The willingness to change and do things differently is imperative in running a successful and sustainable business. Join us for a conversation about leadership norms, powerful shifts and being human at the end of the day.
"Leading through crisis means being willing to pivot and being human, at the end of the day." - Marie Incontrera
The willingness to change and do things differently is imperative in running a successful and sustainable business. We do leaders a disservice by teaching them that there is one right way to do things or any kind of one-size-fits-all solution.
The more we (as leaders) micro-manage, confine or deny, the more we limit people kicking butt on our behalf. That is what we get into in today's conversation with, digital marketing consultant, Marie Incontrera.
Her key takeaways from the pandemic are:
1). We need to be okay with hearing the feedback that we think we explained something and we actually didn’t (in a way that was easily understood).
2). We need to be okay with people coming to us and telling us they’re having a problem.
We have to create a space where people are safe to come to us--even if they don't have a solution for what they're dealing with.
And, "we’re not out of the woods yet. It’s not too late (to implement some of these helpful changes). We might as well use the opportunity to change now.”
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To learn more about Marie Incontrera, you can find her online at https://www.incontrera.com/. Or, by searching "Marie Incontrera" on all social platforms.
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast. A conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Marie Incontrera. Who's the CEO and founder of Incontrera Consulting, a thought leadership and digital marketing consulting agency. She is also an author, TEDx speaker and creative professional. She works with thought leaders, coaches and small business owners on leveraging their online presence through social media, podcasts and TEDx coaching and placement. Thank you for being here today Marie.
Thank you for having me, it's a pleasure.
I am very excited. I feel like we've been talking about doing this for ages and now we're actually making it happen.
Yes.
So if you've ever listened to podcasts, I always open. I always, eye roll as well, but I always open with the same question, you know, sort of set the playing field. And that is, when you hear the title of the podcast, leading through crisis or leadership and challenging times or however, what does that mean to you? How do you interpret that? What is it that you see inside of that sort of concept?
Well, given that we're recording this in summer of 2021 and we're, you know, on the tail end of a very long pandemic and, you know, many of us as entrepreneurs were very scared per very long time. I, to me leading through crisis means being willing to pivot at all costs, right. Even when it's really uncomfortable. And even when you're not sure what's on the other side and being willing to be human at the end of the day, right. Because, you know, I mean, I know I went through this with my team where some really unpleasant things happened, right. And you have to be, at the end of the day, we're human, right. People get sick, people get, you know, worse happens, better happens, you know, we're all really scared. And so at the end of the day, it's almost not even about the work, it's about who's doing the work.
Yeah, I love that you already started with the thing that is very near and dear to my heart, which is that whole idea of being human, that we are humans first and foremost.
Yeah, exactly, I mean, we actually had, one of my freelancers passed away during COVID.
I'm sorry.
Thank you, yeah and it wasn't COVID related, but it was not COVID related, but everybody had the COVID fatigue already and then that happened and it was really sad. And I got to see my team of freelancers who, you know, literally don't owe me anything, right. And everybody really banded to get together and was very kind and very, you know, we were really all there for each other in a way that I think, had we not been through a crisis together, we may never have known about each other.
Yeah, it's really interesting that inside of crises, there is an opportunity for us to really be more human and get to know each other more as humans. And yet that is not always the thing or the reaction that happens when we are dealing with crisis.
Right, that's absolutely right. You know, I mean, on the other end of it, right. I mean, I know a lot of people I work with are scared. Right, a lot of my clients are scared. A lot of my partners, my referral partners, my colleagues, my fellow entrepreneurs, my friends are scared. And sometimes that manifests in not so nice ways, right. Especially through the beginning of the pandemic when we didn't know what was going to happen. So yeah, and that that's human too, right. That's the other part of it.
Yeah, a hundred percent and it's, in my, I've said this so many times, again, I feel like a broken record, but I think what the pandemic did was it removed that veil, that illusion of certainty that we had and just shattered it. And once the certainty was shattered, it was always an illusion, let's make it like. that was not a real thing, certainty is not real, but once the illusion was shattered, then fear took over for a lot of people. And for a lot of people, it's still there, right. Like, it's hard to move out of that fear when you feel like, I don't know what I can or can't trust or believe or whatever going forward, because the thing that I thought was certain wasn't.
Right, absolutely, absolutely. You know, and things that many of us took for granted, I think, you know, I have a lot of friends who are musicians, right. And artists and actors, and many of them, incredibly successful artists, you know, they make their livings that way. And, you know, for that to see, to watch them be out of work because there's no outside, right. There's no shooting, there's no theater, there's no going to a studio. You know, there's no even meeting up in a practice room somewhere, right. Like that kind of change, I think, bred a lot of fear and very understandably right, and it bred a lot of very, very serious uncertainty for a lot of people.
Yeah, yeah, I think that there were certain industries, industries that were affected in much more dire ways than others. And I think artists in general, creative professionals, let's call them, were in that group of, just a lot of them were devastated by then, like, not to be dramatic, but I think that was very evident in a lot of creative professionals.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, and I am very fortunate, I'm in a position where I can hire artists, right. And of course you can't hire everybody, but you can hire some people, right. So I got to be a little bit of, you know, on the better side of things with some people, right, 'cause, but it's hard because you can't, it was such a systemic thing that you can't help everybody, right. And you just, there's, it's just not gonna happen, right. And, you know, I was very fortunate. I work in digital marketing and digital media, and everybody went online, right. And the people who were online were now even more online and the people who weren't online were now coming online. So I ended up being pretty fortunate and, you know, my business retained a level of stability. I mean, it was still very rocky, but looking back, I can say we were pretty stable, right. And we've done really well, but, you know, so I, for me to be able to say pivot is because I ended up in a pretty good place.
Yeah, so I wanna end this may not, it doesn't have to be your story, your Marie's story, personally, that's not the story, but when you started by saying that, you know, leading through crisis is the willingness to pivot, where have you seen that or have you experienced that in crisis? Because I, and I wanna acknowledge that I think that the willingness to change is imperative, whatever that looks like, whether it's pivoting or whatever, I just, you know, gonna use a more generic term for a second is imperative to being able to move through any kind of crisis that we're facing. And I also think that I've also seen more people double down on what they were doing beforehand rather than pivot or change. So that's why that, which is why I'm, and I'm gonna to fully acknowledge, that's why I'm asking the question of like, where have you seen that or what have you experienced in that? Because I think talking about what it looks like, or why it's uncomfortable, or the experience of it, is helpful for people who are resisting doing it in those moments.
Right, right, and, you know, so we have a mutual friend, Dory Clark and Dory's favorite story to tell is how she got laid off on September 10th, 2001, right. She was a journalist and she got laid off the day before 911. And, you know, and her industry has been severely demonetized, right. Because people write for free now and all of that, and print media has gone, you know, all but gone the way of the Dodo bird, right. And, you know, she always says, so I could have shaken my fist at the sky and just given up and imagine what would have happened if Dory had, you know, just said, well, okay, I'm gonna go work in an office and be, you know, like, not try anything else for the rest of my life or, you know, and but she pivoted, and she has this really incredible career that looks very different from what she thought it was going to be and that's okay. And, you know, she has this wonderful story that she tells us now, right. You know, but I, so she's always been a really good model for me of like, look, there are things on the other side of this, right. There's always going to be things on the other side. And sometimes the circumstances change. I mean, certainly this past year, the circumstances have changed, right. And shortly after, shortly after the pandemic started, I was on a phone with a prospect who wanted to talk to me about some services and she's a coach. And she was like, yeah, I'm not pivoting to Zoom coaching. I refuse to not meet my clients in person. And that was when I was like, okay, this is probably not a fit for me, right. I should probably end the conversation.
Yeah.
Because clearly you don't think this is, you don't think this is gonna be around, right. You know, and you're not gonna see the importance of working in the digital media, right. So, I do think people get very resistant to it and to their detriment, I mean, that's, you know, unfortunately, unfortunately we're creatures of habit, right?
Absolutely, absolutely. And I'm, I'm always so curious when someone even temporarily is like, I am not gonna do that thing because it's not the way I've done it before, right. Like even just, even if it's something you have to do for a few weeks, I think that that's, I'm always curious when I hear that about where, why are they so resistant to something different, right? Why, where is that coming from? And I think that it's, first of all, kudos to you. I just wanna acknowledge just for saying like, that's probably is not my person if they're thinking digital media is more of a temporary thing. 'Cause that's kind of what it sounds like, but I'm curious from your perspective, where you saw, I guess, people pivoting successfully in this crisis and what that looked like and if it was anything that you did in terms of how you were showing up online or digitally or whatever the case may be. Because I think that, I think there are still people who are resisting. I mean, there are still people who are resisting.
There are still people who are resisting, absolutely.
It still happening.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I have to shout out my team, my team of amazing freelancers who, you know, give way more to the work that my company does than I ever could have asked for or imagined, right, like just the pivoting to a more slack culture to understanding that like, you know, to being more of a group of self-starters than I could have anticipated. Right, like my team, I don't and I don't even think a lot of it was me, right. Like I think, I think I just happened to have the space to let that happen, right. That all of a sudden, everybody saw that I was a little scared and they were all scared. And so, okay, let's, we have to, we still have a job, let's do the work, right. And let's maybe take a little bit more of the burden off of each other, you know, which has been really nice. I don't even know why that happened, but it happened, you know, and it's been kind of a wonderful thing, right. Like I look back and I'm like, wow, we've really, I don't know how that happened, but it happened, right. And so I guess that's part of leadership sometimes is, you kind of let the space for something to grow and then it does.
100%, I think that is, it's really important to acknowledge that having the space for things to grow for people to change, pivot, adapt, lead themselves, giving some space for that is really important. And I think that, it sounds like you put that together with you as a leader, Marie, who is willing to be a full human being, which includes being afraid in those moments and not trying to hide that from everyone, then empowers them to also be like, okay, we're also scared, 'cause this is an okay thing. It's okay to be scared here. It's okay to be, to have some fear and there's enough space to experience that and then figure out how to move through that and then figure out what, okay, we don't wanna stay in this space, so what can we do? Let's do something, whatever that looks like, right. As opposed to confining or denying, which is what I think often happens, especially when, unfortunately we're dealing with contractors or freelancers, because we feel like we have to let them know less than if they were our employees.
Right, right, exactly, exactly. You know, and the great thing about contractors that I've learned is like, they're all really hard workers, right. You know, I mean, I love hiring artists because nobody works harder than, than a creative professional, right. Like, that's just, I may be a little bit biased, but I believe that that's actually true.
Yeah, you know, let's preach that and emphasize that because I think we get so hung up on this person has to have the exact experience for this exact job in this exact way that I think it needs to be. And we skip over creative professionals or people that have a slightly more non-traditional, let's say, background that are going to be to what your point is, extremely hard workers. So I don't wanna stop your thought, but I just wanna like, let's emphasize that for a second, because the more we get stuck in it has to look this way to hire someone and this person has to look this way, the less we're actually giving opportunity to people who are going to kick butt on our behalf.
Exactly, that's a thousand percent true, right. And somebody who bootstrapped their play for 500 bucks one time, you know, is gonna know how to creatively problem solve in my business, right, where they maybe don't have that constraint, but they have a different constraint, right. And that's going to be even more the case than somebody who comes to me from, you know, they came from corporate and now they're trying to virtual assistant thing, right. 'Cause there's, I mean, that's a different set of skills obviously. And that's really important also. But the skills that I look for are the creative problem solving. And I look for people who are, you know, 'cause people hire me because I'm creative, right. So I hire people because I need other kinds of creative skills, right. So that's, and that's been part of it, you know, is that everybody's a really, really hard worker and everybody is, you know, you learn how to survive in the arts, I think, you know, and you learn what it means to survive and you learn what it means to fight for something and be passionate, you know, like not let the thing die and all of that, right. You know, make something from nothing. All of that is something that you get out of creative people.
So it's really interesting. And I'm gonna fully acknowledge that I was not expecting the conversation to go this way. And I love this because it just made it, this is why I love just conversing. I just made a connection in my brain, which is that, creative professionals, people who come from that highly creative background are so accustomed to dealing with crisis in different ways, because there is so much uncertainty. I'm so sorry for all you creative professionals. Like I, this is not, but there's so much uncertainty in that world that they are probably some of the best people like yourself, that leading through crisis, because they're inherently not comfortable, but understand what that feels and looks like. It's not new, it's, you know, a crisis as a crisis. It doesn't make difference when it looks like, it's that recognition that like, okay, this is a thing we're gonna deal with and we'll figure it out. And we'll acknowledge what it looks like and be able to get through it.
Yeah, exactly, and you know, nothing, to take from my own experiences as we were talking about before, before we started reporting a broken glass musician, you know, right. Nothing is ever gonna be as scary as, you know, surviving in New York city on $15,000 a year, you know, nothing, just nothing. The pandemic can, like, that was scary, it wasn't as scary as worrying about where I was gonna get my next meal from, right. Like, so, you know, or if I didn't, if I wasn't like nice to whatever bad leader was treating me horribly, was I gonna ever play in the city again? Or whatever it was, right. So that's the kind of crisis that, I mean, bring that into an organization and, you know, watch people like really come up with some interesting solutions to things, you know, and ends. And I have to say like, you know, not every creative person is gonna come up with a solution the same way. Like, I have somebody who finally got me off of like invoicing by paper and finally got me onto QuickBooks and like had to drag me kicking and screaming and like was basically my therapist. And she's my, she's a VA and she's wonderful, but like, she's a musician, you know, she's writing musical theaters just like I am. And like had to be my therapist about it and also had to get me to relinquish control. And, you know, and now is saving me 10 hours, 10 to 15 hours a month. And like, had to like force me to do that. So like, I don't have those creative skills, but she does, even though we're technically both creative professionals.
Yeah, it's not a one size fits all. And I, and I think that's a really, what you're saying is really important. It's not one size fits all. It's not that every creative professional is gonna solve a problem or think of things the same way. It's that there is a, almost a foundational understanding of what crisis is going to be and need to solve the, a recognition that there will be problem solving involved in it. And they're okay with it not being the thing we've done 86 times before just doing it again.
Right, right, exactly.
And I think that that is, I think that is really interesting. Again, I love when I can make a connection that I was not expecting prior to. Like I was like, oh, that's really interesting. 'Cause I hadn't, I don't think I'd ever saliently connected those things before, but when I think about it, it makes so much sense why there's, I mean, listen, I think there's value in hiring creative professionals, you know, for a thousand reasons, don't get me wrong, but it makes so much sense why they would have thrived in, you know, freelance environments, maybe where it's not them being a musician full time, but doing these other things or working for companies during this time, because it's another crisis and they know how to figure it out. They know how to find a solution. That is not the thing we keep, we've done, you know. And I'm just gonna keep coaching in person because that's the only thing I'm coming.
Right, exactly, exactly. You know, and I like, I look back to that part, I think about them sometimes and I'm like, I wonder where they are. I mean, we've all been home for 16 months now, you know? So I hope they pivoted, I hope they eventually said, all right, fine. I'll try this Zoom coaching thing, right.
I am curious, this is, I'm now pivoting this conversation slightly, was your team, making this about you, Marie, and your team for a minute. Was your team, were you running it virtually prior to the pandemic or were you?
Mostly, yeah, yeah, yeah, so my first hire was my partner. So I was all of a sudden working 12 hours, 13 hours a day and couldn't do everything. And she was there and in a situation of like, I was like, please help me five, 10 hours a week, please, please, please and she did, and you know, over time she was in a work situation that she didn't really like and I really needed the help. And so she just started doing more and more and more with me and as a result, you know, that was, that was very uncomfortable because I'm used to doing everything myself, right. So I got to make every leadership mistake in the book, on my fiance, right. My very understanding fiance, you know, so I really learned with her and then slowly, the team grew and, you know, people were like, what if you guys break, You know, we weren't engaged at the time and we didn't quite know where the relationship was going. We were living together, but we weren't quite, as you know, long into the relationship, people were like, what if something happens? What if you, you know? And so I started hiring like backup, basically. And it was always like a friend of a friend or, you know, somebody we knew who needed work or something like that. And so it was, yes, it was virtual, but it was also sometimes in person because we were having fun and like, cause we knew each other. And so like, we'd meet up once a week. But what I didn't anticipate is that like we had in-person communications, right. So we weren't a hundred percent virtual, We thought we were, but we weren't. And then we got onto virtual and we were like, oh, this sucks, right. This is hard, this is really hard because I can't even say, oh, I'll just show you on Monday when we meet up for coffee and then you can look over my shoulder and watch me do something.
Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that because I think it is really, I think a lot of people who thought they were virtual, big and small companies, by the way, this is not a bigger small company thing, recognized that they were actually less virtual than they thought they were. When they actually, when they were forced to go a hundred percent virtual and they struggled to take those in-person touch points that are so valuable for specific reasons and translate them into a virtual environment. And that is, that was a really unique challenge that I think people were not expecting at the start of this.
100%, I mean, I went through it, where I had to be okay with people saying to me, I have no idea what you just asked me to do, you know, like literally like, whoa. All right, can you please now explain that. Because I have, I'm not a mind reader and it's humbling because we do that. We think we explained something and we didn't because we were in our heads, right. So learning how to do that is, especially when everybody's newly at home, you know, everybody's scared, you know, all of that stuff, right. That was a special challenge.
Yeah, so if you had to, if you look back at, I'm putting you on the leadership hot seat here for a second, if you look back at the, how you led through the changes that were happening from actually having to go remote and recognize that maybe the way you were communicating in person didn't translate to remote the same way, which who doesn't for any of us. And it's always a fun recognition to be like, oh, wow, that was not what I thought it was gonna be. But if you look back at sort of, whatever that looked like, and it doesn't have to be only those things, beyond that as well, what would you say are the few, a couple of the really key sort of takeaways that you have as a leader at the end of this crisis, let's call it, not the word at the end, but you know what I mean.
Yeah, well, the first thing is, you know, be okay with hearing the feedback that you think explained something and you didn't, because that's very humbling feedback. It's also very hard to hear. It's very easy, especially people who are used to top-down leadership, to get really angry when somebody asks you to repeat yourself, right. Or like whatever it is, right. So you wanna make sure that you're okay with hearing that you need to explain things a different way. You also need to be okay with people coming to you and telling you they're having a problem, because they're gonna have it like, this year, they did have problems, right. They're gonna continue to have problems. So that's another thing and like, even me who, you know, leads freelancers, right. Like I heard some of the, I had to hear a real problems, right. Real problems that kept people from doing the work, that helped us, you know, then we had to pivot, right. That kind of thing, that's important too. So those would be the biggest takeaways, is just like, keep your ears open and be okay with people coming back and saying like, hey, I explain this to me again, I need it. Or, you know, I can't work today because.
So I love that, I think we often tell leaders historically, and I'm gonna remove myself from the we, because I talk, I really am like, we need to stop. Saying this, we often tell leaders that, you only want, you wanna encourage people to come with solutions, not problems, which there is a time and place for that and I appreciate, it's not to say that that doesn't matter. But when we're telling leaders that people are only to come with solutions, not problems, and they're creating a culture and environment where people are only coming with solutions and not problems. And that means that people don't feel safe to actually talk about problems that they don't have solutions for. And they're not always going to have solutions. So what you're just saying really emphasizes to me the importance of creating an environment where, if there's a solution, come with a solution, but it doesn't mean don't come with a problem, that they're safe to do both, it's not one or the other.
Right, exactly and I'll just say this, the worst boss that I ever had, who now I realize was way in over their head, right. You know, I was 25, they weren't much older. And they used to say things like that, they would say, you know, don't come to me with a problem unless you have three solutions. Or my other favorite was, if I would say, oh, I'm having a problem, no, no, no, you're having a challenge. It's like, no, I'm actually having a problem. I can't do this work, right. You know, don't police my language before I even get to the real thing, right. So I, and the truth is, that business closed, right. Th business is no longer here. And I think about those practical applications all the time. 'Cause I'm like, oh right, I didn't feel safe. You know, I was making mistakes all the time because I couldn't tell my boss and have them, you know, treat me like a human being, right. I was worried about getting yelled at because I didn't come with solutions, right. Or say a problem instead of challenge.
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think that, I appreciate you sharing that story because it's really important to remember that, like, we have to create a for people where they are safe and they can say those things and they, it's not just about the language police 'cause that doesn't ultimately serve you or the other people.
Exactly, exactly.
I adore you, before we wrap up, I'm gonna ask this question, is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanna make sure you have a chance to say while we're here or that you wanna emphasize about what we spoke about for people?
I think I just wanna emphasize that we're not, you know, we're not out of the woods yet and everything that we, everything that we've gone through, right. Like if you haven't pivoted, it's not too late. If you haven't been hearing your team, it's still not too late, you know, like we're still in COVID, we're still in the middle of the crisis. So we might as well, like, you know, use the opportunity to change now.
Yep, yep, I love that. I think that's the perfect place to wrap this up. Where can people find you online?
Well, my website is.
Where can we get more about Marie Incontrera.
Well, you can Google me, I'm highly Google-able, I'm the only Marie Incontrera that exists. It's the benefit of having an interesting last name or a unique last name. At inconcerta.com or find me on, you know, LinkedIn, all the socials at Marie Incontrera.
And we will have all of that linked up as well in the show notes.
Awesome.
So I really appreciate you. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. And for being here, you are lovely and your insight is super important and super relevant. So thank you for sharing it with us.
Thank you for having me, this was great.
Always my pleasure. Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.