What does it mean to lead through crisis—not just survive it, but transform through it? Zimbabwean pastor and activist Evan Mawarire joins us for a powerful conversation about courage, purpose, and becoming who you’re meant to be through adversity. Crisis can be what unwraps your greatest potential.
What does it mean to lead through crisis—not just survive it, but transform through it?
In this gripping and inspiring conversation, Zimbabwean pastor and global advocate Evan Mawarire shares how one simple video turned into a national movement that changed the course of Zimbabwe’s history. As founder of the viral #ThisFlag campaign, Evan rallied 12 million citizens to stand up for justice in one of Africa’s most oppressive regimes.
Join us for a powerful conversation about courage, purpose, and becoming who you’re meant to be through adversity.
This is an episode for leaders, executives, and change-makers who want to understand how to act with conviction when the world feels out of control, and how crisis can be the very thing that unwraps your greatest potential.
In this conversation, we explore:
Evan’s story is a reminder that leadership is not about control, it’s about presence, conviction, and compassion. Whether you’re leading a team, a company, or your own life, this episode will help you see crisis not as a setback, but as the portal to your next level.
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Evan Mawarire is a Zimbabwean pastor, speaker, and global advocate for human rights and democracy. In 2016, his heartfelt call for justice sparked the #ThisFlag movement, inspiring millions to take a stand against corruption and injustice in Zimbabwe. His courageous leadership led to multiple arrests and treason charges, but his unwavering commitment to non-violent activism made him an international symbol of resilience and change. A recipient of numerous global honors, including recognition as one of Foreign Policy Magazine’s Top 100 Global Thinkers, Evan has held fellowships at Stanford, Yale, and Johns Hopkins University. His book, Crazy Epic Courage, captures his extraordinary journey from faith leader to political prisoner, offering powerful lessons on courage and leadership.
Learn more and grab the book at www.evanmawarire.org.
You can also connect with him on LinkedIn, Facebook or Instagram (@pastorevanlive).
Céline Williams: [00:00:00] My guest today is Evan Mawarire, a change maker who sparked off and led a citizens' movement for change in Zimbabwe. After facing jail, torture and treason charges, Evan continued to lead what became one of the most defining movements of Zimbabwe. Today, he teaches people how to find their courage and help to change the world.
Welcome to the show, Evan.
Evan Mawarire: Celine, thank you so much. It is a huge honor to be with you guys on, the podcast together with your listeners.
Céline Williams: It is truly my honor because, even just a three sentence bio and it's already clear the kind of of human and impact you have had. So I'm really excited to get into, this conversation today to talk with you more, and very excited to hear more about you. Before we do that, I always start with the question, the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis.
When you hear that phrase, what comes up for you? Or what does that mean for [00:01:00] you?
Evan Mawarire: It really means life as it comes at you. know, because, because life is a series of crisis. You know, Celine, that's the way I look at it. You know,
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Evan Mawarire: I, as a pastor, I would normally say to people, life is a series of struggles. You are either coming out of one. You are in one or you're about to get into one. I think, you know, when you say leading through crisis, I'm really thinking about life as it comes and just deciding to move ahead. No matter what's coming, no matter what's happening. Because at the end of the day, what matters is that you make progress on. What you want to do it, make progress on your life. And you, fulfill what is destiny to you. That's what leading through crisis is.
Céline Williams: I think that's a very powerful interpretation of it. There are two things that I wanna ask about. I'm gonna start with the last one that you said. 'cause I think it's really interesting. You mentioned [00:02:00] fulfilling your destiny, right? Like getting to that point. That is, that's leading through crisis.
Evan Mawarire: Mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: I'm very curious what that means to you. I think oftentimes people hear things like fulfilling their destiny or finding your purpose or whatever version of it it might be. And they go, I dunno, what if it's not right? What if I make a mistake?
There's a lot of it. It feels, though, it can feel overwhelming.
Evan Mawarire: I know, I know, I know. And, and here's the thing. I can see where your question is going because I run into it a lot. You know, in my life, and I meet a lot of people who run into that question, what is destiny or
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: And
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: Have I done it yet? Have I missed the bus?
Is it, is it over? You know? Um.
Céline Williams: I pick the wrong thing?
Evan Mawarire: I mean those are, and those are scary, like existential questions, right? Here's the way I look at destiny. Destiny is not [00:03:00] what we are going to, but it's what's coming out of us as we live our lives. Right.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: you, it's not a destination. You're not trying to get to a particular place, but it's what you are becoming.
It's who you are becoming. It's coming out of you rather than you. It's coming to you, right? And because of that, for me, destiny is in your control. It puts what purpose is in your control. It's not fate. It's not that it's happening to you and there's nothing you can do about it, and you just hand yourself over to it.
You have a decision in the making of. You get to sit in the director's chair in the making of and say, I want this prop here. I want that prop here and I want this scene to go in this direction. And here's where it gets interesting. It's when things either don't go according to plan or look like they are going out of control, right?
We talk [00:04:00] about things that went out of control. We are not hearing ourselves going out of control whose control your control. Right. It's when things get out of control and it's normal for things to get out of control. That's how we know that you are going somewhere, you're trying to do something.
'cause things are getting outta control. And part of the job of directing means getting things back into control, always. Close to the control line as possible. And I think for me, that's the exciting part about living out your destiny and living out your purpose is that it's coming out of you. It's you who crafts it and then you chase it.
Céline Williams: Yeah. I love what you said about control. We talk about this a lot. For anyone who is listening, they're probably like, here she goes again. But recognizing the more you can recognize what's in your control and release the attachment to what's out of it. 'cause there's always going to be things that you can't control.
There's always going to be, and if you add into the things you're trying to control, your, [00:05:00] your destiny, understanding someone else telling you what your destiny is, that's missing the point because it's yours.
Evan Mawarire: Exactly.
Céline Williams: You get to decide. it's not someone else going, okay, hopefully you'll get here.
Enjoy figuring it. Like you get to make choices so you can't actually do it wrong.
Evan Mawarire: Hmm mm-hmm. you, you get to do it. You, you, one of the, one of my favorite songs, is a song by Frank Sinatra,
Céline Williams: Ooh, yeah.
Evan Mawarire: he, where he sings and he says, I did it my way.
Céline Williams: Yes, yes.
Evan Mawarire: I listen to that song, Sally, every time I get goosebumps, I'm like, wow. I have had the chance. To do it my way. Now, it may not be right for everybody else.
It may not have been the best even for, for me, but I got the chance to do it my way. and, and that's part of what fulfillment is all about. The fact that I was able to apply my thinking, I was able to apply my emotions, I was able [00:06:00] to apply my desires, I was able to apply my plan. To something and it worked to a certain level or it didn't work to a certain level because believe it or not, fulfillment also comes from not just owning your victories, but also owning your failures or your days or your times where you didn't make it and saying, that's mine too.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Evan Mawarire: that too, and I'm proud of having stepped up and having walked that part of my life too.
Céline Williams: Yes. I thank you for saying that because it is, we. If you're in the world of entrepreneurship, if you're in the world of going to conferences, you hear all about the wins constantly. This is how what I did, this is how it win, win, win, win, win. And nobody talks about the failures or the things that didn't work.
And I mean, I don't think we should hate the word failure, but I understand people do, but we don't talk about that. And we pretend they don't exist and we don't allow people the grace of saying. [00:07:00] Actually, those are just as important. Take the shame out of it. Take the regret out of it. I learned from that.
I did that and I learned from it.
Evan Mawarire: Oh
Céline Williams: If we can consistently reframe that too, what did I learn from the thing that didn't work? Then that becomes part and parcel of the bigger win, not this separate thing that we try not to look at.
Evan Mawarire: Oh yeah. I had a friend of mine who was actually a mentor to me, and he used to say to me, Yvonne, we are made more by our failures than we are by our successes. the point he was putting across was, every time I do something and it doesn't work. I figured out, okay, it doesn't work that way, so I'm going to try another way.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: And
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: it, when it works out, I don't owe my success to the point, to the moment of success or to the time that I finally got it right. I owe my success to all the times I got it. Because all of those times were the times that taught [00:08:00] me it doesn't work that way. You can't do it that way.
And then I figured out, I iterated and iterated and iterated you were talking about, my story in Zimbabwe. I'll take you into a
Céline Williams: Please, please take us into all of it, because I was gonna ask about that anyway. So.
Evan Mawarire: When, when, when people hear my story, one of the things they kind of ask is, what on earth like, dude, are you? I mean, how did you even do that? And the story starts out in a very ordinary way. I was pastoring a very small church in Harare in Zimbabwe, and our nations Zimbabwe had been through so much in terms of the political. And the economic side of things
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Evan Mawarire: give you a quick example, the guy who was president in Zimbabwe since 1980 had stayed in power for 37 years.
That was until 2017 when he finally was ousted. And in those 37 years, this man, brutally, killed people and just what he did to Zimbabweans in general was horrible. And this is thousands [00:09:00] of people that were murdered. And in one of those moments when he lost the election and just refused to go, he lost the election and just said, I've lost, but I'm not leaving. And then he went into the areas that voted against him and gave people the choice of punishment, whether it was something that they called long sleeve, short sleeve. And it's a choice that you make, whether your arm is chopped off at the wrist or at the elbow. Okay.
Céline Williams: Jesus,
Evan Mawarire: to remind you to vote correctly the next time.
That's
Céline Williams: of course.
Evan Mawarire: bad this man was. And then the economy crashed multiple times. I'll give you one example of the worst economic crashes we had in Zimbabwe in 2008. economy was running at 286000000%.
Céline Williams: Wow.
Evan Mawarire: Let me. I know, I know. It's cr It's crazy, right? 286 million. To put that into context, the largest bank note we had was this guy here. [00:10:00] This is a $100 trillion note.
Céline Williams: my gosh. I can see that in that.
Evan Mawarire: Yep. $100 trillion note. And at the height of inflation, you know what this was able to buy?
Céline Williams: Oh God.
Evan Mawarire: Two loaves of bread, two loaves of bread. In fact, I remember a day that we found out there was bread at a bakery because when you're in a super hyperinflationary environment, you cannot find goods,
Céline Williams: Of course
Evan Mawarire: the shelves.
Everything is being bought, there was bread available when to buy bread. The line to buy bread was two hours long, wrapped around the blocks, two hours long. Stood in the line with my a hundred trillion dollar note to get two loaves of bread. By the time it was my turn to buy. Two hours later, my a hundred trillion dollars note could only buy me half a loaf of bread.
The price was actually going up once I was in the line every single hour or at least every half an hour, that price was going up.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: Talk about crisis, Zimbabwe was ground zero for crisis in 2008
Céline Williams: [00:11:00] Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: We lost everything. So I'm sitting in my small church office and I'm thinking to myself. How like I am failing to put food on the table for my family. What about the orphanage down the road that we look after? What about the other families that are in our church? So what do we do about this?
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: moment comes where I have to make a decision whether I'm going to just sit and watch or I'm going to do something about it. Now I'm not fully aware what's gonna be on the other side of what I am going to do, but I feel like there is a call to action. There is a, you know, we, we, I talk a lot about, about, about life as a calling that you, you live your life as a calling, as if it's something that you, it's a mission you are here to start and to complete.
And I felt in that moment that there was a mission to be walked here and so I record this four minute and 11 second video that goes completely viral, talking [00:12:00] about why it was important for Zimbabweans to stand up and say something, why it was important for us to figure out a way to be involved in how we change this country.
And that becomes the basis of the citizens movement that we build going forward. Our biggest protest, which we might get a chance to talk about later, is one that we call Shutdown Zimbabwe. I simply recorded a video on my phone and I said, if you care about what's happening to our country, I'm gonna ask you to take one day. day together with me where we protest, but we're not allowed to protest on the street in Zimbabwe. It's illegal. So here's what I'm gonna ask you to do. I'm gonna ask you to stay at home. I'm gonna ask you not to go to work. Don't open your business. Don't take your kids to school. Don't go to the bank.
Don't go to the supermarket. Don't drive on the street. Stay at home and let's shut this whole country down. it was, it was one of the most amazing things because I watched that unfold, and more than 12 million people responded to my call and the entire country came to a complete standstill arrested [00:13:00] immediately after that. I was charged with treason, beaten and tortured and all sorts of things. But on the other side of that experience was one of the most amazing citizen mobilization campaigns that were spontaneous, I saw ordinary people find their courage, step up, come to the courts in their thousands to demand my release, and these are people that everyone said would never find their courage, and they showed up. so for me, the, the, the essence of leading through crisis or the essence of being somebody that wants to keep being present in a crisis means that first of all, you have to have a decision about what it is you're going to do. What am I going to do in this crisis? Right.
Remember I said that earlier on? The way I look at it is that life is a series of crisis. You're either coming out of one, you're either in one or either, you're either body, get into one, and the key question is, [00:14:00] what am I going to do in this crisis? It's not okay to do nothing. And that's what happened to me sitting in my church office.
The decision was to do nothing. As far as I was concerned, was immoral.
Céline Williams: Yeah. I know that is just a piece of your story, but I just wanna acknowledge how powerful even that the, that piece truly is. I can't imagine that moment and the realization and making that choice and how. Just all of the things related to it because it is, there's impacts for you, for your family, for your parishioners, for the people in your community.
And I think it's really incredible that you made that choice. And also, I love that 12 million people protested in that way along with you. I think that is one of the most powerful things I have ever [00:15:00] heard.
Evan Mawarire: You know, Celine, when I look back on that on the story, I still get goosebumps thinking about what I, I'm like, what was I thinking? What were we Are you crazy?
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: But something happens when you make the decision to be present in a crisis, and when you make the decision that. The crisis is the guest in my life. am the permanent resident here. This crisis is temporary, and so I'm gonna face it. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out a way to either live through it or to push it out to get stronger through it, but whichever way, it's not taking over my life.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Evan Mawarire: I, I'm either, I'm in a crisis, but I am not a crisis.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Evan Mawarire: Ooh, that will preach. I'm gonna write that down,
Céline Williams: Yeah. Good. I'm glad. No, but that's, that's exactly it, and that is a very powerful [00:16:00] statement. You are. It is not you. It is not. I think it's very easy for all of us when we are in a crisis and look, let's also acknowledge that the crisis you were in was a macro crisis. That is a countrywide.
Political. It affects your ability to eat, your ability to survive. Like that is a macro crisis that is not a. I can't pay my rent this month, which is a micro crisis compared to that. I think especially when we are in macro crises, we are so prone to, it's so out of my control that I'm gonna do nothing.
I'm going to wait to see what happens as opposed to thinking, okay, what can I do? What
Evan Mawarire: Mm.
Céline Williams: can I control? What is it? Yeah. This may not change the current, you know, government faction that's in that it may not.
But I can control how I speak [00:17:00] about it or what I do. Right. And I think that's what you, that's the really, in one of the many incredible things that, that you did in that moment was you were like, what can I do? What's my choice? What's in my control? And you, you did it.
Evan Mawarire: You know, you could have been a fly on the wall yesterday. I was speaking to 170 students, from around the world who are, taking a leadership course. And that's the exact thing I said to them, literally word for word. 'Cause they were asking, okay, so there are all these crises happening around the world.
I feel helpless, I feel powerless. It's overwhelming. I don't even know where to start. Start where you are with what you have. This used to be an inscription on my wall in my church office, and I actually wrote about it in my, in my, when I finally wrote the memoir after years of Decompressing the Crazy Journey, finally wrote a little memoir about it, and I write about this inscription on my church wall that says, start where you are with what you have, and the world will respond to your passion this is the core or the [00:18:00] nucleus of either leading through crisis or finding your courage of, uh, you know, doing anything is you start where you are. You start with what can I do either for me or in my immediate situation, and then let that grow. For me, it started off being, I have gotta figure out a way to put a meal on my table for my family.
Like I have a five-year-old, a 3-year-old, and my wife is pregnant with our third one, and there's gonna be no dinner tonight and tomorrow if I don't do something about this. so that's where it began. And then it began to grow and over a couple of months it became this national movement that captured the world's attention.
Céline Williams: Yes. So can you tell me a little bit about that that transition from, I'm going to say local, although I local, it clearly became a. It clearly grew beyond national and probably became international in many ways as well. But what was [00:19:00] that experience like from your perspective?
Evan Mawarire: It starting out, I could see the deficits I had in my capabilities. If anything is obvious when you are starting something that's bigger than yourself, it is obvious what you don't have. Right. You can tell you're like, first of all, I do not have the kind of voice, that can capture national attention. I don't have the resources. I don't have the training. I was a pastor. I was not a civic organizer. I was not a political player. I was completely out of my depth when it came to what I was trying to do. What I found in my experience was that the more willing I was to take the step that was in front of me, the more I began to grow in my own understanding of what I could do next. Let me put it to you [00:20:00] this way. I always say to people that. It's not always about what's next. Sometimes it's about what's now.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: A lot of people don't get moving or don't get doing what they need to do because they're trying to wait until they have the full plan in place, until they have the full explanation of, okay, where's the money gonna come?
Where are the connections gonna come? How are we gonna get the influence? How do we get national? And they want to have, and that's okay. That's fine to try and have the plan. But there are times when you can't see the plan. You just don't know the fullness of the plan in those moments. It's important for you to focus on what you can do now and not only on what you should do next.
So focus on the now and not on the next, and that for me was a big part of the journey in the early days. The now step, what are we supposed to do? Now, here's a good example. I start off with the first video that goes viral, and after that I'm like, [00:21:00] okay, so that video went viral.
That was totally unexpected. And I'm scared by the way, I'm completely, completely terrified because I know what has happened to people that have challenged the dictatorship in Zimbabwe. And so the next step I take after that first video was I actually tried to back out of it. And here's the funny story of trying to back out of it, was that a friend of mine came to me who was a comms specialist, and he said to me, Hey Yvonne, here's the thing.
Don't worry about it. There's a way to fix this. Just record a video that explains what you were not saying. and then once that's cleaned up, you should be okay. So we do this, we record this video of what I was not saying, and it's in the middle of that. However, I do go back to saying, however, this is what I am saying.
Céline Williams: Right.
Evan Mawarire: is that we need, a country does need attention. We've gotta hold our leaders accountable and we need to find a way forward that fixes the country. We send the video out. That video goes even more viral than the first one. And I said to my friend, dude, that didn't work. And he says, fear not. There's an [00:22:00] easy way to solve this. Let's go back and let's record another video explaining what you were not saying. And so we go ahead and we record this video that goes viral even more. I realize now that, okay, I can't back out of this. So here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna lean into it I make a pledge.
I say, for the next 25 days, I'm going to make one video a day. Telling you why you should speak truth to power. Telling you why you should find your voice, telling you why you are the person that should be holding your government to account. and in those 25 days, my voice began to grow.
So my experience was one of growing. Almost by intuition, almost by saying, okay, this is the step I've taken. Now I'm at the end of it. What do I do now? And then I'll go ahead and take the next one. Really trusting yourself. You are the master of [00:23:00] this journey. Trust that you know what the now step is, and I'm telling you, you will be surprised where that leads you because it always leads to the next one.
Céline Williams: Um. It reminds me of the concept of so many people when they're looking to build confidence. I'm gonna be a, I'm gonna feel confident as a leader, as a speaker, as an author, as a whatever. They wait to do anything until they're there. And not recognizing that it's actually the steps to get there, that build the momentum, that create that confidence.
It's not the, I'm gonna learn everything about all of these things and then I'm gonna feel confident it doesn't work that way. It is the steps, momentum steps, momentum. And then suddenly you're like, oh, hold on. I feel good about this. And
Evan Mawarire: exactly.
Céline Williams: me of what you're, of exactly what you're talking about.
Evan Mawarire: Oh yeah. I mean, that's the [00:24:00] answer I give to people, I'm gonna steal the phrases you've used there, the steps and the momentum steps, momentum. When people say to me, how did you end up doing this? Because it, it, for me, it, it's almost like I was becoming, I didn't start out as this individual who wanted to challenge the dictatorship, but I became this voice. I became this entity. I became this idea of an ordinary person speaking truth to power, and got to a point where. After three years of doing it, I had been arrested almost eight times. I was facing, between 60 to 70 years in prison had I been convicted and by the time I was at the end of that journey, I kid you not, none of that phased me. I'll be honest with you, none of that phase mean, and, and I'll prove it. We escaped with my family. We escaped Zimbabwe and we landed here in the United States, and after being here six months, my daughter was born when we [00:25:00] got here and after she was born, I remember holding her. Three months after she was born, and I was holding her and this feeling on the inside of me, it was one of the weirdest but exciting feelings that said, you know, you know, you haven't finished, know, you didn't finish. the hardest job was turning to my wife and saying to her, I need to go back.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Evan Mawarire: And her saying, are you outta your mind?
Céline Williams: I'm not surprised by that.
Evan Mawarire: Are you cr are you, and. And then eventually after a really difficult conversation. And I thank her so much for bearing with me. 'cause I'm, I know I was a very difficult person to deal with during that time. We finally made the decision and I went back. I was arrested at the airport on arrival as I walked off the plane
Céline Williams: Wow.
Evan Mawarire: back to the maximum security prison. But those moments were some of the most exciting moments. I was so ready. I was so prepared. However, [00:26:00] had you told me about all of these experiences at the beginning of the journey, Celine, I would've never have taken, I would've told you to go and jump off a cliff
Céline Williams: Right,
Evan Mawarire: happy about falling to the bottom 'cause I'm not doing it.
Céline Williams: right. Not you let, yeah.
Evan Mawarire: But at the end of that journey, I stood there and even now, I look back and I'm like, there is no amount of money you could pay me to give up that experience and the journey and the things I saw, the things we did, the results that we achieved, and the person that I became after that.
Céline Williams: Yes, of course, because I imagine it fundamentally changed you in incredible ways and. Made you who you are now and you get to change the world. Now you get to use that to change the world and change people and change how things operate in a way that has an, [00:27:00] impact beyond yourself is incredible.
Evan Mawarire: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You know, one of the things that I think, and I love your, the name of your podcast Leading Through Crisis, is that you lead through it. Not around it, not over it or under it. You lead through it. And the thing about going through it that on the other side, meet a different version of yourself. It's like literally walking and meeting a version of yourself on the other side that says to you, Hey, look, just look at us now.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Evan Mawarire: to the next level,
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: right? And you get a chance to think of yourself differently, to see yourself differently, and you get a chance to see every challenge around you very differently after you have gone through and allowed yourself to go through it.
Céline Williams: Yes. I love that. And I [00:28:00] think we're not always, aware of that. Definitely not early on, but I think even after the fact. People often don't pause to look at or consider how they've changed who they are. Now, you know, all of the gifts that come from those moments, I'm not taking away from how terrible some of those crises are.
The trauma, all of that exists. And also there is a gift. At the end of it, if we can process, learn from it, do the things that give us that gift.
Evan Mawarire: Mm. And I love that word you've used the gifts. The gifts, right?
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Evan Mawarire: and, part of what gifts suggests to me is this process of unwrapping. If you've gotten a birthday gift or a Christmas gift, there is the process of unwrapping it and opening it up until you get there.
And that's what it is. That's what, that's what leading [00:29:00] through a crisis or facing a crisis head on or making a decision to go ahead through something that's difficult, something that's hard. It's unwrapping a version of yourself.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Evan Mawarire: is unwrapping and I think, if I can put it this way, again, riding on that word you've used, a lot of us are sitting there with stacks upon stacks of unwrapped gifts.
Céline Williams: Oh yes.
Evan Mawarire: The only way to unwrap those gifts is to go through a crisis, is to face the thing that you fear the most. You're not gonna know what's in the box, what's in you until you, until you me, actually, let me riff a little bit on that, on that, and if it doesn't make sense, just edit it out and throw it away and just be like
Céline Williams: I'm sure it will make sense.
Evan Mawarire: But I almost feel like, my late dad, he was a farmer. He was a subsistence farmer, so he wasn't like a big commercial farmer. He used to have a small plot of land is to farm, feed his [00:30:00] family and one of the things he taught me, he used to say, Evan, I want you to understand that I become a master farmer. at the beginning of planting a crop, but at the end of planting a crop. And he says the reason for that is. As I sow my seeds and I look after my crops and I tend them every single day, and I wanted them and I watched them grow and I weed them and I put fertilizer and at different levels of growth.
Some I prune, some, I add, you know, different kind of supports to help them grow. the end of it, when I am harvesting, I not only have grown a crop, the crop has grown A farmer. And I said, wow. And he said, yes. It's the, the process makes us, the crisis, unwraps us. Right?
Céline Williams: Yes.
Evan Mawarire: and so allowing [00:31:00] ourselves to. To face a crisis. To go through a crisis is really allowing a process of unwrapping versions of ourself, capabilities of ourselves, certain perspectives of ourselves and the world that we would never have unless and until we allow the crisis to unwrap.
Céline Williams: Yes.
I, that's incredibly powerful and it is. It's so important because we live in a world and I, you know, for sure in North America, we live in a world, but other parts of the world as well that is so hyper-focused on the goal and getting to the thing that we forget about the process of getting there.
Evan Mawarire: Oh yeah.
Céline Williams: And what your father said, which I love that it is about remembering that the process is the, that is it.
That's the thing. [00:32:00] It's, it's the process. That's what matters most.
Evan Mawarire: it's definitely the process I think a big part of, looking back on the journey and where I'm at is realizing the way I'm relating with the future now is very different from the way I would have related with my future at the beginning of the journey i'm seeing things through the lens of possibility. I'm seeing things through the lens of, opportunity. I'm seeing things through the lens of, options, what could be. There's almost a taking on of the future with a very new bag of skill sets, a very new, almost renewed or upgraded survival kit. Some of the things I'm doing now may not be as dangerous. I speak a lot on courage, and I say to people that courage is not measured by the danger we face. It's measured by that. Actions we take [00:33:00] for the things we care about the most. That's an important way of defining courage because it means that courage has less to do with danger.
It has less to do with fear and everything to do with how much you care about something and the actions you're gonna take. For that particular thing, and so I'm excited even looking ahead now, the decisions I am making for the actions I'm taking for the things that I care about the most. The danger comes later.
The crisis for me is secondary to the fact that I made the decision on this journey.
Céline Williams: Yes. I could talk to you for the next four hours, because this is, you're beyond just your story being fascinated, you, fascinating the way you frame things and put things together is so compelling. And I cannot thank you enough for chatting with me. Before I, wrap things up, I always like to invite the guest if there's something we didn't get [00:34:00] to that you want to bring up, or if there's something you wanna emphasize or just say, actually I'm good and whole and complete I invite you into any of those options or another.
Evan Mawarire: I, you know, the title of your podcast is it really draws me in, you know, it draws me in and draws a lot out, of me, because I think that that's the, I'll go to something I said at the beginning. I think that that's what life is made of.
Céline Williams: Yes, yes,
Evan Mawarire: struggles. is made of challenges,
Céline Williams: yes.
Evan Mawarire: of our goal being to delete the crisis or delete the challenges, our goal really should be going through it. It's actually futile to delete the struggle or to delete the crisis. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Evan Mawarire: The more you look at the crisis as being a feature or being a door, it's not a wall.
There's a door in the wall. There's a chance to build a door through the wall. It's a portal. A crisis is a portal to the [00:35:00] next level. It's a portal to the next version of who you are. Once you look at it that way. There's an attraction to it rather than a repelling from it.
I'll stop there because, like you said, our conversation, the way you've set me up, we could talk forever.
Céline Williams: Well, I hope that means that you'll come back and talk with us again because I very much enjoy this and I enjoy getting to know you and I know, my audience is gonna love this. So thank you for taking the time to chat with me and, for anyone. All the links to find Evan will be in the show notes per usual.
And if you're listening and you wanna note it down, his website is. Evan Mawarire and that's E-V-A-N-M-A-W-A-R-I-R-E.org. And you can find out more about him there, but show notes, everything will be there. Um, thank you for everything that you brought today and for who you are in the world and everything you've done.
It's [00:36:00] unbelievably inspiring.
Evan Mawarire: Thank you so much Celine, and thank you. To your amazing listeners who are excited about the crisis that are in their lives.