We are currently experiencing an employee engagement crisis (rates are at an 11-year low), and today’s guest, Julie Winkle Giulioni is the perfect person to help us address it! If you’re a people leader in the workforce, the thoughts and ideas explored here are imperative.
Gallup research shows we are experiencing an employee engagement crisis (rates are at an 11-year low).
Today's guest, Julie Winkle Giulioni is the perfect person to help us address it!
Julie is a speaker, best-selling author, and champion of workplace growth and development. In this conversation, she shares:
This conversation has something applicable to everyone. But if you're a people leader in the workforce, the thoughts and ideas explored here are imperative (especially right now).
Listen in and let us know what resonates or what questions you have!
*For more information about Julie and to grab that pre-order bonus (until 9/24) for the latest edition of Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go, visit JulieWinkleGiulioni.com.
—
Julie Winkle Giulioni is a champion for workplace growth and development and helps executives and leaders optimize talent and potential within their organizations.
One of Inc. Magazine’s Top 100 speakers, she’s the co-author of the international bestseller, Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go, translated into seven languages and coming out in its third edition in September. Her latest book, Promotions Are So Yesterday: Redefine Career Development. Help Employees Thrive, has been recognized with Nautilus and Axiom Business Book Awards.
Julie is a regular columnist for Training Industry Magazine and SmartBrief and contributes articles on leadership, career development, and workplace trends to numerous publications including Fast Company and The Economist. Additionally, she partners with organizations worldwide offering her expertise in leadership and career development and designing award-winning bespoke development experiences.
For more information about Julie and to grab the latest edition of Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go (which comes with access to that custom-trained bot), visit JulieWinkleGiulioni.com.
You can also connect with her on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube.
- I'm Céline Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is a returning guest, the lovely Julie Winkle Giuliani, who is the co-author of the international bestseller, "Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go", which is coming out in its third edition on September 24th. Welcome back, Julie.
Thank you so much, Céline.
I always like to... Not even like I love talking to you, so I'm excited to have you back and to talk about this new edition of your book amongst other things but before we get that started, despite being a returning guest, I am curious when you hear the title, the name, title... The name of the podcast "Leading Through Crisis", what comes up for you now when you hear it? Given it's been a few years since we last connected in this way?
Yeah and I just love the focus that you've got because, you know, in business today, there is always some form of crisis. The crisis that comes to mind that really needs to be led through today, from my perspective, is the engagement crisis that we're up against. I mean you know, Gallup has come out with the research, we are experiencing an 11 year low in terms of employee engagement.
Wow.
And that's not good for organizations, obviously, but it's also not good for individuals to be going through the motions and slogging through the workday. And so you know, to the extent that we can, you know, crack the code and figure out what's it gonna take to tap that motivation and that excitement and that that sense of engagement, it's gonna serve, you know, for sustainable performance organizationally and just, you know, human sustainability as well.
I'm both surprised and not surprised that we're at an 11 year low of engagement. I mean, it sounds kind of... I don't mean that in a wishy-washy way. I mean, the number that it's an 11 year low is surprising and also there is a lot of disengagement, and I think a lot of people are struggling. And I think a lot of people are in positions or organizations, especially post pandemic, where it's like, "Well, this is just where I'm at for now."
Exactly, well and I think what happened during the pandemic as we confronted our mortality in some cases and really had some time to think about the broader context within which our work operates, a lot of us, you know, kind of decided when I go back, I want a different kind of relationship with my work. If I'm gonna go back and, you know, put myself or my family on the line, if I'm gonna, you know, do the commutes, make those compromises again, it's gonna have to be worth my time. It's gotta be meaningful and serve me in a variety of different ways. And so when those expectations don't meet a reality that can deliver on it, I think it does, it has created that lack of engagement and also the burnout, you know, the emotional wellness issues that people are struggling with. So I would say, I don't think it's an overstatement, to be honest with you, to say that is a crisis in business today.
It is a crisis, absolutely. Especially because the reality of the world that we live in is it's not like businesses are like, "It's fine, we don't have to be profitable for a bit. We can all like, take a moment and settle in." Sadly, that's not real.
No, no, it's not. No, the expectations on the part of stakeholders, shareholders, customers, I mean, they just continue to escalate. We used to talk about doing more with less. I mean, I talk to people now, it's doing everything with nothing. And so the pressure, I mean, it's just... It's a pressure cooker.
Absolutely and I would guess that in the newest edition of your book, congratulations on the third edition by the way, that some of this is maybe part of the, I'm gonna say updates, I don't know if that's the best word for it but changes the new aspects of this edition. Some of this is in the conversation.
Absolutely, when our publisher came to us and asked us to consider a third edition, my first reaction was, "Oh you know, like what's changed?" But the content is still relevant and it is. The context has changed and that just... That changes everything. So when you look around today as opposed to in 2019 when the second edition came out, you know, the ambiguity, the complexity folks are facing. the wide acknowledgement of skill gaps. You know, we talked about that kind of in HR, and learning and development corners before, but employees are hearing day in and day out. You know, that there are these skill gaps and if we don't fill them, we're gonna you know, have issues in terms of employability and future proofing one's job. We've got AI, I mean you know, and all the threats and opportunity that that offers. And so as we looked at the context, it was like, okay, yeah, we definitely need to be able to help leaders think differently about how to engage in development, because development we know, is one of the key drivers of engagement. So if we can figure out how do we develop people despite these challenges, we're in a much better position to be able to affect that engagement. And you know, all of the positive things that come from that.
I have a question about development but before we go to that, what are some of the other key drivers of engagement that if a leader's listening to this and they... I highly encourage 'em to go purchase the book, obviously, but if they're listening to this and they're thinking, you know, "Okay, but what are some of the other ones?" Because everyone always is like, fill in some of these blanks for me. What are some of the other key drivers of engagement that they should be aware of?
You know, one of the things that I think most leaders fail to appreciate is the power of the relationship that they forge with the employee. The most-
Amen to that. I just, please continue but yes.
I mean, for my perspective, that is the most profound driver. The relationship that an employee has with his or her manager becomes a reflection of the relationship they have with the whole organization. And managers, leaders, they are in such a powerful position to create an experience for employees that doesn't cost anything. Beyond, you know, attention and recognition, and understanding what's important and offering opportunities to grow. I mean, that's what people are looking for, and the leaders who are savvy enough to recognize that and invest in those relationships, they're the ones who see greater retention and greater result from the part of their teams.
I would... I love that and I would actually add, because I am a big pusher of relationships in organizations in general. I think that it's not only the relationship that leaders have with their, you know, employees, their direct reports, it's also the quality of the relationships that people have with each other, their peers, you know other teams in the organization. And oftentimes organizations will... And leaders will focus so heavily on like their team or this group of people that they miss the collective and they miss the value of relationships across the board. And if leaders have great relationships with their peers and they're modeling that and there's care and you know, compassion as part of that, kindness, as part of that, then that spreads in the organization and helps significantly in my anecdotal experience.
No, well said Céline, and I think it becomes even more important today as we've got teams that are more distributed. You know, more remote and hybrid work, where the manager may not be the central character in that employee's, you know, play every day. But where you've got these other relationships that can nourish and fuel, and where we can get great feedback, you know, and coaching from one another. We don't have to rely exclusively on the manager.
Absolutely, thank you for that and I have not forgotten what I wanted to ask about development, which is a miracle 'cause I often do. But when we talk about development, one of the things that I have seen a lot of in organizations and leaders struggle with, is there may not be a direct path to a next role. Or a really clear, you know, I'm at this level or this person who works for me or whatever it is, is at this level. And as the person who would be in the next role for this potential, for this... You know, the person who reports to me. I am in the role that they would potentially be moving into and they struggle to think about development outside of the path to the next role. And if there isn't a next role that's either free, or obvious or whatever the case may be, they just... They kind of dissociate from development as a whole.
Yeah, yeah. It becomes like an all or nothing sort of thing, promotion or no growth and nothing could be further from the truth. But what you've just described is sort of the traditional definition of what career development looks like. And you know, you're moving up the corporate ladder, hopscotching around the org chart. You've got, you know, this massive plan with 18 steps that are gonna get you from here to there and I mean, you talk about old school. We look at the world today and how quickly it's moving, I worry so much about people who are so committed to their career path because who knows if that path is just gonna lead to a dead end because so many jobs are going away or shifting dramatically. And where are the on-ramps for all the new jobs that are coming? And so for leaders and individuals alike, I think the challenge is, the opportunity becomes, to expand our definition of what development looks like. Sure, you know we may have aspirations for different places in the organization, but those moves are just points in time. What are we doing in between that both prepares us for what those moves might be that we want, but also gives us greater capacity and contribution and joy in what we're doing day in and day out. And to your point to your question about development, whether it's a leader who's occupying the seat that somebody else wants or not, when leaders look around the organization, the successful, effective developers of others at least, look around the organization they see all sorts of kind of hidden in plain sight opportunities for people to grow. Sure, there are classes and workshops and that sort of thing, all very important. But there are also these gems just sitting around the organization, you know, projects and work that needs to be done, voids. You know, issues where nobody's taking care of it, that are great opportunities for growth. Even just getting on a team where you get to rub shoulders with somebody who's got the skills that you're trying to develop. There are just so many absolutely budget neutral ways to offer development when leaders and employees alike start to get creative and break out of the position based mold that we've been stuck in.
I could... Yes, absolutely I think that is... I wish more leaders, I wish more organizations, leaders, employees, individuals, we're in a position to think about that currently. Because it is, I say this all the time that I think I feel for the students that are going through university or college right now, because in five years, so many of the things that they're learning are, especially if they're like very skill related as opposed to like theories, which not super applicable, but they're less likely to be irrelevant or outdated, whereas skills, they really are. And I say that because I think we're very shortsighted and I'm curious when it comes to... So I'm a big proponent of feedback, both constructive and positive. And I think we should be doing way more positive feedback than constructive but both are valuable and to me that is a easy starting point for development. In the sense of the positive feedback lets us hopefully know what our skills are to build out more, to continue to develop. And if you're working with a great leader, they can help you figure out what the opportunities that might match those are. And constructive feedback. And I mean constructive, truly constructive. Not the way we often sandwich feedback, which I could go on a rant about. Also then allows us to fill gaps for ourselves and say, "Actually I do wanna work on that." Or, "I actually don't think that's a problem for me and I'm okay not..." So the kind of question is with feedback my... I'm not saying you're agreeing with this, but you know, I think it's a great starting point. What are the opportunities with feedback for development or how can this be blended into the bigger picture of development in organizations from your perspective?
Well, I think feedback is really central to development. It's that, you know, guidance system. So we're going in this direction, we're trying this, but how do we know it's working? Well, we've got some feedback that either says, "Yeah, yeah, right on the right track, keep going." Or, "Let's make some adjustments here." So I think it's a central thread within this, you know, tapestry that we weave that is the development. And I just before answering the question of the how, I just wanna unpack a couple of things. So you were talking about the positive, the reinforcing feedback. The expressions of appreciation that are really specific and those are so important, especially, you know, we go back to this engagement crisis that we're in. I've never had anyone tell me they get too much positive... You know, but so many leaders, it's just you know, "If you don't hear from me, everything's good." No news is good news sort of situation and that just does not feed an employee's soul or help them to do more of the good stuff that they're doing. And so positive feedback is such a great tool for unpacking the contributions and getting really specific so that a leader can strategically grow more of the behaviors that they want. You know, it's a very strategic tool when used effectively. On the other side of it, you were talking about the gaps. You know, feedback does, it does identify those gaps and helps you to double down on how do I fill the gaps? Alternately, you know, it may identify a gap and I say, " I don't have the energy or the appetite for doing that, I'm gonna pivot. I really want to instead do work like that." And so the feedback can help to mold our thinking and move us in different directions in terms of our growth. In terms of the how of feedback, kind of going back to what we were talking about before, when it comes to development and feedback is a piece of it, we don't have to make that an exclusive relationship between the manager and the employee, which it has so long been. Increasingly, I'm talking with my clients about let's turn development into a team sport. Let's team members who are closer to one another who see more than the manager can. Let's help them and enable them to start offering the kind of information that people need to infuse more growth and performance into what they're bringing. And part of that is teaching team members to be more skillful about how to deliver the feedback. But the other, and the easier side of it, is to teach team members how to ask for and receive feedback. Because you know, I've had managers tell their teams, okay, you need to go gather feedback. But an employee will typically go and say, "Well how do you think I'm doing, Céline?" you know what are gonna do? It's just like, yeah, you're doing great.
Right.
And that's not valuable but if we can arm employees with really great questions to go gather great insights, you know, what are the unique contributions I'm making to the team that others aren't? What is my reputation in this team? What conditions have you seen me thrive in, and where am I struggling? I mean, when we start getting really concrete like that, then those around us have permission to, and they have a focus for, the kind of information you're looking for.
The questions are the key to getting good feedback and I think we often underestimate the importance of inviting people into the conversation to give us feedback and I'm also... Leaders, this is for you. Because leaders historically do not get feedback or they don't do a great job of getting feedback from the people that report to them. They are great at giving the feedback and I don't mean they do it effectively, but they're much more active.
Generous.
Correct they're much more generous in the giving of the feedback but they don't invite it in, which then undermines any kind of culture of feedback that you're trying to create. And the reality is that we have to invite, leaders need to be inviting feedback and they need to be asking the good questions. And it is going to be awkward and I want to acknowledge this 'cause I've run a number of sessions on giving feedback and everyone without fail always asks, "As a peer it feels uncomfortable to offer feedback to another peer, how do we get around that?" That's part of creating that culture and having the good questions and when leaders model it, other people become more comfortable.
Yeah, well and we need to redefine feedback too, right? I mean, 'cause most people, when they hear feedback that's like an F word. You know, when you start to cower, "I've got some feedback for you." I mean, you see incoming and if we can help people to think about feedback, it's just helpful information
Yes.
That you're offering that people may accept and act on or not, you know, it's all about, you know, choice. Suddenly it takes some of that edge off. And I agree more, I think leaders who are good at inviting feedback, accepting it graciously, taking action on it, reporting back and closing the loop and and appreciating it. Those folks are modeling what it looks like to do this. And seeing a good example makes it a lot easier then for their employees to do it. It also creates a kind of psychological safety that's at the foundation of any kind of developmental relationship we have. And just going back to your comment about the questions, I frequently say, "The quality of the feedback is absolutely proportionate to the quality of the questions that you're asking." Crummy questions, crummy feedback.
Absolutely and when we ask... We are inviting feedback by asking those specific questions, then when people give feedback without being asked for it specifically in the future, they have a framework and a sandbox to play in, 'cause they have a sense of what you care about or what you're working on or where you're at.
Yeah, yeah and that's so important, going back to those relationships among peers as well as with managers.
Yeah, so I know we kind of focused on the development side of this but are there... In this the newest edition of the book, are there other, let's say updates or other areas that you focused on where you were like, these are a few key things that have changed in the last five years and post pandemic?
Yeah, yeah a couple of things in particular. One is the role of, we refer to as HI in an AI based world.
Okay.
Interactions despite such a technology driven environment that we find ourselves in. You know, a lot of leaders, especially those who may not be all that comfortable having these kinds of conversations, would love to use technology to take some of that off their plates and there is no replacement for the human interaction. You know, there's something just deeply and uniquely human about growth and development and so address that pretty robustly. I think the biggest change in this edition is a whole new chapter on developing at a distance. Because certainly five years ago, there were people who worked remotely but not in the numbers that we see today. What we found is that leaders, you know, especially those who struggled to develop people who were co-located right there in their backyard, all that much more challenging once we were scattered to the wind. So we did some research figured out that there aren't any magic bullets, actually. Did several, like 25 different interviews with practitioners and thought leaders. And the common thread, nobody had any, you know, I wanted a laundry list of 85 new things we could do. Didn't have that but the common thread and everything they said is intentionality. Do everything you would do with people who are together but do it intentionally. And so in that chapter, we've built out some intentional ways to infuse greater development into the experience of those employees who are remote or hybrid so that leaders can level the playing field and not fall into that proximity bias that can be problematic for them and for the organization. And then I guess the other two things are, we put even more questions in, and we've got more than a hundred questions 'cause we're such fans of the question driving the conversation. So we've got more than a hundred questions in there. And I gotta say, the thing I'm most excited about actually with this edition is we've introduced a companion piece, an AI companion piece that we're calling The Book Bot. And the readers, once they read the book, they can go then to this custom GPT and it's been trained on this content to be able to be a partner with the reader, the leader, and can take a situation in and say, "Hey, I've got a conversation coming up with Céline and here's what we've talked about in the past, and here's what I think she's interested in. Can you help me?" And it'll help, you know, outline the conversation and pull some questions together that create a robust conversation. You could practice it, you know, I might say, "Oh, I'm a little nervous about this, you know, I don't know how Céline's gonna react. She might be defensive, can we rehearse it?" And the bot will take on the role of Céline and I get to practice that and kind of work out the kinks and get some feedback on that. So it'll be a great tool for bridging that knowing-doing gap. So I don't know about you, I read a book and I all fired up. I've got all these great ideas and then it's just like life, you know, intrudes. So we're hoping to bridge that gap and help people put those good ideas into practice with the bot.
That is so cool. That's such a great idea and I think it's... I mean I wanna try it out and see how it goes because I think that's a really cool and useful tool. And you know, as someone who does a lot of executive coaching, a space where people could go and try out, and get more comfortable, especially with those tough conversations would be so valuable. It would be so valuable so I love that you have created that. I think that's incredibly cool.
Yeah, yeah we're really excited to get everybody's reaction to it.
Yeah I did wanna say also really quickly, I think that we often undervalue intentionality in all ways. And it is so important with the hybrid and remote world that we're living in right now. And I think my experience has been that often leaders and employees aren't intentional because it takes time. And we all think, I don't have enough time to do fill in the blank. And I wanna and I think it's important to acknowledge, it takes time to be intentional and long-term it saves time. But it is so hard to put those in perspective when you're like, but I have to plan a conversation and think about how I'm gonna do this and spend all this time upfront. Why would I do that, what's the ROI?
Yep but it's a pay now pay later sort of situation. You're gonna pay, you know, how do you, and when do you wanna pay? By investing on the front end with that intention, with even a couple of minutes of thought creates a trajectory that's far easier to manage. You're not dealing with the problems and the fire drills and that kind of thing. So you're absolutely right, it is a choice that leaders make. And in my experience, it's a choice that effective leaders make to bring that level of intentionality. The other thing that I wanted to mention too, was just the root of that word intention is so powerful as well. I think a lot of leaders may avoid career conversations because they feel like they don't know how. They don't have this, it's gonna be clunky, you know, they're not gonna be elegant at it. I have never had... I've never heard one employee complain about a clunky conversation. You know, that it was a little clumsy or they kind of didn't do it as perfectly. They complain that they're not getting the development. But people read intentions so when it comes to even feedback, if you don't have the right verbal formula, no big deal. If you're coming at it with the intention of being helpful and supporting this person, they'll work through the clunkiness and maybe poor word choices and being able to see what's in your heart as well.
And I agree and there is always an opportunity and I'm a big proponent of acknowledging that this is awkward or you're not sure if you're gonna say the right words. "I want to have this conversation with you and here's what I'm hoping because you know, I see an opportunity for you or I see it's something that is..." It's about the other person, not about me. "I see an opportunity for you and this may not come out as smoothly as I would ideally hope this might be a bit clunky. Please have some grace and please bear with me and ask." And if you acknowledge that upfront that goes such a long way.
I agree you know, I hadn't thought about it, but I frequently do that. I'll say you know, "This might not come out as I'm intending so gimme a chance to clean it up if you take it wrong way."
Yeah.
You're right it just, I think it's puts the barriers down and creates this authentic human connection with people.
Agreed, I love talking to you and I'm really excited that your... I'm really excited that your book is coming out in just a few weeks from... And I think it'll be right around the time that the podcast is released. There will be links to everything in the show notes. Is there anything that you would like to end on or if there's somewhere specific you'd like to send people, this is the opportunity, Julie.
Well, thank you. Well, depending upon when this podcast hits, if it's before September 24th, we have a really lovely partnership with the folks at AthenaOnline. They kind of started the whole micro learning craze way back when. And they put together this lovely library of eight videos of my co-author, Bev Kaye and myself. Excuse me and they're giving it to us to give to people as a gift for pre-orders. So if anybody was interested in ordering before the 24th, and you can just go to my website and the information is all there and we'll get you those videos.
Perfect and that will be linked up. And Bev Kaye is has also been on the show and we love Bev, so it's very exciting that the two of you are together on this and this is happening. And I'm really grateful that you have come back and that you have shared this update with us. And I am so excited for your new book, it's so well deserved.
Thank you so much, and thanks for having me back. Maybe third time will be a charm. Let me see what we can whip up for next time.
Well, I'm sure you're working on yet another book that will be... Thank you so much, Julie.
Thank you, Céline.
[Céline] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.