An award-winning financial planner, bestselling author, and speaker, Jackie Porter has helped thousands of clients grow their net worth, build a fortress around their finances, and keep more of their cash in their pocket. In this episode, we talk about how to become an effective leader in a remote work environment, as well as the challenges and gifts that we have commonly realized in navigating through the current crises.
Recently named Mackenzie 'Female Trailblazer of the Year' for 2019, Jackie has been featured on CBC, Sun TV, The Agenda, and BNN. She is the co-author of 'Single by Choice or Chance', is a leading expert in women and money, and is a powerful voice in the world of women's financial empowerment.
Jackie is a strong believer in the importance of having a support group and talking to coaches or mentors to get perspectives from outsiders about transitioning one’s business.
When dealing with her clients, Jackie considers herself as their confidant. She says, while they need her confidence to help them deal with their finances, they also have some real life issues to handle, especially during this time of the pandemic.
Jackie notes that in leading a remote team, she has more mental time and space, and has been tuning in more. She emphasizes the need for more conversations and transparency to be able to motivate and inspire people, and help them make informed decisions.
If you want to know more about what works for her remote team and how to be efficient in this kind of work environment, then this episode is for you!
Find out more about Jackie on her website: www.askjackie.ca
Connect with her through Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/askjackieporter
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/askjackieporter
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamjackieporter/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/askjackieporter
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring leadership in challenging times. I'm really excited today for my guest, Jackie Porter. Jackie is an award winning Financial Planner, Bestselling Author and Speaker, who has helped thousands of clients grow their net worth, build a fortress around their finances, and keep more of their cash in their pocket. She has been featured on CBC, Sun TV, The Agenda, and BNN. She was recently named Mackenzie 'Female Trailblazer of the Year' for 2019. Amazing. She is the Co-Author of 'Single by Choice or Chance', and is a leading expert in women and money, and a powerful voice in the world of women's financial empowerment. And I'm very honored to have you here today, Jackie, to talk about leading through crisis.
- Amazing, I'm really happy to be here. Love speaking with you, just love our conversations.
- Well, yeah, every time, every time we get on a call of any sort, I'm like, "Could we just do this every week, "all week, this is..." It's always so great. So I want to start with a really sort of open question for you, because, the idea of leading through crisis, or leading through challenging times, whatever they are, right now, it's the pandemic, but there's many ways that crisis and challenging time shows up. But I want to just kind of ask you, what has your experience been with that? Because, you are very clearly a leader.
- It has been a busy time. Like, I think back to March, I think it was March 15th, March 16th, when the pandemic hit, it was a really busy time in my practice. I just remember thinking, you know, now what, right? Now what? Because, you know, we were in that time period looking to, first of all, first and foremost, communicate with our clients, because, there was a very large correction in the market. So we wanted to communicate that, and how do we do that concisely? And so, that was a time where I was in lots of communication, both with my team, with my clients, sending out, you know, I drafted a letter that went out, actually, a week before the pandemic hit. Because, I'd been hearing through connections I had through the government that this, there was going to be a lockdown. And I started to tell clients that too. I was just thinking through, you know, how do I get prepared? How do I get my team prepared? How do I get my clients prepared for this reality? Because, it was still not being widely discussed. And so, it started with the letter saying, "Here's what's happening in the markets, "there's been this correction." I tried to be as authentic as I could with clients, to sort of say, "Here's the deal. "The market is facing this type of a correction." At the same time, I didn't want to scare them, or make them more anxious. It's kind of thinking through, how do I strike a balance between not scaring people to death, but making them, you know, apprised, keeping them apprised of what's going, what's happening. And that, that really, that really, for me, was a time I leaned on my network very, very closely. I know there's not that many, but I know a number of women that I have in my circle who are also advisors, and we lean on each other, we bounce ideas off of each other. During that time period, I was in communication with these women. It was like three other women that we all are in a nice tight circle and they, we mentor each other, we talk to each other. And so, we were just kind of thinking through these best practices. And I'm so grateful to have those people I could, I could talk to, be vulnerable with, talk about my fears for clients, for my business, and us come up with an action plan for all of you, for each of, each of us, to move forward. One was a letter, got the letter out. Then it was, how do I pivot my business to bringing, really, my office home for the long term, potentially, 'cause we just didn't know. We still don't know when this is going to be behind us. And then, how do I also get my team aligned? How do I get them successfully working from home? So we, you know, devised a plan, set up secure servers for myself at home, so we were able to do that a week ahead of time. And I'm so, so grateful for having that opportunity to learn a little bit ahead of the game what was going on. To start putting a plan together, and just was, instead of just while it was hitting, just before it hit, and really getting ahead of, of everything, in terms of communication and getting organized. It really, really
- Well, so a couple of things that I heard, that I think are really interesting. The first one is, that when you got the information, and you knew that this was coming ahead of time, or you knew that the lockdown, some version of it, whatever it was gonna look like, was likely, that you took it upon yourself to share whatever you knew. Which was, it might've just been, this is a likely situation, not a this is a for sure situation, recognizing that. But that you took it upon yourself to be transparent, and share the information you had. Not, no, you know, no guarantees, this isn't 100% right or wrong, but here's what the, here's what is likely to happen. And when we are informed, when your people are informed, your clients, your team, whoever it is, when the more information that is out there, the more data they have, the better they can make their own decisions. And I think-
- That's right.
- From a leadership perspective, that is huge, right, that transparency. And not saying, I know that this is right or wrong, but this is what I'm hearing, and you can use this to make the most informed decisions. I think that's a really important piece of leading any time there's challenging things happening. Because, I think our tendency is to, for a lot of leaders it's, I don't want a broad, not for everyone, but I think for a lot of leaders, unless they know for sure, or they are going to write about it, they don't want to share. They don't want to instill fear, or make a mistake, or add to the problem. And the truth is, that there's a balance of, here's information, let me be transparent, and you are all adults who can take this and make decisions.
- Yeah, yeah, and I'm actually glad that, you know, as we got information, we passed it on to clients. It reduced the number of calls we got. I actually communicated the same information to my dealership, like, who, they didn't know! And so we had conversations, worked out what-if scenarios. They got ahead of things before, you know, other financial organizations did, and we were all better for knowing, right? At least, at least, if we knew this worst case scenario when it's coming, we'd have a plan of action for how we would move forward. So we started to talk through, well, what if, you know, what if I'm not here? What if my team's not here? And it's funny, we had, we had put stuff in place before the pandemic hit. They had just come on with electronic signature for everything, and I was just starting to adopt that. And truly, I adopted that in my practice just because I hate paper. I hate administrative tasks. I hated driving, so if I could get, do things more efficiently, because, life was getting busier and busier. So if I could do things more efficiently, without having to be in front of a client. Maybe I can contact them by phone, or by video chat, like we're doing now, like I saw the value of that. I was seeing the value of that over the last 12 months in my practice, and how much time it saved me, so we were fully adopting that. So, from that perspective, you know, we were in a much better place during the pandemic than, than some other, other types of companies that might have not embraced the technology for things like electronic signatures. I'm really, really grateful we had implemented that well ahead of that time.
- It's amazing what that little bit of information allows you to do from a planning, and sort of risk, risk mitigation standpoint, right? And if the pandemic hadn't happened, or if the lockdown hadn't happened, then you have a great new service that you can offer people that saves them time, as well, like, there's so many bonuses either way. I love that. Another thing you said, that I wanted to not lose sight of, there's two more things. Another thing you said, was that you have a network of women around you that you relied on. And I think that that's another really important thing to mention, and I don't want to lose the importance of. There's no one person out there. I don't care if you're the president of a 50,000 person organization, it does not make a difference who you are, there's no one person who can, on their own, as an island, get through this without comfort, or discussion, or any challenging time you need perspective. And that's what that gave you, right, comfort, all those things, but also perspective? And I think that is hugely important to emphasize, that it's not like you went, oh, I'm, things are happening, let me double down on being on my own all of the .
- Yes, I am so, definitely, you know, every heroin needs other heroes, right? And the truth is, you know, I rely heavily on that network, because, being in finance, especially as a woman, can be a lonely place to be, right? People tend to want to hold information they think they have close to their chest, because, what could happen? Could you do better than them? Could they do better than you, with information that they might have accessible? And so, to be in this, this community with women who were all financial planners, we're all trying to do well, and we all are supporting each other, that, for me, is such a game changer. I mean, we all believe in abundance, we all believe there's enough business out there for everyone. So to even operate from a mindset of abundance, and support one another, just means we all can be stronger, and we all, you know, feel very passionately about that. In a time like this, where there's so much sense of scarcity out there in the world, there's so much uncertainty, it's just wonderful to have that sisterhood, that support. For me, it really, it, well, bolsters me, when I have my own moments of fear, and anxiety about, you know, just kind of the state of the world, and where things are in the business, and it's just great to have that, that support. You know, I think every business person should try to build some kind of a council around them, to help them make decisions. Because, in a time of crisis, when you're emotionally invested, it's hard sometimes to see the forest for the trees. It's really hard when you're so close to a business that you've invested your time, your money, your life to, that making decisions without counsel, it might put you at even more risk than you realize.
- I think that's... I mean, incredibly important information, and tips, and whatever you want to call it for any business owner, any leader executives are these, if you are managing people, you also need a council of people around you. You need someone who's gonna offer you different perspectives than your own. I have to say, I hadn't even really thought about the added difficulty of the industry that you're in. As a woman in a, I mean, finance is still heavily male-dominated, it's just a reality. It's not necessarily a, you know, a criticism of the situation, but it's, it's real. My guess is, that that, to what it sounds like, through what you're saying, that it's very competitive, generally speaking. And so, the fact that you have stepped into, you know, the work that you're doing, the way that you're doing it, how, you know, the people you work with, the level at which you are operating in such a heavily male-dominated world, and done it in a way that isn't competitive, holding stuff to your chest, there's not enough, let me, you know, that dog-eat-dog, cutthroat sort of mentality, I think speaks volumes about who you are, and how you show up in the world.
- I really appreciate that, and I think the way... I really would love to see more women in this field. Because, I think that that, as a culture, we can create a different culture, as well, for the financial industry, because... And I'm not saying all men are...who are in the industry are all, you know, dog-eat-dog, dog, and it's competitive, they, well, are all competitive, that's not true either. But I think that the culture, that culture, you know, the Wall Street culture is, is still unfortunately alive and well. And I think the more women step into it, because, we might see the world a little bit differently, we might, we might think about supporting each other differently, it doesn't have to be this way. And I'm, as I said, I'm grateful every day for having that, that way of seeing the world, you know, confirmed to me by the, the women I do surround myself with, by the people I surround myself with.
- And I have to say, having worked with some women in finance over the years, I, first of all, wish I had known you, to be able to connect you with them, just full disclosure. But also, it's really heartening to hear this, because, what I have seen in my experiences... This is anecdotal, this is not, you know, by no means generalizing. But, what I have seen, is that the women, and this is true in also law, and lots of very heavily sort of masculine energy, male-dominated fields-
- That's it.
- Is that women feel the need to be more like men. They need to be as competitive, whatever that is, as the men, and in order to survive, thrive, rise up inside of those ranks. You are living proof that that is not the case.
- That's, that's-
- That you can. Yeah.
- That's true, you're 100% right, and I talk about the fact that women, the more women who enter the industry, that masculine energy you're talking about, we have an opportunity to what I call feminize the industry, right? To make it less about that you versus me. There's also that level of rank and file where, you know, in the industry that I'm in I find that, that women, sometimes, they feel talked down to by men. Especially, in a advisory sort of scenario, where they may not know a lot, and the, if they're a female, they might feel that, that shamed for not knowing a lot. So I think, I think there's a lot around how the financial industry sees women, addresses women, how we, we serve women. All of those things can be changed by, you know, having more feminine energy, showing an alternative way to work with people, where it's about addressing things that they care about. Not shaming, not blaming, making them feel that they have a safe space to talk about things that really matter around money, not just numbers. So there's a lot to be done, as far as I'm concerned, with feminizing the industry, and women have a lot to say, and women have a lot to do with it.
- Well, and I would, I would say that there's a lot to be done with feminizing the concept of leadership. Period.
- Absolutely. Absolutely.
- And it's, you know, I think it's why people like Brene Brown, and "Dare to Lead," and all of those concepts have really risen to the forefront recently. And I say this noting that most in, most organizations are still not adopting those concepts. But, it's a conversation with a lot of people, because, it is a more feminine energy way of approaching things. It is not assuming that the way that leadership's been done in the past, and the fact that it was so competitive, male-dominated, all of that, is the wave of the future. And I think what you're talking about applies to so many places.
- No, 100%, in fact, it's one of the reasons why I call myself a confidant, right? I talk about being a confidant around the fact that, you know, there's two aspects to dealing with someone, and dealing with their money. One is, they have to have the confidence that you're good at what you do. And, as a woman, or a man, you should be able to ask them how they make their money, what credentials they have, and what's their process? So you can get confidence that, you know, you're in the right chair. A referral is always good. On the other side of that, I also, as someone who, who's working with you, and you're working with, and they're gonna deal with your money, you also need to feel that you can confide in them. But you can only do that when you feel comfortable, right, you feel confident? So being able to confide means a level of trust that isn't just about their credentials. It's I'm in a safe space. I won't be blamed, or shamed. I can talk about the things I really care about, because, in a pandemic, it's not just about rate of returns, right? There's a lot of life issues. You know, taking time off to take care of my aging parent, that could be going on. I could have lost a job. Now what? What are my priorities? How do I help somebody talk through that? I'm having issues with my partner. There's a lot of divorces happening through a lockdown. I'm having issues with my partner. Can I afford to leave? Like, there's some real issues! And if I can't talk about the things that I care about with you, as an advisor, then trust your gut, ladies and gentlemen out there, run, don't walk from that scenario. Because, money is not going to be the only thing that's gonna matter in that scenario.
- Yeah, I think that that is just brilliant advice, and people need to hear that, right? Again, I think it's, it's absolutely 100% true of the finance industry, of a financial advisor, and I think it's true in a lot more cases, as well, and this is the, you know, emotions, and trust, and vulnerability, and all of those quote, feminine energy things, that we don't like to talk about in business, 'cause there's no crying in baseball.
- Those-
- Yes, yet.
- Yet, right? But those matter. And it does... If you can't be vulnerable with the people that you are, whether you are paying them, whether they are giving you advice, whether you are reporting into them, if you can't be yourself, and be vulnerable, and talk about the things that matter most, then they're probably not, it's probably not the person you want as that advisor, as your boss, as the whatever, in the long run.
- No, that's so true. Again, going back to that, that friend of mine, who's looking to leave his job. And he was telling me, like, his manager is terrible. And he's been talking about trying to get work, trying to get sales in in the last quarter, in his business, and talking to his manager and saying, you know, he hasn't had a lot of success. And they had a conversation recently, and the conversation went well in his mind. And he said, you know, "You know, this is what I'd love, "is if we could have more conversations around, "you know, strategy to help look at ways to, "in this last quarter, really get results happening." And his...his manager abruptly, abruptly hung-up, and then emailed him and said, you know, "I'm not really quite sure "where you're going with this. "Maybe you should talk to an EAP person. "I just don't understand why "this is what you're expecting from our conversations." I thought, exactly. So some empathetic leadership could be, could be dealt, dealt with there. I think she doesn't realize who really has the problem here.
- Right.
- And then what being a leader, and leading with empathy, especially, with a single person living by themself during a pandemic, who might be having some mental health struggles, might need more encouragement, more motivation, you know, you being more tuned in, as a leader. Because, if you're trying to get results, it's all about getting results. The how is a little less important, especially, if you're trying to, you know, help people be their best, while you become your best, right? Like you kinda, it's a, it's a win-win, right? The way that she approached that just made me think, you know, and this is a woman too, right? It's that talking about that whole you think you have to lead a certain way, based on what you've already seen in the past.
- Yeah.
- And that doesn't necessarily mean it's working, it's just how we've always done things.
- Well, we are, absolutely, we're all socialized to see things a certain way and, and exposed to things in a certain way. There are a lot of women, and men, who are not naturally inclined to lead or show up that way. Because, they've been socialized to think that this is what success looks like, and this is how it's supposed to be, they, they continue to, you know, be that way, if you like. I know my experience has been, with any crisis, let alone the pandemic, but anytime there's been change, whether it's, you know, two companies merging together, whatever the case may be, taking on new people, that the most successful leaders are the ones who are leading with empathy, and with understanding, and with transparency, and with vulnerability, and with openness to all of sort of the points that you've brought up. Those are the ones that are successful.
- Yeah. I don't know, I think this is a really interesting time that we're living in, because, we can kind of see what the results are of leaders. Because, there's so many examples around the world of, you know, leaders, political leaders, where there is no empathy, there is no sense of trying to take responsibility or, you know, thinking through, you know, what I'm doing, how is that going to actually help my team? How's it not going to help my team? How do I show up authentically? How do I inspire? I mean, these are all the things I think, as a leader, you have to constantly be aware of. Because, at the end of the day, people aren't gonna just stay for the money. They might stay in the short-term, looking for, you know, an exit door stage left at their soonest opportunity, and then, what was the point of all of that, right? What you want, is to just confirm the people who are in the chairs really want to be there, and then help to motivate them, and inspire them, and challenge them to move forward. You know, that's actually just a better reason to wake up in the morning, and spend your time in an office, or in your home office these days. It's a reason to spend time there, versus the opposite, right? Which, to me, just, what's the point?
- 100%. I do want to, the last thing that you said at the top, that I wanted to touch on, was this idea of, you know, getting everything set up, and then now you're working from home, your team is working from home, you're not in the same office anymore. You know, from your perspective, as you have gone through that process, and are now six months into it-ish.
- Yes. It feels like a year or two, but, yeah, six months into it. The COVID year is longer.
- Yeah, six months into this new way of working, what have you, what have you learned? What has worked for you inside of that? What has been challenging? Because, you're now leading a remote team. Listen, I respect that you had a week to set up leading this remote, this remote team. When companies go remote, they have like a six month plan to do it, normally, even if it's a small team, 'cause it's a big change.
- It is, it is. I think, for me, that the challenge, and the gift has been tuning in more, right? And not taking, taking for granted what everybody's doing, and how everybody's doing, so what they're doing and how they're doing. When you see people at the office, right, it's something to be said for seeing people, and seeing people, they look busy, what have you? I took that a bit more for granted, that things were happening, that things were being done. And I find that now that I'm working remotely, I take nothing for granted. Like I, I feel, I feel more compelled to be fully tuned in. And it helps that I'm not moving around as much, too, so I have, I feel like I have a lot more mental time and space to just not take anything for granted. And, in fact, that's what I said to a team member today. We were talking through a process between her and another employee, and she said, "Well, I'm pretty sure that she has that." And I'm like, "Are we?" Because, you know, one of the lessons I've learned about this, is just take nothing for granted. Let's just check, let's just confirm. And so, tuning in has, had made me look at like, as a result of that, I've re-engineered some processes inside my company. Because, you know, I'm having more conversations with my team, so being remote means I'm having a lot more conversations with my team. We have actually a lot more things documented down than we did before, where it was kind of there, it was in my head, it was in their head, I have an idea. But now, I can't take anything for granted. Let's have everything written down. Plus, we have all of our projects on project apps, right? Before it was on a spreadsheet, or what have you, and it was, it was on somebody's computer. Now everything needs to be transparent, seen. We need to know where we are in the process. So it's, it's forced me to become way more tech savvy. Have way more organized, because, it's, it's hard to not be organized and be remote. And then in terms of, like I said, it was a gift. And the challenge is, being tuned in too is, you know, I'm identifying. Like I have a couple of remote workers who joined my team, who were foreign workers. They started off as students. They've been with me for a couple of years, now they're full-time, but they're just in the process of getting all of their, you know, status here in Canada. And so, they're here by themselves. Right? And so, I see the anxiety, and I see how much more they rely on me. And so, it's just trying to strike a balance with recognizing kind of where they're at with, all right, I have to get stuff done, as well, and all of that, so it's just really striking that balance. But just really making sure they know I am there for them. I mean, we went through this one scenario where their health insurance was gonna be finished, and then they wouldn't OHIP. So it's just working through, because, they're here by themselves, there's a pandemic going on! They're worried that if something happens, so, you know, we just work through all of those things. Because, you know, I'm not in their shoes. I don't know exactly what it's like to be in that situation. But, you know, we've had lots of conversations over, you know, teams, to kind of get a sense of, you know, what are the best next steps for them, just to make sure they are comfortable, what can I do? And we come up with a plan. It's not something that makes them 100% happy. It's not something that makes me 100% happy. But, you know, let's meet in the middle somewhere. I find that we have a lot more rich conversations, actually, because, we have time and space to do it. We can do it over... Like if they need to tell me something, to make sure I understand, they can send me a text, and it's all there. And it's not like a quick, I see them in the office for five minutes, right, 'cause I'm on my way to something else. I would say it's been a challenge, and a gift, and it's given me a lot more insight into, you know, why things need to be written down. Why processes need to be created. There's a lot less that I take for granted.
- I think that's really extraordinarily powerful. I think that there, you know, there's a lot of wonderful things that come from being in-person, and in connection with people in an office. That are... Some of those aspects are hard to replace, in terms of connection, and I fully appreciate that, because, human-to-human, in-person, the way our brains line up there, it's different. I get that, I'm not denying that. There is something to be said for having the ability to take a step back, and realize what you do take for granted, or what expectations are there that aren't being spoken, or what processes, to your point, are actually not that great. They just work, because, in-person you can make them work.
- That's right.
- You know, that this works because it has to work, not because it's really ideal. So how can you find the efficiencies, and how can you take a step back? You know, I talk a lot about not making assumptions. And, I think that we, and all people do it. It's not, I think we all make assumptions, because, our brain uses the information from the past to predict the future. And, when you're in-person with someone, when you see them every single day, it is so much easier to make assumptions, because, you're connecting all of the behaviors, and stories, and conversations into other things. And when you take a step out of it, and you are forced to ask different questions, or get information differently, then we stop taking things for granted, and we stop making assumptions, and we actually come up with better ways of communicated, communicating, doing things, being, working together, whatever the case may be. And it sounds like, right now, you're sort of living proof of that.
- I do have to say, like I, like I said, I'm grateful, in some respects. Like the silver lining for me, for the pandemic, is I've had more thinking time and space. And I've been asking the universe for time, thinking time and space for, you know, a year, a year and a half. Didn't expect that it was gonna send me COVID. That wasn't the gift I was looking for that was gonna keep giving. But the silver lining for me is, I've had a lot more time to think about, you know, how do I want my team to develop? How do I want to develop as a leader? You know, what's the next thing I want to happen around, you know, what might, what I want for my company, what I want personally. It's certainly shifted my priorities, as well, personally, in terms of, you know, staying in touch with, with the people who I really care about, and want to know that they're okay. So I'm, you know, grateful, as well for, you know, the silver linings that have come out of COVID. Not so much for COVID. But, you know, for the silver linings that I've discovered.
- I agree with that. I think there are definitely silver linings. And I also want to acknowledge that, you know, one of my challenge has been, challenges has been, and I don't know if you're experiencing this, and I by no means want to only say there's silver linings, but, I have, my work involves a lot of calls, in general. And I do things like podcast interviews, and Zoom calls. There are so many people who I would like to connect with, or chat with, or send a text to, and I am, I feel like more of my energy goes into calls, and connecting now, than ever.
- Yes.
- And there's a lotta people that are not, that I'm not able to spend that time on.
- That's so true. Yes, I agree, I absolutely... In fact, sometimes I forget who my friends are, because, I spend so much time online with my online friends. And, you know, and that's when it's great when, when I do pick up the phone, like I have a lot of long, established relationships. You know, one of my best friends from when I was 16, and we used to share a bed at some, at one point. Before, my partner thought, when she came to visit in the spring, that he was gonna have to move over a little bit, to set her there. But, she, he locked up. In any case, you know, I don't talk to her every day, I don't even talk to her once a month. But, what's great, is she'll call, and I'll call, and it's like we pick up wherever we've left off, right?
- Yeah.
- And I am so grateful for those friends who, even if they don't talk to me every day, we always just pick up where we left off. Those are, to me, the most amazing friendships, just because we have such a long history, we get one another, we get the struggle, we get the responsibility, we get what you're talking about right now, which is, is you are on like these online platforms all the time. Sometimes, it can be really draining and you can just totally feel Zoomed out. Just I'm, and so, I think, I think you're right, I think that's, that's definitely something I've found, as well. How I've sort of worked through that is, you know, we, I have this sort of scenario with, I'm grateful for, with friends where, even if we don't speak all the time, when we do, it's meaningful, and it's a great just catch-up. And there's no shame or blame. Let's just keep shame or blame out of everybody's lives. You know? Where have you been? Nobody needs that! We're in a pandemic, for God's sake, let's just be kinder and gentler to ourselves, and one another.
- Yeah, I could not agree with that more. I could not agree with that more. And again, I think it's a wonderful reiteration of that idea that we're not islands, we're not out there on our own, we can't, you know, there's no... I mean, everyone is in some form of a crisis or challenging time right now. But there's no one who can brave that on their own. It's not, you're not in the middle of a storm on your own. Whether you have professional contacts, whether you have friends around you, it is about recognizing that we're not islands, and we need people to talk to, and we need connections to be made, whatever that looks like.
- Yeah, yeah, and so, have, I should put on my phone, who are my SOS calls, if I'm having one of those, those really bad days, and I just need, like I... No, they're in my head mostly. But, you know, it's great to know I have those people I can reach out to, and we're not gonna have this conversation where we give each other guilt for not calling, or not, whatever. We can just be there for one another, and that's a huge gift. That's a amazing gift, at this point in time.
- It's a, it's a gift that I wish more of us, myself included, were grateful for, and consciously grateful for. Right?
- Exactly.
- In moments like this, and conversations like this, I'm like, oh, yeah, I have the, my best friend is the best, I'm super lucky. But it's not, you know, I'm not always consciously grateful for the people around me.
- Yeah. I mean, all, then all you can do is give yourself reminders, right? Just say, oh, this is an opportunity for being reminded. Like for all the people that's listening, this is a great opportunity for being, to be reminded of, you know, the gift of friendship and people that, you know, we can count on, and mentors, and people that push us and challenge us, even if it's our team. Right, yes, it's not always, it doesn't feel that great always in the moment, but. But, you know, it's great to have work, that even if it's challenging sometimes, you have work. It's grateful to have friendships, that even if we don't always talk to them all the time, we have them, and they can be counted on, even if we don't give anything to them. Like it's a, those things, to me, are all such amazing gifts. And I, I think, like everyone else, I have to constantly remind myself that I'm lucky to have them.
- Yeah, I, I completely agree. And for what it's worth, I feel lucky to have you, and to be able to have this conversation with you.
- Thank you, thank you, this has been amazing. Having so much fun.
- Well, I appreciate that, and I want to be respectful of your time. And so, I do want to ask, is there, is there anything that we haven't gotten into, or that you want to emphasize, before we wrap this up, for the people listening to this? Because, we've, I mean, I think the most beautiful thing about our conversation, is that they're very organic, and they weave lots of pieces together. And I don't want, by any stretch, to lose something that you want to emphasize, or you feel is really important as a takeaway.
- Yeah, I think something that we were talking about before we started to record, and just that, you know, as a leader, we're not infallible. You know, I was talking about my group of women who helped to help me get perspective in hard times, and when I'm challenged and, you know, I run out of answers and, you know, I have so much money invested in my company, and, you know, something comes up, an HR issue comes up, and I'm just so emotional about it that I just, I'm stuck. And I just think, if there are people who are going through just the financial challenges of a pandemic, and their business isn't going well, or their career isn't going well, they've got transition, I think this is a really important time to get help, to get help outside of your network. Maybe your friends are too close, as well. Hire somebody, hire a coach. You know, have,...if you have a mentor, talk to your mentor and maybe they can help you to think, well, how can I sort of reshuffle, reshift, pivot my business in a different direction? Because, my bank account's going down, and I'm scared, and I'm not really sure what I can do next. Because, what I've always done in the past, you know, as you were saying before quite aptly, what got me to this level has worked, but that doesn't mean it's gonna work for where I need to go next. And I think that's something, as a leader, we have to talk about, because, there are lots of people who are doing well in this market, but there are so many people who aren't. Hopefully, they hear that, just because it's not working, that doesn't mean all the things they did are wrong, they've made mistakes. Even if they spent all the money, they had a good year last year and they spent it, and now they're regretting it, no sense beating yourself up, what's next? What do we do next? What's the next practical step that you need to take? I think, one of the things, I talk to business owners a lot about is, setting up a complimentary stream of income. We see the companies do this all the time, they want to buy a market, like Apple wants to own everything, right? Amazon wants to own every aspect of their, of this, that they want to own the supplier chain, they want to own the distribution chain, they want to own every... So like, how in your business can you structure your business, so not only are you getting the income, the revenue from the actual thing that you do? Maybe there's another product or service that you could offer that would be complimentary. But building these additional streams of income in your business, that's not reliant on one thing is crucial. And maybe if you're not sure what that is, and like I said, it's a good time to talk to your council, to figure out what your next step is. And if you're, you know, somebody who's, somebody who's lost a job and you're, you're not sure what to do next, because, you know, you're not getting, you're older, looking for employment, and, you know, you're not seeing necessarily these calls coming in. You can talk to a career coach. How can you use your gifts and talents for the next career move? Is this a time to start a business? Maybe there's something that you're, you're, you know, burning to do. But, what we, we know in a pandemic, is sometimes life can be very fragile. This is a really good time to just decide, you know, the things you really care about, and work towards the things you really care about. Because, maybe you'll have time to live the life you really want, maybe you won't. But wouldn't it be better if you could plan for the life you want? That'd be a good reason for me to get up in the morning, and I'm sure, for a lot of people.
- Yeah, I think that's a really poignant and perfect way to end this, because, you're right, right? It's living that purpose, finding that purpose, having a reason, and not getting stuck in the way that I've done things to date, is the only way to do things. Which is very natural for our brains, because, our brains want to keep us safe. So our brain is like, well, this thing has worked, let's just keep doing this thing.
- Well, this is it, and, you know what? And our ego can sometimes be our worst enemy, right?
- Oh, yeah.
- 'Cause it's gonna confirm that, it's gonna get, we're gonna find things in the universe to confirm what we already know. And that's where, as they said, that's where somebody who comes in from the outside. Because, you know, at the end of the day, ego is one thing. Money, and livelihood, and living the life you want is a complete other. What do you really want? You probably want your bank account to start being replenished. So let's take ego out of this, and let's find purpose, and let's find the next plan.
- Yeah. Agreed, 100% agreed. I want to thank you, for taking the time to chat with me today, I really appreciate it. All of the links to find Jackie online will be in the show notes, per usual. But you can find her at www.askjackie.ca, and that's J-A-C-K-I-E.
- Awesome!
- And I, like always, love talking to you. So thank you, for taking the time to chat with me today, it's super appreciated.
- It's been such a pleasure, thank you, again, Celine.
- Any time. Thanks, for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please, take a minute to rate and review it in your podcast app. And you can always learn more about any of our guests at www.leadingthroughcrisis.com.