What does "transparent leadership" mean? How can you achieve it? And, what is the benefit? Practical tips to ensure your success, regardless of circumstance.
Experiencing a crisis can feel really scary, especially when there's no one-size-fits-all blueprint to get through it. However, there are some really practical things you can do to help you deal with whatever comes up and thrive in the midst of it -- whether you are a leader or an employee.
In this conversation, Ian and I discuss:
- Appropriate sharing
- Gratitude
- Overcommunication
- Relationship capital
- Sitting with discomfort
- And, resisting the urge to be perfect
"Most of us are in a crisis, coming out of one, or about to go into one. So, it’s not as if these things never happen. Something IS going to hit the fan. Let’s not be naive and think it won’t."
This conversation will put you in a better place to guide yourself and/or your team through it.
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To learn more about Ian Daley you can find him online at https://daley.company/. As well as on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-daley-6a992b17/), Facebook (Daley Co.), and Twitter (@IanDaley1).
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. So my guest today is Ian Daley, who is the founder of Daley & Co, a leadership consulting and training company driven to develop the next generation of high-caliber leaders. He's also the host of "The New Leader" podcast, which I had the privilege to be a guest on last year. So Ian, thank you for joining me today.
Well, thank you for having me, Celine. I'm looking forward to reconnecting and talking shop.
Absolutely. We had a great conversation last year, so it's a privilege to have you on my podcast now and catch up 'cause it's been almost a year.
It has, yeah. It's gone by quickly, very quickly.
Yup, time has no meaning anymore. That's what I keep saying. We've lost all sense of time. So I always like to start the podcast just by sort of opening up the conversation, asking, when you hear the concept or the term leading through crisis or leading through challenging times, what comes up for you inside of that? What does that mean to you?
Yeah, so I think there's a lot in that question. And, to me, it'll mean different things at different times. So that would've meant something different to me as an employee encountering that first crisis. Would it mean something different to me as a leader encountering that? So maybe I'll start with a story on as an employee. So I think back 10, 12 years ago, I had been working in the pharmaceutical sector. So I started off my career in that in federal government in Ottawa. And then quickly kinda realized that, after a few years, that wasn't for me.
Right.
And so I went into the private sector and got into pharmaceutical sales. So really enjoyed it. Did a couple of years at that. I got very good at that. Then, of course, got promoted into that first head office role, but into a job, in retrospect, that I probably wasn't really meant to do, bit of a square peg, round hole. And so through that, I also had a manager at that time who was good at their job, but we had very different communication styles. So when I think about that, the crisis moment that I'll describe here is, and I'm sure someone listeners can relate, is when you have crisis at work and then also at home. So at that time I had just gotten this promotion. I had moved physically with my then partner. And she and I, just things didn't really start to work out when we did that. And then as I started to go through this work challenge with my boss, there was no real kinda safe place, if you will, to have calm or have peace. And so you go to work, you're stressed about home, and vice versa. So in the work piece, I would go in there, and it lasted, that role, about a year. And I think part of the reason it lasted that long, it didn't go the way I'd hoped, was our communication styles, number one, all the stress in my life, but looking back on it, that crisis, to me, could've been prevented by a couple of things, at least for me on my side. It may not have changed the outcome. So what I mean by that is, at that time, I think there was three things I could've done a little bit differently. So one is just to be a bit more vulnerable, and I'm speaking about in the workplace. Obviously, there's limits on those types of things, some different comfort levels for people. But I should've been more vulnerable with my manager at that time to let her know I've got some stuff happening in my life, and I didn't. I was still wearing that badge of honor. First time head office job. Gotta make it look like I'm knowing what I'm doing. So that was a learning barrier in terms of leading through a crisis, just as an employee. Because I'm a big believer that if we can't lead individually as we advance in our career, good luck leading a team through a crisis if you yourself can't do it. So I think vulnerability was the first thing. The second thing for me was seeking help. Again, looking back on it, I'm sure that I could've found some people, three to five individuals, that I could've tapped to say, hey, have you ever gone through this, whether that's a friend, a mentor, family member, ex-colleague. I probably wouldn't have done it with someone in that company. But my message here is ask for help. It's okay to bounce ideas and open up and find a solution. We always go through these things with a narrative in our own mind. It's like it's amazing how long I went through that and just kept that all in like I was supposed to know how to solve that. So I'd say be vulnerable, seek help. But the third thing for me would've been stepping back. So really just taking a moment to get perspective. And there's a lot of data out there in the positive psychology space on optimism versus pessimism. And we won't do a deep dive on that today. But if you think about pessimists generally see more crisis as permanent, global, the world is ending, what am I gonna do? And optimists tend to see it as more localized. It's here now, but it will pass. And so I tend to, if I look back now, it's those three things, be vulnerable, seek help, and take a step back and know that whatever you're going through won't last forever.
So I think I love that. I think those are all really important. And it's really interesting because I think for a lot of people, when they hear the idea of like leading through crisis or leadership, they tend to skip over the leading yourself part, which is that idea of being vulnerable, knowing when to ask for help. These are all really important aspects of leading yourself as is that perspective, right? And I think that, I know it's not the necessarily the language you use inside of that specifically, but that's what stands out to me right away is we cannot forget how important it is to be able to lead ourselves in those challenging times because that's how we are an effective leader for other people.
Yeah, absolutely. It's impossible to do. I mean, we will do it, but it won't work nearly as well or be optimal as someone who's taken the time to have that level of self-awareness and at least reflection, maybe, to improve upon what they've gone through.
Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. And I think it is... I wanna touch on something inside of vulnerability really quickly because I think what you said around there's comfort levels with vulnerability, right? And it has to be something that you're comfortable with and works inside of the organization and the culture that exists there and whatever that looks like. But I think it's really important to note that the more vulnerable we can be about what we do or don't know as a baseline, let alone on top of it what our situations are, and we can show up as whole people to work in a way that you might not have said to your boss, listen, here's all of the things that are happening at home, and here's all the reasons that this is challenging, and here's all. You might not have just like said all of the things that were at the top of your mind, but when there's space to say enough of it that you can show up as that whole person that has a home life and that you're okay to do that, the better we all are at navigating whatever crisis or challenge is in front of us.
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And I also, when I say that word vulnerability, I can hear like the skeptics. I can see. I can dream right now and see the eye-rolling and, oh, here we go, vulnerability. But you hit on something there about what is appropriate. So it's all about our own comfort level, number one, but there is such thing as the oversharing, too. There's a big difference, for example, in me saying to my manager then, I'm going through a really crappy time at home, like here's what I'm dealing with. I just wanna put that out there so we can build that into our plan here, so they know it. That's different than a brand new VP of finance saying, jeez, I'm kinda puzzled by this balance sheet. I mean, that's one of those things that can impact your credibility depending upon how open you are. So I do think, in this case, it's more about that personal side of, as a manager, likely would've been helpful for her to know what was really going on beneath the surface.
I also, I think what you just said there is really powerful and it's totally gonna be a quote, I guarantee, that we pull out of this, but that idea of impacting your credibility, that there's a difference between knowing when to share because it actually gives space inside of the relationship in the workplace for you to be able to do your best and sharing in such a way where it's impacting your credibility. Because you having a home life, you having... When my, I use this example all the time, but when my mother died, I was opting out of everything that I had to do for my business out of necessity.
Of course.
And if I hadn't been really transparent of like, hey, here's what's going on, here's what I'm dealing with, this is not a whatever situation, that could, one, could've impacted my credibility, but two, it actually gave space inside the relationships for the people that I was working with to give me grace and understanding.
Yeah.
And there's a big-
Yeah, that's a very, very good, clear example, yeah.
And there's a big difference between I am putting space into this for grace and understanding and I'm doing something that is going to impact my credibility.
Yeah. Yeah, it's very well-said. And it does come to that sense of self-awareness, whatever you wanna call that, or emotional intelligence. Yeah, that's a very clear example that if you didn't do that, now someone's gonna go, what is up with her? She's MIA. The work is failing. And then it becomes like the reputation comes into the equation. And by you opening the door to that, I'm sure that enhanced those relationships.
And I appreciate you sharing that you would have, in retrospect, been more vulnerable in those moments because you see now where you are. And I'm gonna ask a follow-up question about leading in different situations rather than just as an employee. But it, in retrospect, because of what you've learned from other lessons, you recognize that there would have been an opportunity. This could have gone differently and been more comfortable. There could've been more ease, whatever it was, for you at that time, which brings me to-
For sure.
Which brings me to the question is, can you tell me about some other situations where you weren't an employee that taught you some of those lessons, possibly?
Yeah, so I mean, one that comes to mind, and this was kind of fast forward from that 10-year story I just gave, too, and so this happened mid, end of 2019. I was still then in a corporate role as a director of learning development with a pharmaceutical company. And so it was a unique one in the sense of the crisis is happening both to the organization to a certain degree and myself. So let me explain. At that time, global forecasts were saying there's a downturn coming. Recession is on the way. This is all pre-COVID. That was already being said before we hit the pandemic. So many organizations were already in their early stages of tightening the belt. And it can call it efficiencies and what have you, but everyone was looking at where can we kinda centralize, where can we save money? In our case, the organization was looking at the research and development, and also anything on the people and culture piece, which is where I typically would've sat. So that would include learning development where I was, but also people who were VPs of people in culture, directors of communications, takeover engagement, et cetera. So in that year, the dominoes began to fall. So I, as the director, our VP, all of a sudden, was no longer there after a very long time and it collapsed that role. They did not replace that role immediately on the executive team when they kind of centralized that into the US office. So then it was the head of communications and so I'm starting to see the writing on the wall where this is gonna go. And not only that, I'm trying to navigate some myself, how do I get through that, but also my team, who are seeing that, oh, so these dominoes are falling. Are you stressed? Are you great? What about my job? And so when I think back to that time, that one worked out a little bit better, but if there was kind of three things that I think I would replicate, and this one, I'm sure you've already heard of before, but is this notion of a gratitude journal or saying it or writing it. And so nothing that is earth-shattering, but when someone said that to me, I knew it made sense until I started doing it. And the data does support it, right? I mean, when you look at stats and evidence on that, the act of actually writing something like that down does kind of boost the serotonin. You relive it. It affects your mood and happiness. So for me, from a practicality standpoint, as I'm going through that, in the morning, I'd either write down the three things I'm grateful for or say them, and at night, try to do the same. And was I 100% all the time? Absolutely not. In fact, even now through the pandemic, I could probably do a better job of even picking up that tool again, but such is the human experience. So when I did that, I definitely felt a bit more centered and okay with myself in order to help me show up better at work. Number two, is that the fear piece, and I believe you had a guest on recently, Jennifer Thornton talked about the fear piece, doesn't necessarily relate to the reality. So again, we give ourselves this narrative. So at that time, for me, it's, oh, my goodness, gonna lose my job. What am I gonna do next? And on down the rabbit hole we go. But it doesn't actually translate. Most of the things we tend to invent and imagine don't actually come true. And so we can chew up a lot of energy and time doing that. So I think the first thing for me was journaling, gratitude. Second thing was recognizing fear is just a natural human response. Doesn't necessarily mean it's reality. And the third thing is what's the opportunity in what you're going through? And for me, coming out of that was I've always wanted to start my own company. And so that, as I look back, was, I was treated very fairly on the way out, and so that allowed me to step out and start to build a business, which, if I look in the mirror, is what I always really wanted to do the entire time that I was in corporate.
That's definitely a huge opportunity. And congratulations on doing it, by the way.
Oh, thank you.
That's incredible. And I love that you brought up a gratitude journal. It's really funny. I was actually recording a training this weekend, and I mentioned specifically the practice of expressing gratitude and that, to what you're saying, it's not actually about it being perfect. It's not really about having to do it every day and checking a box, and if you miss a day, it's the end of the world, and everything. It's the process of doing it and incorporating it and doing the best that you can inside of those things that makes it effective.
Yeah.
Because it then, it's like it rewires. I mean, I hate the term rewires, but bear with me. It's rewiring you to look for things that you're grateful for, to focus on the positive, to be optimistic. It kind of circles back into some of the things that we've already spoken about.
Absolutely. And not only that, there's impact then on, if you are leading a team, how that shows up to them. And so once you get past the, you and I shared that kind of the healthy skepticism, the eye-rolling on this type of stuff, once you get to the practicality part, there's impact. So my example being is that, around that time, and every time since, I've had a team, in the last example I gave you, I have a gratitude moment at the beginning of every meeting.
Yeah.
And it's one thing. Rarely, I've never been in a meeting ever where someone said I've got nothing to be grateful for.
Of course.
And even doing that now in one of our programs that we're running for new leaders, there's usually, it's not a belabored thing. It's 30 seconds around the room. What are you grateful for right now? And it's just to kinda prime us and put us in a better head space. And so me doing that on my own with a journal, it translated into a little moment into those meetings. And then in that corporate example, we began to rotate some of those things. So people wanted to kinda talk a bit more about that at the beginning, and we built it out into a kind of a standard meeting component. So I think it's something that can sound sometimes pie in the sky, but once you put it into practical use, there really is an impact for others.
So I think that the... I think it's really interesting because I think the practical applications of all of these things is often where people get hung up and they get, they feel like it either can feel like so much or that what happens if I don't do it perfectly all the time? So I have a client that I work with. And at the top of every meeting, they do culture wins for the week, right? Like what's worked really well? What has been the wins in the culture on their team? And it's really similar to gratitude 'cause you're focusing on something positive and wonderful that's come out of it. And it's such an easy thing to do. And I think that's really important. Remember, it doesn't have to be hard.
No, it doesn't. And it costs nothing. It's one of these... That really sings to me, and the reason I say that is in the work that I do with that first time new manager, new leader, it's all about the fundamentals. So it's not about the latest strategy that they're using at Apple or wherever, all the great stories that are out there. It's really the fundamentals. And some of those things that we talk about don't cost a lot, whether time or money, that can really help you kinda lay the foundation to be a great first-time leader.
So because you do so much work with first-time leaders, I'm curious, I'm curious for your perspective on what the maybe opportunities are for them or what they can do as they step into challenging times. Because I think that it's really... Listen, change is scary. Let's just, we're gonna call it. It's the unknown, right? We're afraid of the unknown. I have a much higher tolerance for change than a lot of people, and I know how I can feel inside of it. So if you don't have that high tolerance for change, it's like, I mean, it can be overwhelming. So I'm just gonna name that there's fear often with change. And especially when you're a new leader in a new role, there's an additional layer of fear of the unknown. So I'm curious from your perspective, doing all the work that you do with new leaders, what, I mean, what advice would you give them? What are you noticing about them? I'd really just, I'd love your insight.
Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to. So, and all the things you're saying are true. There's gonna be people on your team. So let's, as an example, now you're a first-time leader, you're six months into the job, major crisis is happening, so pandemic or whatever else is gonna come down the road. 'Cause most of us, all of us right now are in a crisis, but that's unusual for all of us to be going through that at the same time.
Right.
But generally speaking, most of us are either in a crisis, coming out of a crisis, or, unbeknownst to us, about to go into one. And so it's not as if these things never happen. So I think the first realization is like something is gonna hit the fan. Let's not be foolish enough to think it won't. But when I think about the practical application for a new leader, it does come back to the fundamentals. So this is almost things you can do in the moment, but also things you should be doing at the outset to set yourself up and get ready for these moments. So the first thing is be clear and transparent. And what I mean by that is be candid and be very open and clear on what you're saying. So as a new manager, let's say you're speaking to your own manager, so you're managing up, managing down, you've got your peers. You may say something to one person and mentally, in four days, you think, oh, yeah, I've already communicated that to the team. These are very simple things that we tend to push past. I've experienced that myself. I've heard it from clients. And then you get three weeks down the road, and someone says, what are you talking about? And you said, well, I told everybody that. And you say, no, well, you didn't. So there's a real... You need to be intentional and you need to be clear. So that's two things. Making a point of when you are communicating very clearly. You can't just send one email and then expect your whole team to know it, interpret it, fully understand it, fully buy in, and they're okay with change. It doesn't work that way, right?
I love that you said that. Just for the record, I love that you said that because I am always like, when you think you've communicated enough, you need to communicate three times more because you have not.
Great rule.
Right? Like you think it's enough,
Right, that's a great rule of thought.
It's not.
Perfectly said. Yeah. And doing it in different ways.
Yes.
So that could be email. That could be face-to-face. That could be voicemail or text, whatever it is. It can't just be the preferred method that you like as the leader, because if you do that, you quickly learn like, okay, great, so let's say you're someone that loves to talk on the phone and nobody in your team wants to talk on the phone, so now you gotta change things a bit. So I think the first thing there is be clear and transparent. The second thing I think new managers can do well to lead through change is to have the frequent check-ins. And so in the programs that I talk about, the fundamental aspect is building trust. And you build trust through weekly one-on-one time. And so based on my experience and my research interviewing new managers and building those programs, it's 30 minutes is enough to kinda get you where you need to go with that person. And as you're building that, that kinda has to be step one as a new manager. And I always advise that. If you're doing that and you're building that relationship capital over time, when you get to those headwinds, when it starts to get bumpy, that will be to your advantage because there will be some trust and relationship built there versus trying to panic and go through something. So an example there, I had a client tell me earlier in the year that, or into last year, when everything went remote at first, they didn't hear from their own manager for about 4 1/2 months. They were used to being in the office and seeing them all the time.
Wow.
Yeah, now this may be an extreme example, but it is, I'm sure, one that you people are probably not that shocked by. Yeah, so usually, everyday, cubicles, nine to five, see you all the time shift into remote right away. Still doing the same meeting, cadence, the same everything. And they never actually had a one-on-one communication with their manager other than flipping on company-wide email announcements. And you think about the impact that has on a human being, on their home life, all those things. So I say that to, if there's one thing that people can take away if you're a new manager today listening to this is that weekly one-on-one is such a crucial element for just fundamentally learning how to manage well. And that'll help serve you when you're in a crisis.
So you said something in there, and I don't wanna brush over because I think that it's very insightful for established managers as well, especially if they're moving into a new company or a new role, even if they have been a leader for years. And that is that idea of relationship capital. I think it becomes... I think it is really easy to discount the importance of relationship capital, especially if you've been a leader before, but in general.
Yeah.
And it is, depending on the organization, but in many organizations, it's one of the most important things that we can have in an organization is that relationship capital. And I wanna emphasize that because, yes, it's so important for new leaders to put that one-on-one time in to build that relationship capital. I think it is as important for established leaders to be maintaining that relationship capital and being mindful of whether you switch organizations or you move into a different team, for example, you have to intentionally reestablish that when you step into those spaces.
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Yeah, it's not just for someone that's brand-new. I focus on that group 'cause there really is, for me, and you look at stats on this, it's not a perfect number, but in around 80% of employees in mid to large organizations report into that frontline, first-time, sometimes, leaders. So that group, if we're not influencing helping that frontline management group get their fundamentals right, then there's no shock when things go offside. And we all know the stats on employee engagement, links to the manager and all that. So yeah, it's critically important, whether you're new or whether you're kind of moving into a new company, to keep those tight one-on-ones intact.
Yeah, and I think that it might look different if you've been in a company for a while how you maintain that relationship capital, but I think that it's, I love that you brought it up 'cause I'm like, it's so important for new leaders and it is important, maybe in a different way, but it is important for people who are established leaders to be mindful of as well because I think it's really easy to push that aside, be like, oh, I have relationships with those people. I don't need to continue doing the one-on-ones. Oh, I already know the team I'm stepping into. I don't need. Oh, my new leader... It's really, it becomes that brush aside with a lack of intentionality. Whereas for the new leaders, it's about establishing relationship capital, very important, for established leaders, it's about maintaining relationship capital. Important in a different way.
Yeah, and there's risk if you don't do that in diminishing and losing that relationship capital. So you think about, let's just say as an example, I've experienced reporting into a VP who had one-on-ones frequently, rarely missed them. I always had the time. And I had a VP previous in my life where I kinda had to chase that person to get information. And I will say both were technically competent.
Yeah.
Both were very good at their job. But if you were to ask me, as the employee, who was I really connected with, who did I feel I had the best relationship, who would I go to bat for, who do I think would go to bat for me, the obvious one was the person that was spending the time showing up for me.
Yup. Yeah, it's that old adage that technical competence, whatever that looks like, it's important and you need to be able to do your job, but the people that we almost always think of as the best leaders we've had, it's all relational. It's all emotional intelligence. It's all those soft skills that we can tend to do what I just did on purpose, which is air quote them like they don't matter as much, but they're the memorable pieces.
Yeah, and I think we're starting to see a bit of a shift from that 'cause I mean the way you phrase that, that's the way we've been phrasing that, myself included, for the last 10, 15, 20 years and beyond. Now we're starting to see a shift as we move into this kind of fourth industrial revolution and how we're all going to be working. These are the skills that we'll no longer be air quoting as soft, so.
Yeah.
So when I think back to your question around these new managers, how could they lead through crisis, we talked about being clear and transparent, we talked about the importance of building trust and using the one-on-one to do that. And there's a couple of more I'd like to share.
Yeah, please.
Number three being we have to be comfortable sitting in the discomfort with our team. And so as managers, we often like to quickly move and solve and we need a solution. And that's what you sometimes get paid to do. But other times, you get paid to sit and wallow in the uncomfortable, messy, crappy part of leading a team, which is when people come in to you and are crying or am I gonna lose my job? And you can't solve their problem. That's not the job. The job then becomes like having that open conversation. And that's sometimes meaning saying, you can't say you're gonna have a job. You can say, I don't know. I don't know, but what I can say to you is that I will promise to be clear and transparent as we go through this. I'm navigating it as well. That's a different answer than, Celine, don't worry about it. It's gonna be fine. Just keep your nose down. Keep working hard, doing great.
Yeah.
And then next week, there's let the hammer drops. And so I think sometimes when we're, especially when we're new, we feel like this need to we have to solve everybody's problem, and that's what we get paid to do. At certain extent, yes, that may be true. But overall, now your role is performance through others. You're coaching more. You're enabling people. And part of that, particularly in a crisis, is being okay with that discomfort. It just, it sucks, but it's part of the job.
Yeah. I love that. I think it's really... I always say that I'm more committed to my own growth than I am to my own comfort for that exact reason. You have to be okay with things being uncomfortable and with things being uncertain. You have to be okay with it if you want to really connect with people and build those relationships.
Mm, great. And when you said this notion of perfect or trying to kinda focus on yourself, I recently interviewed someone by the name of Rebecca Zucker, who's a partner in a leadership firm called Next Step Partners. And she had written an HBR article around that, leading through uncertainty. It's a great article. I think, hopefully, we can link to that in the show notes.
For sure.
And part of that in her recommendation was in, especially with the managers, people who are moving into those roles, there are a lot of people that may be type A or are fully in control, and they want things to be perfect, and they can't. And especially when you're going through a crisis, there's no linear checklist for that. It's going to be the roller coaster. And so the sooner we can step back and go, I can't do everything perfectly, 70% is okay, and sometimes, it's hard if we're in that category ourselves to be okay with that, but you need to. You can't have 100% effort in every single thing when you're going through these moments 'cause we know where that all leads, and that's usually burnout, and you get sick, and that's how you learn the hard way. So I think if there's a fourth one in that list, it's resist the urge to be perfect, to have perfect responses, to be perfectly phrased.
Yeah.
The big thing is be transparent, be clear, spend the time on the one-on-ones, and know that you just can't solve everything.
Yes, I mean, I could not have said that better. I think that it's... I always say it's progress, not perfection. And it's really hard when you're in a crisis, when you're dealing with something uncertain, when you're dealing with change, when it's challenging anything, to not want the perfection over the progress because you just want the answer.
It's satisfying. We all know how satisfying that is. And I once had someone on my team that I had to coach them a lot on that because they were such a top performer, but as they were taking on more projects, it just became more and more impossible, and they had a hard time letting go of. And the most painful thing I could say to her at that time was, "70% is okay."
Yeah.
And she would just cringe at the very thought of that. And I said, "Well, if you don't... You can keep going, trying to get all these things done, but it's gonna start to pile up, and you're gonna start to stress." And that was kind of our coaching thing for that year. But it took a while because her whole life, her whole home life, her family life as a child, was excellence in school, excellence in everything, athletics. And so it was hard to realize, whoa, maybe now isn't the time to be the valedictorian, so to speak.
Yeah. No, I mean, I love that. I think it's so important for people to remember. So thank you for sharing that story. Before we wrap this up, I'm gonna ask this question. The answer can be no. There's no pressure. Is there anything that we didn't get to or that you want to mention before we wrap it up or to emphasize before we wrap it up?
Mm. That's a great question. I think there are probably two things. The first one comes back to the importance of spending the time to build that relationship capital. If there's one thing that you do, find a way to start introducing that. And there are lots out there that you can research in how to do that. Feel free to connect with me and I'm happy to share. The second thing, I think, when we go through the crisis is just taking a step back and just know that longer-term, it will be okay. It's really easy to get wrapped up in, especially the last 15 months that we've all been going through this. Everybody listening has a story. It's just important to know it will be okay. It may not be happening right now, but it will be.
I think that's the perfect place. Thank you for that. I think it's a perfect place to wrap it up. For anyone who wants to connect with you, Ian, where can they find you online? What's the best way to reach you?
The best way to reach me? I'd say, I mean, LinkedIn is probably pretty easy. I-A-N is my first name. Daley, D-A-L-E-Y, is my last name. But if you wanna hit directly, you can email me. So that's Ian, I-A-N, @daley.company, D-A-L-E-Y, .company.
Perfect. And we'll have all that in the show notes for anyone who wants to reach out to you, and I encourage you to do so. Ian is wonderful. And check out his podcast as well 'cause it's another good one.
I've had some fantastic guests on the show, like yourself. We should do another one.
We definitely should. It's always a pleasure talking to you.
Likewise.
And thank you for taking the time to come on the podcast and to chat with me. Really helpful. Really insightful. I appreciate you very much and I appreciate your time.
Oh, my pleasure. And I wish everybody else out there today a wonderful, wonderful week.
Absolutely. Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.