What do you do when experiencing a toxic workplace culture or navigating a workplace conflict where the power dynamics are out of whack? How do you set and enforce effective boundaries at work? Listen in as we discuss solutions with Conflict Mediator, Communication Coach, and Civil Rights Attorney Meredith Holley.
“If people are acting like children in your environment, it’s okay to be the teacher.”
Setting and enforcing boundaries at work “is always about creating safety for yourself… it’s not about them.”
In this episode, Workplace Conflict Mediator, Communication Coach, and Civil Rights Attorney Meredith Holley shares her personal experience with landing her dream job–only to end up being sexually harassed by her boss.
She shares how that experience became one of the most transformative experiences of her life, what she learned about setting and enforcing effective boundaries (even when there’s an extreme power differential), and some solutions-based tips to help anyone who would like to develop more solid strategies for themselves.
This conversation is so relevant to the work and personal situations many of us are navigating today.
When you listen to this episode, you will walk away with a greater sense of personal power, knowing how to protect yourself and your peace. That’s worth 40 minutes, no?
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Meredith Holley is a workplace conflict mediator, communication coach, civil rights attorney, and co-host of the Empowered Communication Podcast. Meredith helps mission-driven workplaces resolve toxic workplace conflict.
To learn more about Meredith and her work, visit https://erisresolution.com.
To listen to the Empowered Communication Podcast, search for it on your platform of choice or head to https://www.erisresolution.com/podcast.
You can also connect with her on social…
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meredith-holley-1716b9a8
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/meredith.holley
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/erisresolution
Céline Williams: I'm Céline Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times.
My guest today is Meredith Holley, a workplace conflict mediator, communication coach, attorney, and co host of the Empowered Communication Podcast. Welcome Meredith.
Meredith Holley: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
Céline Williams: It is my pleasure to have you. I love all of the things that you do in that intro. But before we get into them, and I of course have questions, I'm going to ask the question I always start with, which is the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis.
When you hear that, what comes up for you or what does that mean for you?
Meredith Holley: So, [00:01:00] uh, sort of as a existential answer, I think we always either learn through study or learn through crisis. Like, I think those are the two ways we have growth. And I think if we don't learn through study, the universe kind of steps in and says, Here's the crisis, it's gonna give you the opportunity for that growth.
As a personal answer, my background and the reason that I do my work is that I um, I got a dream job out of law school. I was working at a civil rights organization. I was litigating sexual harassment lawsuits, which was kind of the dream, you know, I didn't ever even think that would be possible for me when I first went into law school, but I was like, oh, I guess, I guess I would want to change gender dynamics and make things more fair in the workplace for women if it was my dream. So I got this job. I was litigating sexual harassment cases and my boss was sexually harassing me at the same time. And so for me as a personal [00:02:00] crisis, that was sort of this surprisingly humiliating experience where I was sort of like, I'm supposed to be the person who knows how to solve this problem.
And all I know how to do is file a lawsuit related to it. I don't actually know how to get somebody who has that much power over me to stop touching me every day. Like I just, I don't know how to do it. It was, Probably in the top, at least three most transformational experiences of my life, because I wasn't willing to give up my career just because this person was inappropriate, like that seemed so unfair to me that I was like, there has to be another solution.
And I went to other lawyers. I said, sort of, I told them what was going on. They were like, oh, that sounds really bad. Like, you know, you could quit and file a lawsuit. But I also knew in the U. S., at least where I am, if you quit, you lose most of your rights. And it's even more difficult to file a lawsuit [00:03:00] based on sexual harassment.
So I was like, maybe I could, but could I really? Right. Um, like, that's not even a real solution for me. And then, I'm out of a career like that has a lifelong impact for me.
Céline Williams: You end up being punished for someone else's behavior in a like, you know, real career, financial, future prospects way.
Meredith Holley: Exactly, exactly.
So for me, I just kept sort of telling people what was going on, including other supervisors in the workplace and kept sort of asking for solutions, looking for solutions, reading whatever I could. And it was about a year, maybe a year and a half until I found solutions that worked for me. But when I did.
It totally changed my power dynamic in the workplace. It changed how I saw power. It changed how I encountered inappropriate behavior. It really changed everything for me in a [00:04:00] way that, like, the year that I learned new strategies around it, I doubled my bonus and got a 12 percent raise. Like, the partners in the firm started talking to me about being a managing partner the year after.
You know, it really changed everything for me and how I encountered my career.
Céline Williams: So I would, can you say more about that. When you talk...and what I mean is not the experience of the harassment, to be clear. That's not, but when you talk, I just realized, as I said that I'm like, that could be misinterpreted. But when, when you say like the strategies that you learned, and, um, especially within power dynamics, because I think power dynamics, it doesn't make a difference who we are, we have power dynamics at work. Whether it's at work, I mean, like in play, right? Whether it's at work, whether it's at home, whether it's in the community, whether it's [00:05:00] family, there are power dynamics. And so I'm curious to hear more about your experience and what you learned about power dynamics when you were talking about that. And then when you talk about strategies, um, what did that look like for you? Like, whether it's how you learned them or what they were, but I think there are a lot of people who, even if it's not the same experience that you were going through, and I'm really sorry you went through that experience, they are feeling the impact of power dynamics in some way where they feel voiceless or like they don't know what to do.
And so I, I think hearing that is really helpful.
Meredith Holley: I mean, I will say it was a process. So I don't want to be overly simplistic. It obviously, it took me over a year to even find things that led to help. So I don't, I don't want to sort of be reductionist about it. But I'll say [00:06:00] sort of some of the major shifts that I made.
I mean, basically what I learned how to do was to manage my thinking and to enforce my boundaries. Those were the two. things that I learned how to do that I didn't even realize I didn't know how to do. Um, I thought maybe I over, I was an overanalyze or overthinker, but what it turned out was I actually have a really smart brained analysis machine that needs direction.
And I needed to learn how to give my brain direction of where to put all that thinking energy instead of turning it against myself. Um, so, so in terms of, what shifted for me to give me permission and direction to do that. Uh, I, I honestly realized, and this is true for a lot of people, that the main thing that was holding me back from enforcing my boundaries, which I knew how to do anyway, was that I was afraid to be fired.
And so I was, walking myself into a [00:07:00] situation where I was potentially going to quit because I was afraid to be fired for enforcing my boundaries when actually what the law expects people to do in harassment situations is to enforce their boundaries. And then if you get fired, you have a lawsuit is the concept behind it.
If you get fired for enforcing your boundaries, that's when, um, the law is more willing to step in. Not always. It's obviously like a balance, um, hashtag not legal advice, but, um,
Céline Williams: no legal advice on this podcast, right?
Yeah.
Meredith Holley: But, um, but for me, I was like, that's so interesting that I'm so trained to make myself small and withdraw myself from a situation versus letting someone fully act out their discrimination.
Like, I'm basically protecting my boss from going to the full length of his [00:08:00] discriminatory bias by withdrawing myself, which I don't want to do. I would rather there be more people in the workplace who enforce their boundaries and are respectful and make people like my old boss uncomfortable because of it.
That's what I stand for, then withdraw myself and let him take up that space, right? That was a major shift for me, where I actually said to myself during the day, am I willing to be fired for protecting myself? Yes. Am I willing to be fired because I'm creating safety around myself? I'm willing to be fired for that.
That's important to me. It's important. And one of the reasons that for me, it was leading in crisis is this was one of the first jobs where I had a major supervisory role over other people. I was the lawyer and there were assistants who were also impacted by this environment who had way less power than me.
So when I thought of [00:09:00] myself as someone having no power, I was also disadvantaging them, right? Because I wasn't willing to take action that would make them safer as a leader. Yeah. The other major shift that I made was seeing myself as a full adult with full power in my space. So I had sort of this narrative that I was the kid because I was new.
Like I'm just a kid here. The grown ups make the decisions, right? And then I had to say to myself, that's actually not correct. Even though I am younger than some of these people, even though I am more experienced than some of these people, in some ways that gives me more knowledge of how to solve these problems because I see it better and I'm not used to it yet.
Céline Williams: Yeah, that's a, that perspective shift is huge. Yeah. Um, so thank you for sharing that and it's, you know, when you were talking about enforcing your boundaries, first of all, [00:10:00] everyone should have a question that is similar to your question of, am I willing, whatever their version of it is in their situation, am I willing to get fired to enforce my boundaries?
Am I willing to, whatever the thing is, to enforce my boundaries? I think everyone should ask themselves that question, have a version of that question in their back pocket, because I think people don't ask themselves that question or don't even think about that because that involves conflict. And we're so averse to even thinking about conflict.
If, if I enforce my boundaries in any way, am I willing to get fired? Am I willing to deal with someone yelling at me? Am I willing to deal with being shamed? Whatever the thing is that you think is going to happen. The reason that they're not asking that question. my opinion is that they don't want to even think about the potential conflict.
Meredith Holley: And also, I think [00:11:00] that's 100 percent true. I think it can be even more extreme if you have any kind of marginalized characteristic. For example, you're a woman, you're a black woman, you're a black woman with a disability, you're a black trans woman with a disability. Like if you have any of these characteristics where we've been taught, if other people are uncomfortable about our behavior, we could experience violence like women are often raised in family or school environments where a man being uncomfortable quickly escalates to a physically dangerous situation. So there's a reason like a good survival level reason that we say, okay, I'd rather compromise my boundaries on this than make a man uncomfortable. It makes sense why we do that. And that's why you, to me, it was helpful to have the question available. Like, maybe I'm not willing to have my boss be [00:12:00] uncomfortable to enforce my boundaries. And at least in that situation, I know I'm making a decision to compromise my boundaries, right?
And I know why, and I like my reason why. Often, more often, I see that we've been so pre programmed to be afraid that things will escalate to violence, that, when it actually won't. Really what's gonna happen is we're gonna be in the presence of a sorry to be gendered about this, but a man, a white man having a tantrum, like that's the more likely scenario.
And then we need to do all the really hard work to unravel our own. Inner like complexes, our own inner habits around that not being okay. Cause really it is okay for someone to have a tantrum in your presence. And like, one of the things that shifted for me is I was thinking about areas in my life. I had one of my bosses said to me, Oh, I wish this [00:13:00] was your other colleague because who was touching you all the time.
When I, like one of the times that I reported, he said, I wish it was this other guy. Cause if it was him, I just go tell him to knock it off. And I said, If it was him, I would just tell him to knock it off. That's the whole point. I'm not a wilting flower. Like if it was this guy, who's my peer, I would probably hit him and be like, keep your hands to yourself.
But because it was somebody who had so much power over me. I was holding myself back from doing it. Like I knew what I could do, but I wasn't willing to do it. Right. But then I started thinking about where were areas in my life where I just automatically did that. And one area was after college, I did Peace Corps in Ukraine.
And so I was teaching like 40 5th grade Ukrainians how to speak English. And it was, Pretty chaotic, but I had also
Céline Williams: that's a lot of fifth graders to be fair
Meredith Holley: A lot of fifth graders who [00:14:00] speak Russian, not English. Yeah, but Ukrainian teachers were very at that time, I don't know how they are now, but they were quite assertive with the children and so what you said was like what you were sort of trying to do is just yell at the children be quiet and then take them to the principal's office if they weren't. And so I had sort of developed but the kids wouldn't respond because all the teachers did that they wouldn't respond unless you really like in Russian said like really like hardcore and then There was one time where I'd been there long enough that I literally grabbed a kid by his jacket and dragged him to the principal's office because he was like, kind of creating an unsafe situation.
And I just sat him on the chair and I was like, you, in Russian, like, you stay here until someone comes to get you. And I was like, no joke. I like had no qualms about it until [00:15:00] later. I was like, I don't think I want to be that person. Sure. But I wasn't afraid to do it. Yeah. And then I was like, okay, I'm in this environment where this man's acting like an eight year old, like he does need somebody who's like, absolutely not stop your behavior.
There's nothing. If people are acting like children in your environment, it's okay to be the teacher.
Céline Williams: That's...that should be a quote and everyone should really have a t shirt that says that because it's true and you know, it is a, it's a very, it's important to remember that because the reality is that when we don't, and by the way, I am not saying this saying this is any single person's responsibility in what I'm about to say.
Absolutely right. So this is, it's not about blame. And until someone does enforce a boundary with that person until someone does say no, you can't do that. [00:16:00] That person will continue to do that because there's no consequences. So they, like an eight year old, they think, well, this person's fine with it. It doesn't, if they're a little uncomfortable or whatever, right?
It doesn't matter. It's normal. It's normal there.
And
Meredith Holley: and I do think that there's a difference between truly predatory people and people who have unresolved trauma raised in patriarchy and white supremacy and people who have like did something accidental, right? Like, I think that there are, there's a spectrum of experiences, but even with somebody who is predatory. The focus of enforcing boundaries to me is always about creating safety for yourself and rewarding yourself for having created safety. It's not about them. Like, however, sometimes an easy way to do it is to say, knock it off. That was weird.
Céline Williams: Yep. Yes. I, I [00:17:00] agree. And I have, so I want to talk a little bit more about boundaries.
Um, because I think there's a lot of. Confusion around what that what that really is. And to what you just said, I think a lot of people can, you know, they enforce their boundaries by saying, YOU have to do this. Yeah, that's my boundary.
Meredith Holley: You have to enforce my boundary for me, right? We outsource it. Yeah, right.
Céline Williams: So I'd love to hear, you know, how, well, I mean, I would just add, like, how would you explain boundaries and the idea of creating and enforcing them to someone? Because I imagine also, because you do conflict mediation, and it's workplace specific, that that's, I imagine that's a conversation you are having Multiple times in your in the work that you're doing.
Meredith Holley: Yeah. So I think boundaries are just a one pillar [00:18:00] of how we create an empowered workplace resolve conflict in the workplace boundaries. I think the classic definition of boundaries is it's where I end and you begin, right? Boundaries are like the border. As a lawyer, I think about it as like a property border.
Um, and so in order to have a boundary violation, someone has to come through that property. The misunderstanding that people have and and I think in some ways, this can be useful as a way to think about it. In other ways, I think it goes astray. But sometimes people think of boundaries as the environment that I enforce in my space.
And I think that is partly true and partly it It can sort of create an impression that you need to control other people's behavior and that other people have to change their behavior in order for your boundaries to be enforced. That's where I think it gets a little fuzzy, but I, I tend to think of [00:19:00] a boundary violation as just anything where somebody comes into my space, then we enforce it by doing something that's safe for us and then rewarding ourselves for doing the safe thing for us, which sometimes doesn't even involve the other person. I had a situation where somebody was, um, uh, living with me, like, staying with me, dealing with a abusive partner to get away from the partner.
And I was talking to my coach about it and I was like, Do you think I need to, like, write a list of, like, boundaries that I have so that she knows he's not allowed to come to the apartment? And she was like, I think she probably knows that, right? Like, sometimes you don't have to communicate a boundary.
Sometimes you can just, if it gets violated, say, Oh, that's the last time that happens, and we're done with this. Like, Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think it's always, I, I think, um, I think the other way that people talk about boundaries is [00:20:00] expectations for yourself. So they like make rules for themselves about how they need to act in their space.
And to me that's different also than a boundary because it's not about what comes in. Or what we enforce about keeping out of the boundary.
Céline Williams: So, I, uh, I love that. I'm gonna, I wanna, uh, maybe ask a clarifying question inside of that? Because I think sometimes, um, the boundaries that people create are, and I'm all for keeping ourselves safe.
Right? Like, knowing what makes me feel safe, knowing what that is. And, I think sometimes we, people create boundaries and they communicate them in such a way where it's like, um, I, I, I'm trying to think of an easy example of it, [00:21:00] but I, you know, I'm not, uh, I want people to speak respectfully to me or whatever the, like, my boundary is people speaking respectfully to me, but I can't control how people speak to me.
Right. I can, I can have a boundary around what I'm willing to accept from people or whatever, but when people phrase them certain ways or they think about them in that way, then how they express them to other people is like they're, they've done something wrong. When they may not have realized it. Does that make sense?
Like, I think
Meredith Holley: it does. So I think what you're talking about is it's an interest, like the, the way I was sort of trained on this is the concept of boundaries versus having an instruction manual for how other people behave, right? That's kind of the contrast. However, in workplaces, it's kind of interesting because it can get a little overlapping, right?
We do actually have manuals [00:22:00] for how people are allowed to behave in workplaces. And sometimes I do think it can be useful to say, oh, in my environment. Uh, I want to enforce that people speak respectfully, right? Yeah. The thing that you have to do, though, is not become helpless as people speak disrespectfully, right?
And not have to necessarily remove yourself from the environment. So for example, I developed personal policies for myself about how I respond when people in my environment say racist things. So like, I'm a white person. I have privilege around race. I think it's really, like to me, it's personally important that people with privilege take action in their environments, even if it's, a totally white environment, for example, a totally male environment, I think it really has impact when people with privilege enforce standards in those [00:23:00] environments, enforce boundaries in those environments.
Agreed. So the thing that I do when someone says something that I think is racist is I just say, oh, uh oh, is that racist? And it usually leads to a conversation about whether it's racist and whether that person wants to be racist or not. And to me, that makes a difference. I don't have to say, You're being a racist!
And I will never talk to you again! Because often, honestly, it's like an attorney who's on the other side of a case from me who's doing it. So I'm already not working with that person. We're already adversarial. But I just label it. People get very uncomfortable when you label their discriminatory behavior, and then they have their own experience around it.
But to me, labeling it works for saying, in my environment, we're transparent about when things are biased, right? Yeah. I think if you're talking about disrespect, I think a similar thing can happen, and I actually think it is useful to develop more and more [00:24:00] sensitive boundaries because it boundaries are kind of, um, a signal of where we want to go based on what we don't want to have, right?
Like, whenever there's something we don't want to have, it's always sort of a guidepost towards what we do want to have. And if we're more sensitive around it, we can say, Oh, I really want to lean towards respectful environments that are really supportive, like that's important to me, but I think you can do a similar thing and say, Oh, ew, what?
Oh, that's a weird thing to say. Like, there's just ways that we normally, we can normalize saying, Oh, I don't like that. Uh oh. I don't like it. Yeah. What are you doing?
Céline Williams: Well, and to your, to your point, what I hear is that, um, those boundaries give us a sense of values alignment or not, right? Like is, is this aligned with my values in some way, shape or form?
And I think what you said about naming it and calling it out without [00:25:00] making it the other person's problem immediately because I think that's where a lot of, I see that happen a lot where people, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the boundary they set for themselves, but how they express it is like you should have known that this thing that you may have, and racism, that's potentially different, not even potentially different.
I think that's a different, but where someone has said something unknowingly without, you know, they may have no one has ever told them this is a problem before, whatever the case may be, where I think
Meredith Holley: it's like, I think what you're talking about is jokes and curses is how I put it in a category. I love that.
Jokes and curses, to me, is a category of, like, workplace stuff that comes up where people are like, Oh, everybody's a snowflake, you can't joke anymore, you can't curse anymore, whatever, like, however. And I just think jokes and curses are, like, a category where, was your joke funny? Was your curse, did your curse, like, [00:26:00] help the workplace?
Like, are you going to change the, and then it gives people the opportunity to discuss. Is this person going to change their behavior? Are they going to keep making stupid jokes? Yep. That aren't funny. Is this person going to continue to curse? And how do you want to navigate your jokes and curses category of things?
Without, um, everybody needing to withdraw themselves from the situation, I guess. And to me, I do, I have talked to people where like cursing in the workplace is a boundary violation to them. Yes. You'll want to navigate yourself, expecting people to violate that boundary and have a strategy for what feels good to you, knowing that that may be violated.
Honestly, like with racist, racist jokes, racist comments, like those happen often also, and we have to figure out ways to enforce our boundaries around it that help us thrive, that don't give [00:27:00] that Uh, racism experience all of our energy and all of our power.
Céline Williams: Yes, absolutely. I could not agree with that more.
And I do, I love the unsurprisingly as a coach, I love the, like, just name it for what it is. Like, you know, that like, oops, is that right? I don't know that you said oops in my brain. It was oops. Is that racist? But like naming it, whatever it is, is that. That seemed a little sexist, like naming it, I think is really powerful, especially when you do it in that way where you're naming the thing, you're not saying, are you a racist?
Why are you being racist?
Meredith Holley: Like, oh, I assume you're intending not to, and you just had a little misstep there. Uh oh.
Céline Williams: Yeah, and that, you know, you're, it's assuming positive intent, which I think is very powerful, but naming it so that it is uncomfortable. I don't think, I don't think that is a bad thing. I was listening to.
Um, a podcast. So I was listening to a podcast and it was actually Armchair Expert and it was, [00:28:00] um, oh gosh, I cannot remember his name right now. Uh, Tyler Perry, who was the guest. Okay. And there's the reason I'm sharing this is that Dax Shepard was saying something and he said, you know, those gals, blah, blah, blah, whatever it was.
And Tyler Perry, just said. Um, I'm going to rephrase that to women and without like just a comment and Dax was like, Oh, wait, is gals a problem and it was like, you know, a couple of minute conversation about gals being problematic and Tyler Perry sharing. And in the moment, Dax being like, I didn't know that. Like, that's good to know.
Even in something like that, Tyler Perry was like, this is not okay with me.
Meredith Holley: I'm just going to shift it to the language that feels good to me.
Céline Williams: Yeah, exactly. And so I offer that because in what you were saying, it's a, it's immediately. I was like, I was listening to this recently live, this thing happening where I was like, what a great way to change the experience and shift it.[00:29:00]
Meredith Holley: And have that conversation too, because it was a conversation, there was learning that happened. The other thing that I think is important about this is like, we all do have to make decisions for ourselves about the environments we want to be in. Like sometimes there is somebody who has very unfunny, very persistent, sexist, racist jokes.
And sometimes you just don't want to be around that person anymore. And part of this is permission to do that, like to create safety for yourself. If that, like to me, my message to my past me is it would have been okay if you had left the job, like that is an okay thing to do. Also, it also was okay that I did all this learning.
It was great for me that I did all this learning, but it is not our obligation to change the people in our environment. necessarily Especially when we're the ones that are impacted. But there's opportunity to
Céline Williams: Absolutely, and I think this is why I loved what you said about like, you had that question in your [00:30:00] pocket, right?
Like, am I willing to be fired for this? Because the, that question, whatever the version of it is, is really important because if to what you said earlier, if there's a real threat of violence. Yeah. Yeah. I am willing to be fired for that's a no brainer. Yeah. But until you ask that question and you actually think about it.
We make lots of assumptions inside of not saying anything or not knowing what to do or, you know, whatever the case may be.
Meredith Holley: It didn't really happen. I must have like gaslighting ourselves. I misunderstood. That didn't really happen. And that's why I do it as a question because sometimes I did mishear somebody.
Céline Williams: Of course.
Meredith Holley: But like, I'll say, uh oh, is that racist? Like, uh oh, is that sexist? What did you say? Like, just because I don't know yet. Maybe I misheard. But it also soothes that side of me that's like, You misheard. Don't say anything. You misheard. You're wrong about it. The other thing that I always remind [00:31:00] people and that I did for myself was I said, I'm allowed to call 9 1 1 if I need to, and for people where 9 1 1 is dangerous, allowed to call safety people, allowed to call people who will come into the environment, help me leave, help me get to safety.
I'm allowed to leave any room that I'm in, like, and that is just, like, I had to walk through the law on that for myself. Like, if I walk out, is that a reason to fire me? And like, there's literally law that you are not a prisoner in your workplace, right? Like, you're paid to do work, but you're not trapped you're allowed to leave places and then the third was what we are talking like, what do I need to be safe and to feel good right now?
Céline Williams: Yeah, um, I, I really appreciate you sharing that the personal story and kind of diving into this because I think it's. It's, um, [00:32:00] it's not talked about enough with any depth, right, like I think we often talk about having bad experiences or people will talk about whether it's sexual harassment or something else, whether it's workplace or not, without really talking about what that impact was or how they moved through it or what they did with it.
And. I remember when I worked in corporate, one of the women that I worked with was being sexually harassed by one of the men who worked in that organization. And he was eventually asked to, like, not work with her and left shortly afterwards, but there were, other than that, there was, like, not a lot of consequences, nothing said, nobody really helped her, followed up with her, and she has a lot of trauma to this day from that.
Meredith Holley: Yeah. Because it tells you who you are in relation to your community, right? It, it says your value in some ways, [00:33:00] uh, or at least we internalize that it means whether we're valuable or not, and how people handle it, and I think that the, the silence around it, I one time was I was telling a friend from law school a story about when I was in Ukraine and a friend and I, uh, we, we like got on a bus when we shouldn't have gotten on a bus and they like drove us out to the country.
Not that it was our fault, but like in retrospect, there were a lot of reasons to not get on that bus. Um, and I was telling my friend that and I was like, I realized working at the courthouse that that's kidnapping like in the U. S. that is actually like a criminal kidnapping experience and I had never thought of it that way and he was like don't tell anyone that story because you'll sound like a victim and I was like, wow, what, like, I got through being taken on a bus through the cornfields in Ukraine and like survived that [00:34:00] really exceptionally taking care of myself and you think that that makes me look weak. Like, what is the standard here? Like, have you ever seen a superhero story before? Like, what?
Céline Williams: That, and just from the like, language of, I didn't realize that was kidnapping, which is what it would, to have that, that is, Oof.
Meredith Holley: But we're taught, don't talk about, because if you have a marginalized characteristic, if you're a woman, if you're a person of color, if you're have a like physical different mental difference.
If you're queer. Like that means you're weak. Yeah. If you're queer. Yeah. You'll be weak. Because we presuppose that overcoming the, the cultural. Like barriers somehow is like weakness. It doesn't make any sense to me. But, um, yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons that we don't [00:35:00] talk about these stories.
Céline Williams: I agree.
And I appreciate you diving into this so deeply with me because as we said, before we hit record, I'm like, I never know where these conversations are going to go, which is what makes them fun. So thank you for playing along with that. Um, and on, you know, slightly lighter note to wrap up. Um, I'm curious in like, what are you most proud of in the last year ish, though?
I'm not married to an exact year. It's Yeah,
Meredith Holley: no, one of the things that we, um, that we didn't talk about that was something I challenged myself to do after I kind of made those initial steps was to fail more. And I got challenged to fail five times a month. And it helped me filter what I was feeling bad about or blaming myself or criticizing myself about that actually wasn't failure.
It was just my boss having feelings and what was actually failure in the course of [00:36:00] learning that was going to move things forward, you know, which is important to do. We have to fail in order to learn, in order to grow. And so it really made me realize most of what I was doing wasn't failure, it was just men having feelings.
And, um, and that changed things for me. So like the thing I'm honestly most proud of last year is I've been closing down my litigation practice and that's been really hard. And I've been, it's important to me to follow through for clients. So I've followed through on some really difficult stuff for clients as I've closed down my litigation practice.
Cause I practiced, um, civil rights, like employment law for about 10 years. while I've done the mediation and coaching stuff, but I've just been like, the mediation and coaching is so much more impactful, so much more immediately to me to resolve issues and have people move forward thriving, um, that I've been like, I just can't continue to engage in the litigation system that [00:37:00] often retraumatizes and reoppresses people who have already had really vulnerable or stigmatized experiences.
Anyway, so I've done a lot of work to close that down, followed through on a pretty difficult trial for a client, and then I did some really good rewards for my, I got, I gave myself three certifications last year because I love learning as a reward.
Céline Williams: I love that that was your reward. That is amazing.
Meredith Holley: I just love, I love getting a certification.
It gives me this feeling of completion. So I'm pretty proud of how I handled all of that last year.
Céline Williams: That sounds, first of all, it sounds like a lot in a year, so kudos to you for getting through all of that, and congratulations on, you know, shutting down the litigation that, like, I know a lot of lawyers, that is tough to step away from, so congratulations to you.
Meredith Holley: It's a lot of saying no to people when you're like
But [00:38:00] maybe I could help you.
Céline Williams: Well, so that's the hard no, right? It's like you're saying no to people knowing that you could help them and you're choosing not to. And that is Tough.
Meredith Holley: Because you're saying yes to something more important.
Céline Williams: Absolutely. Which is the motivator.
But it's still, it's still hard when people want help to not just always say yes.
Doesn't feel good in the moment, right? Sadly. Um, well thank you for sharing and being so open and vulnerable and there will be links to find you and your podcast in the show notes. Um, but people can look up the Empowered Communication podcast on all the platforms and they will find it there.
Um, and I really appreciate. You taking the time to chat with me today? It was a wonderful conversation.
Meredith Holley: Thanks so much for having me.
Céline Williams: Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find [00:39:00] us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca