In today's episode, Emmy award-winning journalist and CEO of Speaker Dynamics, Karin Reed talks to us about creating a successful hybrid work environment and managing the modern meeting.
In this conversation, we discuss the complexities that can arise when managing a hybrid environment, as well as some incredibly helpful strategies.
Karin shares tips from her new book, Suddenly Hybrid: Managing the Modern Meeting, on how to make hybrid work more effective.
She talks about the hardware, software, and skillware that is necessary; some things you should (and should not) do as a leader; the key to success and gaining that competitive advantage in today’s modern landscape.
“Remember, it’s not going to happen on its own,” she says. “You have to be really purposeful in preparing for a hybrid meeting that’s going to work.”
We have a real opportunity right now to be proactive and develop plans that are good for employers and employees.
I hope you'll join us for this important conversation on hybrid work, schooling, and meetings!
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To learn more about Karin and her work, visit speakerdynamics.com. You can also find her on all the social platforms by searching "Speaker Dynamics".
- [Céline Williams] I'm Céline Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis Podcast: a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. So my guest today might be a familiar face to some of you, having been on the show before. This is Karin Reed who is back for a second time. She is an Emmy award-winning journalist and CEO of Speaker Dynamics, and she recently published her third book, Suddenly Hybrid: Managing the Modern Meeting. Karin, it's really nice to see you again.
Céline, it's great to be back. Thank you so much for having me again. I was really excited about this conversation.
Oh, me too. I mean, I loved speaking with you last year and I think that the book that you have recently released is super timely as I know we've discussed remote meeting stuff in the past. So, I'm excited to get into this conversation with you and thank you for coming back, 'cause it's always nice to have familiar faces back on the show.
Absolutely. No, I like being able to get reacquainted with people and find out what they're up to. So, it's as much fun for me as hopefully it is for you.
Absolutely. So as you know, from last time, I always ask the question, what does leading through crisis mean to you? What comes up for you? And I'm curious, having been a year-ish since we did this last and having published a new book in that year and having, you know, been through all of the things that happened in a year of time, 'cause it is a lot. Now at this point, when you hear leading through crisis, what comes up for you or what is kind of top of mind inside that concept?
Well, I think that because of my history in broadcast news, I kind of thrive well in crisis anyway, 'cause I kind of made my living in that. So yeah, it takes a lot to rattle me in the first place, which is good because there's been a whole lot to get rattled by over the last two years. But I think what's interesting now is when we last spoke, you know, crisis was very raw. You know, everything was changing. We were still very much dealing with the pandemic and everything that was surrounding that. But now there's kind of this different crisis because it's the crisis leading to the next step, you know, that transition into the future of work and you know, what that looks like. And I think that has been interesting to try to help people navigate, you know, it's less on, okay, how do we make this work in the situation that we're forced to be in which at that time was, you know, a fully virtual world where we could come and help people to be able to figure out how to do that. And now, you know, a lot of the work that I'm doing is helping companies to be able to transition into the hybrid world where you do still need the muscles that we, you know, build up over our fully virtual lives, but also incorporating it with the ones that we had prior to the pandemic.
Yeah.
So that's the crisis right now is the crisis of figuring out, okay, it's no longer okay to be in emergency mode. Now we need to be more strategic and make sure that we are making the right choices for, you know, the foreseeable future.
And it is a really interesting shift because we all ended up in this virtual world as a reaction. It was like, there was no choice, everyone go home.
Right.
Six hours from now, everyone's taking their computer home. We're figuring this out.
Right.
That's it was very reactive. And there's a real opportunity with the hybrid world to be proactive about it because it is, you know, I'm sure you've heard this as well. I've heard both sides of things where people are like, everything is gonna be entirely virtual from now on.
Right.
And then the people who are like, let's get everyone back in the office A-S-A-P, because it has to go back to the way it was. And neither one is really future focused.
Correct. I mean, hybrid is where we're likely going to end up if that's possible in the line of work that you do. And with that in mind, it does require a totally different mindset, you know, and a different approach. And I guess my concern right now, like the crisis that I'm feeling, is that people are not being strategic enough, intentional enough in how they are moving into it. They'll see it fail and then you'll possibly be having some, you know, decision be made from the top that is then dictatorially given to everyone else. And then you have a whole bunch of dissatisfied people. So that is, I guess my concern, my fear right now is, is I'm watching this kind of unfold in real time.
So I'm curious because of your expertise in this area, where are you seeing the failure points or where is there a lack of strategy for a lack of a better way of saying it, that you're kind of consistently seeing show up.
The one that I'm sure you probably have heard about too is okay people are coming back into the office to sit on Zoom calls all day. What is the point of that? It doesn't make any sense to bring people back in the office to be with each other, if they're in their own, you know, cubicles or offices being very much distant. And so what I would like to see happen is to have a greater emphasis on figuring out how to make these hybrid meetings effective because all of the research that we did for the book shows that they can be really satisfying. They are the most inclusive of any kind of meeting. They have the highest, you know, satisfaction rates, the highest levels of participation, the least amount of recovery time needed between them. Meaning, you know, time where you can debrief on what just happened and then, you know, get ready for the next. There are so much good that could come out of a hybrid meeting, but people don't know how to do it and they're not looking to figure it out. And instead they're just saying, well, you know, we've done Zoom for the past, you know, two years, let's just stick with that because then we know at least we can include everybody on the same level playing field, but that's not a good solution because you're missing out on the opportunity to bring people in and even part of that group can, you know, have that different energy level that happens whenever you're face to face. And that can seep into the virtual experience of those who are attending remotely as well, provided that they were brought into the action.
It's interesting because I feel like, and I'm not saying this is the truth, 'cause it may just be my experience, but I feel like it seems more complicated to have to think of both things. I don't know that it is always more complicated, but it seems like it would be more complicated to think what do we do when people are in person? What do we do when people are virtual and then how do we make something work for both, whether people are in person or virtual and therefore we just avoid doing it. People just are like, well, we're gonna do one or the other, rather than even if it's not more complicated.
Right.
I'm not saying it is more complicated.
But it is more complicated. I mean, I think that you're correct. It is more complicated just by virtue of the fact that it's a complex communication environment. So when you were fully in-person, you had one communication medium that you were working through. It was basically the air that we all were collectively breathing. When we were fully virtual, that was one communication network. We were all on the same screen. Now we are actually, you know, dealing with multiple communication mediums that all have to be networked together. And yes, it feels more complicated because it is, but it's not insurmountable. So you just have to have some strategies around it to make it work. Joe and I talk about how it requires the right hardware, the right software, and the right skill wear. So you need the technology to support it, you know, from a hardware standpoint, in the meeting room design, as well as, you know, the remotes need to have, you know, a great quality webcam, you know, good audio, you know, good lighting on their faces so you can read facial expressions. You also need to have the right software so that you can have collaboration, equity and participation equity. And then you also need the right skill wear, which is the training, the training of the meeting leaders, but also the training of everybody who's attending these meetings that they have to recognize that those who are in the meeting room, aren't just the ones you can reach out and touch. So you need to raise up a collective awareness about that and also implement some policies so you don't come up with a two-tiered system where those who are in-person have greater access to information and opportunity than those who are remote.
Hmm. So I'm curious about that because I can see that piece being very challenging because, you know, even when people were sent home for the pandemic and were working virtually, and then in many cases, some people went back to the office for various reasons, whether it was executives who they could go back and so an executive team would go back where everyone else still had the choice to stay home. 'Cause that was very common in my experience. Or they had it was a lot easier for some people to do their work in an office environment or it was required in some ways and the conversations and the information, how things were shared there was, it's very different than virtually.
Right.
Everyone was virtual. So just that experience, I think everyone was like, oh, it was really highlighted the difference.
Right.
And I'm curious in this hybrid meeting environment, how can that be made equitable in some way? Like, what are some of the things that people should even consider to ensure that that disparity doesn't exist? 'Cause it kind of, you know, I think of if people are in a meeting room together and some people are virtually. The people in the meeting room on a break, they're all like chitter chattering and having their conversations.
Right. The meeting outside of the meeting.
Exactly. So like what are some of the ways that, or even just maybe ways, but also what should people think about to minimize that sort of thing?
Yeah, there's a bunch of different things that are immediately popping to mind. The one thing that is kind of the overarching goal is to make sure that any information needs to be explicit rather than implicit, meaning that you don't have to access it by being, you know, there and, and take it in by osmosis. You know, that should be a primary focus is to make sure that everything's documented so that anybody who is, you know, located anywhere can access the same information. You know? So if you look at those companies that have been leading the way in terms of remote work, like at GitLab, you know, they are documenting everything and everybody can access it regardless of your level in the enterprise. You know, that documentation orientation is really, really important if you're in a hybrid situation because you don't want that to be a situation where, oh, I know so much more if I'm in the office versus if I'm remote. It's also a big, you know, in terms of like building your culture and team cohesion in those team ties, you know? So in terms of the meeting itself, there's a couple of different things I'll mention as strategies that I would highly suggest you employ. The first one is just making sure that you have remote speak first. So say that you are in a meeting, you have some people who are in person, some people who are on, you know, a video platform, whether that be Zoom or Teams or Google. You have your agenda set up so that you hit the first discussion item. And instead of, you know, if you're leaning the meeting from in person, rather than turning to your right and saying, hey, Joe what do you think? Instead, turn your attention to the screen and ask the remote people to weigh in first. So what that does is it gives them the opportunity to speak immediately, but it also raises the collective awareness of everybody that there are more people in this meeting than perhaps you might realize. So that's one strategy to definitely use another one is to create in room allies. So for example, if you have some people who are remote, some people who are in person, match up the in person people with the remote people and they are in essence their buddies. They're the ones who are gonna be advocating for their participation in the meeting. So say for example, you know, we're, you know, on some discussion item and we hit on something that I think you are an expert in and you are attending the meeting remotely, but I'm in person. What my job would be is to say, hey, I bet Céline has a really great perspective on this. I know she's worked with a lot of clients on this. Céline can you, you know, tell us what you think? And that gives you ownership of making the meeting be effective. And it starts to kinda link those ties, because it is really difficult to, you know, ward off the in room bias. But if you're pushing against that always, you can get past it and then it starts to become second nature. So having, you know, that different orientation and different mental mindset really, really helps. I'll give you one more.
Yeah.
And I'll let you ask another question.
I love this.
So if you are a meeting leader, try leading it in different ways. So maybe one time you're gonna be leading it from within the meeting room. Maybe another time you're leading it from a remote position because that, you know, shows that you value everybody's input regardless of where they're located. It sends a strong signal, you know, subconsciously. But it also reminds you as a meeting leader, what it's like to attend a meeting remotely. And that's always good, because sometimes we can easily forget when we go back to our old habits and, you know, primarily most of us were face to face and it is easy to slip back into that because that's the playbook that we were working off of for all these years and how soon we forget what it was like, what everybody was virtual. So that reminder of going through the exercise of leading a meeting virtually is really, really valuable.
So I love all of that there and there's two things immediately that come to mind is the first one is, and I'm gonna tell a really quick story. I was running a training last year and it was a large enough training and I was in person and I had a co-facilitator who was virtual.
Perfect.
And it was a large enough meeting. And listen, you can do this with way smaller meetings, but it was a large enough meeting that this way she and I were interacting in a very particular way because she was virtual and presenting some of it. I was presenting some of it. All the remote people had the, you know, the virtual people had the opportunity to speak up in a very specific way or flag for her because she was virtual that they had something to say, if I somehow missed it, 'cause as much as you try, sometimes when it's a large enough meeting, you miss things. But I love what you're saying about try being virtual, because even shifting a dynamic that way, where having a co-presenter, co-facilitator who was not in person as well, that made a huge difference.
I think sharing the burden is huge, right Céline?
Yeah.
I mean, if you come up with different roles for people to play, then it's not just the meeting leader, who's trying to tackle all this because there's a huge cognitive burden in a hybrid meeting. Spread it out, you know, have a meeting moderator who can do what you're talking about, you know, whether they are like the person who's in charge of making sure the virtual folks are paid attention to.
Yeah.
You wanna have a technology lead. So if a remote attendee is having trouble with, you know, the meeting link that they can address that separately. You know, have those in-room buddies, you know, actually formalize the system, you know.
Yeah.
And say, okay, you're the buddy with this person, da, da, da, da, da. And that way that's already setting yourself up for a more effective session than if you just went to that blindly. But, you know, I've experienced leading virtual trainings that have been done really well and also, you know, fallen victim to a really poor tech setup in a hybrid classroom that was terrible. And you know, a lot of, I think the pitfalls right now are just the technology is not quite there across the board. Not because it's not available, because it's not been invested in.
Yes.
In the right way, you know? And, that, that worries me, that people don't quite know what it takes. And like, so maybe people are saying, well, what is the right thing? So .
Yeah, great question.
I can just give you my apples to apples comparison. I was actually guest lecturing in two universities in one week. And the first one, I was guest lecturing as a virtual presenter. And it was in a hybrid classroom that was very robust. So within the physical classroom, they had three huge monitors. One had my slides big. The other one had me big. And the third one had the Zoom window, at the time, with all of the virtual attendees and the chat open. Then on the other side, you know, the remote attendees could see all of the stuff that they would normally see if they were in a virtual meeting. I had the professor in the classroom who was serving as that moderator that you're talking about, where they can kind of, you know, help you as a co-moderator to be able to, you know, take questions that were coming in.
Yeah.
Or guide the exercises in-person as I was guiding the exercises virtually, and that worked supremely well. And I felt like I got a lot out of the session. I liked leading it. I felt like, you know, the class, you know, got a lot out of it too. But then conversely, I was leading a class at a different university and I was doing it in-person and their version of a hybrid classroom and I'm not exaggerating was an extra laptop that they opened up.
Oh no.
And, I know. It was a Zoom meeting. They opened it up. The poor virtual people were on there, but they weren't even having me show my slides through that virtual meeting. So the people who were, you know, attending remotely couldn't even see my slide deck. It was actually projected on a completely separate system. You know, a lot of times the professor was muting them, so they couldn't hear. It was just, it was terrible. And so that's the kind of tech trouble that I worry about that people will think, oh, a hybrid classroom will just open a zoom link and you know, put it at the end of the conference room table that is not gonna work. And it's gonna feel more like a glorified live stream.
Yeah.
That still feels very unsatisfying.
It's astonishing to me the difference in what you're talking about and the fact that, that exists to that level at this point.
In a lot of places, right.
But that it's astonishing. I don't think there's anyone at this point who, you know, 80% of people who've been in any kind of virtual meeting have been in at least one where you've been on the receiving end of that. Even if it was the first month of the pandemic, when people are trying to figure things out and you were like, this is all, this is a terrible experience. I can't follow it. This isn't working. And the fact that that experience hasn't driven them, for lack of a better way of saying it, to do it differently because they've been through it, I think that's what I find so shocking is. there are easy ways, if you have the resources, to set up three screens in the back of a room that's fantastic and wonderful.
Yeah, yeah.
And not everyone does. And there are still easy, inexpensive ways to make it better than what you've just spoken about. And it's just about considering.
One big monitor, as opposed to a little tiny monitor with a little webcam and inadequate audio, you know, that is, you know, kind of the typical video enabled conference room I see right now.
Yeah.
And, you know, the early, you know, pushback that I'm hearing about is just that the audio in the conference room is not up to snuff and it's difficult for remote attendees to hear the conversations that are going on and they feel like they are marginalized.
Yeah.
And that, you know, there was a really amazing survey that came out by Barco a couple of months ago. And it was talking about, you know, how people were doing, who were working in a hybrid environment. And 30% of those they surveyed said that they would consider a job offer from another company that was hybrid provided, that they had a set hybrid meeting policy in place. Like it was that important.
Interesting.
And they felt like there was just a lack of attention given to, you know, having it be, you know, laid out because it does require forethought. It requires, you know, interaction between the IT department and the end user and a really collaborative approach to making sure that what they put in place from a technology standpoint actually is helpful.
Yeah.
You know, I was actually talking to a client the other day, who is, I'm gonna be brought in as a kind of communication resource for their meeting room design. And, you know, they were talking about how, oh, yeah, we've got this conference room camera and it's, you know, really at the top of our big monitor kind of looking down. I'm like, okay so if you wanna create participation equity and make people feel like they are a part of the conversation, why do you have the webcam at the top of the, you know, right near the ceiling? Like, that's not an effective place to put it. Put it at, you know, at eye level for everybody else, who's sitting around the conference room.
Yeah.
You know, so it's simple tweaks like that, which you think don't make a difference, but they really do because it's all in how you're making people feel on the other side. And so it's that kind of stuff that, you know, that's a small tweak, you know, at least they have a nice conference room camera, right? But if you're really thoughtful and you talk to people who are using it, you can get a sense of, oh, that's interesting. So rather than having the camera here, I should have it here. Or, you know, what about the lighting? How can you ensure that everybody can see each other's faces adequately? You know, not having, you know, the long conference room table and the bowling alley view. Instead, put people in a semi-circle, you know. So it's those kind of things that are definitely being overlooked, you know, but those are kind of like the smaller ones. There are larger ones, which are people that, you know, are just opening up their laptops and calling it a hybrid meeting and that's a problem.
Yeah. So it's really interesting what you said about the meeting room design. I have I've participated in meetings virtually where the client had a meeting room design and it's so interesting. There's, you know, the difference, even in one meeting room where they have, there was a camera at the end and it was at eye level, but they also had a camera in the center of the table that I don't know how it did this.
It revolved.
It revolved. So as people spoke, it would like pinpoint the person and focus on that person and then move. And I was like, this is brilliant as a remote person, because it's, except when it went to the screen, when someone remote was talking, which was a whole other hilarious thing, because we were like, oh, we're looking at our, but like, truly when it's fun, you're like, oh, you really feel like you're part of a conversation. And at the same time, the acoustics in the room and the microphones, even though they had, you know, someone come in and set it up professionally, and this is why, for example, the camera was so great. It was still challenging with the sound. And it's really interesting when some things have such attention paid to them and other things do not.
Yes.
And to me, it's really that lesson like let's consider all of these things equally and get them to a good, like, if it's not, it doesn't all have to be perfect, but to a good enough point where the experience works for everyone.
Yes. And people are much more tolerant of poor video quality than they are of poor audio quality. And it's funny because I think audio's often the afterthought, because you can't hear how you sound, right? And unless somebody's on the other side saying, wow, I can't handle this. You know, I can't hear what you're saying. I'm frustrated and is very vocal in their opposition, people just kind of let things slide and that really should be priority one. So, you know, and what you're talking about, it sounds like there's something called a meeting room owl which is the revolving thing.
Yeah.
It's actually really cute little piece of technology. But yeah and I think you need to try these things out, be willing to change it if it's not working, and recognize that this is an evolving situation in terms of what technology is gonna work for your teams, what works for your organization.
Yeah.
And make those tweaks, but it's kind of, you know, test, change, test, change, test. Okay, land on the thing that really works.
Yeah.
And, and it's important to go through that process.
And I love what you said about, you know, people overlooking the importance of audio. I mean, you have a background in broadcast. I have a number of friends who are in film and television, and they will tell you that you can forgive a lot of the video, of the visual, of the lighting of, I mean, you can always correct some, but the audience will forgive a lot of that. If they can hear what is being said, and they can connect to the words.
Yep.
But when you cannot hear, it doesn't make a difference how beautiful it is. It doesn't make a difference how great it looks, 'cause you're not in the story. You're not in whatever. And if we think of that in the meeting room and take that nugget that you said, cause I think it's so important. That's a great starting point to not forget.
Yes.
Because if we can't hear, doesn't make a difference how good you look.
Absolutely, totally agree.
I wanna ask this question before we wrap up, which is, we've covered a lot of a lot and I know there's always so much more that we could talk about, but I'm curious if there's anything that you wanna make sure you either emphasize before we wrap it up or talk about before we wrap it up.
I think it's just important to remember that this is not something that is gonna happen on its own. You have to be really purposeful and preparing for a hybrid meeting that is gonna work. So that means, you know, laying out, you know, the policies that you wanna put in place. We have in Suddenly Hybrid, a team meeting agreement that walks you through the steps of the things that you need to consider, relative to participation, relative to pre-work. We didn't even get to talk about that, but that's also really important relative to how people show up if they are going to be remote. You can't have bad internet and say, I'm gonna, you know, be a remote attendee. That's not fair to you. It's also not fair to the people you're meeting with. But there's a great checklist that I would advise you go through with your team and then share it with those who can help you to also make it happen. Because a lot of times the technology needs to be there to support it, but it doesn't have to be, as you mentioned, the three big screens and an amazing, highly produced, you know, setup. It can be just a matter of, okay, do I have a way of having everyone be seen and heard? And if that is a good deal, then you you're already ahead of the game and ahead of most other people as well. But we would just encourage you, don't give up on it. You know, hybrid meetings have a lot of promise. They reflect how people wanna work now, which is hybrid and having that flexibility. Figure it out, because it's gonna give you a competitive advantage.
Yeah, and I love that. I think that's one of the most important things for leaders and organizations to remember is that is now and will continue to be a competitive advantage in the marketplace.
Absolutely, you bet.
And we are obviously gonna put a link to your book in the show notes for this, but people can find you online at speakerdynamics.com. Is that correct?
Yes, that is the best place to find all things Speaker Dynamics and Karin Reed. You know, the books are on there. We actually, as a result of the pandemic, we needed to figure out a way to get our, you know, basic best practices out to folks. So we created Speaker Dynamics University, which is an online training that allows you to improve your virtual presence and virtual meeting skills, you know, in an asynchronous fashion, it's been very well received.
And I recommend that anyone listening, go check that out 'cause Karin is, as you can already tell from this conversation and the previous one, amazing at what she does. And I thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. It's always a pleasure and super informative and I cannot wait to see what you do next, Karin.
Oh .
Thanks Céline, I appreciate it. I'd love to come back and tell you about it.
Anytime, you are always welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you.
[Céline] Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.
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