In this episode of Leading Through Crisis, Céline Williams speaks with Ernesto Gómez, founder, CEO, and author, about how leaders can navigate rapid change, uncertainty, and constant disruption to unlock the hidden potential within their teams. Traditional leadership models are no longer enough.
In this episode of Leading Through Crisis, host Céline Williams sits down with Ernesto Gómez, founder and CEO of Aspen Mindset1 and author of Regrowth: How Organizations Can Overcome Stalling by Unlocking Their People’s Potential.
Together, they explore how leaders can navigate today’s complex landscape—where crises are no longer occasional events but an ongoing reality.
Ernesto shares powerful insights on why organizations stall, how culture can either enable or block change, and why the real driver of performance lies within teams. He introduces the concept of “push vs. pull leadership” and explains how great leaders unlock potential not by applying pressure, but by creating the right conditions for people to thrive.
Through real-world examples and practical frameworks, the conversation explores how leaders can rethink their approach to decision-making, innovation, and team development in an era of accelerating change.
You’ll learn:
• Why crisis is becoming the new normal for leaders
• The three layers of organizations: products, capabilities, and culture
• How team dynamics drive organizational performance
• The difference between push leadership vs pull leadership
• Four cultural pillars that unlock team performance
• Why humility and psychological safety are critical leadership traits
• A practical framework for moving from stagnation to regrowth
If you're a leader navigating uncertainty, building high-performing teams, or trying to drive change in a rapidly evolving world, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on how leadership must evolve.
—
Ernesto Gómez is a seasoned executive with over 30 years of experience, having built and led successful ventures across the food service industry in both the US and Mexico. Transitioning from a dynamic serial entrepreneur to a high-level corporate leader, he served as VP of Human Capital at Grupo Alfa, a major Mexican conglomerate with 83,000 employees, before becoming Chief Human Resources Officer at Sigma Alimentos, a global consumer packaged goods company with 43,000 employees. In these roles, he spearheaded global talent and cultural initiatives, playing a pivotal role in organizational transformation.
Ernesto is the author of Regrowth: How Organizations Can Overcome Stalling by Unlocking Their People’s Potential. Ernesto is a lifelong learner.
He studied social communications and has completed executive programs at leading institutions, including Stanford GSB, MIT Sloan School of Management, Wharton Business School, Kellogg School of Management, Chicago Booth, London Business School, and IMD Business School.
He is the founder and CEO of Aspen Mindset1, a consulting firm dedicated to helping organizations and individuals reach peak performance. In 2024, Ernesto was invited as a guest speaker in the "Lead through Ambiguity" course at MIT Sloan School of Management.
To learn more about Ernesto’s work, head to aspenmindset1.com. You can also connect with him on LinkedIn (Ernesto Gómez Arzapalo) or Instagram (@aspenmindset_1).
Ernesto Gomez: [00:00:00] I really think that in a fast changing world, as you were saying, full of crisis and when you. More than ever need ingenuity and, and fresh thinking. You really have to do things different in terms of how you work with your team members
Judith: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
Céline Williams: My guest today is Ernesto Gomez, founder and CEO of Aspen Mindset 1, a consulting firm dedicated to helping organizations and individuals reach peak performance. He is also the author of Regrowth [00:01:00] How Organizations Can Overcome Stalling by unlocking their People's potential. Welcome, Ernesto.
Ernesto Gomez: Hi Céline. Very nice meeting you. Thank you for having me in your podcast.
Céline Williams: It is absolutely my pleasure. I'm happy to speak with you today. And before we get into all of the interesting things that I know you're gonna share with the audience, I'm gonna ask the question I always ask, which is the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis.
What comes up for you? Or what does that, what does that phrase mean to you when you hear it?
Ernesto Gomez: Hearing some of your episodes and you talking about crisis, inevitably I thought about, what is my interpretation of a crisis?
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Ernesto Gomez: And really a crisis is depending on how you frame it, it's just.
The point where things, you know, go wild and you have disruption, but very often you have also moments of crisis in the making, which may not be as clear and as radical, but are, are equally [00:02:00] important. And I would even say that is for, for any business executive, it's, it's extremely, important. To have the, foresight to detect, you know, when a crisis, it's still young, but eventually would hit you.
So what I see, it's a moment of radical, of a deep change. And that's exactly what, I love talking about the moments where, you know, where you used to do, don't work anymore. And then you have to pivot or find a different way to address things and survive. And, these days I think we have our good share of crisis all over the world.
A actually, if I may please, I would like to talk a little bit about something that I've been thinking. If I were to ask your audience, you know, if we were to take a pull here and say, tell me about. 2020 to 2025. Do you think that the last five years [00:03:00] have been extremely difficult, very challenging, you know, full of crisis?
You know, you, we had the pandemic, we had a war, you know, we had a value chain that got just bananas with many, many things. And if people were to raise their hand and say, do you think that's the. Probably the most demanding period that you have ever faced in terms, you know, business wise I probably would get, 80 to 90% saying, sure.
This has been hectic. And if I were to ask your audience also, what do you think about the next five years? You think that the next five years are gonna be easier, you think are gonna be more difficult or about the same? I would probably put my bet on people saying it's gonna be more difficult just because, just think about the world these days.
We have a technology disruption, [00:04:00] geopolitical risk everywhere. We have a, a trade problems all over the place. And what this tells you is that, you know, crisis is here to stay and, and not only here to stay. More than likely it's gonna get even worse. And by the way, I always tell this to, to business leaders, if you think that you have been, you know, challenged, in the last five years, this next period not only is gonna be more challenging, you also will be called to do more with less on top of that.
So guess what? It's not going to be easy at all. Uh, so that's kind of the playing field where, you know, in terms of crisis, where I think we should place ourselves and say, well, if this is the case, what do I have to do about that? What can I do and how can I face it? [00:05:00] And, and also succeed? So that's, I think that's an interesting point, but I was trying to refer to.
How I frame a crisis and, and what a crisis means. And, this is gonna be the new normal, I believe.
Céline Williams: Years ago I was doing a, I was a talk and I that point, I had a, a slide up where I was talking about the rate of change just from a technology perspective. How in the past a hundred years you could see that rate of change go up.
And it was at the point, and this was again, I don't know, eight years ago maybe, and at that point it was impossible for one person to really, track and understand the rate of change, just technology and that it was going because it was at an exponential rate, the amount of change and what was happening,
it was just gonna keep getting faster and more, and I say this [00:06:00] because what I hear in what you're talking about in terms of the crises and the changes and the instability, it's, it's not only technology. The problem we have right now is that it is multifaceted. So while I was talking about one thing, it's really, hey, guess what?
The disruption is everywhere and that change is everywhere, and it is exponential. So it's not gonna get easier. It's going to become more balls to juggle in the air. And what do we do?
Ernesto Gomez: You know, I've been hearing about the pace of change for a while. Many years. And they always say, you know, things are changing really fast.
But I can tell that that was different. I mean, yep. The scenario that we are facing, specifically with artificial intelligence, climate change and all these things that are happening, you [00:07:00] know, tells us that that rate of change is gonna be even more problematic.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Ernesto Gomez: And if you think about organizations and, you know, people, leading teams, you kind have to figure out.
I need to do something different because if I don't, I'm just gonna be playing this by the same rules on an environment that is not the same anymore. Yes. So I really think that that has a big implications for leadership.
Céline Williams: Well, first off, it's easy to say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Let's just keep doing the thing that's worked so far. That's the easiest thing to say. I'm not saying it's the most correct, but that's what a lot of leaders and organizations do. It's also very easy to ask the question, well, what? Like what should we change without actually.
Really getting into it or knowing where to start or understanding what to do with it. So I say that because I'm curious from your perspective, your experience, when you talk about a [00:08:00] changing, a change of approach, thinking about things differently, because of everything that's happening, what is even a starting point?
Where do we start?
Ernesto Gomez: I'm gonna answer your question, but please bear with me. I'm gonna take a, a turn. I just, for the
Céline Williams: record, I love a turn.
So take all the turns.
Ernesto Gomez: If you think, uh, uh, you know, I use this. Example that actually comes from Steve Baller, the, from the former Microsoft CEO before Satya Nadella and after Bill Gates. He describes organization as, as three concentric circles, you know, the, the outer circle. Think about, you know, your offerings, what you bring to the market, product, services, whatever that is in touch with, you know, the customer.
If you think about that. How companies operate these days. I was reading the other day that we operate with products or services. 90% of those products and [00:09:00] services are legacy products. Products that have been for a while maybe changed a little bit, but not quite much. It's just a small amount of products that are really changing, you know, a bit.
While the environment is really very demanding. And the environment, and expectation for customers are ever changing. So right there you have the first conflict, and if you go to the next circle, you know, inside Circle the second one, that's where you find your capabilities, the capabilities that you have to deliver those products.
You know, whether it is. If you're Amazon, your logistics, your warehouse systems, if you are Walmart, you know your stores properly located, you know, real, proper light, good prices, et cetera, et cetera. And by the way, those capabilities are, are really hard to to, to establish. Most companies have five or six capabilities at the most, [00:10:00] and you compete with those.
It takes a lot of time in investing years to be good at that. Hmm. So you have your products and the capabilities that your products require. To serve your customers. That's where most people, you know, place attention when there is a crisis. Say, I need to change my products, I need to change my capabilities, et cetera.
And there is a, you know, good reason for that. But the third and final circle, it's actually culture. It's the soft wiring of the organization that makes everything possible, and that's where the willingness to change resides. And that system will choke or facilitate change when customers expect something different.
You have to modify your products and you have to modify your, your capabilities. And we all have heard about, you know, you know, well, this is the way we [00:11:00] always done this here. You know, it's just, it's just the way it is. We, we heard like, you know. Yeah. Uh, I have my. Uh, my turf and I'm gonna succeed in my part of the company, and I don't care about everybody else.
You know? Mm-hmm. You hear like, you know, simply people trying to say, what's in it for me? Just, just to, to make that change. So when you say where do you start? You, you have to touch the three levels. At some point, and since the third one, people, it operates with, intangible forces, it is really difficult to appreciate.
Now, where do you start? I believe that you have to start with teams. The very basic unit of analysis of every company is a team. I mean, you hire [00:12:00] individuals in order to perform within a team. Mm-hmm. You filter that and you have to start with teams. The aggregation of teams will give you the company.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Ernesto Gomez: Margaret Thatcher used to say that there is not such, such a thing as society. There are individuals and families, and it's pretty much, you know, valid for, for organizations as well. So teams make it or break it in terms of how you face. A crisis. How do you face uncertainty? How do you face new rules, demanded from your customers?
The team is the ba the ba basic unit of analysis in any company, and that's where change happens.
And I, I have a story about, you know, I used to be, um, VP of marketing for a CPG company
Céline Williams: mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: In Mexico, and we sold, you know, cold meats [00:13:00] and we had an SKU an item, that was the biggest seller of, of all, it was a package of ham. Sliced ham,
Céline Williams: huh.
Ernesto Gomez: You know? And, uh, a presentation of 250 grams and why 250?
Because that's the way it's been always, you know, for many, many years. Back in the day when you go to the delic counter, back in the day in Mexico, customer is, you know, give me a quarter. And they sliced, you know, quarter of a, a kilo, and then that's what they give you. So when things evolved and meat cold meats were packaged, they say, well, since people order always.
A quarter of a kilo, let's do a package for a quarter of a kilo. And that was the way it worked for many, many, many, many, many years. And we had a, a very, one of the most profitable items in the portfolio, probably the most.
Céline Williams: Hmm. [00:14:00]
Ernesto Gomez: And, so it's about 20 grams per slice. So you have 12 slices, more or less for 250 grams.
And the team started thinking and, you know, talking to customers and talking to our people in the deli counter, what happens, how often do you really slice a quarter of a kilo? When they ask you for a sliced product in, in the counter and they say, well, very often I go beyond, you know, a couple of slices, something like that, and people don't seem to mind.
Uh, and then we figure out that, uh, some people. Go and buy products, you know, every week. So they wait until Sunday to replenish their stock.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: And they may run out of product maybe on Friday, but they would, you know, wait until Sunday. So we decided to challenge that and to say. [00:15:00] What if we changed the size of the package?
That was like a, a belief, you know, the way we have always done this and why don't we go beyond that, and we added two slices. So instead of 250, we went to 290. I tell this story because for a company that's a really, really risky move, because you, you produce thousands and thousands and thousands of packages, and if the.
If you make a mistake, you know your customers are gonna abandon you and go with the, with the competition. So we run that risk and we challenged that belief, that idea of, you know, this is the way it's always been done. To make a long story short, that was 10 years ago, the package still sells for 290 grams.
We created a lot of profitability because the whole system improved. Now we have more kilos sold per package in the distribution [00:16:00] system that lowered the price per unit, you know, the cost per unit. In terms of transfer transportation, we sold it to extra slices and we charged them. There was room, you know, in the price point to do that.
And we increased sales by 16% just by doing that.
Céline Williams: Wow.
Ernesto Gomez: And the question was, you know, what kind of mental models we have here and what do, do we think for sure that. It's there, but we may wanna challenge that. So that dynamic in the team, end up changing a value system that in terms of, of of, you know, the valuation for, for CPG companies created literally more than a hundred million dollars in terms of value.
So that's a really small example of how a decision within the team, can have a lot of impact.
Céline Williams: Well, there's a lot to be said for, the [00:17:00] first off, the having the type of culture on that team, even if it's not in the whole organization as a whole, but on the team where it's okay to ask that question and to challenge.
That that is it, you know, it feels safe. It's okay. It's allowed, whatever. There's space for it, whether it's formal or informal, but also the importance of questioning the biases that we have that drive us to do the things the way we've always been doing them
Ernesto Gomez: in, in the book. I, I can, I cannot, cannot agree with you more in the book.
Uh, I present. In the cultural chapter, or I, what I call the, the stewardship model, which actually is, can be LE Leadership slash Stewardship, but I'd rather use the, the name stewardship because I really think that as much as you know, we are our leaders, I really think that we, [00:18:00] the word leadership puts a lot of attention in just one individual.
Mm-hmm. And, you know, attracts all the lights into the leader. You know, the, this person that has, you know, the foresights to do things different and everybody else is a follower. So, so I really think that in reality you have to really balance that out and I thought that using the word stewardship served that concept better.
And, and I really think that at least there are four things. For, to empower a team that everybody, anybody can do, whether you have a small company or you have a small team, or you belong to a larger corporation. And these, four things are very well known, but, just put them together. The first one, of course, is ownership.
You have to establish a commitment and honor that commitment, unknown your results. Do whatever it needs to you, you [00:19:00] have to do to deliver on what you promise. The second one, I, it, it's, balancing ego versus truth. Very often in teams and, and people leading teams, there is this ego component about, you know, I'm the highest person.
In the team, I have, you know, the title, I'm the highest paid person. I've been right before, so I'm always right and I really think that to a certain extent, ego is good, but you have to have a limit because going beyond what is healthy starts to, toxic and, and I say ego truth, because what you're really trying to find in a team is the truth.
And, and, and I believe it was, Steve Jobs who, who used to say he, he don't, he didn't want to be right. He wanted to get it right.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm. '
Ernesto Gomez: cause if you wanna be right all the [00:20:00] time and you want to, you know, have your, your this image about. Being the smartest person in the room, that's fine, but probably more than likely you will, you will be better if you pay attention to what some people have to say in order to have the right solution and make the right decision.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: I also think that psychological safety, of course, that we have all heard about is extremely important. You were saying feel included. You know, being able to, to speak up without, you know, being punished and being able to challenge the, the, the status quo is very important.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: And lastly, the genuine, willingness to make your colleagues in the team better.
I mean, to really, really, you know, nurture each other and say, if I can help you in any way. To, you know, up your, your game. Uh, I'm here to help. If you want me to help, I'm here to help. And just people trying to make [00:21:00] others better. I really think it's really valuable. So those four things, if you wanna have a team that performs better, you have to have ownership, ego versus truth.
The genuine interest of, of helping others get better and psychological safety. That will really change your path quite a bit. And, and, going back to the, to the example that I was providing, the team felt, you know, that they had psychological safety and, and there was no ego there. We said, you know, we just wanna find the best solution for the problem no matter where it comes from and who says that.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm. It's one of the things that, I love those four things and I think they're really important. And one of the things that, I have talked about ad nauseum, I'm sure on this podcast as well, is that I, I think the most overlooked leadership [00:22:00] quality that is the most important one of, if not the most important, is humility.
And that is that you are confident in what you are doing, but you have the humility to know, to recognize a better idea, to not get hung up on always having to be right to listen to other pe. So it's that there's confidence, but there's also humility. And what I hear inside of everything that you're talking about with that culture is that humility is built into it.
Ernesto Gomez: That's spot on. Thank you for sharing that. I really think that that's exactly the kind of the, the, the, the insight behind, you know, what we've been saying and, and it's counterintuitive because typically when you're the boss, you are there because you're supposed to be always right because you, the company puts you there because you have to lead a team because you proved that your decisions were good and then.[00:23:00]
You know you're gonna be right all the time. And a track record of results, don't get me wrong, it's really good,
Céline Williams: of course.
Ernesto Gomez: But, you have to really be open to hear different opinions. I always tell, you know, especially, people starting in, in companies, in organizations that want to, you know, become the boss or move through the hierarchy.
So this belief of you escalate position means or implies that you, you know, just go to, to the ladder, step up, you know, and start, you know, escalating. When in reality what really happens is that your team pushes you up.
It is not that you escalate by, you know, going over others or trying to be look like, you know, the star. It's that in reality, when the team works well and results are achieved, then it's when, of course, when [00:24:00] when you, you shine. So it's in your best interest really to allow that pushing up that the team creates instead of.
Trying to t trample over them and try to, you know, get accolades and wear all the medals yourself. Uh, and, and it's again for people of, of my generation, that used to be the case, but in, in a world, you know, fast changing world where you are. Supposed to make the best decisions and you don't know how things are changing, you better be prepared to hear, you know, others and, and take into consideration with humility, as you were saying, while you know others contributions to get it right.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Ernesto Gomez: To make the best decision.
Céline Williams: So I, I think there, it's, we're in a really interesting time right now because. [00:25:00] The traditional model, you said your generation, but it it's been traditional. It's even, you know, in the, the world of millennials, right? Like there's still the elder millennials, they still have that.
Very, they were raised in a very hierarchical work environment, right? So it was the, you wi you make your way up, you make these good decisions, you move forward. This is the way it is. Once you're at that level, you make all the decisions. It is you have to, you're here because you're right. That is kind of built into the how we have traditionally thought about leadership and we're in this space right now because of all the change where.
That isn't. While yes, there are lots of people who have ended up in leadership positions, whether it's CEOs or otherwise, that are there because they have that track record. Their track record, and we actually know this. It does not predict our future success. That is not the thing that predicts future success.
And so we're in this pocket right now where [00:26:00] listening to other people, to your point, to that team environment, the better. The people around us are, that's gonna be the predictor of success when we can listen to them and hear them and actually have some awareness of all the potential change. Because that not one, one person can't know it all.
It's not possible.
Ernesto Gomez: In my book I refer to this stages, you know, unlocking potential. Because that's the way where you unlock potential. I'm gonna oversimplify things and, and, I, I give you the advanced warning. There is, the way I see it, predominantly you to unlock potential.
You have two models. One is what I call pull for potential, and the other way is push for potential.
Céline Williams: Okay?
Ernesto Gomez: Right?
Céline Williams: Yep.
Ernesto Gomez: In the push approach, which is something that we have always seen. You have the leader, [00:27:00] you know, applying a lot of pressure to the team saying you have to do better. You raise the bar. Of course you are never satisfied.
You, you just apply pressure and pressure and pressure so that people, you know, do their best. That push model works to a point. And especially in a crisis actually, when things have to be done in a certain way because you have an emergency, it's kind of, you cannot understand that you, you have to use that.
And that push model has been kind of the baseline for many, all, you know, executives and all these iconic figures that we see, you know, even sport coaches and, and, and people in business. But what happens with the push potential is that if you do it all the time, it ends up creating some kind of a ill will in the team.
Céline Williams: Mm mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: [00:28:00] People start resenting that. And Al also is not really effective for innovation, creativity, you know, resourcefulness, foresight, because how can you push for that? If you can see, if you see the, the, the most important innovations in the last 10 years, you know, the idea of, you know, Airbnb or Uber, they were not ideas that were pushed.
Céline Williams: Right? Right.
Ernesto Gomez: So, so, so that, that is kind of the baseline. And then you have the pool model. And in the pool model, you, you kind of say, well, if there is potential within the team that can really. You know, go to the surface. I, I need to connect with the team and explore with them what's in there so that they can unlock it.
And it is not really a matter of pushing, it's a matter of understanding with your, you know, team members. What are their [00:29:00] essential qualities, how they can bring those qualities, you know, to fore what, how can you help? You know, for them to do that. And, and actually that's when people started to, to, to be more engaged because all of a sudden they find things inside them that they can do and do very, very well.
And once you start doing something well, you get better at it. You want more of it, you improve and all of a sudden what you thought was your. Limit for potential, goes beyond your expectations.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: And your potential is a, is a moving goalpost. So what I say is, instead of u using the push model as a baseline, use the pull model as a baseline and switch to the push if needed or when needed.
But, but I really think that in a fast changing world, as you were saying, full of crisis and when you. More than ever need [00:30:00] ingenuity and, and fresh thinking. You really have to do things different in terms of how you work with your team members and, and I really think that is, some people find it.
Complicated because you, you are not supposed to get close to your, you know, employees. You're not supposed to have these conversations with them 'cause you're the boss. And, that could be a sign of weakness maybe. So those ideas, you know, which are just bad mental models are limiting people from allowing the potential to surface in their teams.
That's what I really think that we need to move to, you know, in an environment that requires our constant innovation and participation and idea contribution. We have to connect more. And for that you need humility, as you were saying. So [00:31:00] kind of the, the stewardship model that we were talking about, the humility.
Element that you brought to the conversation? It really, it's part of the pull leadership model. And, and when I say, and I don't mean to say that we have to get rid of the push, because it's, there's a time
Céline Williams: and place.
Ernesto Gomez: It's a time and place and it works and sometimes it's needed. But we have to really understand that there is another way of doing things, and we have to allow that to be our default mode.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: And use the other one sparingly.
Céline Williams: Yeah. So I am, if someone is listening to this and they're thinking, while we've kind of always defaulted into the, the, the push, like that's just kind of what we do. How could I even get started with the pull?
Like what would that, what would, like, how do I do that? What would you, would you have any advice for them? Like, [00:32:00] here's how you could get this started today?
Ernesto Gomez: In the book, I talk about, you know, to do this at, at scale, you have to work in three dimensions. One is talent density. You have to have the right talent, the right density of talent in the key positions of your company.
Where you have your competitive advantages, your point of difference, et cetera. You have to have the culture, you know, component that we were discussing. And then you have, you have to have a mindset component as well. And those three things interact. Our mindset is really a double click into the culture actually.
Because when we are in an organization, which is made out of people, culture is means to an end. We are in the mindset business actually. What, what we are doing, it's establishing frames to look at the world
Céline Williams: mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: And operate accordingly. So when you get into that part for somebody in your audience [00:33:00] hearing, I recommend doing three things first.
Be always willing to look under the hood in your mind and say, you know what? What do I know for sure that may not be appropriate anymore?
Céline Williams: Right?
Ernesto Gomez: I mean, what are those things? I mean, those things are in anchors of you.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Ernesto Gomez: And that served a real good purpose. But sometimes you have to start thinking, well, is that belief really serving me good or not?
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Ernesto Gomez: The other thing is you have to take perspective. You have to be good at taking perspective, which means. Going from the micro to the macro,
Céline Williams: yes.
Ernesto Gomez: Step back and try to see what is happening, you know?
Céline Williams: Mm.
Ernesto Gomez: Not in the task, but in the dynamic that I'm facing.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Ernesto Gomez: And observe, try to observe, from a neutral perspective is, is this working? And then of course, once you figure out if you need to pivot or not, what you need to do, [00:34:00] you, you have to bring action. Into the equation because action really is what, what moves things forward. You have to have agency.
So the willingness to re, to look and to review your identity. The willingness to take perspective to make sense out of what is happening around you, more than likely to find what is limiting you from achieving your goals and the agency to keep on doing that. Is what I recommend people do, and in this three legged stool is very important to reflect.
Have the time to say, you know, what, if I were advising a friend, if I, this is me, you know, to, to which to who the things are happening. But if this was happening to a friend, what advice would I give to my friend? You know, to, to solve the problem. Because in that way you kind of, take up the perspective of, of an [00:35:00] observer and not the protagonist, and you find better solutions.
It's kind of a, a little bit conceptual, but I find that it works.
Céline Williams: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a reason that, you know, whether it's a therapist or a coach or whoever they. Offer a very, and I mean, a good consultant that's not only trying to make the give themselves work will say the same thing. If they suggest taking a step back and stepping into that role, something that they would do when they're asking the question, they suggest doing it because it is conceptual.
But it's important when you're, it's that old adage, right? You can't read the label from inside the bottle when you're in it. You can't see everything. You can't, you're so stuck in that one perspective.
Ernesto Gomez: And, and, and, and most of the times there is another element right there because even, even where you find that something is not working, the next question is, do I want to change or not?
Céline Williams: Amen. [00:36:00]
Ernesto Gomez: Yeah, because you know. I learned this from none other than James Taylor, you know, the folk singer?
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: An interview. He was saying that he, he went through an addiction and he had a big problem and he said something that is from that time to this day, I really cherish that insight. He says it's not the same, knowing that you have to change and not knowing how to, trying to find a way.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Ernesto Gomez: Compared to knowing that you have to change, but deep inside of you don't wanting to.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Ernesto Gomez: And some people they wanna change. They don't know how to, fine, we can help, but you know that somebody tells you you have to change. You say, yeah, I may want to, but deep in my heart, I don't want to.
Nothing. I mean, that's, I I say that's beyond redemption. I mean that, that, that doesn't really help. [00:37:00] And, and you have to face sometimes that's what a crisis does, right?
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: Forces you to say, you know what? I cannot live with this anymore. I need to change.
Céline Williams: Yes. And I would also offer that sometimes people, well, a lot of times people will tell us what they think we need to change about ourselves.
That's just like, that's their perspective based on their experience and their life they're not the ones living your life. So there's a balance in there as well, right? Is that It's okay. It, what I always think is that as long as you're making an intentional choice, if you are, if you are looking at something that requires a change and you're saying, I don't know how to do this, but I want to figure it out, that's a choice.
You're figuring it out. And if you say. I don't wanna do this and I just don't wanna do it. That's not what I wanna change. Own the choice and own the consequences. Good or bad of that choice. Right? It is [00:38:00] that, be intentional in whatever it is. That's always the key, because then you have, it's yours
Ernesto Gomez: Just building on what you said, leadership, it's, it's an act of change always.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Ernesto Gomez: Supposed to move from today's reality to a better one. Regardless of what you do, I mean, you, you have to grow, you have to improve your KPIs. You have to, you know, be a better person, whatever. There is always a next stage that you aspire to, to achieve.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Ernesto Gomez: So if you, you're not willing, it's really hard. You have to appropriate that and make it yours.
Céline Williams: Yep. I agree. Um. Before we wrap this up, I'm gonna ask you what, 'cause we've talked about so many things is there, and thank you for that. I love conversations like this that really span the, the map of things and go all over the place 'cause they're the most interesting.
Um, before we wrap this up, I, I'm gonna ask the question, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you do, that you wanna talk about or something that you wanna emphasize where you're like, let's go back to this for a second. I wanna make sure we. We don't forget this or neither, that's okay too.
Ernesto Gomez: I, I probably just a, a way to frame the whole thing is that in, in [00:39:00] the, in this stages for change, people always expect that you go from wrong to right in one single step, and that that is not in reality, the case.
Céline Williams: If only it was that easy.
Ernesto Gomez: Exactly for organizations for yourself. So you have to understand, and I kind of map four stages, which it's a way in, in, in the implementation of what I do and the, the framework that I have in my book, I say, you, you, you start always with assessing your, your impetus platform.
I say, which is this willingness to change or not. Yeah. This willingness to go forward or not. Then next what you have to do, it's to break through the things that are stopping you from change.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: It's, it's better, you know, to remove barriers first, what is stopping me from advancing? And once you [00:40:00] neutralize those effects, or, or at least make, make it better to remove those barriers, then you are in a better position to change.
Then you start by rerouting yourself and try to start, you know, playing with possibilities. What if I do this? What if I do that? And start, you know, practicing and moving in that direction, even if our baby steps, it's fine. And then you get into the regrowth stage that I mentioned, which is where you really unlock potential.
So you really move through those four stages. By the way, the reason why I chose the name of Regrowth for my book
Céline Williams: mm-hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: Because of that in reality, when you see organizations and people, individuals, there is no way to have a 45 degree ascending line all the time improving and [00:41:00] becoming better, getting better results eternally.
We go through slumps. We regress, we hit walls, we stall. So if you take a long-term perspective, the trick here is how do I regrow once I hit a wall, once I stagnate?
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Ernesto Gomez: And that's exactly what you have to do to recalibrate yourself.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Ernesto Gomez: Am I willing to do this? Yes or no? What are the limitations that I have?
Start? And you have to assess, quite frankly, with objectivity, I have this problem and this is needs to be solved. Then you imagine possibilities and then you get good at that. So that's kind of the, in a nutshell, the path to fo that I suggest to follow.
Céline Williams: Well, I would, I would. Argue that that's also a great, whether you're an organization or a team or an individual, it's a great path to follow regardless that that makes [00:42:00] sense.
In all of those scenarios, right, as an individual you can do that for you as well, which is a great path series framework to be able to use.
Ernesto Gomez: And, and if you think about using the Rs you start with assessing where you are and then you have to remove, and then you have to reroute, and then you have to regrow that.
That's exactly the, just as in nature, by the way, that's what happens in nature.
Céline Williams: Yep. Yep. Um, well, Ernesto. Thank you for chatting with me today. This has been fascinating. I appreciate your generosity of, of sharing your stories and your insights. I hope everyone goes and checks out the, your website will be in the show notes, as I believe a link to the book will be as well.
But the website is Aspen Mindset 1, and that's the number one. Dot com. They can find out more about you there. And I really appreciate.
Ernesto Gomez: And they can contact me on LinkedIn as well if they want. Perfect. Ernesto Gomez, [00:43:00] Arza Palo. You know we here in Mexico, we use the two names. Two last names.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Ernesto Gomez: So Arza Palo is A-R-Z-A-P-A-L-O. Ernesto Gomez, Arza Palo. And just, you know, send me a note or something and I'll be more than happy to chat or discuss anything that your audience wants.
Céline Williams: Perfect. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. So thank you for, for taking the time today.
Ernesto Gomez: My pleasure.
Greatly
Céline Williams: insightful.
Ernesto Gomez: It was a great conversation. Thank you.
Céline Williams: My pleasure.
Judith: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage and clarity.