Thank you so much for having me Celine. I'm excited about our conversation.
Me too, we... So the listeners and viewers know that we always do, I always do like a little pre-conversation before and I often start these with people where I'm like I'm so excited to get into this. 'Cause we had just such an interesting conversation before we even hit record. So you are definitely in the camp of I'm very excited about this.
Awesome, I'm excited let's do it.
So I always start with the exact same question and it's the big and broad one which is when you hear the term Leading Through Crisis what comes to mind for you or what resonates or doesn't about that concept for you?
Yeah, so Leading Through Crisis it is such a such a big concept to take in for me when I think about Leading Through Crisis it's about staying grounded and focused and moving forward knowing how to do that, regardless of what's going on around me and being able to call upon tools and processes and support systems that will enable me to do that.
So there's two things inside of that, that I love and that I wanna emphasize and that is you don't have to do it alone. So you're calling on support when you need it. And it's that idea of moving forward, not jumping to the end and solving it, not staying stuck in place but moving forward can be incremental movement forward.
Absolutely, and I think that the... Both of those things were things I had to learn. For me, a lot of times I would just go it alone and it wasn't until I've had moments in my life where I absolutely like life presented me with the experiences where I absolutely couldn't go it alone that I recognized the value in asking for help and allowing support into my life for me to be able to move forward. And when I talk about moving forward it was also the recognition of I don't need to jump from A to Z. That's not, that's also, it's also setting you're setting yourself up for a lot more stress and challenge. So it is recognizing that steps forward no matter how small they are, are steps forward and they're in the right direction.
Well, and the thing that I would add to that is that 'cause I love that is that, the right direction is the right direction the moment it's that there's a right and wrong direction be all definitive black and white situations that these are the right steps to be taking now for me in this moment. And that's, that even if you change it in the future even if you get better information in this moment I'm making the best decision and moving the best way I know how and that in and of itself builds momentum.
Absolutely, and I love that you expanded on that because for me, it's also about alignment. So what's right for me is gonna be different for you and different for the next person. So being able to call upon whether it's inner guidance or research or whatever it might be, and choosing that step and knowing what right is defining what right is in that moment and also taking the opportunity to pivot from that and have flexibility on that. And sometimes the step is one beside you as opposed to directly in front of you. It might be lateral instead. So it's having that flexibility to know the difference.
Yeah, and it's really interesting. 'Cause I think in, I mean call it crisis call it challenging times, call it change, call it whatever in those moments where things feel unstable. I think we are not we naturally as humans, we want certainty. And so we are trying to find the one definitive, right end game answer. And then leaders are often, you know problem solving folks who are like, let... If I don't have the answer, I'm not gonna say anything. And you end up in this place where no one you're either not taking steps or people are taking steps in 18 different directions because they no one knows what's really happening and they don't have that guidance or that information or whatever. And it's just, it's such an important note to be... To, I mean to jump into the communication but to communicate what's going on and share where you're at and be okay with course correcting and moving laterally. And this is the opposite of working in this isolated don't talk about anything kind of mindset.
Absolutely, the other thing I really love about what you said just now is recognizing that when we're dealing with the unknown as human beings, we're wired to want certainty. Like we wanna know what's coming. And the challenge for the leader is to recognize their humanity in that moment as well. So yes, I have to have an answer and I have to be able to move people and provide them with guidance. But then I also need to self-manage and recognize where I'm at and be able to hold space for my own uncertainty and then hold space for the people that I'm leading as well. And it's such an important thing that I think a lot of leaders are hard on themselves for that because like you said, it's like we have to have the answer. We have to have the answer and we're not tending to what needs to be tended to and that's ourselves. So and when we're able to maybe take some steps or create some space for ourselves to figure out what it is we need to do and what the next step actually looks like in a way that's honoring our own process and creates the time for us to do that. Then we're able to lead much more effectively and create the sense of safety that everybody needs in a time of the unknown.
So I think what's really interesting inside of what you said is that I find that... I think there's a lot of leaders who until they're in that moment of crisis or challenge they're not even thinking about their own process and that is the wrong time to be. I'm gonna say wrong, I'm actually gonna say wrong and I very rarely talking right or wrong but I think that's the wrong time to be trying to figure out your process when you're in the middle of a crisis you're in the middle of dealing with change. And this to me is why this process of self inquiry and self-awareness is a process that you're doing when things are going well more so even than when they're not so that you know, what your process is so that, you know, what works for you when all the poop hits the fan, I can swear on them. It's my show. And all the shit hits a fan. But you know, in that moment that, okay here's what I need to be doing for me in this moment to get... To feel the best, get the best result to lead whatever the case may be rather than trying to figure out what it needs to look like in that moment.
Yes, yes. It's and it's not, and it's, sometimes we have these ideas that something like that is selfish or it's self-absorbed and it's not right, because for us to effectively lead we need to be able to be like that tree in the midst of the storm. So to be able to take care of yourself is a skill, first of all, because we think we always have to have it right. And we have to have it ready. And that's how we get through the process in a much more, I guess stable way when there's so much coming at us.
So when we're in those situations and I'm totally gonna you know, when you get into a little bit of tactical nitty gritty stuff a bit here but when we're in those challenging situations let's call them when we find ourselves in those places what are some of the things as leaders that I'm gonna ask this in two parts. What are some of the things that people tend to do that is not that may be as productive as they're hoping it could be in terms of communication or how they're approaching things and then what are opportunities for them to step into that more effectively?
Yeah, so a lot of times people just think they have to make a statement or communicate right away and they're doing it without an actual strategy or substance that recognizes where they really wanna go with the path forward. And so when we do that, we actually create more confusion and more uncertainty which only snowballs and gets worse. So honestly it is taking a pause like taking a pause to really be considerate and thoughtful about how we wanna communicate but also knowing what we're communicating about. Like are we doing it reactively just because there's something going on and we have to say something or are we being thoughtful about how we're gonna manage and lead through it. And that's the difference. When we're thinking leadership, when we're really leading we're taking that moment to pause and be clear because we know that what we do is going to impact other people and we're mindful of whatever those impacts are. And we take that time to get really clear for ourselves how we want to move that forward.
Yeah, it's that intentionality, right?
Yeah.
It's that intentionality in all the cases because here's the thing is there is a way to be reactive to situations it's also intentional and thoughtful and might take less time, but, oh, sorry there's a way to be responsive to situations, not reactive.
I was thinking that actually.
I'm gonna course correct to the bill but like really where you can still in a very quick way and in a very responsive way deal with the situation intentionally the challenge is when we are reactive without thought at all, where we just fly off the handle, whatever that saying is that I'm getting wrong, but it's just there's no thought in it. That's the thing to avoid, even in, last year was a great example with all the Black Lives Matter protests that were happening and the movement that was going on in the States. There were people who reacted and companies and leaders without any thought. And there were people who were responsive very quickly but you could see the difference in the intentionality. You saw this happen with brands all over the place where some were reactive and called out really quickly and some were responsive and they were you know, put on a pedestal. I'm not saying in a bad way because of how they, they responded.
Yes, yeah. I love that you brought that example up because that's where you clearly saw the difference between those who were doing it because it was the thing to do versus the brands that actually knew who they were like they know who they are at their core. And because they've done, you could tell that they've done their work in terms of knowing how to take that stand. And so when they came out with their statements it was much like you could feel that there was meaning in it versus the ones that were performative and recognizing that. And this is a great example of how that reaction for the sake of having a reaction because everybody else is doing it can create harm right?
Yeah.
And it's creating harm for the Black Lives Matter Movement, but it's also creating harm for yourself as a brand and your perceived leadership. Whereas the other folks who took that time to really to put that thought into it and have thought about it beforehand they were the ones that were emerging as true leaders in that process.
Yeah, yeah, it was very interesting to watch that happen and to see how, like there were brands who responded, who I don't know how public, their stance on these things were ahead of time, but it didn't matter because the way in which they responded was obviously thoughtful and intentional. And whether, I mean, I'm gonna pick on Ben and Jerry's for a second, 'cause they had a big response. But like, I don't know that I knew I had any real idea what Ben and Jerry's philosophy was or approach was to inclusivity at all. I don't... it's not something I'd ever thought of. I don't think I'd ever heard or seen anything of it but it was clearly something in their DNA that whether or not it was laid out as this is how we do things. It was embedded in how they do things enough that when they responded, it was very, really well received and very appropriate, very thoughtful. And they got a lot of kudos appropriately so for that, and I think that's, what's really interesting is that it's not that you have to have publicized this doctrine on whatever you're talking. I mean, this is one example, but put it in any other context, it's not about everyone needs to know where you stand on everything ahead of time. It's that if you are clear on it and you are clear on what matters to you then you can respond from that place and people can tell.
Absolutely, and not only were they very clear then they followed up with it.
Yup.
Right. They have continued to demonstrate their investment in the movement and in creating a safe and inclusive world. Right?
Yeah.
So, that's, the other thing is the integrity of what's being said. And you can tell the difference when there're people continuing to walk that path and sharing that journey and their actions are in alignment with their words.
I love that you brought up integrity. I just gonna, I wanna talk about this for a minute because I don't... I think we often talk about integrity in such a theoretical way or in such a way that is disconnected from real examples or real moments especially with communications, with any sort of communication or communications in an organization. But I think it's really important because I think people are smarter than we give them credit for when it comes to being able to tell if something is done with integrity or not. And what that difference looks like. So I'm curious for you because you are in the world of communication and there theoretically not always in practice integrity is a big piece of what makes effective communication. What do you like... What does it mean to you? How does it show up? What do you see working not working? If you're like, never do this, do like I'd love just explore this concept a little bit with you. I know it's a big one. I like big ideas I'm sorry.
It's just real.
Yeah, that's okay. So this is something I talk a lot with my clients about. And so when I coach communication, it really is an holistic approach to communication. A lot of our society puts the emphasis on words and addressing of communication so it's the, your statements and your presentation and the aesthetics of it all. But what we need to remember that when we're communicating we're human beings and as human beings, we also have this biological mechanism that is able to tell when somebody's being authentic or not. And so I take it back to like caveman days. You needed to know when there was some danger there that you needed to react, so you would survive. Come 2021, we're doing it differently now, in terms of, if we're doing this in interacting with people and trying to figure out if somebody is or a brand is one that is one I could trust and feel safe around and want to invest in, you can tell, we can tell when biologically whether the communication and the stuff that's coming out of someone's mouth is authentic or not. Even if their words might be saying one thing but you can tell in a presentation or in the presence of someone whether what they're saying is the real deal or if there's something off and we need to know that. Because we need to be able to protect ourselves. And so this is something that I'll share with organizations or with individuals that I'm working with. So let's dig into what you're saying and where you really stand on that. Because if there's misalignment there people are gonna figure it out and then you have reputational risk.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, we do some deep diving on those pieces just to see where people are in unison with those things, and also being mindful. Okay, so if this is what you wanna say then what steps are you going to actually take to be in alignment with that? Because at the end of the day, we want you to be successful. And we also wanna make sure that we're not causing harm.
So I wanna talk about that idea of, I love this idea of that you brought up right at the end of this. Making sure we're not causing harm because I think this idea of we talk about, and I don't mean this to sound dismissive because it's important, but we hear a lot about especially as leaders, psychological safety, inclusivity, equity, all of that, which is super important. That's why I was like, I wanna make sure as I'm saying this, it's not dismissive and we don't talk as much about the importance of not doing harm in relation to that. If this... So we talk about these things but then on an individual or different way we're not as clear as like, how do we not do any harm? Like, how do we... That's a great idea up here, but then like what does that really mean in terms of me not doing any harm? So can you tell me a little bit about what that looks like in whether it's the work that you do or an individual is, wants to be mindful of is like what is that, how do we not do harm Fazeena? How do we not do harm?
I actually just launched a program called Do No Harm.
Look at that.
So, yes, it's all about a framework for safe and inclusive leadership. And what it's about is doing the individual work. Because, like you said when we're talking about not doing harm and DEI and unconscious bias and all of that, it just it could sound like, okay, how do we get there? And it's sort of this big overarching thing that can get overwhelming and people can freak out and not fully understand it. And so it's like, how do we just get it done and check it off the list.
Right.
That is what creates harm. That's what creates harm. It's the inner work. It's everyone taking individual responsibility for doing that. So as leaders, it is taking that time and investing in exploring what are the biases that I hold? What are the filters through which I see the world? What are the filters through which I am making decisions in the organization when it comes to HR, when it comes to communication, when it comes to creating products and services and marketing. We have to recognize that it's through our filters, that we're creating and putting out into the world. So if we have unchecked biases and unchecked programming that continues to marginalize folks of marginalized identity and keep them out of spaces, then we're not the doing the work. We're not gonna get where we wanna get. And then we're just having these conversations without actual substance and results happening.
One of the things that I find that I'm really curious about is that there's a lot of training on unconscious bias. There's a lot of training that's happening right now in the space. Again, very important. I do not wanna take away from the fact that this stuff matters. And we also know that it doesn't actually change behavior. That it's great for a lot of people to get a training to go, "Oh, I have a bias in this way, cool." And then they don't do anything with it. So I wanna, like to... I know we're almost at the end of time but I just wanna ask this question, how for someone who has taken that training or who is 'cause I know this is part of your training. It sounds like as well, but like how do they move from great in theory in some way where they've learned this thing to now what can I do with it? 'Cause this to me is like a really key piece of communication and creating those safe spaces.
Yeah, absolutely. It is all about having practical steps that you work for your business on an alignment with your business and accountability. Because if we don't have either then yeah, they're just ideas in the sky and we're learning about them but we don't know how to implement them. So the implementation piece is really important and that implementation piece cannot happen without those practical steps. The ones that, you know, exactly like I know what my marketing needs to look like or sound like I know what my HR policies need to be revised to be. I know what my products and services how they're being created with respect to making it feel like this is an inclusive product and service. And then having the accountability built in because unless we have those pieces in place then we're again, just doing it for performance and checking the box off.
Yeah, and I appreciate that. And because I think that it is important to do and it is all of this is important work. And putting in an action is really where the magic lies not just learning about it, it's great to learn about it, cool.
Yeah.
We've learned about it, great, yes.
And you know what, and it's also like the difference between a Ben and Jerry's versus other other brands. So if you're talking about an organization, it's that, it the investment is there from the top down. It's not just like, okay we've completed this training and we're good now. No, they're invested in it and they're taking those steps and they're staying accountable and they're making it public because they know that's a way of staying accountable.
Yeah, yup.
So it's taking a more wholesome approach at doing this and not just basing it on training and leaving that there.
Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Also this... I feel like this episode should be sponsored by unofficially sponsored by Ben and Jerry's at this point. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me. Where can the folks listening or watching this work where can they find you online?
Yes, they can reach me @theconsciouscommunicator.ca and also on social media and on Instagram @theconsciouscommunicator and on Facebook @commscoach.
I mean, we'll have all the links in the episode notes. I appreciate you. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today.
Thank you so much Celine. This has been awesome.
Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.
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