In this episode, we dive into the rise of fear-based leadership and tactical tools for recognizing and navigating leaders who operate through fear, control, and shame. Whether you're feeling the tension of walking on eggshells or unsure how to protect your energy at work, this conversation offers clarity, strategy, and hope.
The workplace is changing fast.
From economic uncertainty to cultural shifts and the rise of AI, business leaders are operating in a constant state of pressure, and a troubling leadership style is on the rise.
In this episode, I sit down with CEO coach, venture capitalist, and author Kate Lowry to unpack what fear-based leadership looks like and how to protect yourself from it.
We explore:
- Why fear-based leadership is on the rise
- How to spot a fear-based leader before you sign on
- Tactical “upward management” techniques that actually work
- The psychology behind leaders who operate through shame, manipulation, and control
- Gendered differences in how fear-based leaders show up at work
- The critical skillsets you must develop to thrive in today’s environment
If you've ever felt gaslit, overworked, or subtly manipulated by someone in power, this episode is your blueprint for protection and empowerment. Listen now.
“You are not powerless. You just need new tools for a new era of leadership.”
—
Kate Lowry is a CEO coach, venture capitalist, and author based in Silicon Valley. An expert in fear-based leaders, Kate developed her methodology growing up in a personal hierarchical family, then refined her approach in the elite worlds of start-ups, private equity, management consulting, and big tech at McKinsey, Meta, and Insight Partners. She is the author of Unbreakable: How to Thrive Under Fear-Based Leaders. In her free time, you can find her writing comedy and music and cuddling her service dog, Annie.
Learn more and grab the book at:
www.katelowry.com
You can also connect with her on:
LinkedIn
Facebook
Instagram
After the 20 second intro... [00:00:10] Céline: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
[00:00:40] Céline Williams: My guest today is Kate Lowry, a CEO coach, venture capitalist and author, and an expert on the rise of fear-based leaders in the workplace. Welcome, Kate.
[00:00:51] Kate Lowry: Thank you so much for having me, Celine.
[00:00:53] Céline Williams: It is absolutely my pleasure. I'm extremely interested in the, to the [00:01:00] topic of your expertise, fear-based leaders in the workplace but before we get into that, 'cause I, we will. gonna ask the question I always start with, which is the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. When you hear that phrase, what comes up for you?
[00:01:15] Kate Lowry: What comes up for me is thinking about our cultural moment. So right now the majority of the CEOs in my practice have been coming to me feeling like. They're in crisis,
[00:01:30] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:01:31] Kate Lowry: because they're bad leaders, but because we are in a period of huge cultural change. a lot of macroeconomic volatility.
We're seeing a new type of leadership emerge. Um, especially in the US right now. Social systems are changing, political systems are changing, economic systems are changing, means that for better or worse, a lot of people are in upregulated [00:02:00] states right now, and they need some help learning new skills to deal with the new moment.
[00:02:07] Céline Williams: Yeah. Um, I think that is a very succinct way of putting, of summing up all of the, levels of crises and levels of potential crises that people are facing. And so I'm curious when the people in your practice that you deal with are coming to you talking about this, are they looking for
how do they lead themselves through it? How do they lead teams through it? How do they navigate it? I ask because those layers of crises, it could be overwhelming to, to. You know, be facing or trying to navigate all of that.
[00:02:56] Kate Lowry: Yes, the first thing that they're looking [00:03:00] for is for someone to join them in their reality.
[00:03:04] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:03:04] Kate Lowry: coming to me saying something feels off.
[00:03:07] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:03:08] Kate Lowry: You know, this feels wrong. You know, they present in different ways. Some might be overwhelmed and frozen. Some might be, spinning out and freaking out.
Some might be angry about something. But essentially my role as a coach is to say, yes, I see the things you are seeing. You are not alone. Your reactions make sense. And then I reground them and anchor them into the ground. And then we talk about how us versus problem, we're going to handle it together. for a lot of leaders, there's a sense of denial in the water. the US right now, there are a lot of people saying, Hmm, everything's fine. It's not a big cultural shift. Things aren't different. Everything will be okay. And so it's actually really important. [00:04:00] There's at least one person in their life like me who says, you know what?
We are headed into a more difficult fundraising environment. So I want you to fundraise early. Fundraise now, not later. I want you to fundraise 50% more than you normally would. You know, because we may end up with some inflation. We may end up with currency devaluation. And not enough advisors are joining them in their reality to help 'em strategize about things like that.
[00:04:29] Céline Williams: That's really interesting that there is that level of denial of the reality of what's happening or the potential fallout from the reality of what's happening. It's interesting that there's that amount of denial happening, with the very clear cultural shifts that are happening not only in the US but on a global scale as well.
[00:04:55] Kate Lowry: it is so interesting because technologically we're seeing the AI boom.
[00:04:59] Céline Williams: [00:05:00] Yeah.
[00:05:00] Kate Lowry: huge change. You know, from my perspective, we're seeing a rise in a new style of leadership. Which is kind of a gloves off era of permissiveness to be all about ambition and power without caring about the humanity in your workforce.
What I have noticed is that overall capacity is very low. not that they don't. Want to engage in reality, it's that systematically they can't hold space for all of it. And so it almost creates a allergic reaction or a bounce off their forehead,
[00:05:37] Céline Williams: That's right.
[00:05:37] Kate Lowry: level of aversion to admitting what's there.
And
[00:05:41] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:05:42] Kate Lowry: book is about saying, no, actually this is a new reality. And new realities require new skill sets. What I wanna tell you is that you can thrive, even though this looks really different than what you're used to, but you have to learn the [00:06:00] skills to help you get there.
[00:06:01] Céline Williams: Yeah, so, I want to both ask about the book and the thriving and the skills to get there. And also, and maybe there's a link so you can tell me, but also what you mentioned about what you're observing around the gloves off leadership, and how that's showing up I would really like to ask about both things and I'm not sure which one to start with.
[00:06:28] Kate Lowry: Yeah, so we are seeing something really different, and I started noticing this this past winter. It was around February. And a few things stuck out to me. was going to Silicon Valley events and my peers were all saying the same thing.
[00:06:45] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:06:46] Kate Lowry: I have a really difficult manager. I don't know what to do with this person.
I can't, I can't find someplace better, but where I am is terrible. And it was this. Palpable sense that they were jumping from the frying pan into the fire. And these were [00:07:00] highly credentialed, very intelligent people. People from Ivy League schools, people from Google, people from Facebook. So that is very different than 10 years ago when people were going, I love working at Tech Giants.
Like everything is great. Work-life balance is amazing, blah, blah, blah.
[00:07:14] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:07:15] Kate Lowry: and then I also started to notice my clients and peers going, whoa. Something is different. I don't know what to do, but I was fine. That's when I realized I had a toolkit that they didn't. And because I had grown up around cruel, hierarchical, difficult people and then had many bosses like that in my careers and private equity and startups and big tech, I've essentially run decades of experiments on these types of leaders who say. going to extract value from you. I don't care if you die at your desk, I don't care if you burn out. It's just about extracting value. I don't
[00:07:57] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:07:57] Kate Lowry: your humanness. It's messy. [00:08:00] I don't like that you have emotions. I don't like that you have needs.
[00:08:04] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:08:04] Kate Lowry: you could just be machines, and it sounds really strange, but 10 years ago CEOs could never say that and now they're going. Get in line or get out, and
[00:08:16] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:08:17] Kate Lowry: very different.
[00:08:18] Céline Williams: So you noticed, observed that you had a different skill set based on your history to navigate this. How did that show up for you? What did you do with that? 'cause you really started to notice this coming up more earlier this year.
[00:08:31] Kate Lowry: Yeah. And um, I didn't know I would write a book this year, but I sure ended up writing one.
[00:08:37] Céline Williams: Great.
[00:08:38] Kate Lowry: went, oh no. These people don't have these skills. They really need these skills. Um, and I wanted to make sure that. There was a resource available so that people did not feel alone,
[00:08:53] Céline Williams: Mm.
[00:08:54] Kate Lowry: these types of leaders will tell you, I'm powerful, you're powerless, you're nothing [00:09:00] without me.
Resistance is futile. They feed you a load of bunk
[00:09:04] Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:04] Kate Lowry: makes you say, I am so by myself, that it is hopeless. The only thing I can do is submit. And for me, like any day that someone feels alone in the face of a bully is a day too long. Which is why I am doing a million podcasts to help people know this book exists because it turns out that when people use fear-based tactics, it makes them really predictable. And when people are really predictable, upward management tactics work very reliably on them. And so if you can learn to understand how they think and how they make decisions, there is kind of a big toolbox of tactics that, that you can use as, maybe to say cruelly like a, a crap umbrella.
[00:09:52] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:09:53] Kate Lowry: Can crap on you, but it just spills over the sides because in your place, you are safe, you are dry, you are warm.[00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Céline Williams: Yes. So I'm extremely curious about what some of the predictable behaviors or tactics that leaders who are people, not only leaders 'cause, but people who are acting this way, or leaders who are leading this way. What some of those look like because ~I, ~there may be people listening or watching who are like. Maybe that's what I'm dealing with, but I'm not a hundred percent sure.
[00:10:28] Kate Lowry: Yeah, so some clues you may be dealing with a fear-based leader, you get a particular feeling around them. you feel like you have to walk on eggshells, like you have to tiptoe around them, that's probably a chance, a reason that someone is using, fear-based tactics on you. If you see someone using shame to motivate, trying to belittle others, trying to manipulate people to do their bidding, those are also fear-based [00:11:00] tactics.
And so one of the first things I say in my book is that first you have to lock down your inform.
[00:11:08] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:11:08] Kate Lowry: They weaponize information against you. So one of the first protective things you can do is never tell them what you actually care about. Because if you say, oh man, I'm so excited to go on vacation to Hawaii, or I really wanna go to my kids' little league game this Friday, then they will control you by making you work late.
So you don't go to the little league game or they'll say, no, you have to work through your whole vacation,
[00:11:34] Céline Williams: Mm.
[00:11:34] Kate Lowry: whatever it is.
[00:11:36] Céline Williams: Yeah, that's. That makes a, that makes a ton of sense. And I appreciate the examples because that, I think that helps people. And one of my biggest pet peeves is leaders that shame the people around them. It is, and it's, I think it can be exceptionally insidious [00:12:00] and, covert. Some leaders are really masterful at doing that in a covert way.
[00:12:06] Kate Lowry: Yeah. One of the other things I say is you have to be inert around them. That sounds strange. A person being inert, but like. You have to kind of be like the most boring thing in the landscape.
like a gray rock. You can kick a rock, you can yell at a rock. It's still just a rock. and the thing is, leaders like this feed on reactions.
They feed on attention. if kicking you is really boring, eventually like going to kick someone else,
[00:12:38] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:12:38] Kate Lowry: but you have to know how to make it boring, right?
[00:12:41] Céline Williams: Yes. I assume that these are some of the skills that you go into in your book is like, how, how to be a boring rock. If you had to pick the, again, I want to dig more into the [00:13:00] fear-based leaders and also wanna ask the question around like, what is the number one tip or trick you would give someone who is dealing with a fear-based leader? And they may overlap, right? It might be an example of, here's the tip and here's the type of leader ~that it is that shows up~ that it works with.
[00:13:16] Kate Lowry: Fear-based leaders, I call them fear-based because they themselves are motivated by fear. They're really deeply insecure and they lie awake at night with their subconscious going, will I ever be enough? Will people really like me? If they don't like me, will they at least fear me? And because fear gets them out of bed in the morning, it's the only way they know how to motivate others.
[00:13:43] Céline Williams: Can I ask you a question about that very quickly? In your experience, do those leaders know that they are motivated by fear? Like is it a conscious, okay, you're shaking your head no, so great.
[00:13:57] Kate Lowry: One of the chapters in my book is called [00:14:00] something like Arrogance is Blinding. So if you ask these leaders, they will say, I'm on top of the world. I have money
[00:14:07] Céline Williams: Okay.
[00:14:08] Kate Lowry: I have power. Everyone bow down before me. And in their mind, there's no such thing as equality.
they're see themselves as either stepping on others or being stepped on. And so their goal is to always be stepping on others.
[00:14:26] Céline Williams: right.
[00:14:26] Kate Lowry: Because that's protective
[00:14:28] Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:29] Kate Lowry: so they say, I am on a pedestal. You are all below me. And when you kind of anoint yourself as king, you know, they go, Hmm, I am a king. Being a king is good. But inside they're really insecure. And the tactics in my book play on their insecurities.
[00:14:46] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:14:47] Kate Lowry: one of the things that I say is availability and responsiveness is leverage. If you want to have leverage over a fear-based leader, be available. And you can come back the next [00:15:00] day and go, oh, my phone broke, or I was out of service, or I was on a flight, or whatever it is you wanna say. But in the eight or 10 hours that you don't respond while they're having tantrums or whatever they're doing, it makes them spin out, am I really important?
Why aren't they showing me the deference I deserve? Rah rah.
Um, and so, yeah, but, they don't realize consciously that that's what they're like.
[00:15:25] Céline Williams: My assumption was that they don't realize consciously, which leads me and I appreciate that example and that, I think that's a great tip, by the way, is to not be, available whenever they need you, 'cause that. Presumably, ~um, ~helps reinforce their idea that they are king because people respond to them quickly. So I think that's a great example. And the follow up that I would have to, that is they are not of their own insecurities and that they are motivated by [00:16:00] fear, are they aware that they are leading with fear is this a situation that in your experience, this is just what good leaders do or whatever they're telling themselves?
[00:16:13] Kate Lowry: They see themselves. As powerful. They definitely know that people are afraid because they like to see people jump,
[00:16:28] Céline Williams: God.
[00:16:28] Kate Lowry: if you ask them, do you motivate with fear, they'll say, no, my people love me. They do exactly what I want I am adored and that's why I think it's very funny if fear-based leaders read my book, their arrogance blinds 'em from
[00:16:48] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:16:48] Kate Lowry: to see that they themselves are a fear-based leader because no one wants to admit that they are motivated by fear.
[00:16:56] Céline Williams: Yes, I love that you went there. That's kind of where my curiosity was [00:17:00] leading me was like, would imagine that fear-based leaders, while they might find your book interesting, are never gonna be like, oh my gosh, that's what I'm doing. I might need to change my behavior.
They're like, well, that's definitely not me. My people love me, or whatever it is.
[00:17:18] Kate Lowry: Exactly, and that's what makes writing a book like this so fun. You know, there's a chapter in it called Don't Buy Milk at the Hardware Store.
[00:17:27] Céline Williams: Great chapter.
[00:17:29] Kate Lowry: the idea is that if you go to a hardware store to buy milk, you'll always be disappointed.
[00:17:34] Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:36] Kate Lowry: fear-based leaders are like the hardware store. You have to know what they're capable of selling. aren't capable of empathy or compassion or being considerate or showing you that you're valued or expressing appreciation, but they are capable of a lot of other things. They're capable of using leverage, being transactional, rewarding you with [00:18:00] certain things that you want. you know how to buy those things from them. And so, um, part of this is just like you were talking about with denial about the macro environment. Right now, you have to admit that yeah, you're around a fear-based leader. And then once you do, you can meet them where they're at and get a lot of your needs met.
[00:18:20] Céline Williams: So I have seen a number of leaders over the years in the work that I do that as an outside person. Also experienced this on teams, but you know, I've observed it a lot more as an outsider. Who I would say are fear-based leaders. You know, based on this conversation, I would say, I think they fall into all of those categories and they were masterful at feigning, maybe empathy. So they [00:19:00] really hooked people at the beginning or in the right moments were able to act like they were compassionate or caring or whatever the case may be. Almost like then they could justify the fear-based leadership the rest of the time. Right, because they cared in that moment. And I'm curious, one, you seen that? And if you have, how can people notice that or be aware of it? Or are there signs for things like that?
[00:19:37] Kate Lowry: Yeah, so. Fear-based leaders can be very smooth talkers. They're
[00:19:43] Céline Williams: course.
[00:19:44] Kate Lowry: really good at manipulating people, because they size people up very quickly.
[00:19:51] Céline Williams: Mm
[00:19:52] Kate Lowry: They will use what they learn to put a shiny face forward.[00:20:00]
[00:20:00] Céline Williams: mm.
[00:20:00] Kate Lowry: Um, then often. They will show their real face after someone has signed an employment contract or has agreed to marry them, or, you know, whatever the situation is. And in my book there's a chapter about how to diligence. So you know, I come from venture capital and private equity where you have to diligence companies before you invest money in
[00:20:24] Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:25] Kate Lowry: studying whether the company is inver is worth investing time and money in. you should be doing the same thing before you join an organization, whether that's a church group or a job, or any other type of. that has power dynamics and a really good way to tell if someone is a fear-based leader by asking for specific examples of when a leader has done something. Tell me about what happens when people make mistakes [00:21:00] on your team. Tell me about Tom as a leader.
What are some ways that he has created sponsorship opportunities for you? Tell about. What time you close your laptop at night and if you get generic feedback back, Tom is great. I love working for him. Oh, like of Niche is such a good leader. You should totally join. That is a warning sign. If people are genuinely good leaders, they will have a bunch of examples. Oh, when I had my baby, this person sent me a gift basket and he didn't make me send any emails for the three months I was off. Or when I first joined the team, this person checked on me every single day to make sure that I was okay. And so, if you get told someone who's great with no specifics be concerned.
[00:21:54] Céline Williams: I love that. I think that's a great example and I wish more people had [00:22:00] those conversations, in that interview process. And I think often people are really hesitant to interview the company or the leadership team, themselves. I think it's a great tip and I'm curious. If I am speaking to the leader I'm gonna be working for. Are there any questions that I can ask them that will give me a hint of whether they might be a fear-based leader? totally putting you on the spot with this, so you might be like, no, but maybe there are some or behaviors to observe?
[00:22:35] Kate Lowry: Yeah, so a few things. I'm a really big fan finding your own people to talk to. So someone will always refer people that they have control over to make sure they get positive references, go.
[00:22:49] Céline Williams: Oh my gosh, yes.
[00:22:51] Kate Lowry: Go on LinkedIn and find three people who recently left the company. Talk to them, tell,
[00:22:56] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:22:57] Kate Lowry: why they left. Um, fear-based leaders [00:23:00] will, will straight up lie to you. However you can watch their expressions when you mention messy human things
[00:23:10] Céline Williams: Okay.
[00:23:10] Kate Lowry: you can get them to self select you out.
[00:23:14] Céline Williams: Hmm.
[00:23:15] Kate Lowry: if you say, I have a 2-year-old and I have to put her to bed every night between six and 8:00 PM like, you understand that, right?
They'll say, yes, I understand, but they'll make like a revulsion face at you. Or if you say. Unlimited vacation is really important to me. I think that not burning out is critical, and I want you to know that when I'm on vacation, I am completely offline. that okay for you? And they will either make a face or nod or pretend, but more likely you'll hit one of their trigger [00:24:00] buttons, which is you people just aren't committed anymore.
People don't understand the meaning of work these days,
[00:24:06] Céline Williams: That's,
[00:24:06] Kate Lowry: blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you can set them some trip wires and see if they fall for it.
[00:24:11] Céline Williams: I think those are great examples and my instinct would be to ask about mistakes that they've made. Not their team, but like that they've made and how they've recovered or what they learned, um, and see how they respond to that.
[00:24:29] Kate Lowry: I have had fear-based leaders say to me, oh, I don't make mistakes.
[00:24:33] Céline Williams: That's exactly.
[00:24:35] Kate Lowry: You can definitely ask them that. Can ask them. I've heard from many Silicon Valley fair base leaders. If you ask 'em, tell me about a time you were wrong about something, they will say things like, well, I'm interviewing you, not you interviewing me.
[00:24:50] Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:52] Kate Lowry: they'll say, well, I'm just right about things all the time 99% of the time I'm right. And, and so you'll [00:25:00] see their arrogance pop out
[00:25:02] Céline Williams: Oh yeah, that's quite an answer.
[00:25:06] Kate Lowry: But I've had people tell me that repeatedly. So they don't realize that that's not a normal thing to say.
[00:25:15] Céline Williams: That is one of the most interesting things is to think like it's totally normal to be like, I'm right all the time. What are you talking about?
[00:25:23] Kate Lowry: Right. You know, like say often that like, if I haven't. three mistakes by lunchtime. Like something is wrong, You know, like, don't know most things about most things
and, and like, a fear-based leader will never, ever admit that.
[00:25:43] Céline Williams: And I think about some of the fear-based leaders I've known, and I can imagine them if they are savvy enough to not sidestep in that way I can imagine them having answers that highlight how their [00:26:00] team or the people around them were wrong. Not them. Right. It wasn't really their mistake. It was the information they were given wasn't good. So I can also imagine a version of that.
[00:26:13] Kate Lowry: they will blame other people.
[00:26:16] Céline Williams: Yep.
[00:26:17] Kate Lowry: well I made a mistake this one time because Jerry gave me the wrong numbers and he's so unreliable and blah, blah, blah.
[00:26:24] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:26:25] Kate Lowry: Fair based leaders hide it a little bit better.
[00:26:29] Céline Williams (she/her): Can you tell me a little bit more about maybe some of the, the gender differences that may show up?
Because I. To your point there, there are differences and it might be easier to recognize certain behaviors and overlook others, and some of it may be gender based, some of it might not be, but it sounds like at least some are.
[00:26:52] Kate Lowry: There are differences typically in gender presentation with fear-based leaders, um, [00:27:00] male fear-based leaders are unapologetically bombastically arrogant. They tend to have a, more pushy, aggressive in your face. I'm a business shark. I'm going to conquer, I'm going to tear down, I'm going to destroy type of attitude. You have seen some people in Silicon Valley where I'm from, where, a fear-based leader will say. This person gave me bad media coverage of my company. I'm going to sue Gawker out of existence, or this person gave me bad coverage. They're my enemy. Now I'm going to buy the newspaper, and they will never have bad coverage again. They tend to be much more about and posturing. Almost think of like gorillas in the [00:28:00] jungle, like pounding their chest. Female fear-based leaders tend to be masters of shame, guilt, tripping, and manipulation.
[00:28:12] Céline Williams (she/her): Okay.
[00:28:12] Kate Lowry: will say things like well, I guess I'm going to have to do all of this myself because you guys just don't know how to get it together.
[00:28:20] Céline Williams (she/her): Mm-hmm.
[00:28:21] Kate Lowry: like, well, this is just me doing this again because no one else knows how to do anything around me. It's a much more, I'm the victim. Like they will lash out, they will insult people. They will name call, they will press lots of buttons. But because society. Doesn't allow quite for the same range of behavior from them. They can be a little bit more toned down.
[00:28:51] Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah.
[00:28:52] Kate Lowry: Okay.
[00:28:53] Céline Williams (she/her): I love that example. I think, and I appreciate you saying it, because the socialization of, little [00:29:00] boys and little girls, and I'm saying that on purpose because they are at the, when children are young, they are socialized in very specific ways based on how they present little girls are socialized to be good and quiet and not say things out loud.
And so it makes sense that, females tend to be more covert or, positioning themselves as victims because they, they're socialized to be the good girl and to be polite and to be, you know, to please people overall. And so I think that is, I think it makes sense and it's important. It's an important distinction for people to be aware of.
[00:29:45] Kate Lowry: Yes. Also, a lot more of their bad behavior happens behind closed doors.
[00:29:51] Céline Williams (she/her): Amen.
[00:29:52] Kate Lowry: They might monologue at you for hours while telling you about all your deficiencies, but then [00:30:00] smile up at their boss.
[00:30:02] Céline Williams (she/her): Yep,
[00:30:02] Kate Lowry: things, things like that. I do know a few women who are as bombastic as the male fear-based leaders.
[00:30:11] Céline Williams (she/her): of course.
[00:30:12] Kate Lowry: but it is a much more polarizing style
[00:30:15] Céline Williams (she/her): Yes,
[00:30:16] Kate Lowry: that
[00:30:16] Céline Williams (she/her): yes.
[00:30:17] Kate Lowry: high costs to them.
[00:30:18] Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah, and I imagine that there are some male leaders who are as, manipulative or passive aggressive as some of the women. And it's maybe more covert because of that.
[00:30:33] Kate Lowry: If there are, I would say the fear-based leaders I know like that who are male, tend to be in helping people industries.
I have seen them very commonly in medicine,
[00:30:46] Céline Williams (she/her): Mm-hmm.
[00:30:48] Kate Lowry: faith organizations. It's much more, I'm going to wrap this in benevolence, but underneath the benevolence there is an iron fist.
[00:30:58] Céline Williams (she/her): I [00:31:00] love the way you just phrased that. Wrap this in benevolence, but underneath the benevolence as an iron fist. I think that is brilliantly stated. People often don't. See past the benevolence as easily. We are blinded by the bene the, we see that and we're like helping, and I think it is, I think it's a wonderful turn of phrase.
[00:31:24] Kate Lowry: In my book, there is a chapter, I think it's called False Generosity is Not Generosity, um, something like that. fear-based leaders can do things that look generous,
[00:31:38] Céline Williams (she/her): Mm-hmm.
[00:31:39] Kate Lowry: however, they come with invisible strains. It's always a, well, I gave you a car, so you owe me all of your devotion forever, because I'm the best.
CEO in the world. Types of expectations tied to stuff.
[00:31:57] Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah.
[00:31:57] Kate Lowry: if a fear-based leader ever tries to [00:32:00] give you something, um, know, that it, it comes with an invisible contract, and they will definitely ask you for what they want in return in short order.
[00:32:12] Céline Williams (she/her): Yes, it's it reminds me of when people don't state expectations, and I am full disclosure, I'm not a person. I know there's lots of people who hate the concept of expectations and they. They've been demonized, and I fully understand that I'm not that person because we have expectations no matter what.
So to pretend they don't exist for me doesn't make a lot of sense. But when we don't explicitly acknowledge and state our expectations out loud. Make sure that we're on the same page with someone about those expectations. We end up with what I call ghost expectations, which then drive them as I almost knock my mic, which drive behavior in a specific way and we end up disappointed.
Or there's these strings that we don't know are there, if not really sure what you're [00:33:00] signing up for, then there are probably strings in the background that will be pulled at some point.
[00:33:06] Kate Lowry: Yes, also. my book, I had to specifically include negotiation frameworks for how you negotiate with people who negotiate in bad faith, because people like this will sign a contract and then they'll try to pay half of what they promised. will go into a negotiation. With a scorched earth type of, I will never capitulate type of mindset. And so the types of offers that you have to make to get what you actually want and need are really, really different than if you're going into a classic good faith negotiation.
[00:33:50] Céline Williams (she/her): Yeah. For that reason alone, I think everyone should read your book because that's real to navigate. Before I tell people where they can find out more about you, is there [00:34:00] anything that either we didn't get to that you wanna make sure you say, or potentially that you wanna emphasize
[00:34:07] Kate Lowry: yeah, I would say you're not powerless, you're powerful, but you need to learn to speak the language and use the toolkits of this new era. And you also need to be dramatically more mindful about building resilience and protecting your energy. And my book has strategies for how to do that. But if you haven't identified, three ways to fill your energetic cup each week, you need to work on that because you can't deploy new strategic toolkits if you're running on empty.
[00:34:50] Céline Williams (she/her): That is a great, great point and a wonderful way to sum this up. So for anyone who's listening or watching, everything is in the show notes per usual, however. [00:35:00] You can learn more about kate@katelowry.com and that's L-O-W-R-Y for anyone who's listening. And Kate's book will be out very soon and we'll have all of that in the show notes as well.
Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today, Kate. I really appreciate it and there were tons of incredibly valuable points that I have no doubt. Our listeners are gonna be taking notes about.
[00:35:26] Kate Lowry: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:35:28] Céline Williams (she/her): Absolutely.
[00:35:30] Céline: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage and clarity.