In this conversation, Kasthuri and I talk about breaking leadership norms, why empathy and transparency are so important, and what truly motivates people.
We tend to think that authenticity needs fixing. Even though all the statistics show that diversity is good and it works.
We look for leaders who look like and show up as we do -- which often means we are contending with a paradigm that doesn't include anyone seen as “other”.
We need fresh eyes and more diversity in leadership. We also need to see more examples of healthy work/life balance from leaders.
This is a great reminder of why people show up to do the work and how we can embrace our superpowers as leaders and individuals.
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To learn more about Kasthuri Thiru, you can find her on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kasthurithiru/).
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. A conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. Hi, and welcome. My guest today is Kasthuri Thiru who is a technology executive and an expert in building high performing teams. She is passionate about women in leadership and is committed to paying it forward in everything she does. Kasthuri, thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
It's absolutely a pleasure. I'm really excited to talk to you today and as anyone who listens to this podcast knows I always start with the big broad question to kind of level set, which is when you hear the concept or the title of this podcast, which is "Leading Through Crisis," what comes to mind for you? What comes up for you? What's your relationship with that idea in general?
Mm-hmm. I have led through many crisis, maybe not the COVID time, but prior to that, what comes to mind first is empathy. I think it is critical when we lead through crisis especially, having empathy towards the team and the people you manage is critical. I also find that, you know, having a genuine interest in developing others and listening and knowing their problems is important as a leader because it is a two way street. When you provide that to the team, the team will step up and be able to support you in, you know, beyond what you can imagine. And that can only be achieved by a leader who would sympathy in serving them.
So I love that. I'm so happy that you started with empathy and I'm going to, I'm gonna ask a question whether it's from your experience or stories that you've heard.
Mm-hmm.
But I think that for a lot of people, it can be really hard to be empathetic in crisis 'cause we're so concerned about ourselves or an outcome, or to know when it's okay to balance accountability with empathy.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm curious from either your experience or stories that you've told, how can leaders who are struggling with it or, you know, aren't sure how to be empathetic in times of crisis or when they also need to be accountable, what can they, how can they kind of balance those things out? Because I think it's really imperative to high-performing teams, which is something that I know you are really an expert in to have both.
Yeah. This may sound cynical, but I put myself in their shoes, right? Whenever it comes to empathy. How would I like to be treated if I was in that position? And that makes it easy. Along with empathy comes also transparency, right? Especially during crisis. It is important you don't keep people in the dark, you communicate, you listen. I think that automatically also enhances that empathy factor and makes it easy on the leaders to understand what the team is going through and communicate more. And sometimes during crisis, we may not have all the information that, to communicate and be transparent, but at least acknowledge the fact that there are uncertainties that you're working through, promise them eventually you would provide charity, give them information that you can provide to avoid speculations, rumors, be honest and open. I think those would lead to transparent leadership, as well as people believing in you and being able to trust you.
I think that's a really important note that there's a balance between, that transparency actually enables empathy and vice versa, right? There's a balance between the two of them. If someone is struggling with knowing when to be transparent or what that line is, where it becomes, say oversharing or too much information, how can they move, how can they work through that? Like what could, what advice would you give someone who's like, "I'm just not really sure what I can share or what I should share"?
Mm-hmm. Definitely, I mean, there is information that they know, gray areas that you may not be able to share everything, but take a step back and think about, think hard about what is that you can share. At least you should be able to mention the difficult situation you are in, acknowledge the fears the team may have, the rumors they may be hearing, right? You can show a blind side to those things. So it is important that you acknowledge those, understand them, and to do the best of your ability, provide clarity. There's always a high level that you can provide, I find, you know, step away, you provide a high level, provide timelines as to, you know, they'll check back again in three weeks and, you know, provide a little more detail to you. I think those type of constant communication and assurance, the teams appreciate that a lot. That also leads into, so, I mean, just because we are in crisis, doesn't mean the work doesn't get done, right? So there are goals and mandate as along with that comes. And again, having clearly understanding the goals and the mandate of the organization, whether it's a reorg. that's happening, or a merger and acquisition, or any changes that's happening, find out what the mandate is. Did you, you need to believe in the organizational goals in order for you to be able to communicate that back to the team well so that you can rally the team around that. So it's important as a leader, I believe, to be able to do that communication piece.
Yeah, I agree. I wanna go back to something you said that I wanna come to the back to, we go back and then come back basically. So when you said that, you know, acknowledging the fears of the team has or what they're going through, I wanna emphasize that because I don't think we talk about that enough. And I think there's a fear that leaders have that if they say the fear that they're seeing on the team, or they, you know, that elephant in the room, it's a term that I use 'cause I do exercise about, but if they name it, that it's somehow going to make it real-
Real?
even though it's already real, right? And so I think what you said about acknowledging it is really important because it doesn't, it's already real. Just because we're naming it, doesn't make it realer, it just means that now, people can actually work through it and talk through it and feel like they're not the only one in that place.
Exactly, and it comes out in the open, right? When you put it out in the open, people are more willing to talk about it, discuss, ask questions, right? If the leaders keep ignoring it, but they know it's happening, they're talking about it, then that becomes a rumor and, you know, the water cooler talks and all that. I think it is important to me, that's part of the transparency too, right? You're hearing these things and you can, to me, you don't, it doesn't have to come from you. You can mention, you can ask the question. What is that we wanna discuss, right? Listen, and then bring it up as their fears and points and discuss them in the open. I think that allows for confidence building, as well for the other teams.
Yeah. I think that's really important. I often tell leaders when I'm working with them and they're going through, there's change or transformation or whatever you wanna call it happening in the team, which means there's uncertainty, which means there's fear. I often say, "I think you're okay." Like, what I would do is go in front of the group of people or talk to them and say, "Here's what I would be feeling or here's what I imagine some of you are feeling."
Mm-hmm.
So that it's now okay for them to say, "I'm totally feeling that way." 'Cause they're not, you're not saying, "Hey, tell me how you're feeling," which some people can hesitate, but you're saying, "Here's how I would be feeling if I was in your shoes or here's how I imagine you're feeling." It then gives them the confidence that it's okay to speak up.
Talk about it. That's right, yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely.
And I really appreciate you bringing that up because I think that we don't talk about it enough. We get so hung up on because it's kind of a, it is a gray area and it is a, there's that kind of traditional leadership mentality which you don't talk about it if you don't have to talk about it and you don't wanna call that out 'cause then you're gonna bring attention to, well, I think it's already there. Let's bring attention to it. Let's name it.
Right.
Let's take the power away from it, not give it more power.
Exactly. Yes, you said it well.
So I wanna, I love your point about, like having a clear goal or having a clear mandate and communicating that. And I think a lot of, listen, I think a lot of people, it's not only leaders necessarily, but I think a lot of people in general struggle with, how do I know what goal I should be setting? How do I know what that, like where do I start with that? And I'm curious from your perspective and your experience.
Yep.
What, where could they start? What does that look like? I mean, I don't believe that there's a right or a wrong way, but are there better ways to set goals or get that clarity?
Mm-hmm. So when we talk about goal, I'm not sure which side you're coming from, but maybe there's two types of goals right now, the goal for the organization and goal for the employee themselves. So you need to tackle both.
Yep.
The organizational goal is important for you to understand, and for you to be able to break it down in the simplest, most understandable terms, and be able to repeat that very often to the team so that everybody is, you're rallying the team behind you. It's especially important when you don't have a direct line of authority to some of the teams. So the cross-functional team, bringing them together, it is important you have that clear mandate and the goal for the entire team so that we can all rally towards that goal. And again, to your point, each individual may have their goals as well. And it is also important as a leader for you to sit down, listen, understand, and be able to help them know what their goals is or guide them in their goals-
Yeah.
and help them along the way. So both are again, important for the team to succeed and to build a, you know, highly performing teams.
Well, and I think that, I appreciate that and that is a good clarification. I think that often, leaders struggle with, so first of all, I think there's lots of organizations that don't really have a clear vision that they really share with their employees. So that's challenge one. And I think a lot of leaders struggle with setting vision and goals for their own teams, right? So it's not even, it's not, it is that translating. If there is something that's higher level for the organization, they struggle with making that applicable for their people.
Team, yep.
And so I appreciate what you shared 'cause I think that we talk about it being important and we talk about being a visionary leader, whatever version of that you wanna say as an important thing, but then people go, I don't know what to do with it. Where do I start? What is that? What is that really?
Yeah, so if you don't know what it is, and if you are not able to digest this, how are we gonna get things done, right? We need to know what we need to get done-
Yeah.
in order to succeed. So I think that that translation is important and to be aligned. It is important that you understand what the organization want to achieve and what are the pieces that you need to contribute in order for that to be successful. And you bang on, it is important for us to be able to understand that and then articulate that so everybody in our team also knows what they're doing. And nobody wants to just do the work just because it needs to get done, right? You need to have a good rationale and a reason. Yes, they get paid to come in and do the job, but there's more to it than just coming in and getting paid. Everyone would like to be part of a vision, to be part of a goal. That's what motivates people, a lot of the people. And we don't wanna miss out on that.
Thank you for saying that because I have, I've said so many times in the past year that the business, no one is motivated unless you are the business owner, no one is motivated by business outcomes. No one. None of us are like, "Oh, well, thank God the company made an extra $5,000,000 this year. Like, that's not the thing that motivates us. It is our purpose or our connection, our purpose and connection to the company's purpose and connection. It's not the outcome or goal that is actually what's motivating. It has to be it's, what's in it for me, right?
Exactly.
Like, what is it, how is this applying to me?
And you need to acknowledge that and work on that as well because if you just look on the company goal and not the individual goal, then you lose that commitment from those employees, right? That's why as a leader, you need to focus equally. So that's why sometimes people say that, you know, we would, as leaders, we care about you, we wanna develop you, we wanna provide, you know, we wanna make sure that your goals are met, but then we don't walk the talk. But then you do that, you know, you as a leader is not standing out with the team and the team is not going to back you up. So it is important you put a genuine effort and genuine interest in developing the people and your team so that they are giving back as well. To your point, I mean, yeah, nobody just wants to make million dollars for the company. There's something in it for them as well and we better acknowledge that and work on it genuinely along with achieving the company goals. Other ways, it's not one or the other, it's both.
Yes, I couldn't have said that better myself. It is not one or the other. It's this one and that one.
That's right.
And we tend to do this one or that one and that's, I think where we get stuck a lot of times as leaders in organizations.
Yep.
So I know that you're very, you know, I mentioned this in your intro. I know that women in leadership is something that you're very passionate about and very committed to, and I'd love to kind of get your lens on where things are at and why this matters so much to you. And you know, what you think maybe the opportunities inside of it are for these days, 'cause everything's always changing.
Yeah, yeah. Well, all the statistics tell us having a diverse work environment is more productive, right? So we do a great job in going out, hiring, identifying and hiring authentic leaders, but, you know, diverse background. This is also done because to, you know, get to a level that the organization looks good in terms of diversity and inclusion. But later I find, later down the road, when we have these leaders, we tend to think that authenticity is something that needs fixing. We nurture the characteristics that we know as good leadership and embrace those. Those may be the board decisive, decision-making tough, right? Tall, handsome, those are some of the mind models we have about leaders. And when we do a good job of gathering these authentic diverse leaders, but then we don't appreciate them. We don't value the diversity and authenticity they bring to the table. I was lucky enough the organization I was with then, the leaders and the mentors I had were very supportive, but I also had some instances where the leaders, you know, tend to think this is how the leader should look like and act like and I'm not one of them, right? I'm not the bold and the decisive and the tall and the handsome person in the table. I think it is equally important to embrace collaborative leadership, resiliency, empathy, you know, smart problem-solving. All those traits are equally important as the other leadership traits that I know of. And it is not one or the other, I think both needs to be at the table in order to, for the organization to be productive and to be successful. And I think it may be unlearning. We know so much about what the leadership should look like, and maybe there needs to be a little bit of unlearning to value and embrace those authenticity, authentic leaders that we get.
So I love that you used the term unlearning 'cause I think that's the perfect term inside of this because I think what's really interesting to me is that this shows up no matter what side of, or what type of organization you're running in my experience. So there are organizations where it is the, you know, I'm just, I'm gonna name it for what it is that are tend to be more traditional where it is the tall, handsome, often older white men who have established the leadership norms in the organization. And they are, you know, a buttoned up suit, casual Fridays maybe, but quite put together and formal, their hair is styled a certain way, clean shave, and whatever that, whatever. And then the female version of that, right? Where women are fitting into that mold.
Right.
And on the flip side, there's also tech companies do this where it is the, everyone is really casual, no one is, you know, lots of beards, shaggy, whatever. They show up as shaggy, whatever, but you know, they have their own look and they're looking, their bias is towards leaders who show up like they do. And neither one of these is actually inclusive or diverse because you show up to the start-up and you're in a suit because that's what you're comfortable in or you are in, you know, entirely different type, I'm trying to give other types of clothing, something that is not what they're used to or different hairstyle, right? So this happens. I've heard a lot of stories, unfortunately, of black women in the US in the past year where they, these stories have been coming out where they're criticized, they have comments about their hair in certain contexts because it's not what looks like these other people. And it's rather than saying, this is actually, this is exciting that you're bringing a, this tells me you have a different background than I do, a different lens on things, a different perspective.
Mm-hmm.
And that should be embraced and continued to be embraced. It becomes a, this is cool upfront, but now, I don't know what to do with it now that you're in here.
Yeah.
I'm glad you brought that up. I find, I speak to lot of young women and I've mentored them. And it's unbelievable how many of them feel that leadership, being a leader means you don't have a work-life balance. Being a leader means being there in the office for long hours. And I know this, I have experiences, you know, being a young mother growing through my career, I would leave the office in a decent time then my colleagues are still there, right? Working late. I do have that, you know, guilty conscious when I'm stepping out of the office, but I used to always keep up with that because I find it when I disconnect from the office at a decent time and return back the next day, I have fresh pair of eyes, looking at the problem differently, and I'm much more productive when I'm in the office because I know I'm going to be there for only certain hours and I'm much more productive. But I feel that it is, we are leaving out the population of, our workforce who are talented and great, especially young women, you know, or young mothers, because they see leaders looking visibly harder. And I wanna emphasize on this term visibly harder it's because you see them more in the office long hours, right? So you assume. So we need more leaders who can portray what a leadership is because I have had many leaders who are very supportive. They would say, "You know what? Don't worry about it. You know, go home at four when you need to and take care of everything and come back." But they are there in the office 'til 10 o'clock in the night. So how do I feel comfortable leaving, right? So I, but I always think that when I went through the career, I wanna be an example where I tell my team, "You, it's okay for you to leave because I'm leaving too, right? At a decent time. Let's come back and tackle the problem the next day." Everybody, it's not just women. Everybody has a, needs a work-life balance to have a productive environment. And that's, again, I think another trait, another area that we should focus on as a collective community. I think we have an obligation to change that mindset.
Mm-hmm, a hundred percent. There's a great, I think it's Joey, I think her last name is Griffiths, Joanna Griffiths who's the founder of Knix, who just went through a funding round and this was all over the news and she was very pregnant while she was going through her funding round. And one of her things was that if people asked about how is she gonna be a CEO when she's about to have a baby during this funding round and she was like they're not, you know, we don't want their money basically because she's trying to flip that paradigm on its head where it's like, just because things don't look the way you think they should look, doesn't mean they can't be effective or efficient or a better way or anything else.
Definitely, yeah.
And I think it's, I think women more than men, and then people of color on top of that, but women more than men are contending with a paradigm that was, that doesn't include them.
Yeah.
And then there's layers on top of that so they're not, I'm not saying that's that, but like, you know, you're first difference-
Cultural society, yep. That's right.
Right. There's lots of layers on top of that, but it definitely starts, it there's, just there, just gender-based. And that's only two of the many genders that could be at, just two options and there's already a huge distance and disconnect inside of it, let alone anything else.
That's true.
Yeah. So do you have any, and I appreciate that you've been, that it sounds like you've been quite lucky to have leaders that did their best. Maybe not always perfectly, but really did their best to acknowledge that it's okay to do things differently and look differently and be different. But for someone who is, I know you do a lot of mentoring for women and when women come to you and they're really struggling with this and they're struggling with, I don't look the way that they think I should look or that I feel, it's not even necessarily they think. I don't look the way that I feel they expect me to look. I don't sound the way that I feel they expect me to sound. I don't wanna work the way that they expect me to work i.e. long hours, i.e. in the office, whatever the case may be. What advice would you give someone who finds herself in that situation?
Nay. No, I repeatedly tell them that they need to understand and feel confident about what they bring to the table. Like, it is important. They need to understand that long hours doesn't equate to great leadership or productive person, right? And they need to see more role models like that, people who are doing that, who are practicing those. And there are great leaders around us who have done that, like to your point, people who have led with the babies in their hand, right? In politics and in IT as well. So those, it is key for us to feel confident. And it's key for our leaders, all leaders to be able to support those people as well. So we need supporters, we need environments which will, you know, environments where we accept those as normalcy and embrace those people. Otherwise, we are gonna lose those leaders, the value they bring to the table, the thought process and whatnot, right? And that's not a great place to be.
Yeah, absolutely. Before we wrap this up, I wanna ask this question and the answer can be no, there's no pressure, but is there anything that you wanna emphasize inside of our conversation today, or that we didn't get to that you wanna make sure we talk about before we wrap this up? 'Cause I know we've covered a lot and I, you know, I wanna make sure that you've shared whatever you felt compelled to share inside of this.
Yeah, I just wanted say that not all leaders are the same. And when we see leaders with certain characteristics, we try to emulate those leadership characters and there's the imposter syndrome, right? And I went through that myself. When I admire a leader, I feel like, you know, I wanna, and it is okay to do that. I mean, we do wanna learn from others and emulate them for sure. But at the same time, don't lose your superpowers because each one of us bring something different to the table and it is important for us to know and be confident about the superpowers we bring. So we don't have to all, you know, comply to those traditional leadership traits that they know of. There is something unique and different you bring to the table, and it is important you keep that up. So you don't become, that doesn't mean that you don't have areas of improvement, right?
Of course.
So we need, it's important for us to know what we are good at and what we are not so good at and work on them. To me, just work on being a better version of yourself rather than trying to make somebody else. It's a thought I want to live with.
I think that's a perfect place to end. Thank you for joining me today, I really appreciate it. We're going to, for anyone who's listening, who wants to connect with Kasthuri, her LinkedIn bio will be in the show notes so you can connect with her and learn more about her there. And I thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate you sharing your experience and your lens on this. It's extraordinarily valuable, and I appreciate it very much.
Thank you for the opportunity, and I enjoyed the whole thing. Thanks a lot for having.
Absolutely, my pleasure. Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.