Being fearless is not the absence of fear but the courage to take the next step. Today's guest, Jacqueline Wales and I discuss self-awareness in leadership, powerful questions to ask when we get stuck, actions that yield big results, and more!
For more than 35 years, Jacqueline has helped countless people become more empowered, confident, and resilient. As a motivational speaker, professional coach, and author of several books (including The Fearless Factor), she believes in the power of fearlessness to create the career and life you want.
Her work focuses on leaders willing to dig into self-discovery, take accountability for their actions, and responsibility for their decisions... Pushing boundaries and breaking through excuses to achieve results.
In this episode, we get into:
- How leading through crisis demands a great deal of self-awareness
- Powerful questions to ask yourself that yield big results
- How to figure out what the next step is and how to take it
And, more!
If you lead a team or company, work with others (in person or remotely), or simply want to show up as your best self, this message is for you.
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To learn more about Jacqueline Wales, you can find her online at https://thefearlessfactoratwork.com/. She is also on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacquelinewales/) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/JacquelineWales/).
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. So today my guest is Jacqueline Wales, who, for more than 35 years, has explored human behavior and asked tough questions to discover hard truths. She believes in the power of fearlessness to create the career and life you want. As a motivational speaker, professional coach, author of "The Fearless Factor" and "The Fearless Factor at Work" among other books, Jacqueline has helped countless people become more empowered, confident, and resilient. Jacqueline, thank you for joining me today.
- Pleasure to be here, Celine. Thank you so much for having me.
- I am very excited to talk about this. I love that you've written a book about fearlessness, 'cause I think that is an incredible topic. And I do wanna start with sort of the big, broad question I usually ask, which is when you hear the idea of leading through crisis or leading in challenging times, what does that mean for you? What comes up for you around that?
- Well, for me, first and foremost, crisis means that people are not dealing with change very well, that they're overwhelmed, that things are not moving smoothly. And I'm always gonna go back to the individuals. Leading through crisis, leading through change, demands a great deal of self-awareness for the individual who's doing the leading. And frequently, that's lacking. Do you really know what your strengths and your weaknesses are? Do you know what your values are? Do you lead from that place or are you leading because it's a role and this is how you're supposed to be doing it? And then other people don't wanna play with you because they're not on the same page, frankly. And there you have it, crisis right there. So for me, it's all about it starts with the individual, if we're talking about leading through crisis. So start with yourself and think about how you're dealing with change, or not.
- I think that cannot be overemphasized, because it's so easy to want to look externally and say, well, this is what a good leader looks like, or this is how a leader should lead. But if you're not doing the internal work and doing that internal examination, in my experience and my opinion, it's never effective 'cause it's not real.
- Well, this is it. I mean, one of the things that I do in my work is help people to show up authentically. And what does that mean? Well, I wanna see the real you. I wanna see your warts, I wanna see your strengths. I wanna see you with pretty much bringing everything. You know, show up and show me who you are. And it's in a crisis that we really do show people who we are. I've had enough crisis in my own life to know that we don't always perform at the best when we're under pressure. We don't always perform at our best when we're overwhelmed, when we're feeling like we don't have all the answers. Now that's a big mistake that many people in leadership make, is that they think they should have all the answers. And having the strength of character, the fearless quality to say, "I don't know" is a big piece of handling the crisis. It's like, I don't have the answers right now, but we're gonna work on this together to find the solutions that we need in order for us to move the ship again, if you like.
- Yeah. I wanna explore this idea a little bit of the fearless factor that you mentioned. I know it's your book, but can you tell us a little bit about what that is for you, I mean, you've written at least two books about this. It's a big piece of your work, as you just mentioned. So can you tell us a little bit about what that is for you and where you're coming from when you talk about the fearless factor?
- Yeah, so here's my take on being fearless. It's not the absence of fear, but it's the courage to take the next step. Now, this is really important. Because when we think about being fearless, it really is not about having no fear.
- Of course.
- We all have anxiety. We all have uncertainty. We all have that sense of not knowing what to do next, of the "don't know." But unless you take the next step, then you're just gonna stay in that stuck mode. I mean, that's another reason why people get into crisis, 'cause they're not taking the next step. So the being fearless for me is really about, again, are you brave enough to say, I need to just go see what this is about. I work a lot with individuals. So for them, it's about they come to me and they go, "I don't have the confidence; I'm feeling a bit stuck. "I'm not speaking up in meetings," and so on and so forth. So then I wanna know, so what's gettin' in the way of that? And a lot of it is our negative thinking. A lot of it is our conditioning that has created a miasma, if you like, around who you really are, you know, because you're not really living true to your own personality, to your own strengths, your own weaknesses and so forth, as we mentioned. So being fearless for me is about taking the risk, of respecting your intention and showing courage. That's my acronym for risk, Respect your Intention and Show Courage. And that brings me back to-
- I like that.
- Fearless is the courage to take the next step. So it's not a complicated thing. Because here's the thing about fear. Fear is an emotion, which means that most of our fears are imagination-based. Now, I understand in the last year, there's been a lot of real fears around, fears about losing a job or having lost a job, fear of losing your life, as far as the COVID thing is concerned; fears of not enough financial support. There's a lot of that. But when you look at what would be your next step to handle some of that, so yeah, if I lose a job, what do we do? Well, you've gotta put your attention to where you might find another job, not just to sit back and go, well, it is what it is. And that's a lot of what happens. It is what it is, and well, there you end up in crisis again. So what's your action steps? What are you thinking about in terms of moving yourself forward? So when we think about the fear piece, fear is predicated on what happened in the past might happen again in the future. But we forget that in this present moment, we have a choice, and the choice is that you can do something. And if you choose to do nothing, that's a choice. So we have to really look at, again, if we're in crisis, what choices are you making? What action steps are you taking in order for you to break out of whatever that place is? And the answers may not be evident right away. But unless you're moving, you won't find the answers you're looking for. But here's the other thing about looking for the answers. I say it's not about looking for the answers; it's about asking the right questions. Now, as a coach, my job is to ask you questions, just as you do in your interviews. I ask questions to get down to the heart of what is going on. So I like to say one of my favorite questions is, what about that matters? Now, this is a really, really important question. 'Cause when we get caught up in our stuff, what about that matters? If you're stuck in something, so ask yourself, why am I stuck, is one question. But what about being stuck is really the issue for you? And then you have to, again, it's an emotional thing. I like to say our thinking drives our behavior. Our behavior drives our actions. It's a very simple thread, we all know that. So start with the thinking. What are you thinking about? Are you thinking that you can't solve this? Are you thinking that you're no good? Are you thinking that nobody wants what you have? As an entrepreneur, there have been many moments when I have sat here and said, "What am I doin' wrong?" I know I got a lotta good stuff goin' on, but nobody's responding, or they're not responding the way I'd want them to respond.
- Right.
- So then I have to think about, okay, so how do you position this a little differently? How do you open up the conversation? It's a learning piece. Part of the reason we get into crisis, for instance, is people are afraid of failing. So because they're afraid of failing, they don't take the actions that are necessary, again, to the risk factor, to test things out. Because what is failure but simply testing things out. I like to say failure is very simple. It's a decision, an expectation, a direction that you had anticipated that didn't go the way you wanted it to. And if you can take it simply as an iteration, it changes things. But when you freeze because you're afraid of failure, afraid of taking that decision, afraid of taking that next step, then again, you're in crisis. So it's always gonna come back to the individual, the individuals who are leading the teams, that are leading the organization. So if the whole organization is in crisis, what's happening at the top? How does that trickle down through the entire organization? And I see this all the time with cultural work. When you look at the behaviors that are driving the so-called accepted norms of an organization. Well, it's pretty much bad behavior that's been put up with for God knows how long.
- Yeah, I love that you said that. A big piece of my business is doing cultural design work with organizations. And one of the things that I ask, and I don't just ask the leaders this, but we go in and we find out is, what behaviors are rewarded? What's accepted? What are the unspoken things that get overlooked? And not just what the leaders see. Because you're right, it's all of that is part and parcel of the entire situation of what happens in crisis. It's really interesting. I love that you drew that comparison, 'cause it's so in my wheelhouse of things that I'm passionate about. And it starts with the individual and you see it in the collective.
- Yes, yeah. I mean, that's exactly what happens. And companies who are talking to me about doing assessments on their leaders. And when I do behavioral assessments, which is a 360, and you really show them this is how you're showing up and this is what the people think of you, the shock on their faces is usually quite something. 'Cause how they see themselves as being the ideal leader and how they're being perceived by other people, yeah, it's two different things here. So again, that self-awareness. That's a lot of what the behavioral work is about is about how do I bring you a gift of showing you what you think about for yourself and how you're showing up in the workplace. And we do a pretty serious analysis of all the different dimensions of how they're showing up in the workplace, across different functions. And I think it's a very important piece. And I don't think there's enough companies who are really invested in, basically, I call it opening the raincoat, you know. It's like let's expose what's really going on here. They would rather just keep it all closed up, and we'll just go about our business and hope that it's all gonna come right. That's not a way to handle crisis. Handling crisis is about being willing to confront what's really at root for all of this.
- Yeah, but if you open that raincoat, and by the way, I agree with you. I am not saying this because what I'm about to say is my opinion, but I think for a lot of them, the idea is, if you open that raincoat, then you are going to be in crisis because you are going to see all the things that you are currently ignoring. So if you never open it, then you never have to deal with it.
- Well, that's exactly it. It's the old blinkers thing. It's like we're just gonna see what we see and that's what it is, you know what I mean? We know about the fixed versus the growth mindset. And the fixed mindset is very much about blinkers are on, I see what I see and I do what I do, and it is what it is. Whereas the growth mindset says, I can have peripheral vision here and I can see there's a whole lotta stuff that needs to be addressed. And I hate to use the word fixed, because I don't believe anybody or anything needs to be fixed, per se, but I do think there has to be a greater degree of observation and willingness to deal with the uncertainties, the inadequacies, the things that really are not serving well. And that I think is really key to, again, being fearless. If you're gonna open the raincoat, then work on it, work on it. And the vulnerability piece is huge because people don't wanna show their weaknesses. It's like, I got everything together. "How are you doing today?" "Just fine." "Oh, really? "Tell me more about that one." And you hear that from clients. And you can hear it in their voice, "I'm fine." "Oh, really?" "Okay, can we explore that one a little bit, "see how that's workin' for ya?"
- So I love that. So I do that when I hop on the phone with my clients, and I'll be like, "How are you today?" "I'm fine." And I will literally be like, you're lying to me. What's really going on? And they're always like, how? I'm like, listen. There are some times where people are like, yeah, I'm fine, and they actually are, but almost always it is a reflexive response. And so I think that's a really important thing, that self-awareness starts in moments like that. Right?
- Yes, that's exactly right. And going back to the behavioral assessments that I do, when I'm sitting doing a debrief with an individual and we're talking about the behaviors that are driving their person at this point in time, and when we start to get granular about it and we start to explore how really this is working for you, and again, you've got 360, so you're getting feedback from others, it can be a bit of a surprise. I've had people break down in tears because they have no idea that that was the impact that they were having. But then it really does give you a window to say, ah, well, if that's what's goin' on, maybe I can change it.
- Yeah.
- Maybe I can do better. And that's the greatest piece for me, is I want somebody to say, "I can see a need to change, "I can see I can do better." And when that individual starts from that point of view, that crisis starts to get better. 'Cause as you've said before we started talking, crisis is really about change. And change is one of my favorite subjects, because I've spent a lifetime going through my own changes.
- Yes.
- And I do not say that lightly. I have had amazing experiences in now my six decades of life. And I bring all of that to my work. And this is how I know what fearless really means, because I had so much of my own personal life in fear that drove a lot of my behaviors, lost a lot of opportunities as a result of not being able to stand up and claim my ownership. And this is what I talk about in my work. How do you claim ownership of your entirety? Your entirety, not just the bits that you think people will find socially acceptable, which, by the way, is the word nice. Nice means socially acceptable. Are you being nice today? Especially for women.
- Oh, I hate it.
- It's a big problem for women. I'm just tryin' to be a nice girl. Well, get over that one. And so when women come to me with "I wanna be more fearless," what does that mean? I want you to be more confident. I want you to take ownership of your skills and your talents. I want you to be able to speak up and not sit silently when somebody overrides you or when you've got an idea that should be shared, and you're feeling reluctant to do that. And, by all means, get over the imposter syndrome, because that's basically fear-based. And so much of our behaviors is fear-based. And remember what I said at the beginning, fear is imagination-based. We make up the stories to cover up this thing inside that feels like the primitive brain on overdrive. We're not in the executive function. We're in back here somewhere. But there's a lot more to it, as you well know, when we look at brain science. But that is a piece. And how do we react? Our emotions. We, as self-aware people, it's about knowing how to handle your emotions, isn't it? So if you have a boss who's constantly screaming, who's constantly bangin' on people to get stuff done, even in times of crisis, what do you think that does for everybody? Yeah, not so much.
- Yeah.
- Not so much. So again, get back to the individual. What would you like to do to correct this behavior?
- Yeah.
- 'Cause you're ruining the organization as a result of it. And these folks don't get fired. That's what blows me away. It's like, you're puttin' up with this. That's like, why? I've had CEOs say I've had somebody for 10 years and I constantly am on his case, I want him to improve. I've given him enough room to do that. I've given him coaching, he still doesn't do it. So I'm like, can his ass. You gotta get rid of it. Because it's undermining everything that you're tryin' to do here. "Well, I don't know how to do that. "I mean, he's been pretty loyal. "He's been with the company," blah, blah, blah. Okay, how much is this costing you? Are you gonna be fearless? Are you gonna be courageous enough to take that step that says, we've tried, we really tried, but we've come to the end of the road. And that's that fearless piece right there.
- So I have a question for you for someone who is, 'cause I hear similar things all the time, which is like that we know that there's a problem here, and we're not actually doing anything about that person or team or group of whatever; it's people. We can say that it's process and we can say that it's all these other things, but people drive all of that. So there's usually a person or people there, and they'll say they know they need to get rid of it. They're afraid to do it. How are they gonna replace this person? This person has so much organizational knowledge, whatever the excuses are, 'cause they're excuses. But it's all very fear-driven. So when you hear things like that, if people are listening to this or watching this and thinking like, oh, yeah, I know that person who's the problem, and they're not doing anything about it, what can they ask themselves? Or what would you ask them to get them through that fear resistance and to recognize it for what it is, which is not real? 'Cause in those moments, you know that CEO you're talking to is like, no, but how am I gonna find a replacement in the job market, and whatever other thing that they're telling themselves.
- Yeah, yeah. And the bottom line is that to replace them is a lotta work, there's no question. And there will be a time of adjustments that has to happen. You know, I mean, and of course, they don't want that. It's like, well, I can't afford the time. I can't afford to lose ground on this. Well, what ground are you losing already? Because this person is not performing to the level you want them to perform to. So the piece that the individual has to ask themselves, apart from what is this costing you, is on a more positive side of things, what would be the ideal? And let them develop the picture of what the ideal would be. Now, frequently, they'll start with, I'm not really sure.
- Yeah.
- Okay. So then my next question is always gonna be, well, what do you not want? So if you go to, what do you not want, and you've made that list, well, it's much easier to go to what do you do want.
- For sure.
- You just need to go the opposite way. So that's where I would go with this is, think about what you really want. And then think about, there is somebody out there who can do this job, and it'll take time. And you have to be prepared to go with that downturn, if you like, or that downward slope while you get somebody to pick up the energy and the pace again. And it doesn't have to take forever to do. So if you've had somebody in a job for 10 years and, boy, they're just an encyclopedia of everything that needs to happen within the organization, and how the hell are you gonna help somebody else do that, well, you might find somebody who's actually smarter and a lot more capable, and can take it in in a fraction of the time. It's like when I talk about fearless change, I like to say it took me years to make my changes. But my job is to help you do it in weeks and months. That's it, 'cause a lot of it is about adjusting the thinking. 'Cause once you adjust your thinking and you look at your limiting beliefs, and you look at what it is that's gettin' in the way, then the adjustment is a lot faster. That's really what my programs are all about, is helping people to make that adjustment as fast as possible. 'Cause why do we wanna hang around on this stuff? It's uncomfortable. It makes our life miserable. It makes our relationships miserable. And it certainly makes our work life miserable as well. So when we look at all that misery, it's like how long do you wanna hang around in this?
- Yeah.
- Not too long. So that's why this is important.
- Yeah, I agree. I actually wanna go back to something you said, 'cause this has brought up a question for me. So you were talking about assessments and that you do these like 360 leadership assessments, and that to many people, the information that comes forward is surprising. It's not what they were expecting. None of that shocks me. And the question that comes up for me is, in situations like that, when they are surprised, and I've had situations, like I've had the experience of people where not only are they surprised, but they will argue with you about why it's just wrong. Right, it's not only, I wasn't expecting that, but it is like, nope, the assessment was wrong. There was a bad, like whatever the reason is, right?
- I was in a bad mood when I did it, or I was feeling tired or I didn't give it enough attention. There's all these kind of stories that come out.
- Yeah, exactly, right.
- Yeah.
- So you're in a situation, like these things happen, and I'm using this as an example because I think it can be extrapolated regardless of the 360. But how do you move someone into that point of recognizing the pieces of it that they can adjust behavior for, that they can move through that resistance, move out of whatever it is that's holding them back, if they're unwilling to see it or they're in that place of complete resistance, right? Like how do you move them into, or how can someone move themselves into a behavior or even, I mean, I'm gonna start with acceptance of something.
- Yeah, I mean, if I think about somebody who has a very oppositional point of view, everything is a no. Everything is like that's a bad idea. Or they wanna blame other people for whatever it is that didn't go well.
- Yes.
- And you point out to them that their oppositional scores are fairly high. So what is that about resistance? Well, they just don't know how to do their job. That's not about me; that's about them. Okay, great. So if I was to say to you that maybe there's a piece in here that might be a little bit of insecurity on your part, well, again, that's gonna open them up a little bit. "No, I don't think that's about me." You hear this conversation, "No, I don't think that's me. "I don't think that's me at all.' Okay, so what happens for me with these behavioral assessments is they get very granular. I can really drill down into specific types of activities where somebody's got a good idea, and you shut them down before they start.
- Wow.
- So when you do that, what do you think that does to the team? They have to stop and think about that.
- Hmm.
- Then I'll get even more granular with it, and I'll say to them, okay, so if your knee-jerk reaction is to reject before you've had a chance to think about this, what would it look like if you were to just take a moment, just take a moment before you say no, and really consider is this something worthwhile or not, would that change your behavior? "Probably." Okay, great. Would you be willing to start there? I'm not asking you to accept everything that comes your way, but would you be willing to start there? So this is a coaching conversation that's taking place. Now, on the other side of things, you've got somebody who's high in perfectionism. Now they're hard drivers, they have high standards. They want everybody to be workin' long, hard hours and producing the results and so forth. But what's at core of that is the person is really hard on themselves, 'cause they have set themself. And at the core of a lot of this stuff is the fear of I'm not good enough. So if you look at the guy or the woman who's oppositional, and they have a knee-jerk reaction to that, it's like I can't let anybody in 'cause they'll see my weaknesses, they'll see my vulnerabilities. The perfectionist is exactly the same way. If I give an inch, well, then I'm not doin' my job properly and they're gonna take advantage of me. Okay, but when you can teach people how to be more, in perfectionism's position, to be more compassionate to self, and on an oppositional piece, which is to give a little bit more space, then things start to change again. And I think that it's that awakening, that self-awareness. Because that's the key to all of this behavioral work is that it's a light into whatever it is. And even if they wanna fight you on it, if you're a good coach, and I think I'm a good coach, it's about helping them to just look around the corners and see something a little bit differently. So it has to turn into a coaching conversation in that you can't just tell people what to do. There has to be that whole help-me-understand stuff and an exploration of whatever that problem is. And I'm giving you a long answer on this, but I think this is a really critical piece for self-development. And frankly, all of us should be lifelong learners, not only about our subject matters, but about ourselves.
- Yes.
- And if you're not paying attention to that, I mean, I've had executives who say, "I don't have time for self-reflection." Okay, great. So if you've got no time for self-reflection, how do you expect you and your team to grow? I mean, how many organizations resist paying to help people be better at who they are? I'll help you be better at your job, but I want to help you to be better at who you are. Because that's not my field, that's not my responsibility. That's up to you. But when we can create a more humanistic, encouraging environment within our organizations, and you really help people to understand how to collaborate and communicate more effectively, we talk about it in behavioral work as constructive, creating a constructive culture. That's what that's really all about.
- Well, it's so interesting. Thank you for that answer. It's so interesting what you said is, that idea of organizations help you do better at your job or do better at work, but they don't necessarily think about helping you do better at you, be a better you. And the truth is, and this is the thing that I always find so interesting is, organizations are filled with people who are who they are. If you are investing in them being a better them, if you're thinking about your own self-awareness, the people on your team's self-awareness, if you're thinking about development in that way, it ultimately helps them be better at their job 'cause they're the ones doing the job.
- Exactly.
- It's not two different things.
- Yeah, yeah. I mean, we look at leadership development programs, $365 billion is wasted on leadership development. I mean, that was the last number I looked at, and I don't think that's changed very much. So when we think about the dollars that are wasted. And I have a daughter who's in leadership, and I said, "Did they give you much leadership training?" She says, "Yeah, they throw a program at us occasionally, "and there it is." I said, "Does any of it actually stick?" She says, "No, not really, although I had one recently "that gave me some insights. "But no, most of it is just like, I'm too busy. "Gotta get back on the job again." And so I see this, and you see it, too, I'm sure. It's that short-term thinking.
- Yes.
- You put a Band-Aid on it. And what I like to say is Band-Aids don't stick after awhile. Put them underwater, they'll come off.
- Yeah. It's really interesting you say that, 'cause I think that my experience in that has been that a lot of those, I'm gonna pick on leadership development programs as the example, is that it's really a box to check. They've created something where you go in, you watch a video, you check a box, you walk away. The company checks a box and the person watching the video checks a box, or whatever, it's box checked, done. And there's no ongoing implementation. There's no opportunity to really actually utilize it. Or, in many cases, there's no way in the systems to even suggest how you could do that. And that is a big, it's a stopping point in my opinion. Because we are busy, and if we're just gonna go watch a video, I mean, you could go on TED and watch all the TED Talks you wanna watch about any topic.
- Absolutely.
- Many people are not doing that, and that does not necessarily help them do anything differently.
- That's it. I mean, it's a bit of entertainment, frankly, and maybe there was a couple of ideas that were worth thinkin' about, as Ted says, "ideas worth sharing," you can share the ideas, but are they utilizing the ideas, is the big deal. I mean, my famous example is I was brought in to do 66 behavioral studies for a company of 300. Okay, and-
- That's a lot, right? Like, that's a lot?
- That is a lot.
- Okay.
- I did 66 of them. So I did 66, and out of that 66, how many of them got coaching or follow-up?
- Oh, zero?
- Nine. Nine, nine of them out of 66. The rest were told, "Well, there's your report. "Go do somethin' with it." Yeah, that was interesting. Away you go.
- So I worked with an organization who had something similar happen where they got a bunch of 360s done. And as part of the 360s, everyone had two coaching calls to review their results, which is what the company who sold them the results called coaching. Well, no, they got coaching. But we went through and we had a plan for how they were gonna change their behavior in two calls. I just wanna note that that also is not follow-up coaching.
- No.
- That is not behavior change.
- You know, you can't have behavior change without accountability, and that's the key to it. And people need to feel like they're being encouraged and supported as well as challenged. I mean, I'm well-known in my work for being no bullshit and I will kick your ass if you need it. And that's how I approach things. Now, I know it's not for everybody, but if you're invested in change and you wanna change as fast as possible, that's my approach, too. But not without compassion, by the way. I'm not just a hard-ass on this. But what I do feel is that if you're here because you wanna change, because you're ready for change, then let's do the work. And that work means you've gotta get brutally honest with yourself about how you're showin' up and how it's working for you, and what do you wanna do to change that up? So again, to your point, crisis is created because of a refusal to change. Very simple. And God knows, I've had enough crisis in my own life to know what that looks and feels like. It's not pleasant. But once you get off the stick, once you finally have the courage to take that next step, you find out that it's a hell of a lot easier than you thought nine times out of 10.
- So I wanna ask about this next step, 'cause you mentioned at the beginning as well, and then we got on a topic, a tangent, because I was caught up in what you were saying. So this is not a bad thing at all, but I'm curious about, I hear a lotta time, I hear quite often that people, they don't take the next, I'm not saying this as an excuse, but I'm gonna offer this to you, I'd love your perspective, that in those moments, they don't know what the next step is. They don't have enough information. They're not even sure where to start. So how can they take action if they're not even sure where to start?
- Okay, so when you're in that place of I don't even know where to start, there's always something, always something that can be an incremental piece of "I can change that," whatever that might be. It doesn't mean to say, 'cause here's the other thing is, people think of the next step as being I gotta have the whole big picture. And I just did a graph on LinkedIn the other day there that said here's a woman standing in front of a staircase, and it's like you don't have to do all of it. You just have to do one. And it's about what one thing can you do that would start to change everything? You don't need to know where you're going. You don't need to know what that big picture out there looks like. You just need to know that, right now, there's one thing I can do that would start to make the changes that I wanna make. So there's no definitive answer for that, 'cause only the individual can answer that particular question. But there's always one thing, always.
- Well, it almost sounds like saying "I want to make a change" can be the first step, right?
- That's exactly right. There you go. I admit I wanna make a change. Terrific, all right. So what does change look like for you? Well, I wouldn't be so worried about this or I wouldn't be so overreactive to that, blah, blah, blah. Okay, great. So what's one thing you can do that would start to trigger a different reaction, different behavior, different thinking, whatever the case may be. And this is why we're coaches, and why more and more people should be taking a coach to be able to break through some of those barriers. Of course, you get the old thing about I can't afford you and I'm not sure what it is that I need to change right now. Okay, great. Well, let's have a conversation. Because your spouse or your people at work or whatever, they're not gonna get it the same way a coach does. But again, not all coaches are equal, so be careful about who you're choosing to go work with, if that's the choice you make. But even if you don't take a coach, start writing down what it is that you don't want, and then start writing out what you do want. And then think about what would be a small step that would lead me in that direction? I think that's a great exercise. It's one of the ones I do with my clients when they don't know.
- I love that as a starting point, and thank you for sharing that. 'Cause I think that a lotta times people hear conversations like this, and it's like, I don't even know where to start, like that doesn't apply to me 'cause I don't even know where to start, right?
- Yeah.
- And not even wanting to ask the question. 'Cause I hear that even with, when people are looking for coaches, they're like, I don't know where to start, I don't know what to work on. Or I don't know what I would do. And I always say this is my opinion, and I'm not saying this is yours, but my opinion is I was always like, look, you do not need a coach to be self-aware, to move forward, to progress and grow. You absolutely do not. You can do it on your own. However, it is much faster when you are working with someone who is trained to help you on that journey. It doesn't mean you have to. Do it on your own, get started. Maybe at a certain point you change your mind, but don't stop, or don't not step into the journey because of fear or because you don't have a coach or you don't know where to start.
- So here's where people get in their own way, too, on this one, which is, they think that by hiring a coach, there's something wrong with them.
- Oh, I hate that. Sorry.
- Yeah, I do, too. It's like, there's nothing wrong with you. It's just that if you're ambitious or even if you're not ambitious, but hopefully you are ambitious, you're choosing to accelerate your growth.
- Yeah.
- 'Cause that's really all it is. We help people accelerate their growth by asking the right questions, by helping them to open up the windows of whatever is in their minds, and taking the next step. And I'm always gonna come back to that one again, so.
- Yeah, taking the next step, I love it. Jacqueline, you are fascinating, and I would love to talk about fearlessness more, because I think it's such an important topic and I wanna be respectful of your time. So I'm gonna ask this question, which is, is there anything that we didn't get into that you would like to mention before we wrap up, or something you wanna emphasize? 'Cause you've said so many brilliant things. You mentioned your risk acronym, we talked about fearless, what the fearless factor is a little bit. We talked about taking those first steps. So is there anything that you either didn't mention or that you would like to emphasize before we wrap this up?
- I think I'm just gonna come back to the same idea as whatever you're fearful of, whatever you think is the worst-case scenario, trust yourself, trust that you know you can handle whatever circumstances come your way. Because that's another aspect of fear, I don't trust myself, and so therefore I don't trust other people. But when you learn to trust yourself, which is you have the confidence to know who you are, and you have the confidence to take authority or ownership of who you are, then you can handle whatever circumstances are coming your way, no matter what they are. And you will definitely get yourself out of crisis.
- Thank you for being such a wonderful guest and for sharing so many of your thoughts and insights with us. It's been a pleasure chatting with you, Jacqueline. And I know this is gonna be wildly valuable to my people, to the listeners, to my people, to the listeners. We will have all the links to your website in the show notes. Do you wanna just say it quickly for anyone listening who might not be in front of a computer?
- They can go to thefearlessfactoratwork.com and you'll find all the information you need about me, my programs and everything else that I've got goin' on.
- And definitely check it out, because Jacqueline is phenomenal, as you've all just heard. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you.
- Thank you, Celine, it's a pleasure.
- [Celine] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.