While speaking through a webcam might be new to much of the world, to my guest Karin Reed, CEO and Chief Confidence Creator of Speaker Dynamics, it’s been years in the making. Karin has been teaching business professionals how to be effective on-camera communicators for nearly a decade. In this episode, Karin and I talk about how to be a better communicator on camera, and how to lead effectively through the lens.
Karin and her team have been the chosen training partners for some of the world’s most recognized companies and most respected academic institutions in the world – from Nike to Lenovo, from Duke University to the Graduate School of Business at Stanford. Karin translated her experience as an Emmy-award-winning broadcast journalist and on-camera spokesperson into a methodology called the MVPs of On-Camera Success™.
Her first book, “On-Camera Coach: Tools and Techniques for Business Professionals in a Video-Driven World“, was a #1 Hot New Release in Business Communications on Amazon in 2017. Her second book, “Suddenly Virtual: Making Remote Meetings Work” debuts on March 9 and is written with Dr. Joseph Allen, one of the foremost thought leaders in meeting science. It’s designed to provide research-based best practices for making the most of virtual meetings with video at their core.
During our conversation, Karin shares some key insights relative to virtual meeting success.
She advises that everyone should pay close attention to their personal production value (i.e.how they look on camera). She says being prepared with crisp audio and good quality video can show great leadership and respect to your team.
Being intentional about keeping people engaged can bring you success in virtual meetings, but to do this you have to recognize the camera as the conduit to your conversation partner and treat it as the person you’re talking to.
However, this requires not watching yourself on screen and hiding self-view in order to engage with the camera lens. The most draining aspect of being on camera is what she calls “surface acting” where you have to appear to be engaged, which is why everyone has felt “Zoom fatigue” at some point in the last year
The science behind all this, as well as the techniques to overcome challenges in remote meetings which can be applied to every situation, are discussed in her new book. With the crisis being a “blessing” to her business, Karin shares her process of scaling up, to help more people suddenly transition to virtual meetings.
Access her new book: “Suddenly Virtual: Making Remote Meetings Work”
Find out more about Karin on her website: www.SpeakerDynamics.com
Connect with her on LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/company/speaker-dynamics
Twitter: https://twitter.com/SpeakerDynamics
- [Celine] I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times.
- Thank you for joining me today. We are here with Karin Reed, who is the CEO and chief Confidence Creator of Speaker Dynamics, a Corporate Communications Training firm featured in Forbes. While speaking through a webcam might be new to much of the world, thank you Corona virus, Karin has been teaching business professionals how to be effective on camera communicators for nearly a decade. Welcome Karin, I'm really excited to talk to you.
- Celine. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
- Oh, it's a pleasure. I mean, I think this is a very important conversation in general right now, because so much of our communication is on camera and is virtual. So, I'm really happy to be able to talk to you about your experience and where you think the future of this is going as well.
- Yeah, and the really cool thing is, I can be in Raleigh, North Carolina, you can be in Toronto but it's like we're in the same room together.
- Absolutely, I know. Great. Your room has a very nice setup in the background so, I'm a little bit jealous of that.
- I am loving your bookcase. I'd probably shift your angle just a little bit. If you allow me to tweak your set, but, you know, honestly if I would show up looking a mess that would be really off-brand.
- I appreciate that. So I like to start with a sort of a big, broad question that is, when you hear the idea of Leading through Crisis or Leading in Challenging Times, what does that mean to you? Or what is your sort of experience and lens on that concept?
- So, I would say that the crisis that I am most familiar with that truly was a crisis also was a blessing as well because oddly enough, my business found product/market fit in the middle of a pandemic. So, just to give you a little bit of background, I've been teaching Video Communication Skills for almost 10 years. And typically, I was teaching maybe like the executive leadership team, people who would be like de facto spokespeople for their businesses, but when coronavirus hit and everything shut down and everybody migrated to platforms like the one we're on right now and all the other ones that are out there, suddenly, on-camera Communication Skills became mission critical not just for the executive leadership team, but for everyone.
- So,
- Absolutely. in my business, it went from like training the ELT to training the entire enterprise and my team was not necessarily situated to scale. So I had to figure out a way to drink from the fire hose of demand and determine a way forward, where I was not completely losing my mind, but still helping as many people as I possibly could. Given the incredible need for just know how and how to be better on camera.
- So, I love that you have a very, this is not just a... here's my thoughts on Leadership in Challenging Times, but you have a very specific story of the last year where you were put in a situation to lead through. And...
- Yes, I have other people through the lens. So it was gratifying to be in that situation but also scary and confusing. And, I feel like as an entrepreneur, you're constantly facing this learning curve that is very steep. And I had yet another learning curve that was really steep, but we ended up finding a couple of different ways to scale. I increased the number of folks on my team but also I knew I needed some sort of automated option that was going to help us to be able to train around 800 people on how to be better on camera communicators. But having the book, which is coming out March 9th, Suddenly Virtual: Making Remote Meetings Work, was also a way of amplifying the message. Because my co-author is one of the foremost Thought Leaders of Meeting Mcience. His name is Dr. Joseph Allen, and we had done a webinar the first week of March of 2020 for Logitech because we were both subject matter experts. So, think about where you were the first week of March of last year. You kinda heard rumblings of something called Corona virus. Well, that webinar was focused on the Modern Meeting and what was gonna happen to meetings over the next, three, five, 10 years. And we postulated that a lot of them were gonna be held using these video collaboration tools. Well, a week later, the world's shut down. Like 1.5 billion people globally were told to stay at home. And so all the things that we predicted would happen within a couple of well three to five to 10 years happened within a couple of weeks. And there was this like 20 times increase in the number of video calls that were being made. And to suddenly, everybody was having to communicate through the webcam. So, I went off in one direction and tried to help all these clients, both old and new, to do this better. He went off in the other direction. He was helping people to be able to make these virtual meetings effective and productive. And a couple of months later we came back together and realized that we're both working on the same problem. And said, "Hey, you know, it'd be great if we could figure out some way to get the message out to more folks about how to do this better." So, he had been doing all this research, I had all this real world application, so we brought that together to create Suddenly Virtual so that this data-based insights that you can actually apply tomorrow. It's very practical. There is some theory, but we wanted to make sure that people could use it almost like a workbook and then they could figure out a path forward.
- I love that because in the work that I do, I have like everyone, my clients went virtual fast. So, I've been talking about remote leadership for years and part of that is usually when you're running remote teams and you're going that way. You have a plan in place. You have a six month or a year long plan to transition to a partially or fully remote team and learn how to lead in that way. So, under not 2020 rules, the way that you step into that as very different. But when you're thrown into it and you're thrown in the deep end that this is, we are now in a position where we have to lead remotely and now we're running meetings remotely, even just the we're gonna take all the meetings we would normally do that are on our calendar and do them on video, was a terrible approach. And it happened all the time.
- Of course.
- So...
- Yeah, and you talk about zoom fatigue. Well, yeah, I mean, that makes sense because people didn't understand that an hour spent on zoom is not equivalent to an hour spent in a conference room. It requires so much more energy and what you call emotional labor which means the amount of work that you have to put in to conduct yourself in a meeting. One of the most draining aspects of being on camera is something called surface acting where you have to appear to be engaged and that can really take its toll. And also what happened to, I'm sure you saw it Celine is that people would schedule meetings back to back to back to back. And there was no time to task switch or to get real work done. And so people were extending their days out to, gosh, 10 hours, 12 hours in some cases and just, yeah, productivity, just sore but people were burning themselves out terribly. So I think at this point, I'm glad that the book is coming out at the time it is, because I think that there's more of a strategic approach that's being sought or being implemented. And we wanted it to go beyond just gut-feel. We wanted people to be able to read it and be like, "Oh, okay, there's science behind this. Okay, let's try this and see how it works for us." And kind of have a way to apply the steps described in the book to their own situation.
- I think it's brilliant because like I've... so what you just said around surface acting, I've been saying the word, the language that I use not having researched it just from what I've experienced is that this is very performative when you're on camera on zoom, it's very performative. And that's exhausting 'cause you can't just be, if you're in a room with people, not everyone is looking at you, you don't feel like eyes are on, you can do other things so you're not engaged in the same way.
- Right. So what you said about surface acting is great. Language that has research behind it that you have, I'm assuming have some tactics and tips for, That allow what I've been saying is a gut feel, to be real changeable and inaction.
- This happened to me all the time Celine. So when we wrote our book together what we did is we assigned who was gonna be the lead author for each chapter. So, he would go off and write his sciency stuff, I would go off and write my real-world application stuff, And then we would go back in and add content to each other's chapters. And so what would happen with his is he would give the science and I'd say, "Oh and I saw this happen with my client, da da da dah." So I called myself his color commentator. And then he would go into my chapters, and I would say what was going on in my experiences with my clients, and he'd say, "And this is the reason why you're seeing this." And so it was really just such a learning experience for both of us I would guess, as we were writing the book And a couple of quick tips about the whole surface acting...
- Please.
- I suggest to my clients. One of the most wonderful techniques and tools that they have on zoom is you can hide self view. So if you go in the upper right-hand corner on your zoom box, you get three little dots that pop up. If you click on that, it'll give you the option to make yourself disappear. Because that's one of the big barriers to your effective communication on video is whenever we see ourselves on the screen, it can be disconcerting and it can be distracting because, when have you ever seen yourself communicate in real time? Never. But now you are. And sometimes we're so fixated on monitoring our own performance that we lose what is the most critical aspect of being effective on camera, which is our authenticity.
- Right
- So, in order to get out of your own head, take yourself off the screen and out of the equation. And that way you can get back to being the communicator that you are in person.
- That reminds me of, if you've ever done a talk and you go back and you look at still photographs of you on stage and 98% of them, you're making a strange face. If you were watching yourself do those moments, you would never step on a stage 'cause it's horrifying.
- That's so true.
- And it's that reminder that that's not what anyone else is experiencing 'cause they're not watching this. Like they're not, they're watching the whole experience of everything, not these brief moments that you're catching. when you look at a still photograph or yourself on camera in a conversation.
- And we're also hypercritical over our physical selves.
- Of course.
- We all are our own worst critics and we see things nobody else sees. So for example, I was working with a client this was several years ago and I was doing on camera training for, in studio work. So, for that kind of work I always do like a baseline presentation at the beginning, and then I teach the best practices, and then we do like a post training video. And we're watching her post training video. My back was to her. And she had made huge strides. She had really improved. I was so excited and I turned around and I said, "What did you think?" And she said "My right eyebrow is higher than my left eyebrow." I was like, "What are you talking about? No one notices that." But she did. And that was where her focus was. So recognize that even when you do watch yourself on screen it's not what people are seeing, that you were fixated on. But I even do it myself. I had to recently record a series of videos and I'm watching myself thinking, "Man I wish I did these 10 years ago I would have less wrinkles." So, even somebody who's been on camera for, gosh, my entire adult life, I still don't like watching myself or listening to myself whenever I'm recorded.
- Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that because I think that people are often under the illusion that their experience is unique to them in this regard.
- For sure. Yeah, it's not, its radically universal.
- Yes. There're number of actors performers who hate watching themselves on video That's their job and they're like, "You cannot pay me to watch my own movie. You cannot pay me to watch a voiceover or listen to a voiceover I've done." I hate my record. Because we all have that. We all have that experience of hyper being hypercritical and what our experience being in our head is very different than outside. It doesn't mean it's just different.
- Yeah, I always mentioned, if you are old enough you might've had an answering machine or at least your voicemail message. And probably the first time you heard it, you were like "I don't sound like that." And the bottom line is you probably do sound like that but it feels, it sounds different to your ears than what you hear inside your head. And it's really uncomfortable. You just, the thing is like the more you do it the more comfortable you become with it. And because I've been talking through a camera for many decades, I'm unphased by it. Like if you would meet me in person, Celine I would be the same person that you're seeing right now. But it's a matter of recognizing that the camera is the conduit to your conversation partner. So if you treat that camera as your person you're talking to and you pour your energy through it, it's gonna feel more comfortable to you but that requires you not to watch yourself on the screen, but actually to engage with the camera lens.
- Yes, yeah. I think that, so, this is a very technical question but you've just made me very curious about something. So, I have had the experience of being on camera, but like in a conversation like this with someone who looked very directly into, I'm going to do it as an example right now, they looked directly into the camera lens when they were talking, which in terms of thinking they're looking at you is very effective, but it felt very disconnected at the same time, because...
- To you.
- Me...
- Interesting Okay, as the recipient.
- Though, yeah.
- Yes.
- Okay.
- So, they're looking directly into, and this was and I'm curious, and this is not right or wrong. This is genuine, genuine curiosity. They had very clearly been taught to interact with the camera lens which is a great thing I recognize that. But something wasn't translating to actually connecting to me on the other side of the camera.
- That's interesting. Do they diagnose?
- Yeah. That's why I'm asking. This is when I was like this is a super tactical question.
- Right, no, it is true.
- And I'm really curious.
- Right so, the typical advice is, if you want to speak with impact then you should be directing the majority of your focus to the camera lens like you're experiencing it right now. To me it's almost like second nature. When you are not speaking, then by all means, look at the screen and read the body language of the person who is talking. So, if that person was not appearing to connect with you and appear disconnected, something tells me that they were told, look at the camera lens but they weren't in the proper mental mindset. So the proper mental mindset is, the camera represents a person you're having a conversation with that person. only a couple of feet away, like across the dinner table. And you need to be in that conversation space in order to come across as authentic. Because otherwise, if you're just looking at the lens and you were just basically like you're looking at the lens, but you're not really connecting, you lose all of that expressiveness like I'm trying to kinda model it right now. Like if I were just talking to no one. So, the authenticity the animation comes from changing your mental mindset. And if you haven't done that, that's when the eye contact will just appear to be contrived. You think that makes sense? Now I'm really curious.
- No, no, no it does. And I appreciate you modeling that because, it's when you can see it in action it becomes a lot easier to recognize, right. And to be like, Oh yes, that's what I experienced. And my guess is that it comes with practice and working with someone like you who knows these things and can share here's why this matters and here's how you do this.
- Well, it's so funny Celine because people are always like, "You're so polished on camera." I'm like, "I'm really not. I think I'm just myself." And that's what resonates with people. And I think that's a good lesson to learn. If you try to be a performer you're trying to do the wrong thing. You just want to have a conversation with somebody who is a little bit harder to see in this environment. But the one thing I would mention is, you don't want to be held captive by the camera either because that's not how we engage with people whenever we're talking to them face to face We look away. If we wouldn't we'd be staring at them the entire time and boring a hole in their brains, and that makes them feel uncomfortable. So you have to interact with the camera lens the way you would with somebody face to face, which means that, yeah maybe you begin looking into the camera and then you're always looking away thinking about what you're doing next and you come back to them. So, it's really the mental mindset which you pinpointed is so critical. And I hope that people take that away from this podcast more than anything else.
- And I love that you mentioned looking away 'cause that is one of my things. My eyes are always wandering and I've had people say that it's much more effective if you just look directly at the camera. And I'm like, this is not how I talk to anyone ever. I'm constantly, I'm expressive. I'm looking away. I can't look at someone's face and think it really is like, I would, my eyes are wandering. So it is about having it feel natural and not performative. Having it not be the screen act, the acting that happens otherwise.
- Right, and that's, what's so frustrating when people are like, "You're such a good actor." I'm like, "I'm I really? I'm really not." I'm gonna be myself, but a couple of tricks that your listeners and viewers can use is, take a picture of a family member or friend and put it beside your camera lens just to remind yourself that you're talking to a person because that disconnection is a result of people just feeling like they're talking to no one. And it's so interesting too Celine at the beginning of any of my workshops or webinars. I always ask the audience the same question. Whenever you're talking through a webcam how many people do you think you're talking to? Do you think you're talking to no one, an infinite number? Depends on the size of the meeting or one person. And everybody answers differently which is crazy if you think about it. So you have the range of no one to an infinite number. And the appropriate answer would be one person because no matter how many people are on a call they all feel like you're talking just to them. And I kinda have experienced this even in TV news whenever I was an anchor, I would go into the grocery store. And people would come up to me and be like, "Karin Reed, how are you? How are your kids?" They would talk to me like I was a close personal friend. And you could think that that's odd or you can consider it really kind of interesting because you go into their homes on an almost daily basis in a very personal sort of way. So you create this very intimate connection with your viewers and no matter how many people are out there and it's important to remember that. Yeah.
- So again, super tactical question. I love this cause you're, I wanted to ask 500 things. I'm gonna ask this. So, if you are, is there a difference, you had suggested that you could put up like a picture of a loved one by your camera when you're, so that it's like you're talking to someone directly. So, it's I'm looking at my camera, there's a picture here. I'm talking to this person. It feels more intimate and connected,
- Right?
- That makes sense. Is that different if you're in a zoom meeting with 40 people and you get on camera do you still wanna have that person there? Is it different if you're prerecording a training? Is it different if you're in a, one-on-one like what I can...
- There's an audience of one Celine no matter how many people are on that meeting at all everyone feels like you're talking just to them. So, what I do recommend though is visualizing your viewer. Which means visualize a representative of your audience. So, because that makes a big difference in how you engage. If your audience is made up of your friends and you're having a zoom happy hour, that's very different. And if you are talking to your board of directors, So, you have to think about a representative of that specific audience and then talk to him or her through the camera lens.
- Yeah. I appreciate that. I think that is very helpful 'cause I do think that people get stuck in the details of things like that.
- For sure.
- I wanna go back to something you said at the beginning which was that, when this madness hit in March of last year, that you had the fortune 'cause it really is fortune.
- Oh, for sure.
- Being in a position of everyone suddenly saying, "Hi Karin, we need your help with stuff."
- Yes, crisis blessing.
- Do you have anything that we need to know?
- Yes.
- You have many things that we need help with. And I'm curious how you lead your team through that, what you learned from that experience. And then what, if you looking back, that you would say, I wouldn't do it that way again, maybe.
- Probably the biggest mistake I made is my first client. I created a package for them that was incredibly comprehensive and incredibly intensive. And I had myself booked out until December 22nd. Literally, I could just have this one client and then gosh, like the 20 others came behind and I'm like, Oh my gosh! So literally my weeks, I worked practically nonstop. And so I learned that I have to make sense in the decisions that I make relative to capacity. I learned that I needed to be better at teaching others how to amplify what we do. So, when I brought people on, I think I became better hopefully at being a mentor to those who are coming into the organization so that they could do good work as well. We don't have a big team, but that's by design. I am very connected to quality control. So the folks who come on, they I'm looking for a variety of characteristics as well as background. So, there are a huge number of people who can kind of fit that mold. And so I I think it really stretched me to be much more attuned to my management style and also to standardize because so much of what I did was up here. And if you are going to scale, it can't stay in your head you've got to get it out there. So, that was a big lesson that I learned and have lots of growing pains along the way. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. I think that it's very, I think a lot of leaders whether they are in large or small organizations by design or not, I think that's really valuable for them to hear because I think a lot of them had very similar experiences.
- Well, and I think that you have an expectation that everybody knows everything that you know and that's not okay. And so, I hope that I got better at explaining things and just not making the mistakes of omission and just helping to empower them to be as great as I know they are and could have been.
- Yeah, I appreciate that. I wanna ask a question about where you think, what leaders can do as we continue,.. So I think, let me start by saying this. Let me start by stating my assumption. I think that we are going to be spending a lot more time on camera doing virtual meetings in the next iteration of whatever work looks like. I don't think we're going back to the full-time in-person anything. I think it's a hybrid model going forward and I think that's great. So my starting assumption, I wanna be
- Okay, yes I think your assumption is spot on. I actually just wrote an article for Training Industry Magazine about managing the Hybrid Meeting. So, all of the trends indicate that this is indeed going to be the case because there are a lot of reasons why. First of all, there are gonna be folks who will wanna come back to the brick and mortar office.
- Absolutely.
- They'll be so excited about that. But there also gonna be quite a few who are like, you know what, this remote work is kind of working for me and my productivity didn't dip, so they can make the case for why they'd want to at least be home some of the time. So, that is going to require a whole different way of thinking about work. It's gonna be, work is what we do it's not where we go. So, with that in mind, you're in this hybrid model which is going to have to connect all of these people working in what we're calling network. So Joe and I are, Dr. Allen I call him Joe, we can call him Dr. Joe. So we were talking about, the big challenge that's gonna be happening soon is, how do you make communication flow in a hybrid meeting? Because the vision is you get three people in a conference room in this location. You've got three people in a conference room in this location. You've got like maybe five people who are showing up in the meeting on their individual webcams. That is super challenging because you've got a bunch of different, I will call them networks. So the three people in one location, that's a network three people in the other location, that's a network. And then those who are all appearing on the screen that's their own network. And so as a leader, you're gonna have to figure out how to ensure that all of the communication flows to these three networks. So that is gonna to require some really proactive facilitation. Also a real effort to pull out even participation. Because there's gonna be a lot of bias. Whenever bias towards, you know, people who are in the same room with you, I've experienced it myself. When I've taught hybrid classes, I always felt like one group or the other was getting short shrift. So maybe it was the people who are joining virtually. Maybe it was the people who are in person. It's very difficult to play to all stakeholders. So, it's incumbent upon organizations to start training their people to be better facilitators of that sort of meeting and also to be really cognizant of, okay, what kind of technology do we need? What sort of settings do we need in the office to allow for all these folks to be able to talk to each other efficiently? How do you make sure that you don't have silos of communication or like side meetings that occur? Because the three people over here they could have their own little meeting. This group can have their own meeting and they don't talk to each other at all. So, the leader is gonna have to get them to talk to each other. So there there's all sorts of uncharted territory that is just on the horizon that we're gonna have to figure out how to navigate.
- So, keep it 'cause I agree with you. I think that is definitely the future of where this is going. It's why I was like, let me state my assumption upfront 'cause that's what I'm starting from. So, as people are sort of starting to navigate this, as leaders are facing this, is like this is our real situation this is what we're gonna be doing. Do you have any starting tips or starting things that they can even start to think about to help navigate the murkiness? Because there's no one solution right now I recognize that, but what should they be thinking of? Is there anything they can do as they start this process?
- Absolutely. Well I think that first of all, it's acknowledging that is likely to happen because if you're sitting here thinking, oh business is gonna go back to the way it was in 2019, that's not gonna be the case. So, be prepared for change and be willing to adapt. I would say also put some careful consideration into standardizing the equipment so those who choose to work from home can do so effectively. That has been kind of all over the board. There are some companies that have said, okay, everybody's getting an excellent external webcam and a headset. So, you have crisp audio and you have a great image quality. Those folks recognize that having good what I call personal production value, is important because it's not a matter of vanity, it's a matter of being respectful of the people you're in conversation with because if you have your face in shadow, if your audio is all crackly, that's like forcing somebody to have a phone conversation with you when the connection is bad. It's annoying and it's irritating. So ensuring that all of your people show up looking and sounding great is really important. Then I'd also suggest start training up your leaders so that they know how to manage that sort of meaning. Get them some help. And of course you can buy our book "Suddenly Virtual" which we'll talk about Hybrid Meetings as well as all these Virtual Meetings and combination of best practices with new best practices or old best practices, a new best practice.
- Thank you, I appreciate that. And...
- Thanks for letting me plug it.
- No, Oh my gosh! Are you kidding? I wanna make sure we plug it again. It's you said it's coming out on March...
- March 9th..
- 9th okay good, I was gonna say 9th...
- Available anywhere you find books.
- I hope that all of the listeners and viewers of this will check it out because I think it's a really, I think especially for leaders, especially if you're dealing with team dynamics and as everyone is right now dealing with this hybrid model, even if it's temporarily which I don't think it is, but even as a temporary measure, I think that this book is gonna be wildly helpful for everyone who is leading teams and wants to lead teams. So, I really recommend that they get a copy of it. And I will say, as you were saying, being facing shadow, as the light has changed my room has gotten so dark. So, I am putting you through what you were saying, people shouldn't be doing. So thank you.
- I can facial expressions Celine. No, you were fine. But it does help to have an external light source that you can kind of dial up and down. So that's one of the tricks that I have.
- Yep, I have my external light sources connected to my external camera and I cannot do it while we're on camera. So, I was like
- Oh no.
- Tips for me for next time, see, this is learning for me also. I'll figure something better out for next time. Karin, I wanna thank you for your time. And before we wrap up, I just wanna ask is there anything that you want to leave a sort of a final and the answer can be, no, you don't have to say it, you don't have to have anything. But is there anything you wanna emphasize or leave as sort of a final thought for people who might be walking away from this conversation with all of your brilliance in their brain?
- Well, you were very kind, thank you. But I think what I would say to leaders is please set a good example for your folks. Because what Dr. Allen found is that having a webcam on in virtual meetings is one of the biggest indicators of whether that meeting is going to be effective or not. So, if you as a leader, turn the webcam on and spend a little time just taking a look at how you're showing up on the screen and being sure that you have good audio, that is going to set the standard for your organization.
- I have so many more questions, but I will refrain for the time being, I think that's, I'm so curious about the leaders who are not putting their webcams on who are running meetings in this way. So, hence why I'm like, oh, I have so many questions but I think that's really important for people to keep in mind and thank you for sharing that. And so in our show notes, we will have a link to Karin's website and her book comes out on March 9th. So, everyone should be pre-ordering that and getting copies of that. And Karin, I wanna thank you very much for coming and speaking with me about this today. It's been really lovely getting to know you and to hear your lens on this, and I really appreciate your openness to sharing and the experience that you bring to this conversation. It's really valuable for everyone who is listening and anyone who is running a business or leading in any way right now. So thank you.
- Celine thank you, it has been my pleasure.
- [Celine] Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.