In honor of World Bee Day, Céline sat down with organizational coach and beekeeper Philip Atkinson to explore how studying a hive became his most powerful tool for conversations about leadership. From the danger of "busy as a bee" culture to what the waggle dance can teach us about organizational messaging, this episode is full of unexpected wisdom.
The most surprising leadership insights may not be found where you'd expect…
In this episode, Céline sits down with Philip Atkinson, an organizational coach and beekeeper who has spent his career helping leaders around the world become better humans with better skills.
Philip is also the author of Bee Wise: 12 Leadership Lessons from a Busy Beehive, a beautifully written book structured across the four seasons, blending the science of bees with the very human challenges of leading an organization.
Philip and Céline explore why leadership is still so often rooted in command-and-control thinking – a model built for industrial-era machines, not the living, breathing organizations of today.
They dig into what it really means to lead without having all the answers, why "busy" has become a dangerous badge of honor, and how slowing down to sense your environment (the way a beekeeper reads a hive before lifting the lid) can change the quality of every conversation and decision you make.
They also get into the often-broken world of feedback: why so many leaders give it wrong, why the simple question "is now a good time?" is a game-changer, and how the bees' famous waggle dance is actually a masterclass in clear, consistent, repeated communication inside a noisy system.
If you're navigating constant change, holding your team together, and trying to lead well without pretending you have all the answers, this conversation is for you. Philip's message is simple and grounding: everyone deserves to be led well, and being a good leader starts with being a good human.
Bee Wise is available wherever you purchase books, with all proceeds going to Bees for Development, a charity supporting families in developing countries through sustainable beekeeping businesses. Learn more at beewisebook.com.
Connect with Philip on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/philipatkinsonhivelogic.
Philip Atkinson: [00:00:00] And I sat there. Thinking about my bees thinking, oh my God, what an amazing metaphor. And it hadn't hit me until then. And as soon as, as soon as I saw this, I thought, oh my goodness, here's something. And I started using stories about the bees inside the organization to actually help with difficult conversations.
Judith: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
Céline Williams: My guest today is Philip Atkinson, an organizational coach, beekeeper, and the author of BE Wise's 12 [00:01:00] Leadership Lessons from a Busy Beehive. Welcome, Philip.
Philip Atkinson: Thank you, Celine. Nice to be here.
Céline Williams: I have many questions already just from the title of your book, which I'm sure is not surprising.
But before we get into that, I'm gonna ask the question that I always start with, which is the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. What Comes Up for You? Or What does it mean to you when you hear that phrase?
Philip Atkinson: First of all, I'm gonna say crisis is just a phase. We need to be good leaders at all phases.
And just because it's a crisis, we don't need to be different. We need to be good humans with good leadership skills in everything that we do. So that's my, that's my mantra and that's what I'd love to explore a little bit deeper today.
Céline Williams: Yeah. Um, let's, I'm definitely up for that. And I love the way you phrased good humans with good leadership skills because wouldn't the world be a different place if it was good humans with good leadership skills in all of those leadership [00:02:00] positions?
So I love that
Philip Atkinson: It sounds, it sounds a simple request, doesn't it?
Céline Williams: It does, and that's why it stands out to me because it's a very simple way of phrasing it, and yet. It's not, it's clearly, if you look at the world around us, it's clearly not easy. We've all worked with leaders who are not good people, good humans with good leadership skills.
Philip Atkinson: I think what's interesting already is leadership is not taught very well. We kind of inherit leadership from other leaders, you know, when we're growing up or different schools or different, you know, first jobs, second jobs, serious jobs, leadership actually needs a lot of thinking about and.
It also needs to kind of challenge old models. The world is changing, it's evolving quickly. And as leaders, we need to evolve quickly. And just one thing sparked by your question already about leadership in crisis is we can't pretend to be a leader.
Céline Williams: Mm.
Philip Atkinson: We can't pretend to be anything.
We actually, all we've got, which is beautiful, is [00:03:00] ourselves, and we work with organizations all around the world to help leaders be more themselves, but with more skill.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: Because you can't change who you are. Not really, not a lot, but you can acknowledge who you are. Including weaknesses and development areas, and then use all of that self, but with more skill, and then we can have some fun in improving quality of life for everybody.
Céline Williams: I have, there's like five different things I wanna ask. I'm gonna ask this question because I have thoughts on it, which I'm always curious and I never want to assume that my thoughts on something are the truth. So. Acknowledging that I have an assumption that I'm hopefully not gonna lean too much into, in the question from your experience working with leaders around the world in a variety of ways, what is it that holds people back from [00:04:00] being themselves, from leading in a way that's not inherited?
From where, you know, the leaders in their organization, the people around them, whatever it is, what is that? Where's that tension coming from?
Philip Atkinson: This is, this is, thank you Céline. This is a deep and interesting question already. I'm gonna pick up on one, one aspect first.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Philip Atkinson: And, and that is, I'm gonna go a little bit further back.
Céline Williams: Please.
Philip Atkinson: So organizations have evolved to deal with complexity basically. And the industrial revolution 150 years ago created big, great big machines of organizations and they controlled things. They controlled manufacturing, they controlled time, they controlled what individuals did, and we learned about control and command and control.
And actually in many organizations for 150 years until today. Leadership has been about command and [00:05:00] control, and that's what a lot of people have grown up with. And now the world has changed. You know, we are not great big machines making things in a mechanistic way. We are living organizations that need to evolve and breathe and move and respond like a, like a living organization rather than a machine.
And I don't think anyone. How clever they are can command and control everything. So, so actually being a leader is not about commanding and it's not about controlling. You actually need to hire really good people to bring their best skills to solve problems. One person can't do it, but we are stuck in the mental framework, a mental model of behavior.
And, and there's a tension because it's, things are evolving at the moment, but there is a tension where some leaders think. Now that I've been promoted to being the leader, I need to know all the answers. Mm-hmm. And I need to command and control and restrict and monitor and assess and [00:06:00] measure. And I don't think that's the way forward.
Céline Williams: I have said many times that. We need to, I don't know how we do this. I'm saying we global. We, universal, we, but we need to shift the mentality that a leader has all the answers. No hu no single person in any situation at any point in time has all the answers.
So why is there pressure on leaders to be the sole source of answers, decisions, whatever it is, reinforcing a system that. Does not work. Does
Philip Atkinson: It's fundamental. Well, you know, the world has become more complicated, so we can't control complexity. We need to embrace complexity. We need to be curious about complexity.
We need new ways of thinking to solve. Problems. So actually leadership is actually about a behavior and it's a way of thinking and a way of asking questions and a way of being curious and a way of being listening. And it's absolutely about [00:07:00] letting go of having to know the answers.
Céline Williams: Yeah. I wish we could instill that in more.
Humans as a default that you, we don't.
Philip Atkinson: I'm doing my best.
Céline Williams: I appreciate that.
Philip Atkinson: This has become my life's work all around the world is, you know, I fundamentally believe that everyone deserves to be led well, you know, and therefore, leaders have a responsibility to be good leaders, which means being a good human with skills.
That's become my life's work. I'm doing my best.
Céline Williams: Well, I appreciate that and please keep doing it because it really is, we need more of it. We need more space for leaders to have that space, quite frankly. To have that space, to be good humans and to lead in meaningful ways, you know?
Okay. Again, I have a thousand questions, but I want to get into [00:08:00] some of what's in your book, but I'm gonna start with a background of it because tell me about linking beekeeping with leadership.
Philip Atkinson: I'm gonna hold up a copy. First of all, just as a reference point, please. Bee Wise: Twelve Leadership Lessons from a Busy Beehive
There's, there's a little bit of a story. I've worked in big organizations worldwide and I, I love studying. I studied psychology and change and transformation and coaching, and that was my work. That was my work thing. At the weekend. I wanted to study something completely different from work, and I, I joined a bee club to study beekeeping.
It, it's a very hands-on practical thing and it's academic.
Céline Williams: I just have to say, I did not even know Bee Clubs existed, so already. I love everything about this. Please continue.
Philip Atkinson: It's lovely. Well, actually I live in, you know, I'm based in Switzerland and live in rural France and actually it's called the Syndicat [00:09:00] d'Apiculture so it's this, it's a French club in a little hut in a forest and great.
I was happy. It was, I had my work study and I had my home study. Nothing to do with each other. Now a beehive, of course, is a very complex organization where tens of thousands of individuals work towards a single beautiful goal. And one day I'm sitting outside my office.
And outside my office, I'm waiting to get the bus and the, the building is a four story building and there are four floors inside and I'm, and there's a small front door and it's a hot summer's day and people are coming and going outta a small door at the front, and they're carrying briefcases with.
With data and ideas and experience, and inside it's noisy and inside everyone's moving and they're busy and they're talking and you can't at first understand what they're doing. And the output, the outcome from the work was amazing. It happened to be a a, a medicine company making cancer treatments. You know, what an amazing product.
And I sat there. Thinking about my bees thinking, oh my [00:10:00] God, what an amazing metaphor. And it hadn't hit me until then. And as soon as, as soon as I saw this, I thought, oh my goodness, here's something. And I started using stories about the bees inside the organization to actually help with difficult conversations.
We'd talk about conflict, I'd talk about the bees first. We'd talk about decision making. I'd talk about the bees. We'd talk about, career planning and matrix management and leadership and decision making. And the beekeeping became a fascinating metaphor to open up better quality conversations. Mm. And that's how it all started.
Céline Williams: That is fascinating and I love when you, when we're able to tie things together in unexpected ways, right? And so you've written a book that is tying leadership and beekeeping together. And I by the way, be, your book is absolutely beautiful. And I see that and I [00:11:00] go, I, I don't know a ton about bees. I know they're important. I understand it's a complex hive. I don't know a ton about the day to day, how they work, et cetera, but I see those two together and I'm like, okay, I, I mean, I know enough to be like, that kind of makes sense even without all the details.
Philip Atkinson: Yep.
Céline Williams: And so the fact that you, you know when things tie together, when there are metaphors that you're like, yeah, that makes sense, obviously it's always fascinating to me when you're the person that brought them together because why was this not always this way? It's kind of the thing, right? Like, how did, how are we not always thinking this? So tell me a little bit, I, I'm very curious what some of the specific stories, links, ties between beekeeping and leadership that made this reality.
Philip Atkinson: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And the, the book is structured across [00:12:00] four seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter. And in each of those there are three chapters. So there are 12 topics. And I'm just gonna call out one first and then we can dive into others.
Céline Williams: Of course.
Philip Atkinson: And look, I'm not pretending we should all be like bees.
You know, the bees is, it's a metaphor. So I don't want us to be, you know, acting and behaving like bees. And the first lesson is actually something to learn, not from the bees. Great. That is, you know, and there's a phrase as busy as a bee now, bees work 24 7. So in the summer, the female worker bees, which I'm talking about primarily the female worker bees live for about 32 to 33 days.
They work nonstop. They don't sleep 24 7. They're working in a hive. They're out flying, they're busy making honey. They're busy building. They work nonstop, and then they die of exhaustion.
Céline Williams: Oh my God.
Philip Atkinson: And that's it, you know? Bang, wow. Now let's, let's just come to organizations. Now, I've, I have [00:13:00] a bit of a, a bit of fun with this.
I now work as an independent coach and we have a business and we go into clients and it's really fun to say to people at work, you know, how, how are you? And they go, I'm fine, thanks. I am. Busy. I'm busy flying, traveling, going to a conference. I'm busy with a budget planning, so it's always, I'm busy, something.
And it's really interesting to hear how busy is a badge of honor.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: My mantra is, no, no. Let's not be busy. Wouldn't it be great if someone said, I'm great, thanks. I've spent the morning trying to solve a customer problem that we've never really gotten deep into. Mm. Or, you know, how are you? I'm great, thanks.
I've taken the morning off to go and, you know, take my kid to the doctors or whatever, and I'm, I've been thinking about some of the big planning problems. I've been thinking about. What about new innovation or new products? You know, let's, we, we reward the wrong things.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: So, [00:14:00] so chapter one, don't be as busy as a be.
Stop and pause and think a little bit harder about the bigger problems and make the world a better place. That's the first thing. Don't, don't, don't be as busy as a me.
Céline Williams: Amen. Can, we can do you, if you don't have t-shirts with that on them, you need to have them fill it because that needs to be your merch.
Because TR and I say that truly because even inside of how, where this, the inspiration, where the stories of this book came from. For you is about not being as busy as it be. It's about having time in your personal life to do something different. Interesting, engaging, so it's not just busy for, because I'm sure we can all find things to work on to fill time and be busy.
Whereas this started for you, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what it sounds like it started for you from. I am interested in this other thing [00:15:00] that is, I'm, I, you know, clearly passionate about, learned a lot from that. Is filling my time, filling my cup up in a positive way? Not in a, oh no. I have another thing I have to do.
Checkbox, busy way. Yeah.
Philip Atkinson: Do you want another topic?
Céline Williams: I absolutely do.
Philip Atkinson: So I'm just picking at random from the 12 chapters. Yeah. I'm drawn as we're talking. I'm drawn to chapter seven, which is about sensing the system.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Philip Atkinson: Again, every chapter starts with about the bees or the beekeeper or the bees system as I'm a beekeeper on a lovely summer's day, beautiful meadow, there might be a apple orchard and, and flowers.
As I approach the beehive, and I might be taking the lid off to put my hand in to harvest honey. So I need to go and do a job, a task. I have a task to do as I approach the hive. I could take the lid off and put my hands in and start work, but what I encourage everyone to do and what I need to learn to do better as a beekeeper is to slow [00:16:00] down and pause first, just for a second, and use all of my sensors.
So if I listen to the beehive. If a beehive is, is happy, it makes a lovely bee flat noise. If a beehive is stressed now on a hot, on a beautiful summer's day with a blue sky, there might be a thunderstorm coming. You know, as there often is on a hot summer's day, and I can't, as a human, I can't see the thunderstorm, but the bees can sense it, the bee can sense the change in atmospheric pressure, and the bees are stressed.
And if I listen, if the bees are happy, it's a bee flat. If the bees are stressed, it's a higher octave and it's a higher note, and I can tell. Just by pausing and listening if the bees are stressed or not, if they're stressed, don't take the lid off.
Céline Williams: Right?
Philip Atkinson: But I could also smell if the bees are stressed or not, because when the bees are happier, they're making honey.
And when they're stressed, they stop making honey and they make props, which is a protein bee glue's, very, very bitter. And it, it's, it reinforces the hive. So I can actually smell if, if they're happy or not. [00:17:00] I can see if they're stressed or not, because if they're, if they're happy, they're working smoothly and there's a lovely fluid motion to what they're doing outside the hive, if they're stressed, it's a real stressed, staccato movement.
You know, they look stressed. Yeah. But I just, I just need to pay attention. Um, there we are. So we've got sound, we've got smell, we've got, noise. Use your senses now if they're stressed. Don't take the lid off, you know, come back later or, or tomorrow. Now you know, I'm playing with this, but at work, I'm not gonna say smell your meetings, but at work, spend a little bit more time noticing what is happening.
You know, if I'm gonna ask my boss for a pay rise. Pick your moment. Mm-hmm. You know, notice if your boss is stressed and don't take the lid off and ask your boss for a pay rise.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: But I'm, I'm also joking, but at a, at a, a major organizational transformation level, pay more attention to the [00:18:00] system.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: What are the reactions? What is happening? What is being triggered, what is being said? And more importantly, what is not being said? And really we encourage leaders to have a greater sense of, eq, emotional quotient or awareness or just sensing the system so you don't get stung.
I think that's good lessons for anybody.
Céline Williams: I think of, so there's two things that came to mind was you were saying that one of them is. I wish when people were giving feedback that they did more of that sensing of the system and sensing of the other party involved. Because I think often, sorry, go ahead.
You're nodding. So
Philip Atkinson: sorry. I'm just completely
Céline Williams: agreeing.
Philip Atkinson: Yeah.
Céline Williams: Okay.
Philip Atkinson: Yeah,
Céline Williams: because I have seen, and I'm sure you have as well, but I think a lot of times people step into feedback conversations. From their perspective, right? So they need to give, it's usually people [00:19:00] giving people feedback. That's often the impetus, but they need to say something to someone else and they need to say it.
And so they're gonna say it. And that is the focus from their perspective. And they're not. As focused on is the other person in the right head space to receive this? Have we set this up in such a way where they can receive it? Is, am I really saying this in a way that is about them and not about me sharing my opinion?
I could be on a soapbox the next four hours about that, but I think of feedback, conversations, and like what an opportunity to sense the system.
Philip Atkinson: I, I'll join you on your soapbox Céline. I completely agree. There's a, it's, there's a chapter about feedback. Feedback. How can, how can we have evolved for 150 years and still be so bad in, in, in corporate society of feedback?
Fundamentally, I mean, there's one basic question to ask First. Can I give you some feedback now?
Céline Williams: Thank you.
Philip Atkinson: [00:20:00] Because, or you know, shall we do it tomorrow or later? Let me just say, say I've done a, a board presentation about the budget for next year and I'm coming, say, say That's what I've delivered.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Philip Atkinson: And I'm just leaving the meeting and my boss says, can I give you some feedback?
The answer's probably no, not right now.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Philip Atkinson: No, not now. I've just come off presenting to the board. Yep. I'm not in a place to receive feedback right now. I'd love to receive feedback tomorrow or over a coffee or a bit later
Céline Williams: yes.
Philip Atkinson: But the question is, can I give you feedback now or is there a better time?
Céline Williams: Yep. Could not agree. It's, it seems so simple and yet it is so often overlooked. There is a leader that I've worked with. When I tell you the number of people who will, who refer to this leader when they're like, this is why they're so great, and it is because they ask that question. It is a game changer and people notice it.
I, it's wild to me that it's not [00:21:00] more commonly asked, and by the way that the people who are being asked that question don't feel empowered to say, not right now. That's also part of the problem.
Philip Atkinson: Yeah,
Céline Williams: because it's okay to say, actually, not right now. And it's also okay to say like if, when you get feedback, if it's something that is just, it's okay to say thank you for that.
I'm not, you know, I'm not working on, that's not in my like whatever version it, but it's okay to say thank you and that's not my highest priority.
And yet here we are in a place where that is not encouraged as much as it should be.
Philip Atkinson: Feedback is so complicated and it's such an, but when done well, it's so powerful when done badly, it's so terrible and it's often done badly.
Céline Williams: Yes,
Philip Atkinson: And I loved your very first comment about it, which is it's not about the person giving the feedback.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Philip Atkinson: It has to be for the development and the benefit of the person receiving it, and they have to receive it in the right condition to receive feedback for [00:22:00] it to be useful.
Céline Williams: I, the question, the, the checkpoint I have, anyone I've worked with unfortunately, who listens to this podcast will know this, is that the first thing I always have them check is.
Is this feedback, your opinion, that you just need to share, or is it actually to the benefit of the other person? And if it's to the benefit of the other of the other person, then because you want them to do well and you want them to, then you need to think before you have any conversation about what it is you want to say and the impact you want it to have.
And if it's your opinion, don't share it. It's just, I would've done this better. That's not feedback.
Philip Atkinson: I hear you. Yes, yes, yes.
Céline Williams: I was gonna go into, the, like the, a bigger system conversation, but because this feedback you said there is something in the book about feedback. I am curious how feedback and bees are linked specifically, rather than me going down another rabbit hole of the system.
Philip Atkinson: Well, here it goes. So actually, you know, a beehive is a living organic [00:23:00] system. So it moves, it evolves, it changes. Let me link that to communication 'cause that's actually part of feedback. And it's about messages. It's about messages being received, and understood and acted upon.
Céline Williams: Absolutely.
Philip Atkinson: Have you heard about a thing called a waggle dance?
Céline Williams: So
Philip Atkinson: does that ring a bell?
Céline Williams: Despite my lack of knowledge of bees, I have actually, I don't know anything about it, but I have heard the term.
Philip Atkinson: Okay. Well I'm just gonna go a little bit deeper
Céline Williams: please. Um.
Philip Atkinson: Let's go back, let's go back to a beautiful spring day and let's think about an apple tree in full blossom.
So that could be half a million white flowers all coming outta the same week, before Easter. When WBE finds a source of pollen like that, it's the gold mine and one bee finds it and then comes back to tell the rest of the hive. That's one bee telling 55,000 other bees. And first of [00:24:00] all, the bee comes back covered in pollen.
So there's a visual cue.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Philip Atkinson: And then the bee does a waggle dance. And this was, uh, the guy that invented this, uh, discovered it won a Nobel Prize. And the bees dance in the figure of eight and the central axis of the figure of eight tells the other bees how many degrees away from the sun it is. So that gives you the direction.
Oh, and then the en the energy that the bees put in, how vigorous they dance. This figure of eight tells the bees how far away it is and how good the source of pollen. So in terms of, you know, the, the bee comes back and tells that message. Now like feedback or good communication, it's completely worthless unless it's understood and acted upon anyway.
There are bees at the front door noticing this, and the bees go, I'm gonna go and look. So they go for a second opinion. So a few, not many, a few more bees go. They follow the direction to the sun. The waggle dance, they follow How far. They find the pollen and they [00:25:00] come back covered in pollen and they do the dance and they repeat it and it's a whole feedback mechanism.
And by then there's a few more bees and a few more. And bearing in mind there are lots of other decisions taking place 'cause there's lots of other bees going to other sources of pollen. But if this is a powerful one, the message needs to be consistent and repeated and understood. And then more bees go and come back and tell the same message, and eventually an entire beehive all go to the same source of pollen.
They've had 10 million years to get this right. So bees have been on earth a lot longer than our clumsy humans.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: And the over 10 million years, the bees know if they all pollinate one tree, it's more efficient and then they all pollinate a second tree and then they all pollinate a third tree. It's really fascinating how, but it's good communication.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: And what's beautiful now, if you start to think about communication inside an [00:26:00] organization, the bees doing this waggle dance. It doesn't happen in daylight at the front of the hive. It happens in darkness in the center of the hive. Nobel prize guy. You know, it wasn't, I don't think it was well enough, appreciated all of this communication that happens in the noise in the dark, and that's a bit like being at work, you know?
Mm-hmm. We might receive hundreds of emails just because we've received one email from the CEO about a new transformation. It doesn't mean we've all understood it. It doesn't mean we can retell the story. It doesn't mean we support it. It doesn't mean we can even remember receiving the bloody email.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: So communication inside an organization as part of transformation or change or anything, it needs to be clear. It needs to be consistent, it needs to be repeatable, and it needs to happen in the context of all of the other noise that's going on. It's super fascinating. It really is the bees. The bees are good at this stuff.
And there's a lot that we [00:27:00] can be more thoughtful about, about our communication inside a big organization with lots of people all busy doing other stuff.
Céline Williams: Well, and did I hear you correctly that there are 55,000 bees? Is that like, was that an exaggerated number?
Philip Atkinson: No, no. The be the bee population changes over the course of the summer.
At the height of the summer when they're busy there, there's 50, 60, 70,000 bees in one hive.
Céline Williams: I thought, I was like, I must have misheard that. I did not. So I, the reason that that stuck in my mind is because that is. A lot of bees to communicate this way more than most organizations are trying to communicate to people like significantly more, and they [00:28:00] manage to do it inside of all of that busyness.
So why can't we?
Philip Atkinson: We need to be clear and consistent and the message needs to be received. As well as, it's not just sending a message, it's is the message received, which comes back to sensing the system and comes back to, is the organization in a point in time when it's receptive to these messages?
Céline Williams: Yeah. Okay. So I actually have a question about that, and I'm gonna start with, I'm gonna give the context of why I'm asking and then ask it about bees. But we, you know, I'm not saying we have to only stick to bees. So the. There's often not, in my experience and. Even in small organizations, definitely in larger organizations, that check of is, the message received is often overlooked, right?
It is. I have told you something. You have been told something, [00:29:00] therefore the assumption is that you received it and it is understood. And this happens in meetings. We're setting up a project, we're talking about it. And we're assuming that we have the same expectations and we're going about the same thing.
And oftentimes when we come back together, in fact, even if there's a handful of people in the room, we have all understood different things. So context from this is kind of my experience. I want to acknowledge that in asking the question of clearly the bees have figured out how to confirm that the message has been received and not just told repeatedly or told once.
So whether it's from bees or your experience, but I'm curious, one, how can we do this better? Do you have any lessons from bees, lessons from your own experience, and how can people stop [00:30:00] just assuming that the message is received?
Philip Atkinson: I'm gonna take this back to the beginning where we talked about, you know, being good humans with good skill, you know, great.
Let's not pretend we're, let's, let's pretend we're not a CEO robot just sending stuff. So you need to be receptive and listen and, and you know, as we've talked already about sensing the system and listening and noticing and appreciating what is happening in the organization. And that means probably leaving the top office and going to talk to people in the you know, elsewhere in the organization as to what is happening, what is being received. But I'm actually gonna call out a bigger thing that I think is important,
Céline Williams: please,
Philip Atkinson: And it's, it's to do with cycles. And it's taken me, it's taken me all my career to realize this, and it's the most simple thing.
Everything in life has a beginning and a middle, and an end, a meeting. Has a beginning, a middle end, a feedback comment, has a beginning, a middle end, a career, a beginning, a middle [00:31:00] end, a new project, a new initiative, a new transformation. It has a beginning, it has a middle, and it has an end. And let's just focus on a meeting.
First of all, you know, how many meetings do we have a day and a week, and how much time do spend in meetings? And my, my plea is to help people have a better start to a meeting and then a better middle. Importantly, a better close. And the starter meeting might be when you set up what we're trying to achieve and what we're doing, and take time to make sure everyone is on the same page.
Take time to make sure that everyone thinks they're in the same meeting. Take time to make sure who is in the meeting and what they're doing there. And do they have to be there and maybe they don't have to be there and, but actually check in. So it's, it's the, it's a very human conscious skill of checking in.
To set up the right environment at the beginning of the meeting.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: The middle bits when you do the work, I'm not gonna focus on that now, but that's, that's what you're good at. [00:32:00] It's doing the stuff of the meeting. What people are really, really bad at is closing a meeting. Well, and it might only take a couple of minutes or, or take some time or take five minutes, but what have we decided?
What are we gonna act on? What have we learned about ourselves? What else needs to be said? And let's close and there we are. You know, it might take a few minutes, but what I see everywhere, meetings, conversations, initiatives, projects, is we're very good at. Sometimes we're good at starting stuff, then we jump or we jump straight into the middle stuff and things don't close very well.
And by the end of the day. Poor little head has got so many open topics. It's like having a screensaver with too many apps open. Things don't close.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: And if we paid more attention to that cycle, and I'm doing it with my voice now, slowing [00:33:00] down, if we paid more attention to the rhythm and the natural cycle of life and slowed things down and finished things well, people could leave that meeting as a success and then walk.
Figuratively or in real life, walk calmly to the next meeting and start the next meeting.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Philip Atkinson: Really important and the bees do that very well.
Céline Williams: I think it's a really good and important call out because my experience specifically has been that we don't spend a lot of time, on the ending of meetings.
The wrap up confirming people have the same understanding, confirming that, you know, whatever the next steps, takeaways, whatever it is, there's not a lot of time spent on that and it is often. You know, a version of like, okay, well that's time we're done here. See you later, and people kind of move on, which is not a good end to a meeting at all.
I have no [00:34:00] doubt that there are at least eight or nine other lessons in your book that we could get into. But I wanna be mindful and respectful of your time. So I'm gonna ask the question. Is there anything that we didn't get to or something from your book that you really wanna share before we wrap up?
Or potentially something that you shared that you wanna emphasize or add on to? Before we get to the end of this?
Philip Atkinson: No. I mean, Celine, thank you for your interest. It's a, it's a fun topic. You know, and actually the metaphor, you know, just learning about the bees is interesting and, but it's a fun, a fun way of opening up.
Conversations the, and I'm just gonna say two things about the book. First of all, each chapter was written, and then actually I thought, hang on, I've just written a chapter. Why? Why have I written a chapter by myself? 'cause I've never worked by myself. It's part of a collaboration with clients or with colleagues.
So each chapter I sent to an expert in the field and [00:35:00] asked for their thoughts, and the book has therefore become a dialogue. Mm, so, so there's a chapter all about teamwork, and I sent the chapter to Professor John Le Rejoice who said, Philip, thank you. This is thought provoking. Here's my thoughts as well.
So the book is a dialogue. So at the end, it's actually 13 people. It's myself and 12 experts in the, in the field. And that just makes it fun. And the second thing is all of the proceeds from the book go to a charity. And the charity is called Bees for Development. And actually they support families in developing countries to have bee businesses, pollen and honey and wax and candles, you know, to make money to pay for their children's education, you know, so the book is, is, is just a joy.
It's selling really well on Amazon. There's a website, we'll give you a link to beewisebook.com. But. It's a collaborative effort. It's a fun project. The book is great, and all the, all of the money, goes straight to the charity. [00:36:00] So it's, it's, it's something that I'm really enjoying doing. And thank you for your interest.
Céline Williams: Oh my gosh. Thank you for coming and sharing some of this with, with me and with our audience. Bees are fascinating, clearly is my takeaway. Bees are fascinating. I wanna learn more about bees in general. We will absolutely have a link to your website, to the books website, beewisebook.com will be in the show notes.
But I just wanna say I. I love that the proceeds from this book are giving back to the world in such a meaningful way. I think that is incredibly honorable. And look at this wonderful, good human. Doing good things and actually walking the walk and not just talking the talk. Philip, that is something that I wish there were more examples of in the world.
So thank you for sharing some of your story and sharing your insight and for being a good human.
Philip Atkinson: Thank you, Celine. Likewise. And, you know, let's, let's spread the word and it's one thought [00:37:00] provoking conversation at a time, isn't it?
Céline Williams: Absolutely.
Judith: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage and clarity.