Today’s guest, Dr. Jim Sellner is no stranger to navigating personal crisis. As a behavioral psychologist and scientist who’s had two kidney transplants, he has a lot of wisdom to share on leading through it and finding the transformation.
In this episode, we talk to Dr. Jim Sellner about navigating (or as he says, surfing) personal crisis, as well as the phases of crisis (and what comes after).
We also get into empathetic communication, healthy confrontation, and some incredibly useful phrases to initiate it.
Coming from a behavioral psychologist and scientist who has navigated two kidney transplants, the wisdom he shares from what he's learned will help us all "use our heartbeats" wisely – if you want to know what that means, you've gotta listen in!
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Dr. Jim’s core purpose is to bring out the genius in you. With over 40 years of experience working with and training countless business leaders and entrepreneurs, his no-nonsense approach and ability to keep things simple inspire changes in behaviors that yield significantly better results.
As EVP, People Analytics & Talent Activation at Vivo Team, Dr. Jim’s team holds multiple gold awards from the internationally renowned Brandon Hall Group.
A respected leader, author, and speaker known for his innovation in people analytics in L&D, he has published many articles and eBooks including “Leadership for Einsteins: How Smart Leaders Bring Out the Genius in People” and “Account-Ability: The Science of Human Performance.”
Having first trained and worked as a city planner, Jim later joined the faculty at the University of British Columbia where he went on to obtain an MA and Ph.D. in psychology. His unique psychological/behavioral perspective provides Vivo Team with a solid, practical philosophy.
You can connect with Jim on LinkedIn (/drjimsellnerphddipc).
I am Celine Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Dr. Jim Sellner, a behavioral scientist who is surfing his own personal crisis of a kidney transplant for the second time. Welcome, Jim.
Oh, good morning. Good day, how are you?
I am doing well, how are you?
I'm doing well, considering.
Considering, well-
Since we're gonna talk about crisis today.
We are, that's right. And I'd love that your intro starts with noting what your personal crisis is, and I'm gonna ask the question I always ask which is topic of the podcast, the title of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis, what comes up for you when you hear that phrase?
Well, a lot of things. As a behavioral psychologist, behavioral scientist, I have dealt with over the years a lot of other people's crises as well as my own. And actually my journey began about 30, when I was about 30 where I was experiencing a personal life crisis. The first one that I was aware of, I think there were other ones, but I ignored them.
Ah, the human condition.
And later on they sort came up, oh, you ignored that one, now you're having this one. And so I met a psychiatrist and a physician who operated in the area of eastern philosophy, acupuncture, and a different way of looking at psychology and psychiatry. And so I met them and I was working with them both as a client and training with them. And I remember those, the psychiatrist saying to me, Jim, when you learn how to become a human being, you'll be great working with people. And so I said, okay, I think I can do that amidst the crisis. So what initiated the crisis was I was a city planner at the time, I was on faculty UBC and I was traveling all over the place. And that time they had first class, there was a lot of drinking and so that wasn't a good thing, marriage breaking up and all that kind of stuff. So I started working with them. And then later on, after I was finished my training, started working with people. And to this point that we're talking about today, in 2012, I almost died because my kidney shut down. I was in the hospital for a long time, I was on dialysis. And a couple of years later had to had a transplant. And that was in 2016. And so getting that transplant created a situation, a crisis,
Mm-hmm.
that you know, initiated a lot of things, both personally and professionally. I had to look at life differently. Now my approach to about crisis is that we will have these crises and as part of the human condition, it's not a problem, it's a hell of a problem when you're in the crisis.
Mm-hmm.
And then if that crisis is the opportunity for transformation, that's the next part. Something happens that's really awful, you transform into some way of thinking, some way of being that I hadn't thought about before. And then there's another part that is the transition. You have the big transformation, but then you're transitioning into a different way of being in life. And that creates for yourself and the people around you an adjustment to that.
Mm-hmm.
And unless you go with that flow, a crisis will kind of hold and stop and you'll be in constant crisis. But if you couldn't go with the flow, what I call surfing the crisis, then there can be an opportunity to work through that if you live. And I happen to live, which is really good thing 'cause here I am. And so after getting the transplant in 2016, last year when we were out of the country, we came home, the team informed me that my kidney that I got in 2016 was starting to fail, and that I was going to need another kidney transplant. You know, kidney transplant usually lasts more than eight years, but this particular one wasn't a very good one for a number of reasons. And so again, another crisis. Okay, our life was moving along as our lives do, and all of a sudden, boom, it's all different. We had to drop back and punt so to speak and reorient our plans for the next time that we were gonna be doing things. So again, part of a crisis is learning how to adjust.
Mm-hmm.
So now just, to get you up to date, we have looked all over the place for finding a kidney donor, did a whole bunch of media stuff. And we had a number of people offer, but for whatever reason they didn't work out. And so now I'm going ahead with the kidney transplant and my wife is going to offer me and provide her kidney. A whole bunch of reasons why we didn't do that before, but we won't get into that. And so now I suppose you could say, I am in another crisis of sort, but now I got a little bit of experience. It's not really a major crisis. I sense it's a transformation, a different way of looking at life, adjusting to this real life situation of having a transplant operation on March 6th and moving forward from there. And you know, I'm gonna be 81 in April, and so that is something that is, you know, and think about how long am I gonna live, all that kind of stuff. How am I going to live? So all of a sudden the horizon of life has moved from here to here kind of thing. So things become a little bit more poignant in terms of decision making. And so one of my favorite phrases that I learned from one of my mentors was, heartbeats are our personal resource, non-renewable resource. Heartbeats are a personal non-renewable resource. The ones we're using up right now, we can't get them back.
Mm-hmm.
So he would say, use them wisely. And so one of the things I'm always often thinking about, okay, in what I'm about to do, is this a wise use, a useful thing that I'm going to do using up my heartbeat of which I'm gonna run out of sometimes? So it kind of makes decisions pretty easy sometimes.
Mm-hmm. So I love the saying that heartbeats are a personal non-renewable resource. I think that is a very simple thing to keep in mind, but a really important thing for people to keep in mind because especially, I mean, as we all get older and go through life, we start to realize that they are a non-renewable resource. And I often think back to being a teenager and being like I was invincible, totally I thought I was invincible. I had no perspective on that concept at all. And I think the earlier people can hear that and take it in and actually think about it, I think the more valuable it will be for them, so I appreciate you sharing that, first and foremost. Secondly, I am very glad that you have a kidney transplant set up and there is a air quote, resolution. Obviously, health stuff resolution is vague, but that there is a resolution per se in sight. And if you'll indulge me, I have a question about this idea of surfing crises and some of what you talked about.
Sure, go ahead.
So, because I think the way you've structured it and phrased it and thought about it is really interesting and really valuable. And you talked about the crisis and adjusting and transforming, and another T word that just totally fell out of my head right after that. Transitioning, I got it.
Transitioning, yeah.
I got it eventually. And I'm wondering if you, so, and hopefully I got that order right. Crisis, adjust, so,
It's right, yeah.
for those who especially appreciate that kind of, I'm gonna call it a structure, framework, whatever, to think about things,
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
can you tell us a little bit about each of those times, areas, how people can think about them? Because I think there's real value in that because we get, when you're in a crisis, it can be really hard to think about adjusting, transforming, or transitioning at all because you're just in the crisis.
Absolutely. And you know, I talk about these things because you know, we are used to them. But for example, with this transplant coming up, I'm sure as I get closer to it, I'm gonna freak out and be all fucked up, oops, swallowed up with my mind.
No, you're fine. You can.
Okay.
It's all good.
And so I will experience a crisis leading up to the operation because it's, you know, I mean there are risks involved. And the transformation part, because of my life's experience over time is not, probably not gonna be as big as it was when I was in 30. When I was 30 and experienced it for the first time, that was big. And so the world was very different. I had to make these huge transformational decisions about what I wanna do with my life, what's important to me, who's important to me, who are my friends, all that kind of stuff. What kind of career do I want to do because I start out as a city planner and wind up as a psychologist, you know, I think, right? So that's big.
Yeah.
The transition is like a healing transition. So we'll have the operation on March 6th, and both Renee and I will after that have to transition into the healing process. We've been in the process of finding a kidney and all that that means, and looking at all the decisions that we've made, all the assessments. And then the next part is to transition into a new situation where Renee is the donor and I'm the recipient. And what does that mean? What do we need to look at, do differently, do the same kind of thing to take care of ourselves? And then there are adjustments to be made. Because as we go through life, for example, I see myself as like, as about, you know, I feel like I'm 40 or 50. Some days I feel like I'm 17, and then I try to do things that 17-year-olds choose to do, and then I really hurt myself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yup.
And so in the transition, we make these adjustments to find our meaning in life, for example, to look at life a little bit differently to as a man, to allow my feelings and uncertainties to come forward and to be open about those, which I still have a difficult time. Most professional psychologists are control freaks, so we have difficulty letting go of control or thinking that we're in control. We like to be in control,
Mm-hmm.
but of course we're not. And so as we go through these things, it's accepting what is rather than lamenting what was.
Mm-hmm.
Now some of those things I understand are really difficult. You know, if somebody dies or somebody's murdered, and all those kinds of things. Those are serious and those are painful and those are difficult. And from the perspective of life over time and life in the bigger perspective of time, that these are things that happen to us and their the opportunity for change. So let me tell you a story about a guy I worked with.
Please.
He was brought to me by this guy I was training with psychiatrist and he was a air traffic controller. He was supposed to go to jail because what he would do is he would expose himself to women. He would be in the window of his apartment and he'd take off his clothes or he'd be out in the street and he opens it up, that kind of thing, so he got arrested. And he had three kids. He had this job as an air traffic controller. And so, he came to see me. Now this happened over a long period of time, so I'm gonna tell a very short story. So it wasn't as easy. But basically what happened over time in our working together, we discovered together that he wanted to be seen. Now that was a really gross illegal way of being seen.
Maybe not the best way, yup.
So, yeah. So I said to him, why don't you go to acting school?
Ah.
So he went to acting school, quit his job later after he'd gone through acting school, and he's now an actor.
Wow.
So he took this really gross, ugly thing, and that's where that transformation comes in. And then a transition into actually the work of doing it and then adjusting to his new life of, you know, being an actor.
Yeah.
And he's fine. So what could be seen as a psychological flaw, and it is in a way, be seen as he just wasn't being creative about what was going on with him.
Mm-hmm.
It's not very creative to expose yourself. First of all, dumb and it's ugly.
And there are real consequences for it potentially.
And there are real consequences. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so from the point of view of when I'm working with people, I'm always looking for, okay, this is the situation, how can you transform that into something more creative?
Mm-hmm.
So let's say you're incredibly neurotic, my mentor used to say, put your neuroticism to work. Like read, be a marathoner, make little things or whatever, be a programmer.
Yeah.
Put your neuroticism, because neuroticism are always looking at the smaller stuff.
Mm-hmm.
As Jung said, the definition of neurotics are they build parcels in the sky and the definition of psychotics is that they live in them.
That's great.
Yeah. So all these things in their life resent a little, there are little crisis and there are big crisis. Some are more difficult than others.
Yeah, it's, and I'm gonna, I'm not saying this is a truth, but it almost sounds in a way like some of the, when you can transform whatever the crisis is into something productive that actually serves you.
Yeah.
Whether it's, and that can be, you know.
Anything
Anything. And I was gonna say, like I think about, you know, both of my parents have died in one quite a while, quite a long time ago now. And in the moment of those things, you think this pain is never gonna whatever it is. And ultimately even something like that, you can transform into something that is productive for you, for whatever the case may be. But the word productive came to mind when you were talking, you know, in terms of, it might not be the minute it happens, we all have to feel what we're gonna feel, but when we can recognize and look back and say, hey, this can become something productive or did become something productive. And you know, the adjustment will come with that, the transition will come with that, that to me sounds like a real opportunity for people to think about.
Yeah. And part of a counseling process is to help people develop the skills to move on. As we were talking about before quite often, you know, people, you know, in psychoanalysis, you go every day of the week or every week or something like that. And the idea there is just to hear, but from my point of view, well, I wanna move on and try something new.
Mm-hmm.
Like who wants to eat anything of the same thing every day? So move on, find another more interesting taste that you like.
Yeah, yeah. I am curious, how, as I'm realizing as I'm about to ask this question, I was gonna say I'm trying to find a way that it's not gonna sound like a really long-winded question 'cause I have a tendency to think out loud when I'm doing this. 'Cause I'm in the moment of the conversation, fortunately or unfortunately. I'm curious, whether it's you or through the work that you've done, how you have seen or experienced people changing how they manage crisis or changing how they lead through crisis over time? And I know it might sound a bit vague, but what I mean is I think oftentimes, I think like most things, being able to manage crisis, lead through crisis, emotional intelligence, whatever you wanna call it, it is a muscle that we can build. And we can get, I'm air quoting get better if you're listening to the podcast. You can get better at it as in you recognize it sooner, you can, you know, be more intentional with how you respond as opposed to react, all of these kinds of things. And I'm wondering how you have seen that change or what you would recommend, or if there's something that you're like, look keep this in mind, here's how it's worked for me. 'Cause I think people often get stuck in, look in the work that I do which is, you know, coaching and training and talking to executives. The amount of times people are like, well, that's just the way I am and I react that way and this is the truth, as opposed to there's actual growth in here and there's opportunity in that.
Well, yeah, people will often say that that's the way I am, it's okay, how's that working for you?
Well, yeah, that's the question.
And so, and I respect people's decision if they take that position to be miserable.
Mm-hmm, absolutely.
You wanna be miserable, that's fine. Not very creative, not very interesting. And the other thing is, it's what I call empathetic confrontation.
Ooh.
One of the skills is to, as working with people as a counselor, is to be able to cut through all the noise and the images and all that kind of stuff with respect. And if the person should they choose to take the assignment, want to want to make, do what they need to do to be happier, healthier, more interesting kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.
See that's one of the problems I have with therapy. In my judgment, therapists have an agenda for the client. I don't have an agenda for you, the client.
Mm-hmm.
I respect your life, you to live your life wherever you want. If you're gonna break the law, there's gonna be consequences and we're gonna put you in jail or whatever.
Yup, yup.
But, okay, fine. But if you, and I've, you know, have worked with so many people over the years, some people choose to be miserable. And I'm okay with that. Because they seem to be okay with that. A lot of counselors spend a lot of time trying to convince the person to change. Well, that's ridiculous.
I love that you said that. I have a question about empathetic confrontation that I wanna go back to, but I want to, I love that you said that because that's one of the things that a number of years ago when I had a realization, and I work with organizations, right? But I had a realization where I was like, oh, I don't even wanna work with a company that does. I don't wanna go in anywhere and have to and try and convince someone or a business or whatever that they need to change. If you are good with where you're at, if this is what you think is the truth, if you're like, this is who I am, cool you do, that's great. I'm glad that, it's your life to live, it's your business to run, it's your whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And I agree with you. I think so often people are, and it's not even only counselors. I think people are trying to change their spouses, their kids, their parents, whatever, trying to convince someone else to change as opposed to someone identifying or having awareness of whatever and wanting to change and talking. I think that is fundamentally different. And I love that you called that out that way.
Yeah.
Um.
And, sorry, go ahead.
Go ahead.
No, I was gonna.
There's a thing around that people don't like to change, I say bullshit. People don't like the idea that they might have to change what they're doing. So for example, when you fall in love, you wanna change, you're big into change, it's all kind of cool. But not wanting to change just, I don't wanna leave this situation and move into a new one. That's all it is.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
And who does, right? But risk nothing, get nothing.
Absolutely.
Do not trust anybody else. Trust yourself, risk nothing, get nothing as is appropriate. Don't do stupid things like jump off a roof, see whether you can break a leg or something. But that's the whole thing too in this area of trust. Well, going back to your empathetic confrontation.
Yes.
My assumption is that the desire if you desire a relationship, then what the cost of being in that relationship is to be confronted with another person's opinion about what might be going on.
Mm-hmm.
And so, am I open to that or am I not?
Mm-hmm.
Do I agree with that? Because some people give us feedback and you know, I only respect people's feedback who are being respectful and in my area of expertise, somebody who has the training and whatever to have a good opinion. But if you haven't, you don't know what you're talking about, if you're gonna do bullshit, well, I don't respect that, right? But I also need to be aware of, am I being defensive?
Mm-hmm.
You know, you say something to me and I get defensive, that doesn't mean you're wrong.
Mm-hmm.
You're probably, it could be right on. It's just me being defensive because I'm not willing to at least take it in.
Yeah.
And if we're not at least willing to take it in and consider it, kind of like wine tasting. It's good, we swallow but the wine tasters don't. But you know, we're used to that.
The rest of us do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So this is the dynamic of relationship. And my assumption is everything that happens to us happens in relationship.
Mm-hmm.
So the really bad and ugly things that happened in relationship, and the only way out of that is to be in a more authentic, healthy relationship. You cannot do it alone. Little help from our friend.
Yup, yeah.
So from my perspective, if somebody doesn't, I'm going back to the question somebody doesn't wanna change, then they're not really willing to be in relationship.
Amen to that.
So for example, you go, if you go out and it's raining and you don't take an umbrella and you bitch and complain about getting wet, or you're deciding you wanna do whatever you wanna do in spite of the reality that it's raining. If it's raining, use an umbrella,
Mm-hmm.
you won't get wet.
Yeah. 100% on board with all of that. And I, I think people are so, and look, I'm broad strokes, broad generalizations. I fully acknowledging that that is what I'm speaking from right now. I think people, I think we have been socialized to be very afraid of and resistant to and avoid confrontation as much as possible to the point,
Of course, sure.
that we cannot distinguish healthy confrontation from, or healthy conflict whatever you wanna call it, from unhealthy. And there is a lot of unhealthy. I am absolutely not denying that. But there's also healthy confrontation, healthy conflict, and empathetic confrontation, empathetic conflict where both sides are coming, showing up with empathy and with hopefully, you know, the best for each other in mind not me being right as the driving factor is a place where it would be, I would love to see more people understanding that difference and being able to accept and show up and have those types of conversations and not only from professionals. And you know, I think there are, I love your approach that you were talking about, I think there are a lot of counselors, psychologists, therapists, you know, coaches, whatever, who just continue to avoid confrontation. And I think there are others who are so confrontational that it no longer feels empathetic. And somewhere in between there's probably a healthy spot.
Yeah.
But and I say all of that to the kind of long-winded way of acknowledging and then saying, how do we change that, Jim? How do we make more people able to, right? Can you help me solve the world's problems and make more people able to
Yeah.
recognize and step into healthy and empathetic confrontation?
Sure. Number one thing is, I have something to say to you, are you at least willing to consider it?
Yes.
Or, this is my thought about this, what do you think?
Mm-hmm.
Or I don't understand why you're doing what you're doing, can you help me out? Oh, it looks like you don't like what I have to say, what is it?
Yeah.
And so at the very least, there's the possibility I have something to say to you, are you willing to at least consider it, decreases the other person's resistance response to it. Doesn't mean it won't, but if the person says, yeah, I'm willing to hear it and you start off, and all of a sudden they're getting all upset. It's like, well, wait a minute. I thought I heard you say you were at least willing consider it. And they may say, actually, when I hear you talking, I don't think I am willing. Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Now that becomes problematic into that relationship. Because in an intimate relationship, whether it be a friendship or whatever, and I don't mean sexual or intimacy they're not same thing.
Yup.
See, we need to have agreement. And if you're gonna enter into an intimate relationship with another person over time, the only way that it can work is for each person to be open to at least considering the other's point of view. You don't have to agree. We may get into conflict. You know, I disagree with you, I'm conflicted with you, that's fine. Oh, and the other thing about conflict is, okay, you and I think differently about something. We're having a conversation, we get into it. Okay, you say you're piece, I say my piece. We're really at different ends of the call. And then, for example on a work situation, okay, given that, how can we work, how can we make this work? There is a way we don't know yet. Are you willing to make this work? The other question.
Yup.
But we get into our position, I'd rather be right than happy.
Mm-hmm.
It's my way or the highway.
Mm-hmm.
And I love being in that position. Because it feels so self-righteous.
Yes, it does, yes.
But-
Oh, we love that feeling.
Yeah. But, okay, enjoy your misery.
Yeah. Yup. Before we wrap this up, 'cause I have very much enjoyed this conversation and I have 100 more questions that I would like to ask you, but I'm not going to 'cause I know you have other things to do. Is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanted to bring up or anything you wanted to emphasize that we spoke about? And no, I'm good is also a completely acceptable response to this.
Well, I came in with no agenda, so we've completed everything.
I love them, perfect. A plus to us both. It has been truly a pleasure talking to you. I really appreciate everything that you've shared, and not only personally but also about some different ways of thinking about crisis, how does this idea of surfing crisis. Just your perspective has been incredibly valuable and I'm grateful that you have come on the show. And I wish you the absolute best with your upcoming surgery. And I hope it just goes.
We'll let you know.
I hope so. I hope it goes smoothly and easily and you are out having a ball by the summertime.
Thank you for me being a guest.
Absolutely, thank you. Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.