Karen Wright is the Founder of Parachute Executive Coaching and a recent recipient of a Lifetime Achievement Award for her contributions to the coaching profession. She is also the author of “The Accidental Alpha Woman: The Guide to Thriving When Life Feels Overwhelming.” In this episode, we talked about what leaders can do when they get overwhelmed, especially during challenging times, and discussed the often unrecognized signs of burnout in female leaders.
Karen started her company in 1996 and has helped top business leaders and teams from Fortune 500 companies to manage change, increase productivity and achieve success. Featured in the media several times, she is a strategic advisor to startup “Animo” which aims to help employees understand and manage their well-being using Artificial Intelligence.
Karen is a Master Certified Coach (MCC) and a past Board member and founder of the Toronto Chapter for the International Coaching Federation. Karen has an MBA in Marketing from the Ivey School and a bachelor’s degree in Economics from Western University.
Based on her personal and coaching experience, Karen says suffering from burnout most likely happens to “Accidental Alpha women” with the feeling of regular resentment as the first clue. Compared to the “non-accidental” Alpha women who know this is the kind of leadership they want from the get-go, the Accidental Alpha women feel disconnected with tension and frustration around them.
Karen says in order for these women to thrive, the first step is to recognize their reality and accept that delegation and asking for help is part of leadership. She says women need to become comfortable with admitting that they are overwhelmed and asking for specific support.
She emphasizes that self-leadership is the key to leading with more clarity. She also mentions the importance of planning for the worst scenarios while detaching from the outcome in order to transition into a more rewarding life and career.
Access her book: “The Accidental Alpha Woman: The Guide to Thriving When Life Feels Overwhelming”
Find out more about Karen on her website: https://www.parachuteexecutivecoaching.com/
Connect with her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenwrightcoach/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/karenwrightcoach
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karenwrightcoach/ and https://www.instagram.com/accidentalalphawoman/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/KWrightcoach
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times.Welcome.Today, I am joined by Karen Wright, who is an executive coach and author of The Accidental Alpha Woman The Guide to Thriving When Life Feels Overwhelming. Karen, thank you for joining me today.
- I'm thrilled to be here. Nice to see you.
- It's nice to see you, too. This is really exciting. I've known Karen for a couple of years and she's brilliant and has this new book out that I'm super excited to hear more about. And it lines up really well with the theme of leading through crisis and leading in challenging times, and especially for women. So I appreciate you coming and being open to talking about leadership, Well leadership is what I've been doing professionally for a really long time. And I think probably getting this book out of my head and into the world and thinking through the reasons why I felt it was important, I think it's allowed me to kind of expand my view of leadership,
maybe reframe it a little bit. So that's been fun. So I'm happy to be here and talk about it. So I'm going to say this is not where I would normally start but I want to ask the question, how has it allowed you to reframe your lens on leadership?
- I think I have had a pretty traditional view of leadership that you leader is out in front and leader is leading a thing. And what I think what I got clearer on I mean, we've heard for years about leadership of self is the first kind of tenet of leadership. I don't know that I really got that. And certainly, as I as I formulated my thinking around the book and started
really looking at some of the people that I wanted to talk about, leadership of self is is number one. And so I think I've gone way deeper on that than I probably had before or even maybe thought was necessary before.
- I think that's I think that's really applicable when we talk about leading through challenging times, because if you can't lead yourself first
and you you're not being resilient and you're not keeping a lens on that,
then you're leading other people is not going to be effective
for them or for you.
- I totally agree, and even if it feels like it might be effective, kind of sort of in the short term, I think it falls apart. And I know in my own case, when I think about the business that I've been leading, I'm leading
it better now than I was. And I can feel the difference. And some of the people on my team feel the difference. I'm leading as a parent differently for having confronted some of the things that I needed to confront and solve for some of the things I need to solve. And so so I am really considering myself as a leader differently and more
broadly than maybe I did at one point.
- I think that's a powerful thing. I think that's a really powerful
thing to step into things.
- But I also think it has to do with the accidental nature of what I talk
about, because I venture that I have been an accidental alpha in a great many situations for much of my life without really owning the fact that I could shift towards being more intentional and toward being more conscious and intentional leader.
- So I want to explore the idea whenyou you know, for people who are watching or listening, when they hear accidental alpha, what does that what
is that for you? What does that mean to you?
- Well, the thing that's really interesting is that when I first saw I love a good alliteration on any day of the week and need to write all word nerds unite.
-Yes.
- And when I was in a personal situation, I was struggling and I was trying to kind of figure out how to deal with it. And somewhere along the way, I coined this phrase that I was an accidental alpha. And what for me at the time it meant was that I was having to handle more things and take leadership on more things than I had envisioned having to do. And all of this felt like it happened in a very haphazard and and unplanned way. And and then as soon as I started talking about this idea of accidental alpha,
what I discovered was that almost every woman I mentioned it to had a moment of resonance, a moment of recognition. Oh, that's me. Oh, my gosh. I totally get that. Oh, you have to talk about that. I'm so I want to meet more people who are that. And so so the idea I mean, as I as I talk about it, when I when I kind of formed it into the thing that became the book,
An Accidental Alpha is a woman who is handling more than she had
anticipated having to handle. It wasn't the plan. And so for me, it's the accidental part isn't as much the problem as the disconnect, the tension in the fact that this was unplanned. This was not how I envisioned my life happening. I didn't sign up for this.This is wrong. Shouldn't be happening to me. All of these things.Right.So this resentment and tension around hang
on this I didn't have a choice about this. If if you had asked me, I wouldn't have chosen all these things. So that that's for me where
the accidental piece. Whereas I mean, you and I both know women who are crushing it out there in the world, totally intentional. Right? Decided from the get go, this is who they're going to be and how they were going to do it. And they set themselves up with support systems. Very intentional. So that's for me. That's how I distinguish the two.
- I appreciate that distinction. It's interesting because it makes me think of if we compare, I'm going to take it out of women for one second. If we compare men to women, I think men are often set up with that as the that's what they're aiming for from the get go. So they set up those systems. They set up the foundations that helps support them in moving that forward as it moves forward. And I think that that it's. I'd be more shocked if there were any men who felt like, oh, I'm an accidental alpha man, then I can... where as I can totally see it for women because I think that. We don't we don't always necessarily see that future for ourselves in that way
- well, of being generationally, most of us at this age and stage have not been encouraged that direction. I mean, with regard to men, I would venture that maybe there aren't a lot of accidental ones, at least not that you and I can see, but I'm certain there are quite a number of reluctant ones.
- Yes.Oh, yes.
- And in fact, I would say that the conventional support structures that allow men to be in alpha kinds of roles and situations, more of those sorts of support structures are established. And for as I think for women, we have to find them and create them maybe differently than men are used to have to doing. And thankfully, I think this is changing, although this past year says maybe not quite so much and maybe not quite as fast as we'd like.
- Yeah, I think that's a really valid point is that that I think also the support structures for men historically have been more societally acceptable. So they're just that's the default of how things work.So it's that much easier. Whereas a woman requiring those support structures to step forward into that, that was different. That was not how things worked. Great.
- I think you're right.
- So I'm I have a thousand questions I want to ask. But before we jump off the sort of male female thing from a from what can. An accidental alpha woman, learn what lessons are there for women inside of how men have operated in this in this way. In your opinion, I get this is not necessarily the mountains of research to back it up, but from your firm. I appreciate that. But from your experience of writing this book, what are there lessons that women can learn, especially because a lot of these accidental alpha women are presumably leading something?
- Well, you know, if you think of accidental alpha oftentimes as having a role in a household solo primary earner, then, yes, accidental alpha oftentimes is exists in a woman who is leading something somewhere outside the home. But I would say that one of the distinctions, one of the differences, behavioral differences would be the idea of saying no and or asking for help. So I think most people who own an alpha role comfortably bare crystal clear what their lane is. And they don't try to take on they don't boil the ocean. They're not taking on other people's stuff. They're not. This just doesn't sound charitable. And I don't mean it just to not sound nice. But but the idea of they're not they're not as helpful to others. I think they're helpful within their within their lane. Right. Again, within their realm. So I think the idea of saying no or not jumping in to help and take on other people's stuff and being willing to delegate, to outsource to to ask for help. Really the interesting thing is that as an alpha delegating isn't really seen as asking for help. Whereas I think women oftentimes perceive it that way, that I can't handle this if I'm outsourcing, if I'm delegating, it's because I can't handle it and I have to ask for help as opposed to who's better doing this, because maybe me is not the right answer in all the cases.
- Mm hmm. And when I think of that in terms of challenging times, crises, whatever, whatever language you want to use around that, it makes me think immediately that I any leader. In a challenging time, I think, feels a responsibility to have all the answers and to be the go to person. I think if you are an accidental alpha woman, that responsibility feels much heavier because you don't have the you're not naturally inclined to ask for help or to outsource or to get that to bring people in. So you have even more of the weight of let me solve all the problems and to own it all, then I think any leader who feels that responsibility does in those moments.
- I agree. I think we are all conventionally wired to and we're rewarded for having the answers for our whole lives. So that's problem one, right?
- Yes.
- The moment we step into school or whatever. So that's problem one right there. And and oftentimes in my coaching practice, when I'm working with someone who has risen up a level or two, that's one of the things we have to unpack is you are no longer going to be rewarded for knowing all the answers, for having all the answers. I think in the case of women, the exacerbating factor is our reluctance to stress other people too much or or hand off too many things for fear of overloading other people with the care giving kind of demeanor that says, you know what, they're already busy. I won't bother them, I'll keep it. Which is why we've come to that as being the right answer. I'm not really sure. But that's, I think, one of the exacerbating problems.
- And I think it's when we value and you hear with little girls again, going back to childhood, when you value the, quote, nurturing side of women and that's their value. They're the nice girl. They don't bother people. And it happens really, really young. Then, of course, women think that's that's my role.
- Right, I know, and as I say, I I think we can all agree that we've made progress and we can see examples of situations where that's maybe not the primary way women are evaluated, but it's still there. And I think mostly it's they are inside our heads and us getting past it is a great first step.
- One hundred percent and. That's not always the hardest. It's like the self leadership, right? Isn't that sometimes the hardest part is to start with the, of course, recognition and acknowledgement that, oh, this is this is in my head, right?
- Yeah. Oh, it's a story I'm telling myself oh, I could choose this. Oh,
- wait, wait, wait. If I choose something else, what does that what happens then? Yeah, I know. I know. Exactly. So wait a minute. There are options for how I create value in the world. Maybe that's only one of the options.
- Yeah, it's it's a really interesting it's really interesting to explore that those choices and what that looks like. And I think for women, especially because there's so many. There's just a right, there's that. Listen, I fundamentally do not believe in right or wrong, I don't think that there's a right and wrong way to do things. I think there's lots of different ways and they'll work and the work best for different people. But I think we are so ingrained in thinking there's a right or wrong that it's like if you if this is not right, then what else is the right thing to do becomes the option we all start looking for.
- Well, or or maybe. And we are very wired for what we think other people are going to think,
- of course.
- And so I've been in an executive women's environments where there's there seems to be an expectation that women will say, yes, my career is important. Yes. You know, yes, I'll make choices in favor of my career and then push comes to shove and they make a choice in favor of family and feel terrible about it because they feel like they've let down the side. Whereas I think we're in a world increasingly in a world where maybe it's OK if we choose the one that people don't expect us to choose and or maybe we can build up the resilience and the self-esteem to to handle the people who don't agree.
- Because I think with the flip side of what you said is also true, I have a friend who runs a very successful business and has a toddler, smallish child, a young child at home. And from the time that she was born, they have had a nanny. And that was a non-negotiable for her because her best she has you know, she's been building her business for 20 years and she loves it. And that's where she gets her, you know, a lot of her self-esteem from not from being a mother. She loves being a mother. But that's not the driving factor of who she is. It's not her core identity. And she got tons of flack from people when she had a nanny for her child that, you know, is there all the time. And it was and that was as challenging as that feeling like, you know, it's the flip side of the coin, whereas there's judgment. If you choose your family, there's judgment if you choose your career, like, why? Why are we doing that?
- Well, but also we've we've ramped up the expectations all the way across the board. And I wish I hadthe statistic in front of me. There was a piece of research that came out that said that women today who have jobs inside the home are actually spending more time with their children than women in the fifties who stayed home.
- I heard that. Oh,
- I know, so we've set this crazy expectation of ourselves that we can do it all and that not only that we can, but we ought to try that.It's that way of doing anything less than all. Whatever all is, is is the thing we should be setting ourselves to do. And I don't I mean, I'd love to know the moment in time when that that whole value system kind of shifted. But I mean, I'm a big believer in it takes a village idea. And if you have the wherewithal to get help, I mean, I was on a call earlier today with a woman who is expecting her second child and she has a very demanding job, very, very demanding job. And both of her parents are actively involved in their home, taking care of baby one and helping out with meals and like they're actively involved. And it's it's wonderful. It's just wonderful. So, you know, whether it's family, whether it's hired support, whether it's neighborhood moms groups and things like, please let us get back to involving more people in our lives such that we're not shouldering every bit of every role.
- I'm curious how much of this idea that you have to do it all drives the dissonance inside of the accidental alpha woman and how she's operating in the world.
- To some degree, certainly in some cases, it's a it's a catching up problem that the reality shifted and I was ready for it and they didn't have the systems in place. So the really healthy accidental alpha would be the one that quickly says, hold on, something's different here. I need to make some changes in order to absorb this new thing that happened. And I think I think that's at least one of the problems that my circumstances changed. But they didn't change anything else. And I just tried to kind of absorb that that situation, whatever it is. So so I think the the woman who can who can read it more quickly is going to do better in the face of change to run less risk of that feeling of overwhelming burnout.
- Are there? And this might be anecdotal, if anything, I appreciate that, but are there. So if someone is hearing this and saying, oh, I think I might be I think I might be one of those accidental alpha women, that that might be me. Are there any signs or indicators that are on the way to overwhelm could let them know that maybe overwhelmed is on the way as opposed to suddenly being in that complete oh crap moment, which I think a lot of them probably end up in
- a lot. For me, the first clue is a regular feeling of resentment.
I shouldn't have to be doing this. I shouldn't have to be doing this and that. So I think if you're if if you're starting to feel that, you know, I'm already doing all of this, for God's sakes, don't don't expect me to do that, too. I mean, I'll do it because I can. And it's just quicker for me to do whatever it is. Right. So in my own case,it was I now all of a sudden have to earn all the money and I still have to plan the birthday parties and the dentist appointments and be at the parent teacher meetings and all the things. And it's like, where did I where did I let go of something when I picked up this other thing? And it's that it's that tension and resentment and frustration at like who could possibly expect me to do all of these things? That's like any any time, any time we feel a sense of kind of inner turmoil about something that's a good cause for reflection under any circumstances.
- Yeah, I think I like that, I like I appreciate that you put a feeling specifically to it resentment because. We, I think, generally are not great at labeling our feelings and we're not using that language, but we all know what that feels like. And if we recognize that happening and we use the language to describe it, then we can do something about it.
- Absolutely agree.
- So the flip side of that question is because and I want you to know that when I hear, you know, the the idea of things getting overwhelming to me, that's often challenging times, crises when things when, you know, the poop hits the fan for lack of a better word, whether it's in your own life or externally, 2020 would be a great example, great example of things getting overwhelming.
- That was maybe for sure. All your cards. Yeah.
- So when things like that happen, how can you know? Do you have any advice for women and men? I mean, listen, I'm not going to get any value out of this as well. I'm not saying it's all but specifically for women that can help them to use your language, thrive in those moments. What what something they can do. What is the counterbalance to any month of 2020 outside of January and February?
- I know, right. And by the way, one of the biggest supporters of the book is a guy who read it and just said, oh my heavens. So, you know, it is, yes, it's about women and technically for women. But not only so in the book I outline a framework and it's based on the idea that women are terrible at receiving generally we don't do well at receiving gifts, compliments, help intuitive messages from the universe, like you name it, right?
- Yeah.
- And so I worked with that word to create a framework in the first one. And in it is recognize your reality. And so the minute you feel a little dissonance, a little tension, a little something, I think it's useful to stop and say what's really going on here. Let me take a good, hard look, because I might be ignoring something. I might be seeing something, but presuming it's temporary, I'm going to go away. Right. I might be attributing an intention to somebody who maybe doesn't have that same bad intention. Right, because we never really know what's going on inside someone's head. So I think the quicker we can get a clean read a clean, objective, fact based read on what's going on. And this is the problem with twenty twenty, because our read was we weren't able to get a clean read for a little while. So I remember in March I had been traveling, I was, I was in the U.S. I was anyways so I was I was coming back after being kind of off the grid and trying to catch up and one of the coaches on my team said, you know, I think it'll all come back to normal by June. And so, you know, and I still remember that conversation because I thought, well, anybody who looked at what was going on in March and said, we'll be fine by June, they wouldn't be making a long term plan. They wouldn't be making any sort of systemic adjustments to what they were having to deal with. A lot of parents said we'll just get through to the end of the school year next year. You'll be fine. Unfortunately, not so much. And I don't know that there's anything about what's gone on this past year. The. That any of us could have done anything much different with, but I mean, and so that is a very extreme circumstance. But but as I say, to get clear on this is really happening. And this is the best information I have for the moment. So the more I can deal with this as it really is, not as I wish it was or would prefer it wasn't, then I think you're more equipped to then set yourself up, let go of something, change something, ask for help, whatever it is.
- I think that's a lesson. I think that's a wonderful starting point in many circumstances to say what's real, what's you know, one of the facts in this situation, and I think the 2020 is actually a great example. I was certainly one of those people at the beginning who was like, it's just not going to go past summer. Like, that's not a real thing. However, I also was like, I don't know that I don't have a fact that says that's true. So if this does continue past summer, what does that look like for me? And it doesn't what does that look like? Right. So I didn't and I think that's I think that's what's that's why looking at the reality of a situation is so important. I love Optimists. I am an optimist. Optimists are wonderful. However, if you're only ever planning for the best possible outcome, you're always going to be in a state of overwhelming.
- It's certainly risky. There's no question, and I think it's great to say, I hope it ends by something. But to your point, if it doesn't, here's my plan.
- Right.
- And so let's so with hope for the best and plan for the worst. Right?
- Yes. Yeah.
- And plan for the worst is the most practical thing any of us can do. A lot of people don't want to do that because it allows for the possibility that the worst might actually happen.
- Yes,
- but really, wouldn't you rather be prepared?
- Well, I yes, I definitely would. And I think that in most cases. I am a person who I believe that long term things always work out for the best. I really do believe that they work and that does not mean there's not sucky moments inside of that. And it doesn't mean that, you know, you don't have the worst. But long term, I don't truly believe that, generally speaking things. And I recognize it's a privilege lens on things like that, all of that. But I do think things tend to work out for the best. That being said, I think if you operate through life without planning for things, maybe in the short term to not go the exact way you want them to go, you do yourself a disservice and you end up in situations that you're reactive instead of responding. And I think that's a big difference. Right. Do I want to be reacting all the time, which is where overwhelmed? I think I for me personally, when I'm always reacting overwhelmed hits very quickly if I'm responding because I have some sense of what I would do in this situation, it's way less overwhelming.
- Yes, and generally, emotionally easier, it just is. But I also think that the more we attach ourselves to a particular outcome, and that's that's a pure coaching thing. Right. But if we detach ourselves from the outcome and just observe what's happening and and then exercise influence or control where we have that available, too often the big thing that's happening is that people are wanting to control something that is absolutely not theirs to control or investing emotion in getting upset about something. The person who was going to go golfing on Saturday and wakes up and it's raining and is in a bad mood all day, well, you know, we couldn't control the rain. So why attach so much emotion? Why invest so much in that? So I'm not saying not be emotional, but I am saying notice the emotions and notice where they're helping you solve.
- Yeah, it's I think it's very hard for people to understand the idea of not getting attached to the outcome when they hear that.
- Totally.
- You have I'm going to lean on your your experience coaching, if someone hears that and says, I don't know how I how do you not get attached? I don't understand that because I guarantee there's people listening who will have that similar reaction. How are is there any advice you would give them to? I don't care whether it's detached from the outcome to better recognize when they're attached to an outcome, something that helps them get out of that. I don't understand how you don't get attached to an outcome.
- There are a couple of different things at work here. So first is this comes from Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, the oldest personal development book in the world, almost. And it's the donuts what the middle in the small bit in the middle is what you can control inside of that is what you can influence, and that is things like the weather. And so my first request of clients is that they look at the thing that's going on and figure out whether it's something they can control or something they can influence, because if it is one or other of those, by all means, make a choice about investing some emotion. But then also the idea that we can choose our emotions is oftentimes a revolutionary idea. And mindfulness practice supports that. I had a fascinating conversation with my son, who was at the time about 17 or 18. And I mean, children of coaches get exposed to different ideas than regular. He was on a normal basis, but he was talking about how he'd gotten really angry about something. And I, of course, went into coach mode around, well, you know, you don't have to be angry. You can choose your emotions. And he was absolutely adamant that there was no way he could choose an emotion. And finally, his parting shot was, I can't choose whether I get angry. I get that. I can choose whether I stay angry. There we go. And so if more of us could recognize a flare of emotion and then decide whether that's where we want to stay, I think we then can handle that. We then maybe don't experience things like overwhelm quite so much.
- I think that, first of all, I'd love to talk to your son, I'm sure that he has wildly more insightful than most, you know, age as a result.n But I think that's a really good thing. That's a really good frame that you can't control if you feel a certain way, you can control if you stay feeling that way. You get to control. You can't control the reaction. You can control the response.
- Certainly.
- So I think that's I think that's really powerful and I think it's something that applies, especially in times of of challenging times. Times of crisis. Right.
- I mean, it's as simple as the people who are upset, things being closed. Well, I can't change whether things are close. I can I can control whether I contribute to the problem by making the choices about where I engage and how I interact with the world. So, yeah, there's just there just isn't any value there isn't any benefit in being upset at the way things are. I. I think that is a really important reminder for people to have and people to hear is that it doesn't serve to it doesn't serve anyone to be upset at the things about yourself, right?
- Yeah.
- I mean. Whether it's politics, whether it's the covid people who are angry that covid is still around, it's. Does what is there there's an old adage, that old adage, I've heard it from people who are in AA to be fair, so I don't know that it's an old adage, but it's the idea that it's like drinking poison to kill someone else. No.
- Yes, I love that one.
- Like, who is the who's who's feeling this? It's not covid doesn't care if you're mad at it. The closed businesses don't care if you're part of the right. So all you're doing is hurting yourself.
- I know it's like being mad at the brief at Starbucks because they won't serve you for not wearing a mask. The barista didn't make that decision. Oh, right. So you know, those poor, poor front line retail service business. Oh, my gosh. They have been putting up with such stuff. And I get I mean and I mean, the reality of what we've been through this past year is that everyone's
on a short fuse right now. We have we are out of gas. There's a principle in positive psychology around self-regulation and that we have a fixed amount of ability to control our behavior and sort of discipline ourselves and make difficult choices. And it's the reason why, for example, you don't start a diet, a budget on the same day, because you because you're you're using up all of your control over here, you won't have anything left for this. And I mean, what the world has asked of us this past year has exhausted all of our stores of self regulation. And unless we've actively worked on building our personal resilience by things like eating right and exercising and, you know, all of those sorts of things, you know, intellectually, it's understandable that people are frustrated and that frustration is showing up. It doesn't help.
- No, I think that's a I. I agree. I agree. I want to before we sort of wrap this up, I want to ask the question, is there anything that you would like to emphasize that you've said or that you want to add to what you've said for the listeners and the viewers or whether it's around the concept of accidental alpha woman and thriving when things feel overwhelming or if it's just generally leading in challenging times?
- You know, I just I just think all circumstances are better if we all try to lead with kindness, if we all just genuinely care about other humans and are mindful of the impact that we ourselves are having on those we come in contact with. I think with with just that life is a little easier and the world is a little better. So, I mean, kindness to self to start with, because I think as we've talked about women in general, accidental, Alfa's in particular, very hard on ourselves. But I think we're also just defaulting to being not very nice to other people because we're frustrated. Whereas if we just exercise that tiny little bit of extra effort to be kind and to be thoughtful or at least to be empathetic to the fact that we're kind of all struggling, we're all in this together, I think in any crisis, this or any other, I think that would be a nice place to start.
- I think that is beautifully said. I want to let all of our listeners know that you can check out Karen's book online, the website is excellent. Obviously, I always forget to say that part and that someone got on my case about it. So do the worldwide web part, dot accidental alpha woman dot com. And Karen has kindly offered to give a couple of books away to our listeners. So I'm going to come up with something fun that's going to be inserted after this to give some of those books away. Because if you're if you definitely want to get a copy of this book, it's amazing. And Karen is incredible. So I really check her out. She's pretty great.
- Thank you.
- Oh, my gosh, thank you for coming on and chatting about this, I really I appreciate your time and your expertise and your sharing. I think it's going to be I think it's wildly valuable. So thank you so much.
- I appreciate the support. I really do. Thanks for having me
- any time.
- Thanks for joining me today on the leading through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.