Work and careers have changed, over the last couple of years especially, but career development hasn't. We are in a fascinating time where we have the opportunity to look at everything differently... This episode explores HOW to increase employee satisfaction and engagement.
We are in the middle of what has been dubbed The Great Resignation. Companies are dealing with how to attract and retain talent like never before. Individuals are doing a lot of soul-searching and reflection, in regards to their relationship with work.
And, there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution.
The time is right to disrupt, change and grow in the area of career development to provide more possibilities for folks.
In this episode, we explore:
- the top 2 career development priorities most people have (they're not what you think)
- a whole bunch of questions to ask instead of "where do you see yourself in 3-5 years?"
- a tool Managers can use for greater success in increasing satisfaction and engagement
+ more!
Listen in and let us know what you think.
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Julie Winkle Giulioni is a champion/trainer for workplace growth and development. She was named by Inc. Magazine as a Top 100 Leadership Speaker. And, has a new book coming out in March 2022: Promotions Are So Yesterday: Redefine Career Development. Help Employees Thrive (for purchase at all major booksellers).
To learn more about her, or to discover your own unique development priorities (via her career self-assessment tool), visit https://www.juliewinklegiulioni.com/. You can also find and follow her on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter.
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis Podcast. A conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Julie Winkle Giulioni, who is an author, consultant trainer, and speaker who helps organizations tap their only sustainable competitive advantage talent. She is one of Inc. Magazine's top 100 speakers. She's the co-author of the international bestseller, "Help Them Grow Or Watch Them Go" with Bev K. who is also a guest on this podcast, which is fantastic. And she is the author of "Promotions Are So Yesterday, "Redefine Career Development, Help Employees Thrive," which is coming out in March of this year. So a month in a bit away from now, welcome, Julie.
Thank you so much. I've been looking forward to our conversation.
As have I, I love that you have a book coming out so soon. It's always fun when we get to have a conversation in time for that. So as you know, 'cause I did tell you about this. I always start all these conversations by asking the question that the title of this podcast is Leading Through Crisis. And I'm curious what that means to you or what comes up for you when you hear that?
Well, it kind of strikes me, there are two crises that we might wanna talk about. I mean, one is the crisis that leaders and organizations are facing right now in terms of being able to retain and attract talent during this time of the great resignation, reevaluation, reshuffle, whatever we might wanna call it. And then there's the other crisis it's maybe operating on more of an individual level and feeding into the organizational crisis. The last two years have certainly sparked a lot of soul searching and reflection. And a lot of us are perhaps in crisis around what our relationship with work wants to be. How we wanna relate to the work that we do and the people that we do it with and the organizations for which we do it. And so I think these two crises are sort of feeding one another and creating a really, both a tenuous workplace, but also some real opportunities for leaders and organizations who are willing to look at it in a clear-eyed way and maybe approach work differently.
It's really interesting that you say that, two things come up for me right away. I was on a call this morning talking to some leaders in an organization about this idea of retaining and attracting people and what that looks like and how to be effective, how to, I'm saying be effective. That's a terrible phrasing for it, but how to be more effective at, especially attracting people right now, because almost everyone who's not in a small town is having real challenges around this. And it's fascinating how unsure everyone seems to be about what to even try next.
Yeah, yeah. Well, and, you know, it's been until recently, managers, leaders, organizations, they didn't have to work that hard. The dynamics, the power dynamics have certainly shifted now. And so I think we're having to look at this notion of both retention and attraction in really different ways and figure out what tools that maybe we haven't been bringing to bear need to be brought to bear. And to be honest with you, when you talk with folks, when you look at the research, employees are leaving for a whole lot of different reasons, aren't they? And so as a leader, it really, you don't have a one size fits all sort of solution for making this happen. So it really requires a lot of reflection and savvy on the part of leaders and managers to figure out when they're looking at their own employees right now, what's gonna be most important to them. What's gonna create an attractive experience that's going to keep them satisfied and engaged and wanting to stay here. And at least with those folks, you have some history, some information to work with. With new potential employees, you don't have that data pool upon which to draw. And so you really have to, very quickly during the interviewing process, figure out what the priorities are and what it's gonna take, is it flexibility, work from anywhere, work at whatever time you want, do the job in the way that you want, or is it someone who's really looking for that next level of challenge or a sense of balance in life, whatever it might be, but we gotta hone in on that and figure that out to be able to offer employees the experience that's gonna make it an attractive place to be.
Yeah, I think it's, one of the things that I am noticing is that organizations, a lot, this is a broad generalization. I'm totally acknowledging I'm generalizing in a very not productive way, but there's a point for it. Organizations, broad generalization, historically have had a, if we do this one or two things, it is going to fix this problem. One size fits all, here we go. And I think that the individual crisis that you were talking about, that a lot of people are going through where they are reevaluating their work. They are reevaluating their relationships at work. And I would go a step further and say that I think a lot of them are reevaluating their entire lives, which is what is driving that reevaluation. There is no one or two or five or 10 solutions that's going to address even a small percentage of those reevaluations. And the individuals know that because they are in that process, but at an organizational and leader level, you don't even know where to start with. How do you do anything with that?
I know, I know. It was really easy in the days when we had the employee engagement program of the month. 'Cause you knew the seven steps to go through and you could take that off your list. Increasingly I'm playing with this idea and it's not fully baked, so maybe you can help me here, with the idea of a bespoke experience. I went to a lounge, recently, outdoors, of course, but the mixologist was creating these bespoke cocktails. And you would tell him what alcohol you liked and what juices or whatever, what vibe you were going for. And because the mixologist understood how these pieces fit together, was able to put together this amazing cocktail that was exactly right for me. And I work a lot in the area of development and of course development is huge. That's one of the key reasons folks are leaving organizations, in fact, there was some research recently. Folks are 7.9 times more likely to leave an organization where they feel like there's not an opportunity for growth and development, even if they like their job. So as I'm thinking about development in particular, I'm really wondering, do we have an opportunity to think about that in bespoke terms? That it's not just take from this list of courses, look at the catalog and follow what might be interesting, but really as a manager, understanding what makes that employee tick, what, right now, they want to be doing, how they wanna be growing, what they wanna be learning to create kind of a custom cocktail of development and engagement activities that will create the experience that causes someone to feel like this is the home I wanna be in. This is where I want to share my talents and make a difference.
I'm guessing that that would be very complicated to put together, but I think that having that sort of bespoke mix and match experience for people, I think that might be the only solution. I don't know what else a solution would be. What popped into mind as you were saying that is, I think of employees, people at organizations, when it comes to development, that the path is, you get up to take on more responsibility, you make more money, whatever the case may be. And then you are managing people. And that is the next step inside of these career paths. And Julie, I think it is safe to say that we both know people who are managing or leading people who should never be managing or leading people and who don't want to manage or lead people. And I think of that bespoke experience and I think of even career paths. Rethinking the way that we've thought about career paths historically, which is why are we only rewarding people financially and with title and whatever the case may be when they lead other people? Why are we minimizing the contribution of the individual who rocks at whatever their job is?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you've nailed it. I'm not sure we even need to continue this conversation because that is exactly it. I was listening to one of your other podcasts. You had the guest Mike Horne on and it was great, great episode.
Thank you.
So if you haven't heard that, make sure that everybody listens to it, but you said something that just made me wanna get up and cheer. You talked about you no longer, when you speak to children, you no longer talk to them in terms of what do you wanna be when you grow up. 'Cause we've all heard that. And you were talking about it in terms of just kind of creating this overwhelming or sort of experience. I've avoided that now for years, because I am firmly convinced that from a young age, we are training people to think in terms of work being about being something, having a title, being in a role. And it absolutely reinforces this notion of, we only reward that upward trajectory.
Yep.
And so kids are now thinking "I'm gonna be a doctor. I'm gonna be a, whatever." I wanted to be an elevator operator. But we'll save that for another conversation. But then people go to the workplace and despite the fact that organizations are flat, despite the fact that managers frequently will admit, "Hey, I'm not gonna have this current conversation 'cause I don't have any promotions for people. And I don't wanna, get their hopes up and have them be more disappointed. So I'm just gonna avoid it all together." Despite all of that, when they do have that conversation, they pull out the, "Where do you see yourself in three to five years," which is the corporate equivalent of what do you wanna be when you grow up? And we just reinforce this idea that career development is a move up. We've conflated career development with promotions. And in the process, I think managers are kind of operating with an arm tied behind their back or maybe both arms because it's mathematically impossible, given the way organizations are structured, it's mathematically impossible to offer development to everybody who wants it. If that promotion or that next position is the only way we're thinking about it. So until we break that frame and offer a broader definition of career development, we're gonna continue to have that frustration that you articulated so well.
I have a question, but I wanna make this comment first, which is, so I talk about this on the podcast all the time. I have ADHD and I can tell you when people have said to me in the past, when I worked in organizations and they said, "Where do you wanna be in three to five years?" My brain does not work. I was like, "I don't understand the question. I can't predict the future. That's not how my brain works." I know that some of that comes from ADHD for me, it's not for everyone. I am not the only person who has had that experience. Where in that moment you don't even know how to answer and you end up masking and saying, I think this is the thing they want me to say, because I don't know how to answer 'cause that's not how I have thought. And that's not how I tend to think. So I wanted to make that comment because I could not agree with you more and continuing to use language like that is the opposite of inclusive for anyone who has any different way of thinking about these things on top of everything else. So I just wanted to-
Oh my Gosh, Celine, that is so insightful. I would've never thought of it from that perspective, but you're right. It isn't inclusive of people who think differently.
Yep.
The other thing I would add to that though, is it doesn't make any sense to have that conversation, to ask that question. I mean, the Institute for the Future of Work, I quote this all the time because I think it is the most powerful statistic. The Institute for the Future of Work is suggesting that 85% of the jobs we're gonna be doing in 2030 haven't been invented.
Yes. Yep.
So, okay, so I say today, let's suppose my brain even worked that way and I could articulate that I wanna be a blah, blah, blah. There's likely not gonna be a blah, blah, blah job available. And I'm gonna have to be thinking differently. So to continue to have people think in terms of what they wanna be narrows the conversation, it sets people up for irrelevance. It doesn't future proof a career by any stretch. And so as I'm talking with organizations and leaders, the focus I really believe needs to be on what do you wanna do? And when we start talking about what people wanna do, then suddenly that's an expansive, hope-filled, possibility-filled sort of conversation where a manager can start saying, yeah. Okay, we can figure out how you can do that rather than I want a promotion, oh no, I'm sorry. You know, old Mr. so-and-so isn't going anywhere. So just figure it out.
I love that you went there 'cause my question was going to be, what are some alternative questions to where do you see yourself in three to five years? And I think, what do you wanna do is a great reframing, repositioning of a question, let's say.
Yeah, what kind of work do you wanna be doing, with whom, under what kind of circumstances? What kind of difference do you wanna make? What kind of technologies do you wanna work with? What kinds of customers do you look forward to? What kinds of challenges are you up for? What do you want to look back and have accomplished? What do you wanna learn? The new book that's coming up, "Promotions Are So Yesterday" it actually offers an expanded definition of career development beyond the climb up the corporate ladder, but seven other dimensions that are more possible for growth. That employees and managers can invite right into the employee's role, say yes to. And give people the opportunity to develop in multiple different ways, whether there's a move or a promotion or another position on the horizon or not.
Yeah. And I really hope that whoever's listening or watching this has written down some of those questions that you listed out there quickly, 'cause I think that they are, I think it does change the conversation. And I think to what you mentioned with your book, in your book that's coming out and while I have not had the privilege of reading it yet, I don't know an organization that does not have an opportunity to rethink how they think about career development and to rethink how they're thinking about promotions and how they're thinking about rewarding people for good work.
Yeah, yeah. I couldn't agree more, I frequently say careers have changed. The very nature of work has changed. The statistics on average, we're gonna have 10 years or four years in a role, average of 12 jobs over the course of our lifetime. I mean, you have to ask, what does a career even mean when we're talking about something like that. So careers have changed, but career development hasn't, we still treat it the way we used to, probably, when our parents were working. With that default setting of tap you on the shoulder every 18 months and invite you up the next run of the ladder. And so, it strikes me that this is a unique time that we're going through in organizations and business. There's such disruption on so many levels that the time is really right to disrupt career development as well, to expand its definition or the menu of ways that people can grow. So that there's more possibility for folks.
So I'm curious why you think it has been so slow to change this idea of career development, this idea of, because even in terms of, if I think of organizational design, people who are in holacratic, did not say that right. the word that I can't say right now.
We know what you mean.
Yeah, thank you. Flat organizations, organizational design, there has changed. Different experiments, different ways of thinking about it. Different ways of approaching it, different ways. There's lots of experiments changing, conversations happening. I don't hear any of that or very, very little, few people like yourself, but very few people actually talking about this from a development perspective. And I'm curious why you think even with all of these other experiments and conversations happening that this area has been so slow to respond or adapt or change or anything.
It's hard, I mean, I think that's-
Well there we go, that's, yeah, yeah, fair.
It's hard, there's a lot going on there. I mean, historically if we go back to, what do you wanna be when you grow up? From the time we're small, a lot of us, kind of in our DNA is this idea of development means going up. And so that's hard to dismantle. Culturally you think about when you go out and meet somebody at a, well, when we used to go out and meet people at parties. What's the first question. Well, what do you do for a living? And it's about our title and it's about all of that. So there are cultural, there are just sort of internal dynamics that are at play there. And managers, leaders, organizations, I believe have traditionally expected, that that's all people are looking for is that climb up the corporate ladder or that that's what most people are looking for. And so without some alternatives, without laying out, hey, there are some other ways you can help people grow that really have meaning to them. So for instance, in the book, we talk about one of the dimensions in the research, our research would suggest it's most interesting to people, people wanna grow through contribution. They wanna step up, they wanna do something more. They wanna be of service, they wanna make a difference. And there's tremendous growth associated in doing that. But until we put that on the menu, as it were, for managers and employees, until we bring language to that, folks don't know how to pursue that. So now when we're talking about it, okay, let's look at contributions. Somebody really wants to step up, where is there a project that's gonna give them the chance to develop the skills or the connections or the experiences that are gonna bring them satisfaction and growth right now? How do we construct that experience in a way that keeps the development in the foreground? So it's not just more work, but it's really a development opportunity. Once we teach managers how to do that, once we give them that broader menu, then they've got somewhere to go. But until now, the menu, the playbook, it's just been about that promotion and how we keep funneling people up that ladder, creating the disharmony and the dissatisfaction that comes from that.
And that makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense that people. Until someone writes a book like your book, until people understand what some of the options are, they don't even know where to start. You don't even know what the conversation topic should be. I'm curious. So this phrasing might seem strange so bear with me for a second. I'm curious how organizations, leaders, people that you have clearly spoken about this with and done work with around this. How they have responded initially, because, and I say that, no offense to any HR leaders who are out listening to this, some organizations have HR teams that are resistant to changes like these, to even conversations like these, 'cause it threatens whatever structure they have created thus far So I'm curious how this lands with folks and what the response has been and, how it's rolled forward from there 'cause clearly it has and rightfully so.
Yes, yes. And so my experience is skewed by my experience, I guess.
Of course, yeah.
And the folks I'm working with likely are predisposed to be open to a different way of approaching it. What I have to say that the human resources professionals with whom I have been working and piloting some of our pieces here, they have been beyond receptive because it addresses a pain point that they have been trying valiantly to address for all of these years. And it gives them a tool to enable their managers to have greater success in this arena. I'm just thinking about a couple of the HR departments that I'm working with, who are, to say scrambling sounds negative, but they are seeing how quickly they can get information out about this to their HR business partners, to their managers because they see it as a tool for being able to have a more authentic and a broader and a more satisfying conversation. I did some early testing with one organization in particular and it was a fascinating experiment. We actually had a manager bring her team together and we took the whole team through self assessment so that they could see which of the dimensions from the multi-dimensional career framework were more interesting to them. And had this open discussion, the thing that's always amazing to me and we have a great online version of this self-assessment as well as the one that's in the book. The thing that's always amazing to me when I do a workshop or a webinar on this, I'll have people do the self-assessment and then we'll do a poll and just ask folks to share what's your number one most interesting of the dimensions. And my heart always stops for a moment when I'm ready to hit share poll because while our research found that contribution and competence were number one and two in aggregate and climbing the corporate ladder was dead last. Every time I get ready for a new organization's poll, I think, oh my gosh, is this the time that it's all gonna fall apart? Every time, I am again, heartened because contribution and competence continue to be right up there. Now, sometimes depending upon the organization, climb isn't dead last, it might be seventh or sixth or something, but this assumption that everybody wants a promotion, it's just wrong. And so when leaders see that, so anyway, this experiment that we did with this one team, the leader then went back and used that self-assessment material as a basis for a conversation. And when she called me maybe a month later and reported out the depth of the relationship that she had built with folks was incredible because these were real, authentic conversations. People were sharing what was important, but she also was able to really figure out what it was it was going to inspire and engage people. Was able to do some job crafting, shift some things around. One person ended up moving out into another department. And so, I would say I've not seen resistance, but really an embracing of being able to deal with this in a more full-bodied way.
Yeah, thank you for sharing. I think that is, I think it's important context for people listening and if there's a leader listening who is thinking this might work, but I don't know about my HR team. I think this is helpful for them to know and understand for themselves. And you said something that I wanted to touch on really quickly, which is this, this false idea that promotions are the path forward. This is the thing that people care about, that next level. And I think the unfortunate thing is that we have historically tied financial reward to promotions in a very particular way. And this is one of the hills that I'm willing to die on. As long as we continue to do that, we are going to reinforce this system that is not really successful for many of the people who are involved in it at different levels. And we need to uncouple financial reward with promotions 'cause all that does is make people think, well, if I wanna make more money and if I want to be able to buy a house, support my family, have a child, whatever the case may be, I need to be promoted in this way. Then they are not, often not doing the work that they love in a way that works for them. And they're not committed and excited and engaged and all the things that we ultimately want from people. And I just needed to die on that hill for a moment.
I will die on that hill with you, Celine, yet again, I wanna just cheer at what you're saying. You're so right. When I talk to people who wanna climb the corporate ladder, they want that next promotion, and I ask the question why, what is it about that job that you're really looking forward to? A lot of people scratch their head, they don't know. It's just the reflexive thing that feeds into it's the next paid bump. And it's how I elevate myself and take better care of my family. And so the good news is though that a lot of organizations are experimenting with implementing creative compensation packages where technical people can have their own pathway that leads toward greater remuneration. Organizations are looking at how can we pay for outcomes rather than for the job. And so you're absolutely right. I think the next frontier is figuring out the equitable comp so people can do the work that they love to do, so that they can contribute in ways that they want, so they can grow their whole careers, but grow in ways that are meaningful for them rather than align to some external measuring stick, that is an org chart and a comp plan.
Absolutely. Thank you for being on the hill with me because when you said that, I was like, I just need to say this out loud because I think it's important and I think it's important to acknowledge. So I could talk to you for a very long time. This is amazing and fascinating and I appreciate you sharing your stories and some of your research and your thoughts on these topics. 'Cause I think they are very important right now with everything that is happening in the world and in the economy and with the job market and with all of the things, 'cause right now is a fascinating time. And before, because we have non-linear path here, which is my favorite type of path. Before we wrap up, I do wanna ask, is there something we didn't get to that you would like to bring up or talk about? Or is there something that we did talk about that you just wanna emphasize before we get to the end of this conversation?
Yeah, I mean, and thank you Celine, this has been such a fun conversation. You're right, we could just do this all day long.
A hundred percent.
So maybe just punctuate. You just used the word, this is a fascinating time that we're going through and we have a fascinating opportunity during this time of disruption to look at everything differently. And so I guess I would just invite leaders, managers, organizations to really look at career development and the opportunities that we have to expand its definition, give people opportunities to grow that aren't just related to a new role or a promotion. You tap their desire for contribution, for confidence, for competence, for choice, for contentedness. And some of the other dimensions that are part of our framework because in the process, we're not just gonna help people to grow, but we're going to elevate that level of satisfaction and engagement and kind of looping back to our opening discussion, address that crisis that we've got right now in terms of being able to retain and attract top talent.
Absolutely. Thank you for your time today, Julie, it has been a pleasure. So Julie's website is Julie Winkle Giulioni which will be linked in the show notes and all spelled out properly there. And do you have a date that your book will be out in the public?
Yes, "Promotions Are So Yesterday," which I just have to show you because we unboxed it today. You're gonna see it before anyone else. Isn't it beautiful?
So exciting, it's beautiful, congratulations.
Thank you, so "Promotions Are So Yesterday" comes out on March 8th and it's available for pre-order at all your favorite book sellers.
Amazing, we will have a link for that in the show notes as well for people to check out. And I wish you the absolute best of luck with that book, 'cause it sounds amazing. And if talking to you for this short period of time is any reflection, I can only imagine the value that that book is going to provide. So thank you for your time.
Thank you, Celine, thank you so much.
And for sharing so much with me.
I've really enjoyed our time together.
As have I. Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.