Are you interested in getting faster, easier, better results? Today's podcast guest, Jake Jacobs talks about leveraging change, why purpose and outcomes are essential drivers, as well as what we can learn from the troublemakers.
My guest today helps organizations, teams, and individuals make monumental changes.
Over the past 35 years, Jake Jacobs has worked in 61 different industries and consulted for 96 organizations (from Fortune 50 to national non-profits and community theaters). He has supported more than 210,000 people directly on important changes to their business--everything from strategy implementation and leadership development to mergers/acquisitions and culture change.
He is many companies' go-to when they are looking to leverage change in their organizations and is definitely an expert in the field.
Listen in as we discuss:
- Why PURPOSE and OUTCOMES are essential drivers in the workplace
- How front-line workers want to know WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?
- Why you should always INVITE THE TROUBLEMAKERS
- And, the most COMMON PROBLEMS that can occur with change (as well as their SOLUTIONS)
Jake is a fount of knowledge and experience. If you work, in any capacity, and have the potential to experience change, you are not going to want to miss this conversation. It was a fun one to have and super useful!
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To learn more about Jake Jacobs, you can grab a copy of his new book (Leverage Change: 8 Ways to Achieve Faster, Easier, Better Results) that came out last week.
Or, visit him online at https://jakejacobsconsulting.com/.
You can also connect with him via LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertjakejacobs/.
- I'm Céline Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. So today I'm here with Jake Jacobs who is the founder and CEO of Jake Jacobs Consulting, a global consulting firm that helps organizations create faster, easier better results. He is also the author of three books including the forthcoming, "Leverage Change" which is out at the beginning of May, which is very soon, super exciting, really excited to have you here today, Jake.
- Thanks so much, Céline.
- So I like to start these conversations kind of big and broad and ask what, when you hear leading through crisis or the idea of leading through challenging times 'cause crisis has challenging times. I think that's one and the same. It's my lens on it. What comes up for you? What does that mean to you? What's your experience with it? Where do you stand on that?
- Sure, I think that in some sense, all of my work is really about leading through crisis. So my clients that I work with are people who lead change work and organizations of all types and all kinds of change, who are frustrated that the results they're achieving are too slow, too hard, or too often disappointing. I think for too many organizations and too many people in them, change gets defined as crisis. It gets defined as something where anxiety gets raised, people, they're fearful for their jobs. They get fearful for the future. They don't feel like they have a say in it. I had one client who talked about how the executives used the word, "We're gonna roll this out." And he said to me, actually, what they do is they roll us over with these changes and it's kind of a steam roll. So I think in too many organizations, the crisis is about change. And I tell you one other story. I was working with the CEO and he was all focused on accountability. And he thought that this was what the organization needed and this was what was gonna happen. And so he called me with a lot of frustration in his voice and he said, "You know people are dropping balls left and right. I can't get anybody on board. And I have this vision for what this organization can become." And so I talked with him and the work we ended up doing in his organization was around getting clearer goals, getting a common vision, making agreements around new, and better ways that groups could work with each other and across the organization, even with customers getting involved in this. And what we came up with at the end, was an organization that was operating like a well-oiled machine. They knew who responsible for what. And one of the most interesting things was, that instead of focusing on accountability, we focused on support with this in terms of what supports needed so that people can fulfill the accountabilities that they were given. And so this whole idea of support was brand new to the organization, well received by most people. A foreign concept for the leader, who'd been hammering on accountability since day one. And that was a crisis for people in their own experience, I think, and didn't feel like they had control of their future. And they were between a rock and a hard place because they kept getting this emphasis on accountability all the time, without the needed support to make it happen. So I think unfortunately, a lot of change work ends up feeling like a crisis and being a crisis for the people who are experiencing that change.
- I completely agree. And it's really interesting that you say that because when I think of like leading through crisis or challenging times, it really has change because I think unless you are the person who is making the decision about the change, it almost always feels like a crisis at first because it's an unknown. So-
- Exactly.
- I love that you made that parallel right up front because that is, I mean, that's what I think about. That is the connection point for me. So thank you for doing that. I'm really curious about this. I wanna ask about this accountability piece for a second because I think that, and again, this kind of goes along with what I was just saying is that when I hear the story you just told about this leader who was really trying to hammer home accountability and make that thing. And it wasn't landing, it's like someone who's driving the change and their focus right now is on accountability. And I think it's really easy to get focused when you're faced with change on one thing and not pull out to see, what really needs to be in place? What really needs to happen? What is the bigger piece of it? 'Cause it's never just accountability. It's never just one piece. So in the work that you've done because you've been so involved in change over the years with various organizations, Jake has the most interesting history for those of you who did not have the pleasure of speaking to him before the start of this conversation, how do you work with people to get past that singular focus that is often the case of any organizational change where it's like they're hung up on one thing and that's the thing?
- Yeah. So what I would say, Céline, and this is my experience and you have to test it against yours and your listeners.
- Of course.
- But this question of, what's in it for me? Is a big question around any kind of change. And executives are asking this just as much as frontline workers and my clients talk about with them, which is the acronym for
- Yes. what's in it for me. Everybody knows about this. And it gets seen as a problem. Like people are being selfish. Like they're looking out for number one and they don't care. And what I believe is it's a healthy question to be asking. There's nothing wrong with enlightened self-interest and being able to look at the future and say, "Can I see myself in it? Is that compelling? Am I excited about that future?" And so the way that I wrote this book takes eight common problems that organizations bump up against when they're trying to bring about change. And then for each of them, I created a strategy that you can use or what I call levers. And this is just a quick aside, but that's based on Archimedes was a third century BC Greek mathematician. And he was famous for saying, "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it and I shall move the world." And I believe that people can move their worlds in the arena of change with fewer headaches, hassles, and problems than they've imagined before. So we go to this wave of problem and what's in it for me. And I think that a lot of the issues with that is that people don't have a say about their future. And so the lever for this one is about develop a future that people wanna call their own. Now, if I see a future that I wanna be part of, but what's in it for me, part of what's in it for me is creating that future. I'm excited about it. I'm proud of it. I come home, I tell my family about it. My coworkers and I talk about how can we make this happen? Because we've been involved in it. And I'm a big proponent of leaders not coming down with the 10 commandments from the mountain top with the vision. I believe that what they ought to do is work on a maybe not in stone, but maybe sort of, I don't know going back in time, mark it out and sand. And then bring people by and say, :What do you think of this? Is this gonna work for you? Do you think this is a good idea?" And educating people so that they make good decisions about whether this is a good vision for the organization. So one of these other levers is create a common database and it deals with when people in organizations don't know enough to make good decisions. And so often people lower in the organization don't know what people on the top are thinking. And people on the top don't always see what's happening day-to-day. So you can get this common database of people seeing the same current issues and possible futures. What I find is that that kind of envision is something that they do create together. Reasonable people exposed to the same information come up with reasonably similar conclusions. And there are leaders who I've worked with, who've been nervous to open the door and say, "What do other people think? And this fear is they're gonna screw it up and they don't know. And my experience has been they never have. I've been doing this for 35 years and they add value because they see things that leaders don't see.
- Of course.
- And that this notion is kind of I think it's an irrational fear. It's certainly something that is real to be nervous about. But my experience has been that people care and they add value and they listen to what the leaders are saying. So it becomes this a game where the Japanese call it catch ball, where the leaders come up with an idea and they bounce it off people lower in the organization who then bounce it back up and through that combination and in communication, you get better answers, smarter answers, more strategic answers.
- Yeah, so I have a couple of things I wanna say. I wanna start by telling I love what you said around like write this out in the sand and then have people come by and give some thoughts on it. So I wanna tell you a really quick story about how not to do this, 'cause I experienced this in an organization. I was working for a company that was the leadership team was coming up with a new vision, mission sort of thing. They created it. They had all of the employees get together in groups to review it and give feedback and thoughts on the future of the industry, and the future based on our, in the field future focus on things. We had many thoughts and gave a whole bunch of feedback and they took zero of any of the thoughts that anyone shared and published the exact thing that they ran by us for feedback a month later, that is how not to do that. You are not looking for feedback. You just want people to feel like they're involved. And I will tell you it was way worse for them to have done it that way than to not have done it at all. So I love what you said, 'cause I was like, "Oh, I experienced the bad version of that."
- Yeah, absolutely. I actually have a bad story of my own. This is a large organization where, I did a lot of work with large groups early in my career.
- Sure.
- I was one of the pioneers. So like 1,000 people on the floor of the Superdome, for three days in a decision-making meeting.
- Wow.
- So when your listeners have this and they're listening to you or watching, that's not the only work I do anymore. I actually am looking at individuals and teams and organizations. And how can you take these levers and really apply them to everyday work. If I've got a problem with my boss, these levers could helpful. But we were working with this leadership theme and they did the same thing. They went out and they said, "Well, what do you think?" And in real time in these large group meetings, we used to have them go off and do work while the rest of the group did some other work, and they came back in the room. And they were like, they hadn't done anything. I mean, they hadn't taken it seriously. We had told them this is gonna be an issue. But they came back and they ran the same stuff by people. We said, "Stand and clap if you agree and sit and hiss if you don't." Because when you hiss, nobody can tell you're doing it. Doing with your mouth. just your mouth, mostly closed. Well, nobody stood up. There were 500 people in the room. Nobody stood up And the leaders had to go back in that side room and take it seriously and do the work that they were meant to do. And come back with an integrated vision having listened to the people which they had the opportunity to do a little different than yours, because it was in real time. And they got that standing ovation. They got people recognizing that they'd taken it seriously. And sometimes when you screw up and then you get it right, a customer has more appreciation for you than if you got it right the first time.
- Absolutely.
- You went back to the well and you worked on it. You practice, you got better. Well, that's my story of people coming up short and it's way worse to skip it than to never ask at all. Like, I don't know, some of your listeners may be familiar with Lucy, Charlie Brown and the football which was a peanuts cartoon when I was growing up and Lucy used to hold the football and tell Charlie Brown to come kick it. And this is American football but he would come and take a run at it. She'd pull it out. And it would happen. I think for years, Charlie Brown fell on his backside with this football disappeared. So way worse, way worse, like you said to try it and not get it right.
- Yeah, well, the truth is for me, I say the truth, I believe the truth is I'm not saying it is the truth that we connect more when people make mistakes. And when they're not perfect than we do with the perfect stories that we put forward and the idea of perfection, we like to look at things that look great and admire them and say, "I would like to be that one day. I would like to have things that one day. I want my company to look like that one day." But we don't connect with it in the process. We connect with people saying, "We screwed up. There's a better way. Here's the mistake." We love a comeback story. So it's that opportunity to actually acknowledge and do something with that as opposed to forge forward, hoping that no one noticed.
- Well, and I think Céline, in some ways, what we're talking about can be sometimes heard as an unpopular view. It's not the safe path.
- For sure.
- What appears safe at the surface is often most risky I think. And what appears risky at the surface is often the safest path. But one of the things I talk about with clients and I am in the world of change. And most people who are in the world of change, that's what they talk about. That's what they focus on. That is the main point that they're trying to get across. And what I spend a lot of time talking with clients about is what not to change. And this is initially an unpopular voice. They're sort of like, "We hired you to come and help us with change. Now, you're telling us about not changing." And I call it continuity of what I believe is that if you need radical change, you gotta find ways to create radical continuity. And so by that I mean that people feel more comfortable and confident to take a jump and a leap into an unknown future when they start on firm ground.
- Yeah.
- And so I've had clients where I've said, "Make two lists. Make a list of all those things that are gonna change right now." And they make the list. And it's a little anxiety producing because like you're looking at this and you're saying, "Can I do this? Do I wanna do this? Are we gonna be successful in doing this?" And then I say, "All right, we're gonna make another list of all the things that are not gonna change as we move into this future. But this time make the list twice as long. And as they start brainstorming what's not going to change." It gets easier and easier to make that list. And they step back and they say, "There's a lot of continuity, but we haven't been talking about it." And when people have town hall meetings or other things where leaders stand up, I think have the best of intentions. They're focused on the right stuff. They wanna bring about change. And yet there's like one hand clapping. And the other hand clapping is about continuity. And what's not gonna change it. If that gets brought into the conversation, people feel validated. And the reality is they're right. That they should be paying attention to the things that are gonna stay the same as much as what's gonna change.
- Yeah. So I think that's really interesting because a lot of the work that I do is in leadership development and culture work. And I talked about something similar starting from strengths. Like, what are the things that you are already good at as an organization, as a person, as a leader, whatever, how do you keep doing more of that and how do we now fill gaps? Like how do we change basically the things that aren't working so well, and it's really interesting 'cause I've noticed before I was doing that. And I was just like, "I'm a coach." I was like, "Let's fix all the things that aren't working, let's fix the broken things." And it was exhausting for people. It's hard for people to see themselves in change. It's a lot easier for them to see themselves in continuity. And if they can see themselves in that that's a different foundation.
- Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that, it's one of the levers but it's also one of the ways that I've worked with clients for a long time is the believability index is often low around doing things differently. And it's like, "I can work from my strengths but I'm still gonna need to reach in to do some things differently than I have in the past." And so what I've got is this way of thinking about it where if change is too slow for people,. And often for leaders, it is too slow. And for the marketplace, it can be too slow for your customer.
- For sure, for sure. So there's a lever that I've got called think and act as if the future were now. What that mean is that if we can get any image of the future, however, large or small and start to live it today, think and act as if that future where today, 'cause what we normally do is as we think of the future is something that's out there. It's gonna occur at a later point in time. And just by saying vision 2025 at some level subliminally, we're like, "Okay I got time to get to it because it's not 'till 2025." But once you start thinking and acting then your behavior starts shifting. And I had one client who was working on a sales strategy and all the executives were in the room and they were doing their very best. And then they had a disagreement and it broke out into quite an animated conversation. They describe it. You know, it was good that, we had chairs that were heavy, so no one across the room, but it got pretty heated. And they were trying to become a more participative organization. It was one of their cultural things that they were working on, and probably much like your consulting work and people who are listening, wanting a more participative culture. And I said to them, "Well, if you have that culture alive and well in your organization right now, what would you do?" And at first they kind of sat there and they weren't sure. And then one person spoke up and said, "We wouldn't be the only people in the room." I said-
- Wow.
- "Well, who else might be here?" And they started to list people, many of them frontline salespeople in this region that they were trying to grow. And then somebody said, "Well, let's have a meeting next week. And let's bring those people in which is better." I said, "I'm gonna top that, let's take a 10 minute break. And you get these people in the room, whatever way you can." And this was before the pandemic and Zoom being used like regularly. So they got some people in on video conference they got some people in on phone. They brought some people in that were like walking the hallways. And they said, "Let's start thinking and acting as a future were now." And that meant that those people had to be in the room at the end of 10 minutes and they listen. The other thing they did then it's that they listen to these people. If they had invited him in and talked over him that's such a good idea. But they listened to him and they came up with a better answer than anybody else in the room had. And it happened because they behaved as if they were in the future, they grabbed hold of something and said, "This is how we do business differently." Let's start doing business differently here and now.
- Yeah, that's super powerful. It's a great story by the way. But I think that's a really important mindset shift for lack of a better word right now in the sense that when we, it changes your behavior immediately and impacts the future as opposed to I'll change my behavior when I have to but I keep doing what I'm doing right now.
- And it's like, I call that the back against the wall strategy. It's like when you've got no other choice but to change, it's like, well, that gets a little easier to make that decision. But when I talked about that believability index earlier, see it shows up in spades when you're talking about thinking and act as if the future were now, why is that so? Well, you start looking left and right. And if you get an organization of people asking that question, well, if we were in this future, what would it look like? How would I make this decision? What criteria would I use? You start to look left and right at your colleagues and they're doing business in new and better ways. And so it's like, "Is this change for real?" I can look at a meeting that I'm attending, that my colleagues leading and all of a sudden that's different. I mean, I haven't had one client where we talked about purpose and outcomes for meetings. A good meeting ought to have a purpose and outcomes to it. And this is actually a lever too called design it yourself. And this comes up when people say, "This wasn't invented here, why should I follow this? It's a six step process. It's somebody else's part." Have you worked in our industry? Have you used this with an organization our size? Those questions. Well, designing it yourself says you've got to have a purpose and outcomes. So this organization I was working in the leadership team started to have purpose and outcomes. In fact, they said, "If the purpose and outcomes for a meeting isn't out 24 hours before the meeting you don't have to go to the meeting.
- Yeah.
- Two meetings, it took for this to sink in. And people like had nobody show up at their meetings. And so they started with the leadership team getting good meetings. And then it started to filter out into the organization so that in their departments, they started having purpose and outcomes. And then projects started to have purpose and outcomes. And all of this became a results orientation. That became part of the culture. It wasn't a formal change effort. They didn't have a steering group overseeing it. There was no sponsor to this work. It just took hold because it made sense. And so some of the leverage, spontaneously you can take them out and put them to work and they'll work for you.
- Oh, I love that so much. I have a few organizations I've worked with where meetings were I'm just gonna talk, I have a question for you, but I just want to say this the meetings were like that huge unbearable issue that everyone talked about. And it was like, "Okay, great." So let's, for you in this organization what types of meetings do you wanna have? This is a meeting that we make. We have meetings to make decisions. We have meetings to inform people. We have meetings for one-on-ones like create categories. It's gonna make your life easier, cool. So what needs to happen before every meeting an agenda needs to be clear. Why we're in this meeting. What we're getting out of this meeting it's purpose and outcome basically. I wish that more organizations actually lived at the way that what you're talking about does, 'cause I've seen it die so often that leadership level where someone gets lazy and they're just like, "Oh, we're gonna go anyways. And it doesn't go any further. And it's such a sticking point in so many organizations. And I hope for anyone listening to this that you hear Jake story and you say, "Huh, maybe that's how we change how we're doing all the meetings we're complaining about nonstop especially during a pandemic.
- Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I say, "Why wait." Now, I've got this belief in the book and I poured a bit of heart and soul into it, writing it at home, in my office with my 103 pound black lab. So he was really a coauthor feel. But what is-
- I hope you named him in the book?
- He did get an acknowledgement. He did get an acknowledgement. So why wait is really about saying that we're talking about right now, Céline, there are ideas out there. And it's like, "Why take another step with this change effort without using one of these levers." I mean, it's like yelling in the bank, you can pull winnings off the table and it can start to pay for future investment. So I talk with clients about that and I say, "You know if you pull winnings off early, if you take action and you get some early winnings, you can use that money, time, energy political capital. You could use that down the road and it's gonna pay dividends for you."
- Of course.
- So rather than waiting around, I say take it by the horns and start doing business differently now, even experiment with something and learn from it and then experiment again so that you start getting those benefits now rather than hoping that you're gonna get them later.
- Yeah, yeah, I think that's incredibly important for people to bear in mind as they're in these situations. I wanted to go back to purpose and outcome for a second 'cause we talked a little bit before we started this around this idea of teams, organizations, achieving common goals, moving towards that purpose and outcome. So how do you get people on board with that common goal, with that common purpose, with that common outcome when they are struggling often with all of the changes that come with that?
- Yeah, so often, Céline, what I find when I'm working in organizations, is the people who don't get on board, get a label.
- Yeah.
- I wish everybody could see your face when I'm gonna use this label because we've all heard it.
- Yeah.
- Maybe we've even under times of duress and frustration used it ourselves. But I think what they get called as troublemakers. These are the people that drive you crazy. They raise another issue. It's like, everybody's ready to sign off on this plan except Joe, Jane, whoever it might be. And they just get in your hair. I mean, they start to drive you a little crazy. Well, in this book, you don't have to do it alone. We had a section on troublemakers. And what we said is troublemaking is in the eye of the beholder, just like beauty. And so if I see you Céline to be a troublemaker, you tend to be creating mischief for me. If I see you as a valuable contributor to the team and you start valuably contributing to the team. So when these people are looking at your vision and saying, "I don't think so." I like to tell my clients the four magic words that you can use that will make an enormous difference which is, could you say more. Instead of trying to shut the person down, open it up, create space, make it a safe place for this person to speak which then makes it a safe place for anybody to speak. But a lot of times they're watching your backside. They're seeing things that you don't see, they're feeling things that you're not feeling. There are people out in the organization who are thinking and feeling these same things and you can ignore 'em in the early part of the process, but you're going to pay for it downstream. So it's like pay now, pay later. And so finding troublemakers and really listening to 'em and then taking their counsel and acting on it, I think is a huge win for people. So part of the reason why I think the people have trouble with common vision is because they don't bring these people on board themselves. It's more up to me and I'm responsible as a leader to reach out and engage people in meaningful ways than it is for them to try and find some way to be a yes man or a yes woman, which none of us really want. It's not helpful to just get people. They either go underground because it's not safe. So I'm just gonna salute and do my job.
- Absolutely.
- Or they make noise and they get in trouble for doing that because they're causing trouble. And it's like people, I had a client once, true story Céline, that I went and visited 'em. And everybody said they had a problem with Harry. Everybody on the leadership team. There's like 10 people, everybody had a problem with Harry. And I'm like, "It's so strange." I talked to Harry and he's like, "Yeah, everybody's had a problem with me. I don't know why." And they say he talks too much. And they say he doesn't make sense. And they all have these reasons. And I came back two weeks later and I said, "Well, how's this issue with Harry?" And they said to a person it's fixed. And I said, "That's remarkable." I'm not a consultant, but I like to be around for these things, get a little credit for it. In two weeks they solved this all on their own. I said, "Well, how did you do that? That's remarkable." And they said, "We stopped inviting him to our meetings." So he was never around, he was never causing trouble, but I think that's not the way we want to lead businesses and lead organizations. And so finding a common vision is really critical. And I think the best way to do it is to invite troublemakers on board and to engage them in some ways that really matter to them and to the organization.
- So thank you for using me as your example of a troublemaker because that was when I worked in organizations and in the consulting I do now, that's often my role is to be the voice of dissent and to be like, "Hmm I think you might be missing thing." And it is definitely not always valued. And I think what you're saying is really important is that the language I use is it's not about getting consensus that it's virtually impossible to get consensus. That should never be the goal in terms of like everyone needs to agree before something move moves forward. No, but you can get collaboration. And that is, you can have everyone involved in the conversation and participating, even if you do not agree with them and vice versa. That is really different for me. And I think that's what I hear inside of what you're saying is like, get people involved, ask them another question. They don't all have to agree, but they all should have a voice and that's how you get them on board.
- Yeah, and I would ask your listeners and viewers, depending on which bucket they fall into to picture a day when they're working on a change effort and the deliverables are achieved, the outcomes are the results that they accomplish. And to picture a day when that person who was not onside comes up and says, "I'm proud that I was part of this. I've got ownership for this. I'm gonna help make sure that this doesn't become a rubber band change." That looks good for six months and then snaps back. And picture a day when change can be fast and easy. As a matter of course, just the way we do it in our organization is about it being faster, easier, and better. And it's like the tips that you're sharing, what I'm talking about, what I wrote about in this book, those days exist. I know, 'cause I've heard clients talk about them. And so my wish is that people listening would take something anything that makes sense to them that we've been talking about and put it to work Make it happen today, no longer, no later than tomorrow. But those days that I'm talking about, they're out there for all of us and we get to make them happen but they are out there for all of us.
- Well, I don't think I've ever had a guest who so perfectly had a moment to end a conversation as a wish for our listeners and viewers. And you just mastered that. So Jake, I don't think there's a better way to end this. And I so appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and to have this conversation with me. I think it's gonna be incredibly valuable for everyone listening. There will be links to all of your websites in the show notes but your website is jakejacobsconsulting.com. The book is called "Leveraging Change." Is there a website for book?
- It's "Leverage Change." Eight ways to achieve-
- I'm sorry.
- That's all right. Eight ways to achieve faster, easier, better results. So any kind of results. I had one person that I did a podcast with Céline and they said, "You're gonna be on a podcast. And somebody is gonna say, If you use this for relationships, and I'm gonna go, Hmm, well, indirectly in my own." Because they're like any results that you want to accomplish this could be used for. So I haven't written that relationship book but we do have programs because the book is about what the levers are, and these programs and group consultations. And other things that we work on with clients are about how do you put those levers to work? How do you apply those levers in a way that makes sense in your situation? Not just generally or theoretically, but practically in the work you're doing every day.
- So everyone should get this book, "Leverage change." Everyone should be sending Jake emails to get him on creating a relationship workshop for this apparently because I think the fact that change has changed, the circumstances might be different but how we can manage it and deal with it and go through it and build on it is gonna be the same 'cause change is not one thing. It is just a transition.
- Absolutely. So I love that. I'm really excited for your book to come out. So thank you. There'll be links to everything. And I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today.
- Thank you so much, Céline. And thank you for all those listeners and viewers out there who are believers in the work that you're doing here. I think it's just tremendous to bring in thought leaders and people with even different perspectives than yours to share so that we can all learn and do a better job, whatever that job may be.
- I love learning and growing. So this is even if it's challenging, I love it. So I appreciate that very much, thank you. And I will speak to you soon.
- All right, thanks again. Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.