Crisis is never over until the reactions subside.” In this episode of the podcast we are talking, specifically, about leadership behaviors during a crisis or change – and which ones are particularly important – with today’s guest, John Robertson.
In this episode of the podcast, Workforce Wellness and Culture Alignment Specialist, John Robertson, talks to us about facing crisis or change head-on. He provides a lot of great visuals around leading through crisis or change and makes some interesting observations about today’s workplace and workforce.
We get into:
- The Hot Water/Tea Bag Effect
- Having a Values-Anchored Culture
- The Difference Between Like and Trust
- Why Passion is Important
- What “Run Toward the Roar” Means
- Why the Covid Crisis Isn’t Over (and What to Do About It)
“We’re not ‘going back to normal,’” John says. “We have to define it.”
Leaders are in a golden position to help themselves and their people thrive right now. This conversation is a great reframe/place to start. I hope you’ll join us in ‘running toward the roar’.
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Inspired and driven by his values, John acts as a facilitator for his clients as they test, discover, and expand what they can do. He uses concrete, verifiable processes to help them achieve demonstrable, solution-focused results. Remaining faithful to his passions and values, John invests himself in his vocation without reservation and provides spirit-filled, insightful guidance that his clients use to amplify their lives and businesses.
John truly provides “leadership that people can follow through storms.”
As a workforce wellness and culture alignment specialist, John works with progressive [forward-thinking] leadership to transform their traditional crisis response to:
- Creating a culture where people want to work
- Developing the leadership people trust, and want to follow
- Preparing people to know how to thrive, not just be resilient
This is done through his values-anchored Run Toward the Roar ethos – because business works when people thrive!
John’s education and certifications include Certified Coach, MHCC’s The Working Mind, Advisor in National Standard for Psychological H&S in the Workplace, Grief Resolution Specialist, Trauma Treatment Specialist, numerous psychometric tools & assessments, and a Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees from Queen’s University.
You can learn more at https://runtowardtheroar.online/ and http://fortlog.co/revisionary/.
- I'm Céline Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is John Robertson, who acts as a facilitator and guide as a workforce wellness and cultural alignment specialist working with progressive leadership to transform their traditional crisis response through the values anchored run towards the roar ethos. Welcome John.
Hi, thank you so much for allowing me to be part of supporting you and your audience. This is great. I look forward to our conversation.
As do I and I love that already, in your bio you have the word crisis, which is always exciting for me 'cause I know there's gonna be a lot of alignment here, so.
It's like anything, right Céline, there's two responses to crisis. Run towards it or the fear-based reaction. So those of us who run towards it automatically have a natural affinity. So I was looking forward to this meeting as well.
Yeah, it's easy to avoid the topic and run away from it, right? I think a lot of people naturally do that. So when it's part and parcel and upfront, I agree with you, there's often you're like, "Oh these are my people who are looking at this head on," so I'm excited about this.
And don't forget because crisis is never really the event or the event is never really the crisis, change can actually be a crisis for some.
So I love that you went there 'cause I was gonna ask the question, I always start with, which is, you know, what does leading through crisis mean to you? And it sounds like, part and parcel of that is this idea that change, that crisis isn't one single definition.
No. And so first of all, the event is never the real crisis or the crisis is never the event. But the second part of it that I call hot water teabag effect is leadership's whole approach through crisis or change is entirely different than any other form of leadership. And the hot water teabag effect is if we ever wanna find out what's important to a person or an organization, put them in hot water, just like a teabag, what's inside always leaks out.
I love that analogy. I have not heard that. And I think it is brilliant 'cause I think of, I do a lot of work with culture and you know, the thing that I always say to organizations is, your culture is not what's happening when things are going well, it is, but that's not the test of your culture. It's really easy to be like, we are in alignment with our values and everything works really well and people are performing at their best when things are easy and they're going well. But you really see your culture when shit hits the fan for lack of a better way of putting it. That's when you see what is really happening, how people really behave, how your values are actually in action. That's the test of it. And it's, the analogy of the hot water teabag is exactly, that's exactly it.
And I'm not a tea drinker, though I've learned to become one. It's not, it's, what do they call that? It's an acquired taste. It's not a natural taste. But that said, one of the things that happens with teabags is it's called steeping. And the longer an organization refuses to deal with crisis change, the longer the teabag steeps and the values that are not on the website, but the ones that everybody operates by leak out and it permeates through the entire organization. And ironically it flavors just like tea, it flavors everything, but very few will tell the leadership what the flavor is. And go ahead, I was just rambling.
No you were not.
I was rambling.
And one of the things with leadership that's key, and I use this over and over and over, if I believe I'm a leader, look behind, if nobody's following, I'm just taking a walk. And one of the things that happens through crisis and change is, and I love what, what's his name? "Managing Through Transition," William Bridges. I love how he describes, he uses Moses leading the people out of Egypt through the, to the promised land, but through the wilderness, through the desert. And he said the key of leadership is, MBWA, Moses been walking around and Moses visited the family campfires. And one of the things that happens through change or crisis, people have to see you, me, the leader, walking around. And that doesn't mean like, you know, if, okay yeah, I'm touching in on you, Céline how are you doing? And checking the watch and checking the count. Everybody knows you got a full schedule. Everybody knows we're busy. But if I don't know that you care, you can forget about me caring 'cause it's not gonna happen. And that happens by the water cooler, coffee pot, conversations to say, let me illustrate a perfect, so I was doing some work with an organization and their leader, she ghost, the expression in everyday language is she ghosted me. And it was like, this is really weird. That's not like her, and I'm gonna call her Suzanne, it's not her name, but Suzanne ghosted me. And so I texted her, I called her, I emailed her, never heard a word. And then I called her colleague, nothing was said. Then I called her supervisor. So the big boss, manager, whatever the title is, and I said, "Listen, I am not calling because bills or consulting or any of that stuff, it's not like Suzanne not to reply. What's going on?" "Well she's off on sick leave." "Okay, thank you. I appreciate that." So I left it for a couple, three weeks and I touched in on this leader and I said, "So just checking in." And she called me within, I'm gonna say five minutes. "Wow. John, I cannot believe you emailed me." "Why? What did I do?" "No, I'm sure you've heard." "No, I haven't talked to anybody. Heard what?" She said, "Suzanne just died on Saturday. She was off on sick leave for cancer." I said, "I never heard a word." I said, "Wow, you guys have to be spinning because your work, you can't, your staff can't get time off to go to the funeral." 'Cause they do childcare stuff as well. And she said, "No we can't and actually that's starting to create an anger." Do you hear the evolution of crisis? Sick leave, nobody talks. Like if you break a leg, Céline, people are all over you. "How are you doing? Can I drop off a meal?" Yada ya. If I say sick leave, it's like I catch leprosy. And it doesn't mean we're talking work, but we are talking care. And I said, "You know what? Let the staff know I have to be driving by. It's two hours outta my way, but let me know 'cause I can swing by, stop in to see their workplace at the end of day Thursday. Lets you and I have a follow up call Friday and offer a virtual meeting Friday end of day. Because if they go into the weekend and nobody's supporting them, they're gonna come back to work Monday angry. And right now is not the time to try and be hiring staff. Nobody's available." And my grandma's expression was, "What we are speaks so loudly, people don't hear what we're saying."
I like that.
And while grandma's wisdom and no grandchild in their right mind would disagree with grandma. And so what's happening and because the event is never the real crisis, one of the things that leaders have to do is we have to change it from what I call accountability discussions, productivity, performance, policy, procedures, the 'P' culture and paperwork, and make it a round of values anchored culture, which is the runt toward the roar ethos. So, you know, do I want people to like me or do I want people to trust me? 'Cause there will be a choice in there at some point. And let me turn the tables. If you were working with an organization that did not know you, that they said, "So who is this Ms. Williams?" And I don't even know what the proper preface is anymore, but whatever is, how would you like people to think of you non physically? Any thoughts, any initial gut reactions?
Oh, what I would want people to think of me? And I'm assuming in a, I mean I don't know that it's that, I was gonna say in a professional setting and I was like, I don't actually know that it's that different in a nonprofessional setting to be totally fair.
It's not, and you're picking up on,
I know.
you're stealing one of my bolts of thunder.
Oh, sorry.
You're absolutely, and that's what. No, not at all. Not at all. Because I think it was John Maxwell, but somebody once said, "There's no such thing as business ethics." Me at the soccer pitch, me at the hockey rink, me at church, me at work, me at the restaurant, doesn't matter. It better be the same reflection of the person.
Yeah.
So I'm giving your brain time now to think about, how would you respond to that?
I mean, I think I would want people to, you know, what you said about being trustworthy, I think I want people to feel, to be comfortable with me and think this is someone who is open-minded and I can speak to, and this is a safe space that's always really important that for me, I would like them to think that I am direct and mean what I say. And, there's no, I'm gonna use the word manipulation, that's an extreme word, but there's no manipulation or anything behind it that I'll say what I mean, that I know what I'm talking about. That one's questionable most of the time. But I would like people to think that I know what I'm talking about.
I hear you, if you can't dazzle with brilliance.
And that, you know, I hate the word nice, so I would use the word kind, that I care about people and am kind in my approach. So I could go on about why I hate the term nice and why I think it's problematic. But I think kindness and starting with kindness and compassion is really important. So I, you know.
And so what you're picking up on is a keyword, compassion. Because there was a song, and I'm dating myself now, which some might say is the only way I get a date. But there was an old song by Nick Lowe that said, "Cruel to be kind in the right measure." And what you've perfectly described is we get caught in being nice, but we're not actually being compassionate. We're emphasizing sympathy, which is really pity. And we're not growing empathy, which is compassion. And the run toward the roar ethos is passion based. So the two current terms out of that ethos is is the root word of passion. It's the fire in the bones, it's something we want so much, it hurts. is the root word of fidelity, of faithfulness, of loyalty. When you and I define what we are for, not what we're against, which tends to be the society culture right now, I don't like this, I don't like that, I didn't ask you that. What are you for? You just answered some of yours. You know, that speaks your mind. That is trustable, but credible is it's some of those qualities and one of the things that happens when we are faithful or loyal or with passion is people will know that, yeah, you may not wanna cross that line with Céline because she may not take that really well that's gonna force her to swallow one of her values.
Right.
And you being direct and some of those other qualities won't just pretend, oh no big deal. It will be, Yeah, Houston, we've got a problem.
Yep.
And when we talk abouts if you are playing a game that you love and you get injured, you will find a way to get back in the game. If you are playing a game you don't enjoy, any injury takes us out. It's the perfect excuse. Well, I injured my knee, I'm out, guess what's happening in work. If I'm not if I'm not loving what I do, any injury will take me out. And there's a woman that I know, I've done some work with, she is working right now in a culture that is not healthy, not positive, not constructive. And yet when I say, so why don't you just look at leaving? I just love the people I work with and you know, we share the same work ethic, we share the same values. No, we're unified in how we deal with dumb all around us, but we are all on the same page and I love that. There you go.
Yeah.
And so to your, to your listeners it would be that okay, does the leader take the time to say, so what's really going on for you? And we're not talking about joining hands, singing "Kumbaya," but when we add the prefix, which means with, com, C-O-M, when we add the prefix with, compassion, we actually get people who say, wow, Céline actually stopped at the water cooler and last week you mentioned you were doing hockey tryouts, how did that go for your child? And it doesn't take anything. Use your calendar to make a note to say John's kid trying out for soccer Tuesday night. It gives you something to follow up.
Yeah.
And that leaks out in hot water. It's called trust.
Yeah, it's, okay, I have a few questions and I love that you just said trust, 'cause one of the things that you said earlier was that at some point there's a choice between like me or trust me.
Yeah.
And I'm curious if you can ex, and I wanna, I'm curious if you can explain what you mean by that. Because I do think that a lot of, not even leaders, human beings on this planet think that if someone likes me, they're automatically going to trust me. And it's more important that I am likable and palatable than anything else. And it's-
Let me jump right in 'cause you know who does this worst, is Canadians. 'Cause when I do training with Canadians, when they say, "Sorry, I will do that." Are you really sorry, or are you just saying sorry, because you're Canadian? Well you're right, I'm not sorry. Then why are you saying it?
Yeah. Yep.
So when we talk about it, look at what we're apologizing for. We live right now in a time, some people call it cancel culture, I don't care what you call it. Call it potato picking culture for all I care. But we live in a time right now where people are all telling us what they don't like, what they don't agree with, what they're against, on and on and on. If we're going to build a workplace where people want to work and leaders that are trustable, followable and respectable, then we have to define what we are for. And that will automatically impact niceness. Like if I'm not literally, but if you are for European football, my Freudian on that. If you are for European football, but I'm for North American football, Canadian or American, we can have a great discussion about being teams, but we're not gonna be able to play on the same field at the same time.
Right.
And having that discussion around what does it mean for here, why should somebody want to work here? One of the questions I've, when I do coaching around this kinda thing, I get them, when you have the opportunity to ask your questions, ask them, apart from money, why would someone want to work here? And even personalities who are so accommodating what you and I were just chatting about, nice, love the look on their face and they always do the, "Wow, that's a great question." And okay, your final answer? And so I, what does it mean to be trust? It means transparency. It's that sharing success, it's that truth telling, which is where the niceness runs into problems. You know, which is more loving? And this is the key for me, look back to the term of love, which is more loving? If you and I have been friends for 20 years and I know that your pattern of behavior is taking you down a toilet bowl flush, which is more loving? For me to pat you on the back and say, "Well she needs to learn, she will learn." Or for me to run the risk and saying, "Hey, just wanna make an observation. You may not like me, but I'm just saying what I'm seeing. Is that what you want me to see?"
Yep.
And what do you call it? Parenting, and some people say that today's workplace is kinda like parenting sometimes, yeah. 'Cause that's what it means to care.
It's, that's really interesting that workplace is like parenting. I can definitely, I can absolutely see that. And it's, I think the place that, I see this a lot coming up and I love that you brought up the word love inside of this is in terms of people, I'm gonna call it giving feedback feed forward, whatever you wanna call it. Where we avoid the conversation or leaders avoid the conversation because they don't wanna, you know, and it's not only leaders, everyone avoids giving any kind of feedback because they don't want to, Canadians probably more than anyone. They don't wanna be mean, they don't wanna hurt someone's feelings, they don't wanna, you know, whatever their, they don't wanna be the bad guy in the situation, whatever the scenario is, and I have spoken about this, ad nauseum, which is, in my opinion, if you care about someone and you are giving this information for them to be their best self, this is not about you saying I would do it differently 'cause I like things done differently, that's not feedback. That doesn't matter.
That's not feedback.
Toss that. But if you're looking at someone and going, this is not, they're not having the impact that they think they're having and this is not them being their best self and you wanna give them that feedback, you avoiding it is not you loving and caring for them. It's only you protecting yourself. And that is to me where we get stuck in the, it's an example of where we get stuck in the, it's more important to be nice than to do something that actually in increases trust.
And what we're actually saying is the value of nice is higher or greater than the value of trust. They're both values.
Yeah.
And so the way that I illustrate that is when we're giving feedback around growing trust and credibility, is picture a rock in the pond. The rock into the pond is the relationship. 'Cause every interaction creates a ripple. That moment of relationship impacts beliefs and thoughts. So if you meet me and say, holy smokes, Robertson is all about him. Immediate belief and thought or that supervisor, well it's all about him or her, immediate belief and thought. Therefore that person's values, which is the next ripple, will be seen through that previous ripple of beliefs and thoughts. So if you're my supervisor and I believe you're out to get me, my values will reflect that my supervisor's out to get me. The final ripple is behavior. 'Cause our behaviors always reflect our values always. If I value money, I'm the easiest person in the world to negotiate with. If I value nice, then you can see what my behavior's gonna be. When we give observation aka feedback, it has to be on the behavior and then ask, can you help me to understand where that's coming from, why that's important for you? Basically ask about the values, the beliefs and thoughts and that strengthens the relationship.
Yes, I think it's, I appreciate the way you frame that as the beliefs and thoughts, values and behavior because, you know, I see this a lot, this very common in corporate culture, which is when we're giving feedback or making observations, we assume the values or the beliefs and thoughts behind it. And we feed that into even what we'll tell people about themselves without acknowledging it. And I think there is a really, it's an important difference to even say I, you know, to acknowledge an assumption, right? Like here's the behavior. I assume that your intentions were, if you acknowledge it, even acknowledging that it's an assumption is a big difference between speaking or between that and speaking as though it's a given fact. Which is the thing that so many of us do is we just, this is the truth because I think it's the truth.
Absolutely, and you know, the irony and tragic irony is appreciation works the exact same way.
Absolutely.
If we catch somebody doing something of value without blowing sunshine and kissing rings on fingers and all the other garbage that goes with it. But just saying, hey really wanna thank you for that help of that report. Awesome, and then leave 'cause they'll blow it off.
Yep, yep. I appreciate this conversation around trust and thank you for kind of playing with me inside of that because I think that there's a lot of confusion between liking and trusting. But I do wanna ask, I'm gonna kinda pivot a little bit because you've mentioned run towards the roar a couple of times and I am curious if you can explain what that is a little bit because it's clearly.
A percent.
Thank you.
Let me, no, it's 'cause that tends to be my
Yep.
So when a lion ages, he loses his muscle tone, teeth deteriorate, everything else. And the way a lion keeps his pride is his roar. And when a lion hunts, he'll go to one side of a herd of antelope. The pride will go to the other. Animal instinct when they hear a roar is fight, flight, freeze, appease. So majority of the antelope will run away from the roar, flight, and therefore run into the hunting party. Humans are the only ones that we can train to run toward the roar. And a roar can be fear, a roar can be crisis, a roar can be change, a roar can be cancer, a roar can be job loss, a roar, any number of, promotion. And if we do not determine what our values are when the roar happens, we will react like a normal human being. Fight, flight, freeze, appease. Majority of us will flight or freeze. And so when we talk about run toward the roar, what is our focus? What does success mean? 'Cause the one with the most toys is a lie 'cause wins what? Hearses don't have luggage racks and where there's a will, there's relatives. So if the one with the most toys wins, wins what? So what does success mean? And mine, I want people to be at my funeral for more than my will. There's not gonna be enough to worry about being at my will. But I want people to be there because you know what, John invested in me even when I thought he was a jerk. And the second part of that is what are my values to accomplish that success? And if I don't know what I'm running towards, if I don't know what I'm gonna be then what ends up happening, currents wins. Think about all the factors in our society, trends, all the other things that keep popping up. They will knock us off our course and we'll end up steering by a compass that's got a magnet beside it and we're just spinning, always reacting.
Yeah. That's a, the metaphor of, a metaphor? I don't know that it's technically a metaphor as I say that out loud of run towards the roar or the story runs. Maybe it's not a metaphor.
I'm not an English major, we're more gooder, keep going.
Honestly, I think that's a really valuable visual I think for people to have in mind because it helps kind of cement it. And I appreciate that 'cause that's, when you said that I was like, oh that, I can definitely picture that and that's super valuable. And I wanna ask this question because you said that, you know, humans are the one species, let's call it, that you can train to run towards the roar and you know, knowing your values obviously is a piece of that and knowing what you stand for, what matters to you. But is there anything else that you, and recognizing this is gonna be kind of quick and dirty, that is important to know or be mindful of or something in leaning into running towards the roar. Whether it's, you know, if I'm like, I wanna do more of that, I wanna run towards the, I don't want to be in, you know, flight or freeze or you know, I wanna be able to face that. What can I do? What are some of the things that I should be aware of or I can do to start that process?
Well first of all, that's, and this sounds really self, whatever the term is, patting myself on the back. But that's the premise behind the book. So people can get a copy of the book, contact me, not a problem, but the second part of that is who are the people you want in your boat rowing in the same direction? Because if we don't choose the rowers, it's like driving a vehicle that's out of alignment. Leaders cannot let go of the steering wheel 'cause the organization will be into oncoming traffic or into the ditch. And Jim Collinson, his "Good To Great" said, getting the right people on the bus. My analogy is, and yes it's from a lion and the Sahara to a row boat, but getting the right people in the boat rowing in alignment and that means choose wisely. Don't ask for volunteers. Nowhere do we see evidence that asking for volunteers is the best approach. Pick. But the second part of that is we need coaches, we need mentors, we need consultants, we need counselors 'cause we all have pasts or baggage that can give us a charlie horse to hinder us from moving forward. And that's the premise behind the book of "Run Toward The Roar", because it is walking through those pieces and it doesn't mean they're with us forever, but they can help us get out of an eddy or get off of that sandbar or whatever.
So before we, I'm gonna ask, you know, we'll wrap this and say where people can get the book and all of that good stuff. But before we do that, is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanted to bring up or something that we talked about that you wanted to make sure you emphasized?
Well there's a whole bunch of things 'cause this is kind of a, like you said, dirty, get dirty quick.
Yeah. Quick and dirty.
But, quick and dirty, that, I knew I wasn't ringing right, but quick and dirty.
Yeah.
And one of the things that happens is, and this is, and I'm not talking about COVID, I'm talking about the impact. 'Cause now we've gone from COVID to interest rates to recession talks to all the other things. Those trigger that fear button roar and the crisis is never over until the reactions subside. And as long as these fear triggers, these roars keep happening, then leadership cannot get ready to jump into performance discussions. If people are not aware that, yeah, you know what sucks to be normal human, have a normal fear reaction, however we can run toward the roar and let's get back in the boat and let's grow.
I love that and I also love what you said around crisis is never over until the reactions subside. I think that's, we like the illusion that, oh well you know, this specific thing is done, therefore nothing else to deal with and that's.
So wrong and so wrong. We've done to two and a half years and we're gonna be at least till Christmas before reactions really start bubbling out because I was, you know, everybody during COVID was head down, get through it. Now there was the illusion that when things go back to normal. Yeah, that ship sailed. We're not going back to norm. We have to define it.
Yes, and you know, one of the things that I know I've been saying to people is that normal is an illusion, it was always an illusion. Everyone's normal was different. So you can't say go back to normal, we are just more aware that everyone's normal is different now than we were beforehand. So let's define what we're actually looking for. I've really, I get really frustrated with the go back to normal and I know that's not what you're saying, but like that whole thing, leaders, let's stop doing that. This is my PSA. Let's stop saying let's go back to normal.
And part of which you put your finger on is how do you go back to something that had values that no longer matter?
Correct.
And that's part of what's happening in the workplace today.
Absolutely.
People had two and a half years of saying, is this really gonna matter in five years?
Yep. Yep.
Huge shift.
Absolutely. John, it was a pleasure to talk to you. I really appreciate your time. I'm gonna ask this question, the "Run Towards The Roar," available all the bookstores, people can find it. Is there a specific place you want them to go?
Amazon's the easiest and there's two things. One is runtowardtheroar.online is for the book.
Okay.
My work site and the landing page for this podcast is going to be fortlog. Fort, safe place and frontier. A Log is a journal to sail the seas 'cause there's no point going there alone, fortlog.co. 'cause I work with people not .com, .co and then forward slash revisionary. And I'd love to have a conversation with people. I'm not interested in selling widgets. I just, I wanna help people thrive and our leaders are in a golden position today to help themselves, but also their organizations and people thrive and I'd love to have that conversation, fortlog.co/revisionary. And most importantly, this has been my pleasure. I really appreciate the work that you do and just the investing in your listeners. And so thank you for allowing me to be part of your work. So thank you.
Thank you. It has been a pleasure. And we'll have all the links in the show notes for the listeners to check out as well. So I appreciate you, John. Thank you very much.
Have a great day. Thank you.
[Céline] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.