What’s at stake when leaders are unprincipled, unethical, incompetent, and selfish? That’s what we get into in today’s episode with retired US Air Force officer, advocate, and author, Philippe Johnson. “Everything a leader says or does tells people what’s permissible and, perhaps more importantly, what’s not.”
In today’s episode of Leading Through Crisis, we explore the question, “What’s at stake when leaders are unprincipled, unethical, incompetent, and selfish?”
Philippe Johnson, a retired US Air Force officer, advocate for principled and ethical leadership, and author, shares his thoughts, particularly as they relate to public service and through the lens of Trump’s presidency.
Topics discussed:
◾️Paying attention to the competencies and personality traits that are being normalized
◾️Traits of problematic leaders to watch out for
◾️Principled loyalty vs blind loyalty, and loyalty over competence or ethics
◾️What’s at risk, on an organizational level and a larger, more macro or national level
“That’s the thing I want to diminish, loyalty for loyalty’s sake as a virtue. It’s not. The definition of loyalty is an allegiance that’s earned.”
Join us for a fascinating and perhaps horrifying conversation on What Hangs In The Balance (conveniently, also the name of Philippe’s book).
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Philippe Johnson is a retired United States Air Force officer and advocate for principled and ethical leadership in public service. The son of a language teacher and career United States Army officer, he was raised in the United States, France, and Germany. During his 24 years on active duty, Lieutenant Colonel Johnson served as a fixed- and rotary-wing pilot, intelligence officer, and diplomat (military attaché), and was honored with the Defense Meritorious Service Medal, the Meritorious Service Medal with two oak leaf clusters, and the Air Medal with one oak leaf cluster. He also served on the staffs of two Air Force major commands as his final two assignments. Philippe received a bachelor’s degree in political science from the University of Florida and earned his master’s degree in public policy from the University of Maryland’s School of Public Policy. He can be reached at www.philippejohnson.com.
Céline Williams: [00:00:00] I'm Céline Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis Podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Philippe Johnson, a retired US Air Force officer and author of "What Hangs in the Balance: the case for principled, ethical, competent, and courageously selfless leadership".
Welcome, Philippe.
Philippe Johnson: Thank you, Céline. It's good to be with you.
Céline Williams: I'm excited to chat with you today. But before we jump into everything, and I have no doubt, we'll have lots to talk about. I always ask the question, the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. When you hear that, what comes up for you?
Philippe Johnson: Oh, I think of in terms of, it can be private sector or public sector, but since my experience is public sector, I think of how one. Leads through a, crisis. And one thing that comes to mind immediately, because I wrote a rather lengthy chapter on it, was the COVID-19 pandemic. [00:01:00]
and, and how one does that effectively.
and, the other thing that comes to mind when you mention that is, which is also in the context of some of the things I've written about is how leaders deal with the crisis of having. Unethical or incompetent superiors and all the dynamics associated with that. Those are the two things that come to mind immediately.
Céline Williams: so I want, just because I love the, idea of the second point that you made the unethical superiors. Tell me more about that. Yeah. So tell me, just tell me more about that. What does, since that came to mind, when you think about leading through crisis?
Philippe Johnson: Yeah, so one of the, one of the big problems I see, especially in, public service recently is this notion of what I call [00:02:00] unprincipled loyalty, whereby people are, showing loyalty to, especially to superiors, but as I say, considered it unprincipled loyalty because it's not based on principle or some code of conduct.
It is based more on, on self-interest or some warped notion of reciprocity. did this for me. Now I have to help, this person, even though it may be unethical for me or unlawful for me to do that. the, antidote to that is to put principal and duty at the forefront of decision making.
And yeah. So there, there's there an, there's an example that comes to mind immediately.
from, President Trump's first term in office. And that was when he was trying to effectively corrupt or [00:03:00] weaponize the justice Department, trying to install somebody new in, in the, final weeks of his administration of the Justice Department.
Who would, effectively. try to get states to overturn their presidential vote. And the two leaders at the time, 'cause the, act, the attorney general had just resigned about a month prior to, Trump leaving office of the two folks who were in charge. The, acting attorney general.
Rosen and his deputy Donahue had to contend with this dynamic where they, where President Trump was trying to replace them. And, that was certainly a crisis. It was, a crisis depending, and a crisis that would be made worse depending on how they reacted.
But they, stuck to, principle.
they were ethical leaders. they made the case that, they were gonna resign and mass if [00:04:00] President Trump replaced them with this, other guy, Jeffrey Clark, who was willing to do Trump's bidding. But they also made the argument that what, what was in the nation's best interest was also in President Trump's best interest.
And in the end, Trump relented and did not replace them. And. further efforts. There had already been plenty of efforts by then, but further efforts to, try to overturn the election, stopped. Of course, that was just like three days before the, January 6th attack on the Capitol. So there was more to come, but at least that effort was slowed or stopped because those leaders stood fast, essentially in, in what was a crisis, a leadership crisis from above.
Céline Williams: I'm curious, and it may not be about them specifically, but is, does it make a difference or, I Okay, I'm gonna state an assumption [00:05:00] upfront. I assume it is easier to take a stand when you are not alone in taking said, stand against someone who is unethical. So there were two of them. It was not just one person on their own.
So the assumption is that it's easier when it's not only one person, you're not on your own doing it. And inside of that, how does one, what are some of the lessons learned or that could be, that someone could learn from this, let's put it that way. What are some of the things that someone could take away around finding someone to ally with when you're dealing with someone unethical above you or.
That for them to be able to stand on their own and, be courageous in that way because that's fair. I imagine ex I'm, saying I imagine even from my own, not that level of dealing with a president, it's scary to do that. [00:06:00] There's a lot of fear. You don't know what's gonna happen.
Philippe Johnson: It's getting scarier now with what's happening in, American government in terms of retaliation and, such, and potential prosecution of people who, were even been pardoned, but without getting too much into detail there.
yeah. it, yeah, it certainly takes more courage if, if you're acting on your own. that's why it's so important to, to, develop a culture of principle and ethical within an organization because there, yeah, there are strength in numbers. that said, if it's just a matter of getting fired or harassed, hopefully people still have the courage to, to do what's right, to stand up for principal anyway.
Yeah. So there might be more [00:07:00] that comes to mind.
Céline Williams: Yeah, that's, I'm gonna, while you think about that, I'm going to, I wanna, so what you said about developing a culture of principles and ethics, which I am very on board with, I a lot of the work that I do. Is with teams and around culture, right? Like it is how do we design culture intentionally?
So we're bringing out the best, and not just having it happen to us, right? Because it happens by default whether we want it to or not. And so when I think about a culture that is principled and ethical, how can.
Generally speaking, there's a kind of a two part here. Generally speaking, how can leaders create that culture? What has been, what are some insights that you might have around how do we create this leadership and culture? And [00:08:00] then also maybe how do we do it when the person who is leading is not that way when they are not setting that example?
Maybe. Yeah. And that's
Philippe Johnson: my primary concern, is that a lot of what we've seen lately and what I describe in the book are, being normalized, whether it's competencies or, personality traits. or disrespecting, the constitutional law. It's, obviously it's a leader's job to, to communicate expectations and to set the example, and that includes modeling all the, important leadership traits like empathy, humility, respect for dignity, discipline, self-control, all of those things.
Honesty. [00:09:00] It's, yeah. When, your superior is not modeling those things properly, you hope that your subordinates are still in touch with, what leadership should look like. But, all you can do is, do your job as leader within your organization to some extent. there are times when you may need to call out your superiors.
I've done that one-on-one before in a case where there was a, some sexual harassment going on in an organization, during a deployment overseas. And, I took the, I, took my subordinates. Account seriously. She was very credible. And, one of the first things I did was actually went to, our boss, sat down and talked to him for an hour.
It was more to say, [00:10:00] Hey, this is what I heard. But really it ended up being like a one hour, counseling session where I was counseling my superior. 'cause it was pretty clear that the allegations were valid. of course he denied everything and eventually it, went to a higher level.
but, Yeah.
Céline Williams: So I realize that I didn't ask this. I'm gonna take a step back for a second. What are, when we talk about, principled culture that is principled and ethical, or leaders that are principled and ethical, what does that really mean? what does what, are there specific behaviors associated with that?
Are there, how can you identify someone? Who is, I'm gonna say generically, I don't mean that dismissively, but like generically whole holistically principled and ethical. And I ask because [00:11:00] we all have different traits, competencies, behaviors that are ours based on our values individually. But it sounds like what you're talking about is not just, and obviously not just our individual values, right?
So how do we identify that?
Philippe Johnson: Yeah. 'cause we all come into an organization, whether it's a private sector organization or a government organization with our own, experiences, values. But at some point, and to some extent, those need to gel with the organization, the, core values and principles of an organization.
Céline Williams: Absolutely.
Philippe Johnson: And, that's the job of leadership. you have to, the leader's job is to promote those organizational. Core values and principles. and for example, in public service that starts with, the Constitution and, other values that are enshrined in the Constitution. [00:12:00] being, acting out a principle is. Requires courage as we discussed earlier, despite the fact that there might be risks to your career and to your personal safety. we've seen plenty of examples of that recently, and hopefully we'll see more despite, the fact that people are afraid.
even newspapers are, afraid, for example, to criticize, president Trump these days. with respect to lead to, ethical leadership. there, I think again, it's about character. And, and that's, crucial for fostering trust with subordinates, stakeholders, and the general public, if you're in public service and, ethical decision making or ethical leadership is so important for decision making as well.
and, as I [00:13:00] was addressing earlier unprincipled or principled loyalty. Is an important part of, principal leadership as well. And that can mean things like, still supporting a boss that you don't like. as long as that what that boss is doing is, ethical and legal. so not sure if I completely answered your question there, but you
Céline Williams: No, it's, that's okay.
It's, you don't, I, so the principle, so I, when you talk about principled loyalty. actually, can we talk about loyalty in general? Is that,
Philippe Johnson: yeah.
Céline Williams: because I think that, we have a example in the public sphere right now in the US government of loyalty in action, and maybe not the most principled ways.
and I think,
Philippe Johnson: but people tur completely doing a 180 on [00:14:00] what they would've espoused or, purported to believe in, four, eight years ago. And it's because, sorry to interrupt, but No, please. Proximity to power they crave or, this, need to be part of some group in leadership or it's amazing.
And you go back and look at quotes from, again, four, eight years ago and then. Compare that to what people who are in the current Trump administration are saying publicly. it's, frustrating and it's, ridiculous in terms of, not sticking to your principles because I'm sure it's not based on an evolution of thinking, it's more circumstantial.
I wanna be in this job. I don't want to be retaliated against, et cetera. So I'm going to, I'm going to, Do what I, consider to be loyal, even though it's so unprincipled and in many cases unethical. [00:15:00]
Céline Williams: So how do we, and I'm not sure I'm gonna fully acknowledge that as I'm saying this.
I'm probably not gonna word this question effectively because it's a thought question in the sense that I think most people believe. That loyalty is important and it matters, and we talk about it in terms of personal relationships, in terms of family, in terms of, if you go back to blood is thicker than water, that is a version of loyalty, right?
there is a, that is ingrained in how many of us are socialized to believe the world should work. Loyalty matters, right? There's people that will talk about loyalty first, et cetera, et cetera. So acknowledging that Exists in the world. How do we find, is there a balance? How do you, how do we, I don't know, [00:16:00] ju I it, I'm gonna say justify, but that's also not the world.
What does the word, what? What is what do we do? What do we do when the world is like loyalty matters most and on a global stage, loyalty being rewarded in a way where it is essentially don't think critically about anything. Just be loyal. How do we. Step into even discerning, loyalty that is principled, that is ethical, has that element versus just loyalty.
'cause that's what we are rewarded for. Told matters.
Philippe Johnson: Yeah. And that's, the, not the myth, it's not the right word, but it's, the idea that I want to. Diminish is that loyalty for loyalty's sake is a virtue. It's not. And so you'll see people, whether it's in personal, private family [00:17:00] situations, this idea that we'll all do anything for family really is that principle.
You're gonna break the law for your relatives because maybe you owe them a little money and supposedly, that's, your idea of being loyalty. yeah. The world. May believe in that. I think people who are principled and, ethical, I, think they can get beyond that.
again, your loyalty should be based on, on, if you look at the definition of loyalty, I don't remember offhand what it is, but basically it's allegiance. To, to a person or a country or an institution or whatever, but it's usually based where, that allegiance is, due or something like that.
Yeah. To the effect where it's, earned essentially. Oh. now if you have a boss [00:18:00] that you know, your boss's loyalty is essentially earned by, the fact that person is your boss. You don't have to like him. He doesn't have to be the most competent or she or whatever. as long as the person's ethical and reasonably competent, you should, you should respect and, loyally serve that person.
but the problem that we see is we see employees showing unprincipled loyalty to their superiors. And then superiors expecting unprincipled loyalty from their subordinates. And then yet again superiors demonstrating unprincipled to their, loyalty to their subordinates. And by that for example, like showing prefer preferential or prejudicial treatment.
As we call in the military, I think different Spanx for different ranks. I. Yeah. And so one of the way, one of the places you [00:19:00] see this unprincipled loyalty a lot, whether it's in the real world or on tv, is with police departments. I'm just using that as an example, but yeah. they, feel this pressure to cover for each other.
And, so I wanted dispel this notion that it's somehow disloyal to report serious misconduct because it's not, you're being loyal to your subordinates, your peers, your superiors, to the values of your organization. When you do that, I. And, you may take some heat for it, but that's, part of the courage of showing leadership.
So one of the things we saw after the, murder of George Floyd in, 2020, I believe by the police officers, is there was an emphasis by police departments all over the country on bystander intervention training. And that's essentially a way [00:20:00] to. To, to promote principled leadership, or principled loyalty, sorry.
And leadership and to, dispel this notion that you have to, protect each other. I think with the police, sometimes it, maybe it has to do with the fact that they, they, put their lives at risk. There's more of, there's, more of an element of physical danger, and so maybe that's why there's a need to protect each other, but.
that, that happens everywhere though. People feel like they're not being loyal if they don't protect the, misconduct of people that are close to them or people who have done something to them or for them rather. yeah, where I was going with that, but yeah.
Céline Williams: I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I wanna ask you a question about that because when you talk about the bystander.
Training, I you said intervention training? Yeah. Thank you. Bystander intervention training.
Philippe Johnson: Yeah. [00:21:00]
Céline Williams: I am assuming that is the, the other officers who were on the scene, very famously in the George Floyd case, they were two really young officers. They were both in their, like first week or something like that.
And or one of them was like, they were quite young, inexperienced, and they didn't. Like they didn't speak up, even though they have said that they knew this wasn't going well by any stretch. They didn't feel they could speak up because of the power dynamics at play. Okay. And so I assume the, bystander intervention training is for, it's in situations for, maybe not only, but especially where there is that kind of power dynamic or a, In some way, shape, or form. Is that fair? Or is it,
Philippe Johnson: I think it's most, it's more important in those situations because people are less likely to speak up. They're more likely [00:22:00] to show excessive deference. Yes. there's the same dynamic, 'cause I was an Air Force pilot. There's the same dynamic in flying when you're flying with a, a pilot who is much, much more senior, than you.
There's this, it's called a halo effect or something, but it's this notion that person can't do wrong. And so there's a reluctance even as a, copilot or junior pilot, when you see something dangerous that's happening similar to, police situation. A reluctance. A reluctance to speak up, like it's not your place.
Yeah. And that's where, the more people are grounded in, ethics or the more, they're grounded in principle and, have a strong, I don't know, their, personalities, undergirded or whatever, by a strong sense of, ethics and external, [00:23:00] moral components, then, they're more likely to.
To, speak up, to do something when they see something, that's not right.
Céline Williams: So I think about how one would create environments like this or cultures like this in organizations of all sorts, because this happens in hospital settings with surgeons. It happens in, I. We know it all, all over the place. It's, there's very famous stories of manufacturers where people didn't, they knew something wasn't gonna work and people didn't speak up until it was too late.
'cause that wasn't, what was being told to them was the way things were supposed to go. So there's lots of examples, not only military and police, but tons of other places where people don't speak up and they don't, at the end of the day they are going against their. They're misaligned, maybe is a better way of putting it with their [00:24:00] principles or ethics in those moments.
and, misaligned with the principles and ethics of the leaders in some way, shape or form. And I think that there is a, there are more challenges for women to speak up in moments like that. I think it's more challenging for anyone who is. Queer or black or disabled or whatever, intersectionality of these things may exist and they're, and they are often, the people who are really seeing it from a different perspective and able to speak up.
I think that's just real, but it's, the repercussions are different. And there's often real fear, right? there are, there's. As a woman, the potential for violence in situations is very different for me than it is for a man. So [00:25:00] I am acknowledging all of that to say, how do we, what can we do?
What can leaders do? How do we change that? How do we, and I know this is just an opinion, right? but in order to create these environments where principled leadership exists, ethical leadership exists, competent leadership exists.
I think these things matter.
Philippe Johnson: Yeah. and the first thing I think of is it's about setting the example. everything a leader does or says, tells people what's, permissible, what's acceptable, what might be tolerated, and, more importantly, what can't be tolerated. In terms of, hearing different voices, that what, I thought of there was the problem of leaders not [00:26:00] being sufficiently open to, information flow or different points of view.
And, part of that is the ability to suppress personal bias. And, with President Trump, for example, that was a, apparently an issue, with him, according to one of his senior subordinates in his first term. Or knowingly suppressing information that is coming from subordinates. one, one.
Example that came to mind right away was, it was, I think the space shuttle accident. a challenger I think was when it exploded in 1984. I can't remember what year it was. But anyway, part of the problem there was a lot of descent from it. It speaks to exactly what you were saying a minute ago.
There was a lot of dissent from one of the contractors about a safety issue and that information was suppressed. Essentially ignored by some of the leadership, I [00:27:00] think, either at the contract or with the contractor, or with NASA and, yeah, with, terrible consequences. yeah, I lost track of my, what I was gonna say.
No,
Céline Williams: but that is, to, I'm gonna reference the name of your book 'cause I think it's a great name. Those are the things that hang in the balance. Yeah.
Philippe Johnson: Yeah. So when I wrote the book, what I was thinking there was, it's another way of saying what's at risk, what's at risk? And when we don't have principled, ethical, competent, and selfless leadership at the organizational level, it's things like morale, retention, the ability to recruit, and then, ultimately, and most importantly, mission accomplishment at a more macro or national level, what's at risk.
Are things like quality of life or life itself, even on [00:28:00] occasion. good governance, respect for democratic institutions, national security, and as we're seeing now in the US unfortunately to some extent the rule of law.
Céline Williams: Yeah, that seems like a lot at risk.
Philippe Johnson: It is, and that's why it's so important to, to, for me to help people understand what principal, ethical, competent, and selfless leadership looks like, what it doesn't look like and what the consequences of that are.
And, the context of my book, which is really about, leadership in the context of the first Trump administration. It, the importance of not normalizing, what I describe. Is essentially in many cases, unprincipled, unethical, and un, and incompetent leadership. Yeah.
Céline Williams: So some of [00:29:00] the personality traits of an unethical or unprincipled leader are obvious, right?
I think dishonest. If someone is blatantly lying about something, we can all see that. And I think often when we are bought into a situation, those subtle traits or subtle behaviors that show up that are undermining it, we don't, we may not know to pay attention to them and we should. And I'm wondering if there are consistent, personality traits that are a little bit more subtle, that aren't just like I'm boldly lying about the existence of whatever.
Philippe Johnson: Yeah, there's some more subtle things that come to mind that people may notice about their, superiors. some that come to mind to me in the context of Trump, because that, was the context of, my book was, for example, like a lack of curiosity.
Céline Williams: And,
Philippe Johnson: and maybe touch of laziness combined with that.
[00:30:00] and how that can affect you. Understanding your role and, importantly understanding your organization. If you don't, if you don't have much interest in learning, they say leaders are lifelong learners or whatever, and readers too. Some, will say. But, if you, don't understand, if you don't take the time to understand, for example, the roles of your subordinates, you're not going to be as an effective manager or leader.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Philippe Johnson: something I mentioned earlier that comes to mind too, is again, the inability to suppress personal bias, that along with arrogance are barriers to receiving and, and evaluating and accepting advice. and, that may go to what you were saying earlier about who that advice is coming from.
Is it coming from. A minority, or, a woman or, and, [00:31:00] yeah. When you said that earlier, what popped into my mind immediately was this guy who was apparently just, appointed somewhere in the US State Department, who had recently made a comment about, all we need is competent white men if we want things to get done properly, or something like that.
Wonderful. Here we are in 2025. Yeah. some other subtle things, I think like insecurity or low self-esteem. It may not be super obvious, but those things can, are more likely to lead somebody to bully, perhaps, and, to engage in retaliation. Yeah. and, and, to have an excessive need for validation and recognition, and as, Trump often does, to encourage others to do that.
Yep. To, to, provide him the validation he needs publicly. some other subtle things. Maybe the, notion, I don't know how subtle this is, but the notion that you're not accountable to [00:32:00] anybody else.
That's extremely problematic, whether it's in the private sector or the public sector. and certainly that can lead to a tolerance of misconduct by your own subordinates if you don't think that you need to be held accountable.
'cause accountability starts with, leadership, not just holding people accountable equitably within the organization, but the having the courage and, the, the wherewithal to hold yourself accountable and to be able to relay lessons about your own mistakes to your subordinates and the power that gives them to do the same.
to admit mistakes and to grow. let's see there. You mentioned un when we were talking about unprincipled loyalty. there, there are all these little traits that tend to contribute to these displays of unprincipled loyalty. Things [00:33:00] like a need to conform or be an insider.
those, that's not helpful.
Again, the lure of power and the need for approval, I. The emotional gratification people get from, displays of loyalty, even if, it's unprincipled and, pleasing others. And that goes both ways. People, the, emotional payoff for being loyal to, superior and, the payoff that a superior gets from, whether loyal or unprincipled loyalty to subordinate.
Yeah. Feeling that you're doing something for someone and, that's, a topic I get into too. Something I call narcissistic diplomacy. Something I witnessed when I was working in an embassy for four years, where you can get yourself in trouble if, you feel that, if you're thriving off this feeling, you get for doing something for others, especially a for foreign [00:34:00] counterpart when it's not appropriate.
And, I've seen the, consequences of that. let's see, sense of privilege. That's, I think another subtle thing. It's related to what I was saying about not, feeling that you're accountable to anyone, but it's a little different. a sense of privilege can be a barrier to empathy.
And we know that empathy is so important in the workplace. leaders who are empathetic tend to be better decision makers. They tend to have healthier and happier workers. They, people who interact more effectively and, their teams tend to be better problem solvers, et cetera. is there,
Céline Williams: can I interrupt for one second?
Yeah. I wanna hear more, but is there, I'm curious, is there, what the difference might be between entitlement and a sense of privilege in the way that you're talking about? Because I, [00:35:00] it sounds like there is a, difference and Yes. I think lots of people nowadays here sense of privilege and they just go, that's entitlement.
Don't think it's the exact same.
Philippe Johnson: No, not, exactly. I, would say privilege has more to do the way I'm describing it. With, relation to, to empathy is more about your upbringing.
Céline Williams: Perfect.
Philippe Johnson: 'cause I see empathy is coming from two sources. personal experience, personal suffering, and also awareness.
Awareness of, other people's suffering. Whether it's, and there are two examples, that, that come to mind. Historical examples. Jimmy Carter, president Carter, his awareness of the, racial discrimination that was going on in the, South, that he, felt that was one of the sources of his empathy.[00:36:00]
The other example was President, FDR Franklin Delano Roosevelt had polio. And a lot of historians feel that personal experience, that personal suffering, was a source of his empathy. I got off track there. Can you repeat what you were
Céline Williams: No, I just, I was asking what the, you were talking about sense of privilege and I interrupted you Oh, yes.
To clarify the difference.
Philippe Johnson: So,
yeah. I see privilege as being more with. Having to do more with one's background or versus entitlement, that, that may come from one's background and upbringing as well. But unfortunately that may be tied a lot to, narcissism, for example, which is another one of the subtle things I was gonna bring up.
And it may not, that may not be a very subtle personality trait, it includes behaviors like having a. Grandiose sense of self-importance being interpersonally exploitative, which can [00:37:00] result in exploiting people and institutions. Yeah. If you're in public service, and as I mentioned a second ago, engaging in what I call narcissistic diplomacy.
so I, yeah, I think there is a difference there. And, as far as being entitled, one of the things that, is most concerning to me there is, people. Feeling entitled to that which they're not entitled to. whether it's, authorities in government or, personal boundaries.
Céline Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate the clear, I appreciate the clarification because I do think a lot of times people hear privilege and they immediately go, that's just entitlement and. Not to what you're saying and it shouldn't be. And I appreciate you explaining it from, [00:38:00] your perspective and where your, the perspective you've written the book from.
'cause it matters that we clarify those things.
since I interrupted you when you were talking about, the sense of privilege. I don't wanna, if there were more pieces that you wanted to say, I don't wanna completely derail you and there's not, that's okay.
Philippe Johnson: No,
Céline Williams: so before we wrap this up, I wanna ask the question, is there something that we didn't get to that you wanna make sure we talk about, or something that we spoke about that you wanna emphasize at this point?
Philippe Johnson: something that came to mind when we were talking about loyalty there is this, it's something that's happening right now in, in American government, more so than it did in Trump's first term, and that's this emphasis, [00:39:00] of loyalty over competence.
And, the problems associated with that.
So when you do that. you're, probably prioritizing loyalty over ethics and, all the personality disorders that, include some of the subtle yet harmful things I was just talking about. people that are chosen primarily for their personal loyalty are more likely to engage in all kinds of expressions of unprincipled loyalty.
which can result in, them ignoring ethical compromises of their leaders and, subordinates or engaging in their own unethical, behavior. and, the other problem with that is when you focus on competence instead of loyalty, is the people in civil service, for example, that are, that who are always there, not the people that are [00:40:00] appointed.
Every time, a leader comes into office. Those folks often need to engage in, in necessary dissent and raise concerns. And when you're focused more on loyalty than competence, those people are gonna be afraid to speak up. And, that can be very problematic, and we touched on that earlier, but, yeah, this whole loyalty versus competence dynamic is, I think, a big issue right now.
Because I, think for example, in Trump's first term, he was hiring people that were fairly established and, reasonably competent, although he ended up firing a lot of them because, they, they, pushed back. Often when necessary. Whereas now we're, not seeing that as much. We're seeing this focusy focus much more on loyalty at any cost, it would seem.
Céline Williams: Yeah. and I think that is [00:41:00] more common than it should be in organizations across the board, is that if you are loyal and you've been with me a long time, I'm gonna keep working with you, I'm gonna raise you up, I'm going to whatever. Versus, balancing out perspectives and finding people who are competent or, are experts in something that you are not an expert in to bring that, that into the fold.
So I think this is a very, I don't think we talk about this enough in general, is the idea of loyalty versus competence and ultimately how it damages. Not only leaders, but organization's ability to think critically and make good decisions.
Philippe Johnson: yeah. If you're so insecure that you can't accept different, points of view or dissent, then leadership's probably not for you.[00:42:00]
You gotta can't be that thin skinned, yeah.
Céline Williams: if only more people actually got that and did something with it. 'cause Yes. And sadly, we, there's, and that's where the narcissism
Philippe Johnson: comes in. It's, not, it's, not about you, it's about the organization and the organization's mission. And, again, when you put duty in principle, at the forefront of your decision making instead of self-interest, it, all boils down to that.
And that means taking care of your people obviously as well.
Céline Williams: Yep. Absolutely. I wanna thank you for taking the time to chat with me today. This is super interesting. I think the topic that you, that your book is about is incredibly important. there will be links in the show notes for people to check it out and to, check you out and see what you're up to [00:43:00] in the world.
but thank you for sharing all of this and the examples that you have, because that's really, it's important for people to know that it's not just a theoretical conversation, right? this is real and it's happening, and you have the examples. So thank you for, having this conversation and sharing them with me.
It's much appreciated.
Philippe Johnson: thank you so much for helping me.
Céline Williams: Absolutely. Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.