This week, we are talking to coach and consultant Gen Retzlaff about balanced leadership, the notion and reality of “masculine” and “feminine” traits, the problem with binaries, and what to do about power (whether we are currently in a position of wielding it or not).
In this week’s episode, we’re talking to coach, consultant, and founder of Grow Better Together, Gen Retzlaff about the need for more balanced leadership in the world – and how the traits often missing are those perceived as more feminine.
This is, in some ways, a conversation about binaries and the spectrum that exists between two extremes, but it’s also about being more aware of what you don’t have or aren’t operating in that could make you a better leader (or your team a better team, your organization a better organization, etc.).
Finally, it’s about what folks can do to explore how they can step more fully into leadership if they’ve been shying away from it and what those currently in power can do to help cultivate diversity and be more collaborative.
It would be wonderful if some of these more slow-burn issues and crises would solve themselves. But, since they won’t, it’s on us to take action and be part of the solution.
I hope you’ll listen and that this conversation ignites or inspires something in you.
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Geneviève Retzlaff, or Gen as she's widely known, stands as the driving force behind Grow Better Together. With a mission centered on organizational transformation and the reduction of employee turnover, Gen leverages her 15 years of HR experience and holds certification as a transformational and team performance coach (PCC & CTPC).
Gen's sole passion is to introduce people to the profound impact of coaching, helping them enhance their influence on the world. She's particularly drawn to empowering women to overcome the prevalent underrepresentation in corporate boardrooms and the imposter syndrome struggles they face.
Having witnessed these challenges firsthand, Gen excels at identifying and eliminating limiting beliefs. She specializes in guiding women to step into leadership roles, serving as inspiring role models for emerging professionals. At Grow Better Together, Gen is at the forefront of creating organizational change while addressing the issue of employee turnover, fostering a future where women in leadership roles are more commonplace.
To learn more about Gen and her work, visit grow-better-together.com, connect with her on Pick My Brain (https://www.pickmybrain.world/profiles/genevieve-retzlaff), or LinkedIn.
- I am Céline Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Gen Retzlaff, a transformational coach supporting leaders on their journey towards authentic leadership, welcome, Gen.
- Hi, welcome, well, thank you.
- Absolutely, I'm very excited to talk to you today. I know from our pre-call that we're gonna get into some really interesting things, but before we do that, per usual, I always ask the question, the name of the podcast is "Leading Through Crisis," when you hear that, what comes up for you? Or what does that mean to you?
- I had to think about that for a little while because the word crisis is such a hard word, right? Like it feels like something needs your attention right now. But at the same time, like it feels like the work I do with organizations and leadership and all that, it feels like right now we're in this crisis, but it doesn't feel like there's an this urgency, right? And the crisis I'm talking about is mainly about how people are feeling unfulfilled and leaving their jobs at like a rate that has never been seen before. And to me, that's kind of a crisis, like the, you know, the whole topic of talent retention and people wanting more out of their professional lives than ever before. And yeah, that to me feels like a crisis, but kind of a subtle one, not one that you're like, oh my God, let's drop everything and take care of that right now. But maybe it should be treated like that, but yeah, that's not how it's lived at least, you know? So yeah, for me it's kind of bit of a crisis moment.
- I think that, you know, what pops into mind as you say that there's two things. So the first one is, I think those crises that are less explosive or one time things where it's like this, you know, I mean, like, if you think of a bomb exploding, like here's this huge thing that happens and then there's all the impacts, but you can pinpoint the start and that, you know, things happen after that, but that's a crisis. I think those are really easy to identify quite often, and we can pinpoint and go that. But I think what you're talking about what comes up to me and what the example you gave is like that slow burn of things changing that result in a crisis, we often struggle to name a crisis in the same way. Does that make sense the way I've said that?
- Totally, yes, yes. That's exactly what comes to mind, yeah.
- And the other thing, and it actually is more of a question, is you mentioned that, you know, that people, I'm gonna get the language wrong, but essentially the people are expecting more out of work, or they're looking for more from, more fulfillment, whatever it is, right? The question I have is, do you actually think that they're expecting more or they're looking for more, or just they're not as willing to settle for what people were settling for before?
- I think it's both, I think it's both. I mean, you know, tying this into authenticity, there's a lot of, you know, soul searching, a lot more than was ever before, 'cause before the expectations were like, you start work, you work for 25, 30 years, you're off work, you get to your retirement and that's it, right? Whereas now, people, I mean, the way I say it is more they don't wanna wear a second skin at work. They wanna feel like they can bring their whole selves into their organizations and they will find a sense of belonging, which is the piece that ties into talent retention, I think. But there's definitely also this other piece of like, and some people don't even know what fulfillment means to them, but they just have that unsettling feeling of like, "I don't feel good." They can't really say why, so there's that. But so it's true that they won't settle until they feel settled, right? So they'll always be looking for more. So there's kind of twofolds to that, I think.
- Yeah, I appreciate that. I think that's very reasonable. I'm curious when you talk about, so something that I, I'll give context as I ask this. So something that comes up a lot and that I've talked about with, you know, leaders that I've worked with, organizations I've worked with, it comes up in conversation a lot with anyone who works in an organization. Is that idea of bringing your whole self to work, right, like, what does that look like? Is that realistic? There are people on both sides of the coin for this. There are people who believe firmly that bringing, and I think some of it's generational, but bringing your full self to work and showing up wholly and completely, that is the key to belonging, to healthy cultures, to whatever. And there are people who are like, "It needs to be better than it is now," right? It doesn't, the mask that people wear where they're an entirely different person at work historically, where it's like there's this wall between home and work or real and work that needs to dissolve, but bringing your whole person to work, that idea is not beneficial to everybody. That's also not realistic. I've heard arguments on the spectrum when it comes to this. So I'm curious for you, what is your lens on it? What do you see the opportunity as? What do you, what is the kind of best case scenario look like, and why do you think that's the best case scenario?
- You know, I think I would really break it down and breaking it down, I think is the solution. Because whatever works for a team is not gonna work for another team. Because every team is unique and every team, what you want to do is to, you know, have the team being more either productive or be more collaborative. Whatever your objective is, in terms of when you talk about, I wanna change in my team, there's a problem, right, something to be fixed. So looking at that team, how is that team going to feel like they belong or they feel engaged? And maybe the answer for that specific team is different than from another perspective, you know, another team that has a different, more the, you know, pragmatic approach that you just mentioned. You know, being more like, okay, there needs to be more so this only talking about individuals, but there's also need to get work done, right? And so more the productive kind of aspect. So I guess it depends, and probably depends on the industry. If you talk to a creative agency versus, you know, a financial agency, they don't have the same needs. And so it's really looking at, not only the individual, but more on a team basis. And also as overall organizational culture. What do you want as an organization and what do you allow for each team to be and feel like they, sorry, like they belong.
- Well, and it's interesting when you say that, 'cause what popped to, I think that's, I just wanna acknowledge, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I'm big on fit for purpose, right? There is no one size fits all. So when you say that, I'm like, "Yep, totally. I completely get it." And it makes me think when you're talking about different industries like financial or creative, were the two that kind of came, that were the examples is I wonder how much of the people that are often attracted to those industries or to that type of work, part of the attraction is that they feel like it fits who they are. There are people who are more formal in their approach in general. That's part that is who they are. So maybe that financial industry or legal industry or whatever is more of a draw to them from the get go because they feel like they can be themselves in that. Whereas that creative person is, would not be drawn to that or feel like it resonates with them in that same way.
- Right, and that really, that examples, I mean, I totally resonate with that and this example brings me back to when I started doing coaching. I started doing career coaching and really bringing people who were like, "Ugh, I don't feel fulfilled at work, but I don't know what's next." Some of these shifts were so interesting because they really spoke to a whole different perspective of personality that they were actually living in their work. And then that's where you start talking about limiting stories and limiting beliefs and what the family's expectations of their career would be versus their, you know, what they had in their heart as a, this is for me, "I wanna be an artist, but my parents want me to be a doctor." Like how do I, you know, feel that internal tension and it catches up with you, right? Like, so yeah, that brought me back to that example somehow. But yeah, I agree.
- It's fascinating how much of an impact and how little we think of that impact the world around us has on these decisions. Whether it's family, whether it's societal expectations, whether it's just the unspoken norms of whatever the world or industry or whatever is. It's really fascinating how much influence it has and just subconscious, we're not thinking about it intentionally 90% of the time.
- No, exactly, and I mean, we would live so differently, right? If it was conscious, it would be fantastic, then we would always make the right choices. But always, you know, we're humans, we're influenced our environment all the time. So yeah, it makes sense, but it's unfortunate, yeah.
- Like so many things, right? So I wanna, one of the things that I know that you are very passionate about is this idea of female leadership. And I wanna, so first of all, I'm gonna ask you to define what that is, right? When that, you know, what the language is, 'cause I guarantee there's people who are gonna interpret it differently or have a different way of thinking about it, so what that is, and then also why, what the draw is, like, why you're passionate about it, what is the thing?
- Yeah, oh, I think that's a great question. And I guess to define what it is about, I would probably start by saying what it's not about, 'cause it's really not about men versus women. And the way I mean it, it's, I guess I should call it more balanced leadership, right? Than female leadership. Because that, you know, can cause certain interpretation of what I'm trying to say by just saying, I, you know, I'm all for female leadership. It's also feels like female power and feminism and these are completely different concepts than what the way I implement these female leadership initiatives in companies. So yeah, to answer that first is it's not men versus women. It's really about having a balance of masculine leadership qualities and feminine leadership qualities and I guess that's really what I'm, how I would define it. Because there are some very typical, when I say like masculine or feminine leadership qualities, it's more as it comes more naturally to either men or women. It doesn't mean that, you know, assertiveness is more of a masculine trait. Does that mean that women cannot be assertive? Absolutely not, you know, so it's really about stereotyping these masculine and feminine more as a they come more naturally. So empathy is known to be more natural to women than men. And so, you know, not increasing, but being more aware of what is it that you don't have that could make you more of a balanced leader and versus what you also have and leveraging on that. And so sometimes, I don't know what your experiences, but with women, sorry, we can typically see over nurturing, over caring, over giving, you know, all of these things are also not healthy. They could also learn from masculine leadership qualities and say, well, being more courageous, being more bold and being more structured and analytical. And so, you know, this is what, a little bit more what I mean, it's just, you know, kind of meeting in the middle. And with all of these, you get the good of all the both sides, you know, and this is what kind of sets you up for success. So, you know, maybe I would, yeah, I guess balanced is a better word than female leadership in that sense, you know.
- I have a question for you, but I wanna acknowledge something because I, you know, I know there's a number of different types of leaders that listen to this. And I'm gonna share this perspective. You don't have to agree with it. When I think a lot of the traits that we think of as feminine leadership or masculine, as feminine or masculine period, I don't think actually think they're natural. And I would say there's a lot of research that shows they're not natural to one gender or other in that way, it's socialized. Girls are socialized to be more empathetic, to play in certain ways to, you know, chat and, you know, whatever boys are socialized to be more physically expressive with how they play to, you know, the dominance thing as little boys, they whatever. I think a lot, so much of that is socialized and then it just gets reinforced and reinforced and reinforced. And I say that out loud because I think there are, I have known some men and some women and some non-binary people who are, would not be what you expect in any of this. And I just always think it's important to acknowledge that so much of this depends on how we're socialized.
- Yes, that is so right. Thank you for bringing that up, because it's true when I use the word natural, it's, yeah, there is a part of that, right? Like mothers, like from the prehistorical and even like in the animal world, like they're made to be more nurturing, right? Like the motherhood and all of that. We discussed that previously.
- We did, yep.
- But yeah, so I guess there are some portion of it, but it's true, I don't know if you had the chance to read the "Lean In" book from Sandy Sandberg, that's her name, is it, anyway?
- Cheryl Sandberg.
- Yes, thank you. That it really explains like all of this piece that has been socialized, and I guess, you know, it's part of the way we grow up makes us behave in certain ways. We just said it, right? Like everything you are is based on the how the environment around you. And so that again, makes sense, bit unfortunate in some ways, but yeah, so it's now like how do you break that pattern, right? That's the question you need to ask yourself. And do you even want to, you know, is this something that you wish for yourself? But my point in talking about, you know, female leadership it is good for the world and for businesses, like there is really a profitability benefit in having women in leadership roles. And so how do we bring that without either offencing anyone or, you know, bringing their confidence into women to just, you know, you don't need to behave like a man, because that has been defined as success in the 200 last years. Now this, kind of, this transition. But it's like, yeah, bringing people to, you know, do that. And also some men, they wanna be part of the solution, but then like, "I don't know, I don't even understand either the problem or the solution and how can I be part of that?" This it kind of like, "That's not my thing," so yeah. Sorry, I'm going into tangent.
- No, it's very related. And I think there are, my experience with many organizations, teams that I've worked with is that there are more men, and I'm not saying this is the truth, my experience is, there are more men who do wanna be part of the solution than those who don't. And I am well aware there are people out there, men, women, otherwise, however, folks identify who think that if someone else has access or is a leader or gets promoted or whatever the case may be, that means there's less for them. That's not what I, right. There are people who are going to feel that way and think that way, regardless. I'm not talking about those people, my experience is that more of the people who are, especially in senior levels of leadership, they do want to be part of the solution. They do want to shift things. They do want more, you know, not middle-aged white men in leadership roles generally, and they don't know what to do. And a lot of times they don't consciously recognize how many of the things that they reward as leadership behavior are those very, you know, privileged white male behaviors that they've been rewarded for having their whole life that women, people of color, queer people, non-binary, they don't, they have not been rewarded for the same behavior, so they don't tend to do it.
- Right, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's also my experience. And I think, you know, that's why I mentioned at the beginning, it's really not men versus women because, you know, it's kind of getting old, you know, this whole saying that, you know, men don't want female women to be empowered. That's not true, that's also not my experience. And there's a lot of progress, at least in the awareness now it's about, okay, now we know, and now what can we do? Take actions and just be part of the solution, like in an active way, rather than just be passive until the problem of gender equality solves itself or, you know, be part of it, yeah.
- If only it would just solve itself. Like that's the, it's just look at that. Wouldn't that be nice? So from your experience, from your expertise, what are some of the things that, what are some of the actions that people can take to solve this? To start to resolve this, to think about differently, to have, like whatever, like what are some of the things that you've seen work or that you suggest/advise people when it comes to this?
- Well, to be fair, I have worked mainly with women to really work on their inner confidence, because I say like the world needs more women leaders but they feel like they're shying away from it because they don't want that responsibility out of sometimes lack of confidence, lack of ability to be visible, and they're missing out on promotions, and you know, like all of these things I've been working with women on to just focus on your, you know, we talked about limiting stories, your limiting beliefs, like what's getting in your way, why do you see yourself small when you're at the table? Executive table, for example, like, do you actually have a voice? Even if you are there, you made it there. Like, what kind of power does your voice have? This is the work that I've done and working more, that's why I integrate always the authenticity part, right? Because women, as I said, they don't wanna transform into men and they don't wanna be something they're not, but they also want to grow in their career. So what does that mean? And so there's sometimes, I mean, not sometimes like I would say 95% of the time there's this internal tension between what I want, what I think that entails and what's, you know, what am I, you know, willing to, where do I fit in all that, right? And this other part where I was thinking, it's funny you said that, 'cause I was thinking, I was brainstorming with the team the other day about having a program, female leadership for men, just because for those men who want to be part of the solution, but they, like, they don't know what to do. So I would say, you know, this, it's not a program that exists now and that I've actively worked on, but it's also integrating that authenticity piece in that way as well. And for me, it's more working around values and putting like an action plan to become better leaders, but also how to deal with diversity and how to deal with, you know, finding a solution. And, you know, the coaching process that I'm sure that you, you probably work with your clients is really helping individuals to find their own solutions. So if you come up in a coaching session and say, "I wanna be part of the solution, I don't know what to do," but it's like understanding that this particular client is resourceful enough to find its own solution to solving that specific problem that he has. So, you know, kind of peeling of the onion a little bit and say what works for you? How can you be more inclusive? What is it that you don't see? And, you know, opening up the communication channel and being transparent about your intention. "Look, I wanna help you tell me how I can help" or, you know, opening up the dialogue. But, you know, my experience is that sometimes the status or ego, or called it whatever, can get in the way of you, you know, being vulnerable, that opens up a whole different topic about the power of vulnerability. But yeah, it's already, blooloo, I'm rambling.
- No, no, but it's, I think it's a, it does, that would be another podcast episode for another day for sure. But it's, I think it's linked because in the kind of traditional structures of masculine versus feminine leadership if we're breaking it down into a binary vulnerability is not part of the masculine way that masculine leadership kind of framework structures that we understand, right? It's really more about confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness, outspokenness, you know, the gregariousness, it's really more that and not vulnerability, and so it is, I think it is worth mentioning because it's often not part of the structures or framework or interrelational, interpersonal relationships at leadership tables.
- Yeah, that's right, that's right. And it's, yeah, that needs to come from modeling, right? If you want your leaders to be open to vulnerability or to just be part of, let's say an example to be part of that solution, you say, I want my executive team to be more diverse, have that as your company goals and really coming from an, you know, overarching organizational objective and then breaking it down and making your leadership team and your senior leadership team accountable for achieving that. And so that becomes probably more enticing. Sorry, that could be another piece of solution, you know, to make it more.
- Yeah, absolutely. So I'm curious, so, you know, before we wrap this up, I'm curious if there's, if you could give advice to, whether it's men, women, non-binary, however people identify, one, many, all, doesn't make a difference, you can obviously choose, you could just say this is for female, for women in leadership, but if you could give advice based on your experience, based on the work you do, based on what you're seeing to any people in general in leadership, whatever version, what would it be right now? Like what do you think is the most important thing?
- I think it comes probably in twofold, you know? Like for women leaders or any leaders really who's struggling with the heaviness, I would say, of the responsibility of being a leader. And that costs them a lot of like inner work that they're not doing or not willing to do. It's like, do it because really the world needs more of you. And so find some support, find some support to help you get rid of all this baggage that prevents showing up as yourself because you know, the world needs you right now to be able to have that ability to just show up as yourself. And for men, it's like, just have the openness, I guess, or just be transparent about your intention to make this a more diverse place to work or in your team. Or just say, "Look, I don't," you know, just opening up a little bit, the conversation that opening the door for men in a power position to somebody who's looking up to them is probably a better first step than the, you know, it takes less for them to do that than for coming from a non-confident place to be able to open the door. So just if you know, these two parties, I would say, can work together to, you know, be more collaborative on making that an objective, that would be wonderful, and I guess, you know, everybody can benefit from that.
- I love that, I think that's a really powerful place to, I think it's a great way to sum this up and a really powerful place to end our time together. Thank you for being a guest on the show, Gen, it's been, I really appreciate your insights and your thoughtfulness. And we'll put a link to where you can connect with Gen on LinkedIn and her website, which is grow-better-together.com, and that'll all be in the show notes for those who are listening and can't write it all down. But thank you very much, Gen, it's been lovely chatting with you, I appreciate it.
- Thank you for having me.
- My pleasure. Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.