For over 20 years Jon Humberstone worked in the area of understanding human personality, behavior, and motivation. He currently runs operations and marketing for a small but fast-growing online health and wellness training company. In this episode, we discuss how to deal with stress from a holistic perspective, which adheres to the core principles of a happy and healthy life.
Driven by a fascination with human psychology and motivation, Jon has helped dozens of entrepreneurs create, package, and successfully sell personal development, professional development, and health coaching products and courses online.
Excited by challenges, and driven by the constant desire to help improve the quality of people’s lives, Jon has recently transitioned from leadership positions within marketing and sales to a full-time C-level role. Jon approaches his new role as an executive by exploring as well as questioning conventional leadership paradigms and learning to better understand the role of instinct in leadership. He applies what he’s learned over the last two decades about personality and motivation to create an environment in which people on his team can grow and excel.
He talks about the importance of self-care which means getting enough sleep, eating nutritious food, maintaining quality social connection, and spending time in nature. Jon shares his experience in leading a 100% virtual company and ensuring the “psychological safety” of his team in times of crisis.
Find out more about Jon’s work on his company website: www.Chriskresser.com
Connect with him on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kresserinstitute/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/humberstone/
- [Voiceover] Welcome to "Leading Through Crisis", a conversation series exploring the idea of leadership in challenging times.
- Hi, and welcome to "Leading Through Crisis". I'm Celine Williams and I'm here today with Jon Humberstone. Jon has worked as a marketing manager and consultant for nearly 20 years, and very recently, at the beginning of this year, transitioned to full-time leadership of 100% virtual health and wellness company that has grown from three to 30 employees in the last three years, or three and a half years, actually. He is also currently implementing the entrepreneurial operating system throughout the company, as they look to traverse the tricky growth stages of a company exiting startup mode and seeking long-term profitability and stability. Thank you for joining me, Jon, and I'm excited to have you here.
- I'm so happy to be here and thanks for having me here.
- Absolutely, so I wanna start by talking, since you have so recently transitioned to full-time leadership, and very fascinating timing given what happened in the middle of March, I'd love to talk to you a little bit about your experience in that transition to full-time leadership. And then, once that transition was in the midst of having happened, transitioning into this period of crisis, if you like. So, how has this been for you? What was your experience like?
- Well, I think I should start by saying, I never really was a person who envisioned myself being in this position when I was younger. It wasn't a career aspiration of mine, per se. In fact, I remember, when I was eight years old, distinctly making the choice not to be involved in corporate America, just knowing my personality, not having that desk job, that nine to five. And luckily, I feel very blessed that I found a way to contribute, but be in a virtual company where I can have an environment that feeds me and where I can excel. But having been with the company that I'm with for 10 years, now, and since the very beginning, I care a lot about it. I have the knowledge, I've been managing people for 20 years, and it just kind of made sense that this was a role I would step into as opposed to the challenge of trying to find an outside person to bring in. And I love a good challenge, also. I like new things and challenges. So I'm always looking for that next thing that's gonna push me to be a better person. And I thought this was actually a perfect next step, although a daunting one. So as I approached that being a leader full-time, I was fairly conscientious about it and had kind of a plan, and I hired a leadership coach and I got a therapist, in fact, also, because I know enough about a business to know that half is therapy. Really, the success in business is who you are, and that's an important element as well. And so, together with my leadership coach, I kind of approached this like designing my own path and who am I as a leader? Because that same eight-year-old who was kind of repelled by corporate America was also repelled by a lot of what I had read in leadership books. The typical paradigms out there. In fact, the business coach that I work with, I met because she gave a presentation about masculine and feminine energies in leadership. And I was drawn to that, because one of my early mentors was a very command-and-control style, old-fashioned, 1950s CEO. And so that was like the only model I had, along with just the typical business books, and it just didn't appeal to me. I knew I couldn't succeed being that, that if I was going to be a good leader, I needed to figure out my path for leadership, how to leverage who I am and dig deeper down to who I really am and use that in leadership. So that's kind of how I approached this, that's what I've been working with my coach on, is kind of defining what are those elements of leadership that fit my personality, and that leverage my strengths, and that allow me to show up as my whole self and be the leader in that circumstance. So, in a way it's fortuitous that I had just started, because when the crisis hits, to me, and we sat down and we talked about it, obviously, as soon as all this started, as a company, and we're the leadership team. Really, one of the things that they came up with is what matters in crisis, actually, is the core principles. The core principles are what matter even more. It's almost like it's a fire that burns off all the extraneous stuff, and you need the essentials of leadership and of business the most, and you have the least margin of error, in a way, in that sense. And in times of plenty, you can get away with maybe not paying good enough attention to some of your employees, or not planning ahead enough in terms of staffing or wasting a little money here and there on things that didn't work. But in times of crisis, all of that becomes a lot more difficult to do. You don't have that margin of error anymore.
- I really like the way you phrase that, because I think it's super important. You and I were talking before I hit record on this, that when things are going really well, it's really easy to be like, our culture is great, or I'm a fantastic leader, because you're not being "tested" in any way, and "tested" in air quotes. But it's just easy, 'cause there is that margin for error. There's a little bit of padding going on, so it's not that big a deal. But as soon as there's change or challenge of any type, it comes right down to those core principles, the core values you're making your decision from, the actual clarity of expectations and outcomes that you have. And when you have that clarity of who I am as a leader, what actually matters to me, what my values are, having that is the key to thriving through, and at the end of, any kind of change or challenge.
- Yeah, and as the challenge started to happen, the other thing that I realized, I'm a fairly optimistic person in general, and I enjoy challenges. While I don't love what's happening with the pandemic, obviously, I still have this point of view that in the middle of challenge there's always opportunity. And I realized, in a very real way, in this experience as a new leader, what that meant. And, for me, that was that everything is in stark contrast now. When people are unhappy at work, you know they're unhappy and you know it quickly. They're on shorter fuses, they have less patience, they are more tired. So everything happens almost more immediately. And in some ways, as a new leader, that's great, because the feedback loop I get to experience doesn't take weeks or months. I don't wait to find out three months from now that this employee has been unhappy for three months. I know in three days, because they're just already operating at less than full capacity. So, in a way, that's been a great opportunity for me to get to know a lot more about each team member, to really know what their boundaries are and how well they're really taking care of themselves in their personal lives, the things that actually bother them come right to the surface right away, and that's in some ways been very good, very useful.
- I imagine it also comes with these very specific challenges in having those things be as close to the surface as they are.
- Yeah, my approach for dealing with that, initially, was a reaffirmation that I had to take care of myself and show up as my best self, because it is very trying. It takes a lot, because people aren't being as friendly as usual sometimes, or their patience is short, and they're maybe a little bit more irritable and behavior in meetings is a little less professional sometimes because who knows what's going on in their personal life, that's really distracting them, or can even be traumatic. They could have a grandparent who's in the hospital, you don't know. But I knew that if I am going to deal with this, the very first thing I have to do is to make sure I don't sacrifice my own, kinda cliche, "self", but the temptation was, and these are maybe part of the old scripts that I learned as a kid about leaders. I always pictured leaders as workaholics first and foremost, for sure, and also, always having the answers. And so, kind of that black and white type of thing, So the first temptation was, well, I gotta get up an hour earlier every morning to deal with this. I need to stay an hour later. I need to cut my private personal time activities down. But the reality is I need to keep those, and prioritize those, because if I don't show up energetic, compassionate, patient, insightful, present, then that's when, really, it hits the fan.
- It's interesting how many us have that script that leaders have all the answers and they are workaholics, and that if you're a leader, it's gonna take up all your time, that's all you're doing. And I think that it's interesting, because in challenging times, in crisis times, when times have changed, whatever language you wanna put around it, transitioning times, I think it is really difficult for leaders to not think that everyone expects them to have the answer, and to be okay with saying, I don't know what this is going to look like, but we're all in it together. Which is often all that people wanna hear.
- It is, especially now, because what is the defining characteristic of this pandemic? It's uncertainty, and they don't want any more. They've got enough of that in their lives right now. So you're right, now that I look back on it, people are asking me more questions where they're asking for definitive answers. And I'm very comfortable in uncertainty. Just in terms of my personality, I'm a very flexible, open person, and that's not a hard thing for me. But there are people in our company where that is a very difficult thing, a very draining thing for them to deal with that uncertainty. And it has been a challenge, because I absolutely don't have the answers, and I'm new to full-time leadership, and not new to the principles, but new to how I use them. And so I need time to settle in the position. And we've had to all, as a company, have conversations about the things we're going through. Even before the crisis, we were going through a huge organizational development transition with the EOS system, where we're implementing a new organizational chart and people's roles are changing, and salary questions come up. So we were already in a bit of turmoil before all of this, and we had to start having conversations around the fact that this is going to be uncomfortable, and what are we gonna do when it's uncomfortable, and there's gonna be conflict, and how are we gonna deal with that interpersonal conflict? And there are gonna be areas that are just hard to answer, and how are we gonna approach that as a leadership team? How are we going to make decisions differently than we've made them before? Because, frankly, three years ago, we didn't have a leadership team. We were five people, and we just all did everything.
- They're really important questions to ask, and finding that balance between where you can provide certainty for people. And certainly is just them feeling safe. It's that idea that nothing is ever certain, so it's a fallacy under the best of circumstances, but for some people, they feel safe inside of it, and they feel like this is the thing that they need. So in times like this, where there is so much uncertainty, it is that, how do you find that balance between providing them with enough certainty or stability or safety inside of where you can provide that, whether it's the boundaries of a job, whether it's the boundaries of an expectation, whether it's the boundaries of something else, while still being vulnerable and open enough to acknowledge that there is all of this that I have no certainty about, and no one does. And I can't provide that for you, because we're playing in this unknown together.
- Yeah, well, one thing is that, just in the same way that I realized I needed self care, so I could deal with all this, I realized after the first few weeks of COVID that, we're already 100% virtual company. So there was this temptation for all of us to think, oh, we're not affected by this. Our workload didn't go down because we don't have commutes that we have been spending time on, but now we have that time back. Our work went up, our workload went up. And then, about two weeks into this, when everyone was getting really quite testy, and there were some issues happening, and I realized that I'm being very conscious about my self care, I wonder if everyone else is. And so I kind of reached out and asked people about it. And also just realized, dealing with COVID just takes time. Just listening to the news and trying to make sense of the news alone takes an actual number of minutes out of every single day. And getting on Zoom and talking to your family every day, or your friends, takes time, and people just needed more time. So I just decided to create some space, because where people don't have the ability to deal with the uncertainty, then maybe what they can do is they can, and this is part of what we do as a company anyway, as a health and wellness company, they can build better resilience, and build better stores of personal energy, and sleep better, and have time to meditate more, not less. So we use Slack, which is an instant chat tool, and it can be very disruptive. So we cut Slack out for two half-days a week, no Slacking allowed, to give people a little bit of that calm space to get their work done. And then we decided that, for the next six weeks, people were gonna leave half-day on Friday. So we're just gonna end the day early, give people more time in their week to just deal with their lives and deal with COVID and deal with all this stuff and take care of themselves. The temptation initially was we've gotta do more because we're afraid that our company is not gonna survive. We've gotta double down, we've gotta work harder. My personal temptation to cut my sleep, the company temptation to make everyone do more. But the answer we came up with was actually to do less, and prioritize self care, so that people could have that sense of calm and security, and people can be effective when they come to work, even if it's shorter hours.
- The thing that immediately stands out to me is that that's the approach of a people-first company, where your people are your priority, and what is best for them is the most important thing. Because at the end of the day, your company won't last, no company is gonna last, if your people aren't there to run the company. Doesn't make a difference how great your product is, I mean, it doesn't, the people start everything. And so by really taking that step back to say, how do I take care of myself, and then how do I enable my people to take care of themselves, is a big differentiator between companies, I think, that kind of revert back into that command and control, get more done, produce, produce, produce, produce, mindset right now, versus companies that are saying, hold on, we have to survive this in order to thrive at the end of it. How do we take care of our people so that they feel that commitment, they feel that loyalty, they feel that we care about them and we're helping them right now, not hindering them.
- Yeah, and we're lucky in the sense that we already had some of this built into our culture. One of the principles we adopted early on was the principle of psychological safety, because as a virtual company, we tend to attract people who don't gravitate towards that corporate environment. And so they're the kind of people who don't wanna put on that work mask and go to a place where they're part of themselves. They want to just be their whole selves. And we're also a health and wellness company, which isn't just about physical health. It's about mental health, it's about emotional health. And so we adopted that policy, that we really want people to come to work and be their whole selves. And that means you have to accept a certain amount of messiness, and you have to accept that people are people. So we have a very flexible scheduling, and we try to give people a lot of trust and a lot of autonomy, they're working at home. We institute a couple of policies that allow them to really generally feel psychologically safe, to be that whole person at work. Just simple things like, there was a good article from Harvard Business Review, I think it was about Google. This is where I learned about the psychological safety principle. I'm sure there's lots of places that talk about it. Little things like, at the beginning of every meeting, we let people share a piece of personal and professional news, not just a piece of work news. Every week, on Slack, we are paired up with coffee chat partners, and you're not allowed to talk about work for 30 minutes. You meet one of your coworkers that you haven't met within, that cycles around, and you spend just strictly personal time with that person. We have channels in Slack where, we have a recipe channel, we have an exercise channel. We have a COVID-19 channel, so that if you don't wanna talk about it, you don't have to go to that channel. If you do want to talk about it, you can get support. We have a gratitude channel where every day we just put in stuff there, we have different kinds of ways of talking about what we're grateful for every day. That actually has become, I would say that if I were to point to one thing that has been the best for us, the best tactic for us to stay sane and productive and connected as a company, it's that gratitude channel, honestly. It may sound a little New Age and froofy just compared to some of what the business world talks about, but it's kept us verbal and connected and and authentic and focused on the good.
- This is not the most timeless comment I'm gonna make, but it's timely for our conversation. Coursera has put Yale's "Science of Well-Being" course on their platform, and not surprisingly, at some point they talk about gratitude in there.
- Mm hmm.
- Because it does create positivity, it does redirect our energy and our focus, and whether it is not necessarily the most traditional business thing to be focused on. And yet we know from a well-being human perspective, it's massively important. And it has shown up in history in lots of different ways. You think about people saying grace over dinner for years, or meals, or whatever it is, and that's a form of gratitude. It doesn't make a difference to the religion or the culture, it shows up. And nowadays, because business has become a religion, from a grand societal perspective, we strip that out. So it is no surprise to me at all that you having this channel is such a source of positivity and well-being for your people, because that's what gratitude does.
- Yeah, and just lucky for us, we're a small enough company that it's fairly easy for us to institute. There's only 30 of us. I can't speak to how you would protect all of these things. It'll be an interesting challenge as we grow, and I'm curious to see how we handle it, but how you protect all of these things and genuinely create psychological safety and allow a whole person to come to work and promote self care and autonomy and all of the things. I've been following Matt Mullenweg recently, the founder of WordPress and the owner of Automattic, because his company has been 100% virtual always, and they've got something over 1000 or 1100 employees worldwide or something like that. So he has a lot of really amazing ideas about how you scale that kind of connectedness and people-first values and autonomy. And there's also, for us, a big element of just feeling purposeful and meaningful, having meaningful work and feeling a sense of purpose, because as a wellness company, that's one of the things that we also promote. It's not just about what you eat and how you sleep. It's how you deal with stress. It's the quality of your social connections. It's the emotional side of things. We're not necessarily a conventional health company, we're a holistic health approach, that's based on lifestyle. So we're lucky in that sense that we already valued all of those things coming into the gate, but I think that now, when you get to a crisis, I think those things are essential. Even if they're not part of the scripts that I've learned from business books, when I was in 20s and 30s and reading a bunch of those. But going back to what I said at the very beginning, I think what COVID or a crisis like this does is force you to those essentials. And, to me, that's what those essentials are that we're being forced back to, is that people are human beings and you have to have healthy, happy, purposeful, well, human beings in order to have a company that's also well.
- I could not agree more, and I'm really curious about your perspective, from that holistic health perspective that you have because of the business you're in. And I know, we were speaking before, that there's an element of functional medicine inside of it, which is very much focused on holistic health, mental, physical, emotional, the whole thing. So from your perspective, what are you seeing as the challenges that leaders are having because they're lacking that balance?
- Well, I would say probably the biggest thing that I see is a kind of scrambling to find a new, special, shiny tactic that's gonna work. And this idea that you actually abandon the core principles, because there is some special way you can do it. And this isn't just a thing during crisis, I don't think. Having been in marketing my whole career, this is also very typical of marketing leaders. It's this idea, or maybe more typical of marketing gurus, but this idea that there's this new special way to do it that's gonna work better than ever. And I've always had more of a approach that, to marketing and also now it's to leadership, of four principles approach, what are the tried and true foundational elements? If you look right down to the Maslow pyramid of human needs, and you look at psychology and how people really function, and all of those kinds of core foundational, scientific, but foundational principles, as opposed to the next shiny tactic, is to me the direction you wanna turn and look in interest to, as opposed to turning and looking at the special, here's the seven things you've never done before, but now you should be doing for some reason.
- I love that you said that. I was in a workshop a week and a half ago that Seth Godin was speaking in, and he's one of those marketing groups who does not believe in the next shiny thing. And he said in that workshop that there is a reason that he uses email marketing still as his primary way of marketing, that he doesn't jump on Facebook ads, that he doesn't jump on all these other things that feel more flash in the pan or feel temporary. That he's like, I'm not opposed to trying new things, I'm not opposed to finding a better way to do things, and I also know that there are some core things that work, it's the analogy of the core principles, that I'm gonna keep doing and come back to because it all starts with that knowing.
- Yeah.
- So when you were talking about market, I was just like, oh, it's so interesting, because Seth Godin is such a marketing guru, but he doesn't have that same, what's the next shiny, he doesn't have shiny object syndrome.
- No, he's one of my favorites, for sure. Been following him for a long time, feel an affinity for his philosophy, for sure.
- Yeah, as soon as you said, I was like, oh, it's a really interesting analogy for me. So many people are under stress under the best of times, so I say this acknowledging that there's a lot of people who struggle with stress and who struggle with the effects of stress under perfect weather, all ships sailing, clearly, whatever analogy you want, whatever metaphor you wanna use, times, let alone now.
- Mm hmm.
- I'm wondering how people can manage that stress right now, or how you recommend where they even start to look at it. Because I think that, for some people, this might be the first time that they're even acknowledging that they're feeling stress, because it's just different than their everyday stress.
- Yeah, even our own company, our own team, at first thought, oh, we're good, we're fine. Because we work at home, and we're lucky, and we shouldn't feel bad. But the reality is we were still impacted, and we had to acknowledge that we were actually experiencing that impact and then take steps to process that and deal with that stress, that added stress in our lives. We're lucky, in a way, because, from the beginning, we have been dealing with people with chronic illness. So functional health is a lot about getting to the root cause of a chronic illness. So even though we also speak to people who just have symptoms that are getting in the way of their life and aren't really chronically ill, we are very familiar with the chronically ill population. And, in a way, that's people who are in crisis. So we already know, we've spent a lot of time, dealing with people who are in crisis and thinking about all the holistic picture of how they get out of that crisis. Not just how they reverse their symptoms of their illness, but how they do that by addressing more than just what conventional medicine would tell you you need to address, which is just your physical body, or that's about it. They don't even talk about nutrition hardly at all, even with something that's clearly related to nutrition, like, say, diabetes. So I would say that based on our experience with the chronically ill population, and knowing how they deal with stress, that you could take a functional wellness approach. So, a lot of people don't know what functional health is, out there, but just think of it as basically the most basic, here we are, again, talking about, revert to the core principles, the very most basic things, like, are you sleeping seven and a half or eight hours a night, or enough, for whatever enough is for you? Is your food nutritious? Does it actually have the nutrients in it? Is it nutrient-dense, or is it filling but lacking in any actual kind of substantial nutrition, which is a lot of food in America today. Also, social connections in times of COVID is especially, normally, I think people neglect their social connections, even before COVID, but now that we're in COVID, they've become even more important, because that social network has been proven in research to be a significant factor in the development of chronic illness, in the development of chronic stress, in the development of mental illness, is the quality of those social connections that people have with each other. Some surprising things, outdoor time in nature. You've probably heard, in some countries in Asia, like in Japan, they have this idea of forest bathing. That's actually founded in actual science and real research that shows the impact of that not only on your mental health, but your physical health, actual physical symptoms, your brain health. Going back around to nutrition. Another thing that people don't often realize, it diminishes their capacity to deal with stress. So a lot of this, when we're talking about functional medicine, is about your capacity to deal with the stress, not about reducing the actual stress itself, right?
- [Celine] Right.
- A lot of people don't think about the fact that gut health is probably the number one thing that can turn all of that around, and it can build that resilience and that capacity, physiologically, in your body. And there are simple things that people can do to change the way they eat, to change their gut health. Supplementation, perhaps different foods, cutting some things out, cutting back on some things. I've been wondering, with this COVID situation, if like say people's sugar intake and alcohol intake actually increased. And while that's something people do, maybe even without thinking, to deal with stress, it's actually having the opposite effect on your capacity to deal with stress. The sugar is not going to help you in terms of your ability to deal with stress, your blood sugar being erratic is gonna make you feel even more incapacitated by those ups and downs and mood swings. And then the alcohol of course can wreak havoc with your gut health and the gut health leads to all kinds of other things, and disrupts your sleep, and it's like a whole cascade of very simple, basic things. Sleep, nutrition, movement. That's another thing, people aren't going to the gym anymore, so how do you get in your movement? So, sleep, movement, nutrition, social connection, nature, basic stuff. But that is, to me, to us as a company, that is the answer.
- I love the way that you categorize into the five categories. I think that's a really easy way to think about it and even for people to start. And I recognize it's not necessarily the whole way to deal with stress, but to start thinking about, am I doing these things every day or every week? So, you say that list, and I was like, oh boy. I live in a big city, downtown. I'm one of those people that I cannot wrap my brain around going for a walk just for the sake of going for a walk. So I am definitely not getting outside nearly as much as I could. I am working out at home to the best of my ability. I am doing other things, and probably have too much social connection. I swear I'm on more Zoom calls with friends now than I would ever see them in person ever. But the one thing I'm definitely not doing enough of is that, so even from that list, I can think, okay, so what can I do to change that one piece? Because if that's the thing that will give me an even better capacity to deal with everything right now, then what is my commitment to changing that or improving that or getting outside at all?
- Yeah, and there are, of course, also things you can do to deal with stress, and adjust your capacity, that influence your capacity. In our course, we train health coaches, and they deal with people with behavior change, because all of those things we just talked about, how you eat, how you sleep, how you move, those are all hard to change because it's hard to develop habits. So one of the things we talk about in our course is mindfulness and meditation. If you're not into meditation, you can just call it mindfulness. I think there's a misconception out there, with a lot of people, anyway, that it's very difficult to do, or that it's boring to do, or I have to just do it for like an hour a day, or it's somehow like New Age-y. But even just the idea of mindfulness is really just about being present and noticing what's happening and focusing your attention on what's in front of you, as opposed to maybe your worries or your fears about the future all the time or the negative things that are genuinely happening to you, and also kind of maybe circles around to that gratitude case. So that mindfulness and gratitude practice are actually pretty invaluable in terms of dealing with stress in our community.
- I agree, and I think that's a really powerful reminder, because some people do have that idea that meditation or mindfulness is "woo", or too alternative. or whatever, and I think having it be that it's really about being present, and even just starting there, if that's what you're gonna do, I think it's a great reminder for people.
- Yeah, but what was personally effective for me when this COVID thing hit, I was already feeling pretty stressed about being a new leader and having so much organizational change at the time as well. And so I realized I was literally feeling wound up. Normally, I think I would have felt wound up for a day or two of work. You might get a little wound up, like you need a break, but I was feeling wound up multiple times. So all I did was increase my own meditation practice. I only do five minutes of meditation, but I do it three times a day. And, for me, it's very successful in just winding me back down, getting me to that calm place where I can be present for people, and where I can bring myself to my leadership role.
- I think that's a great reminder. And I agree with you, I'm a big proponent of mindfulness and meditation. It doesn't have to be an hour to make it effective, at all. And I'm always trying to dispel that myth. So I appreciate you doing that, 'cause I think it's really valuable. Before we wrap this up, I wanna ask the broad question, which is, is there anything that we didn't get to that you'd like to explicitly call out, or something that you wanna leave people with at the end of this conversation as sort of being top of mind?
- I think we covered a lot of ground and a lot of really core foundational principles. And to me, that's the takeaway for me personally, in this situation, is thinking about and identifying what makes the people in my company healthy and well and happy and whole, because I already know they wanna be here. They're passionate about what we're doing at work. They're all very committed and engaged. But just like I need to take care of myself, so I can really show up, and be present, and be able to listen, they need the same thing. And going back to those core principles of health and some of them can require you to take counter-intuitive measures, in terms of the business context. Work less, not more, sleep more, don't get up early. Don't drink three extra glasses of wine at night to cope with the stress, but maybe sit down and meditate instead for 20 minutes. So I think that that's the takeaway for me, is taking care of the person, and in a core foundational principles way.
- I think that's the perfect takeaway. I wanna thank you for taking the time to chat with me today. In the show notes, there will be links to learn more about Jon and his business. And I really appreciate you, and I appreciate this conversation.
- Thanks, and I'll just also mention that if people want some more personal COVID advice and information, our website has a thousand articles. They're all free. They're all covering all of those five elements of just basic health. And you can just go there and you can find the things that help you out, and that'll be in the show notes there at chriskresser.com.
- Absolutely, well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you.
- Thank you Celine.
- [Voiceover] Thanks for listening to us talk around leadership in challenging times. If you would like to learn more about us or any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca. If you like the show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts from.