cause I was looking for something on Slack, and I said to you, "Oh, you know, I'm searching through." And then I actually said to you, "Geez, if I really thought about "how younger people on my team would do this, "they would hit the search button and they'd search for it "easily and effortlessly and it would come up." Well I've had to unlearn this kind of old behavior of scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. But if I don't have an open mind, and I'm not willing to learn from others in an interactive feedback loop, so what that means, Céline, is I, as a leader, as a manager, I am tapping into what can I do differently? How can I do it differently? So now we're really, again, driving connection back to that invisible balance sheet, if companies are not instrumenting or implementing, rather, an interactive feedback culture, they're losing great people. And if they are not doing a reverse mentoring aspect, so that younger hires can actually reverse mentor to those boomers, to those traditionalists that still exist in the organization, again, there's a divide, there's a silo between, you know, we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, well there's inclusion. We've got to get those five generations who are sitting side by side to work together, and to learn from one another, unlearn, relearn, execute, right?
Absolutely.
I just said a lot. Was that what you were looking for?
That is perfect. I appreciate that. First off, thank you for taking the time to chat with me today and for sharing all of this. I think it is incredibly important, I appreciate how transparent and open you are about sharing your experience, and all of the frameworks, and structures, and specific things that you have shared that people can take and implement, I think that's really important, so thank you for sharing all of that. I do want to encourage everyone to go onto the VIVO Team website, and download the swag bag because, or sign up for the swag bag, download it, so I'm a whole different generation, sign up for it, 'cause I think that is wildly important and really valuable, and we will have links for everyone to be able to connect with and find you in the show notes. So thank you for taking the time to chat with me today, Renée, I really appreciate you.
Thank you. Thank you. As you say, you could talk to me for four hours, I equally could talk to you for four hours, so thank you.
We have to keep doing this
Let's do few more of this
over and over.
That's right. I'm sure we can think of something else to do together. Thank you so much for your time, I appreciate it, and for all of your listeners, who are leading through crisis, just enjoy it, learn from it, build the confidence, why not? We have one life to live.
Absolutely. Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.