We’re talking about success and fulfillment and how we rethink both concepts with my guest, EB Sanders. EB observed that 2020 provided an opportunity for many people to think about what they really want for their future: career, lifestyle, and beyond. It was a time to pause, take a step back, and do the evaluation work to really define what success is for them and why.
The focus of this episode is really about navigating the changing systems and realities when it comes to how we work. EB Sanders shares her insights from her work with both individuals as well as organizations, and reflects on the opportunities (and challenges) that are in front of us. When we stop thinking about our career and success as linear and we start to embrace change, as uncomfortable as it might be, we open ourselves up to entirely new experiences and ways of doing things. EB shares her observations on how systems and processes are finally starting to change, the importance of location when it comes to innovation, and the challenges and opportunities that are part and parcel of remote hiring and remote work.
EB Sanders is a career coach who helps creative types ditch their fears and make decisions with confidence so they can achieve the fulfillment they really want.
She went from college professor to recruiting & staffing specialist to career coach all in the name of helping people find their ‘Thing.’ Having gone through two major career changes herself, she came to realize that her Thing is helping people think bigger about how they want to show up in the world.
Today she is a sought-after coach and staffing consultant serving creative individuals, companies, and organizations. She believes that great leaders have extraordinary careers and her mission is to convince everyone that they don’t have to choose between happiness and success.
Find out more about EB Sanders and her Career Change with Confidence program at: www.ebsanders.com
Connect with her
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ebsanders
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eb_sanders
[00:00:01]
I'm Céline Williams,
[00:00:02]
and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis
podcast, a conversation series exploring
[00:00:07]
resiliency and leadership
in challenging times.
[00:00:10]
Hi.
[00:00:10]
My guest today is EB Sanders,
who is a certified career coach
[00:00:15]
who teaches creative types how to find
their thing and design their career so
[00:00:19]
they can achieve the fulfillment
they really want.
[00:00:22]
Thank you for joining me today.
[00:00:24]
Thank you so much for having me Céline.
[00:00:26]
I'm really excited to talk about this
because I think that we were chatting
[00:00:29]
right before we hit record
because that's what we do
[00:00:32]
about.
[00:00:33]
I had this perception and conception that
things would be really busy with people
[00:00:39]
who have lost their jobs right
now and are transitioning.
[00:00:42]
And you were commenting that that's not
[00:00:43]
necessarily all of your
all of your people.
[00:00:46]
And I think that's a really interesting
place to start as we talk about leading
[00:00:50]
through change and crisis
and resiliency and all of that.
[00:00:53]
So I'd love to hear your perspective on.
[00:00:57]
This whole concept and idea and your
experience with it. Absolutely.
[00:01:02]
So I my my main client base is people who are
looking to change their careers or to make
[00:01:08]
major changes in their career to create
the one that they really want it to be.
[00:01:12]
And when this pandemic hit
[00:01:15]
and in California, we've had one
of the strictest lockdowns of anybody.
[00:01:19]
Right.
[00:01:20]
I had to do the adjusting
along with anyone else but mine.
[00:01:23]
I was in a good place because I've been
[00:01:25]
working from home already
for several years.
[00:01:26]
I had all of that ready to go.
[00:01:28]
My client, my new clients at the very
beginning were people who are really
[00:01:32]
struggling just at the beginning
of how do I even do this?
[00:01:35]
And so I got a few new clients.
[00:01:37]
I'm just trying to get them settled
into how to be a leader from home and how
[00:01:40]
to work efficiently from home and how
to do the best that they could be.
[00:01:44]
But as we've gone on,
as this has just progressed and gotten
[00:01:47]
longer and longer,
I expected, like I think many did,
[00:01:51]
that my clients, like you said,
would have come from having lost their
[00:01:54]
jobs, having been laid off or
whatever the reason being.
[00:01:58]
But that hasn't been the case.
[00:02:00]
The bulk of my clients are just like
the rest of us who have had to take a step
[00:02:04]
back and re-evaluate what's truly
important to us, re-evaluate how we live
[00:02:09]
our lives and why we're doing
the work that we're doing.
[00:02:12]
And once they were forced to get off
of autopilot of get up, get on the train,
[00:02:17]
go to work, go to the meetings and just
doing it over and over once they had
[00:02:20]
to have the time to think it,
it was really forced on everybody.
[00:02:24]
My client base now is mostly people
[00:02:28]
who have during that reassessment,
realized that not only did they not like
[00:02:32]
what they were doing,
where they were doing it,
[00:02:34]
but they genuinely weren't fulfilled,
they were not happy, they weren't enjoying
[00:02:39]
doing the work that they
were doing at all.
[00:02:42]
And they felt sort of doubly lost because
[00:02:45]
not only did they that realization hit
them of they didn't know what they wanted
[00:02:49]
to do and they like what they were doing,
but they lost the routine.
[00:02:53]
They lost the structure of just how
[00:02:55]
to sort of function in a
regular workaday world.
[00:02:59]
So my client now are struggling with a lot
[00:03:03]
of the same things
my clients previously were.
[00:03:05]
But it's it's a much more layered
in a way than it had been earlier.
[00:03:11]
Earlier, I would have to explain to people
[00:03:12]
that these are things they should assess
and that they really need to dig deep
[00:03:15]
and understand how they want
to be and who they will be.
[00:03:18]
Now, that's what they're coming to me
[00:03:19]
with, is they've been
forced to sit in this work.
[00:03:22]
So it has been
[00:03:24]
surprising to me and also really great
[00:03:27]
to work with people who are coming
to me with this understanding already.
[00:03:30]
I think it's really interesting how,
you know, when a crisis
[00:03:36]
crisis, because it's like a global
everyone is experiencing this type crisis.
[00:03:40]
But it's really interesting
[00:03:42]
that in a situation like this,
it's the time when people.
[00:03:47]
Start to have those moments
of realization,
[00:03:51]
and I'm big on self leadership, right,
like knowing yourself, leading yourself,
[00:03:56]
having all that insight, they start,
not everyone, but a lot of people.
[00:04:00]
It's when they start doing that work
and it sounds like you're seeing a lot
[00:04:05]
of that and the people
that are coming to you.
[00:04:07]
Yeah, absolutely.
And,
[00:04:09]
you know, a lot of my client is prior
to and in the US,
[00:04:14]
we also have our political crisis
on top of our racial crisis on top of the pandemic.
[00:04:18]
It has really made people re-evaluate how
[00:04:21]
they're living their lives and what
they're doing with the money they're
[00:04:24]
making and how they are
acquiring that paycheck.
[00:04:27]
Who is signing those?
[00:04:29]
So it's it is this evaluation where
before, you know, you had your commute.
[00:04:33]
Right.
And that might have been your only time
[00:04:35]
of the day that you really had a little
bit of time in your head to sort
[00:04:38]
of prepare for your day and think about
you and yourself and what you were
[00:04:42]
planning, where now you don't
even have that for the most part.
[00:04:45]
So you are sort of in it
and in it all day.
[00:04:50]
There is no off.
There is no going to even if you have
[00:04:52]
a separate home office,
there's still very little separation.
[00:04:59]
We're very much living at work,
but also working at a very different way
[00:05:03]
and just spending all
of the time with our family.
[00:05:06]
Or if you are solo, you're spending
all of this time in your own head.
[00:05:10]
And it's it is just a time for everyone to
sit and think what they want to or not.
[00:05:15]
It's sort of being foisted upon us.
[00:05:17]
And a lot of people are inadvertently
doing this work, which is really helpful.
[00:05:24]
That can also be really scary,
especially for people who sort of have
[00:05:28]
just been following a definition
of success that have been placed before.
[00:05:31]
Then people have been climbing
the corporate ladder,
[00:05:33]
people who've been stepping
into leadership and C suite roles.
[00:05:37]
You know, those things were just always
sort of pre outlined and prescheduled.
[00:05:42]
And that was sort of you did
that because that's what you did.
[00:05:45]
And now people are really questioning if
that is even what they want and if it is
[00:05:51]
why they want it and how
they want to get it.
[00:05:54]
And well, yes, it's a it's
a reaction to a crisis.
[00:05:57]
I find a lot of ways it's
an opportunity to be really proactive.
[00:06:02]
For how we're going to be working
in the future, because I think it's pretty
[00:06:05]
obvious, we all know that we will return
to some sense of what it was like
[00:06:09]
previously, but the working world
will never be exactly the same.
[00:06:13]
It just can't be right.
[00:06:15]
So people really are being proactive
in a lot of that decision making
[00:06:19]
and redefining what their
version of success looks like
[00:06:24]
and which is really new for people.
[00:06:26]
I think they think a lot of people had
the idea that only the very,
[00:06:30]
very top echelon of corporate world could
define what that was for themselves.
[00:06:34]
And people realizing that now that not
only can, but they most likely should be
[00:06:38]
defining that for themselves now so
that they know what they're working
[00:06:41]
towards and why they're
working towards it.
[00:06:44]
So I'm really curious.
[00:06:47]
I and I'm making an assumption here.
[00:06:49]
You correct me.
I want to call it out.
[00:06:51]
And I'm assuming that that is part
[00:06:54]
of the work that you would normally do
with someone who is really helping them
[00:06:58]
figure out redefine success
for them, pre pandemic.
[00:07:02]
That was sort of a standard
piece of what you would do.
[00:07:05]
Oh, absolutely.
[00:07:06]
Absolutely.
[00:07:08]
But it was a difficult a lot
of times it was like pulling teeth.
[00:07:12]
I would get I would ask them what their
definition of success was and I would get
[00:07:15]
back basically like a mini mission
statement of whatever corporation people
[00:07:19]
working with, you know, a lot of,
especially because I'm
[00:07:22]
in the Silicone Valley and so
many of my clients are as well.
[00:07:25]
There's a lot of drinking
the Kool-Aid here.
[00:07:27]
We get indoctrinated into where the you
[00:07:30]
are and the culture that that breeds
the definition of success is, well,
[00:07:34]
obviously, you own a home is there and you
own a Tesla and you have a summer place or
[00:07:38]
a rental place in Tahoe and you're
making a certain monetary figure.
[00:07:41]
And of course, you've got
a nanny and two kids.
[00:07:43]
It's but that's one very
small version of success.
[00:07:49]
It's what and it's you know,
[00:07:50]
let's be honest, majority is a white
male traditional definition.
[00:07:56]
And people are now questioning
why that has to be.
[00:07:58]
Whereas before I had to lay it out as
[00:08:00]
an exercise and we would have to
do some actual homework.
[00:08:05]
Now, people are coming to me with having
[00:08:07]
these thoughts, and my job now is more
helping them organize those thoughts
[00:08:11]
rather than getting them to the point
where they're thinking about these things.
[00:08:15]
So, yeah, that is very new,
[00:08:17]
but it is always the core of my work is
not just helping them start to think about
[00:08:23]
what they truly want,
but how they want to do it.
[00:08:26]
Because you also may want the same types
[00:08:29]
of things, but you don't have to do
them in the same way at all anymore.
[00:08:34]
And I think that's been a really nice big
shift I've seen in the last five years.
[00:08:40]
This opening up of, oh, hey,
[00:08:42]
there may be other pathways,
there may be other ways to do things,
[00:08:45]
traditional education
and pieces of papers.
[00:08:47]
And third party proof that you have done
something that gets you to the next step
[00:08:51]
no longer holds the weight
that it used to.
[00:08:54]
And so I think while yes, it's
[00:08:57]
I think I will always have to do this work
with clients, I always have to help them
[00:09:00]
get to what that definition
is for themselves.
[00:09:04]
And how people are thinking
about it is different now.
[00:09:08]
So this is really interesting because
I was having a conversation with
[00:09:12]
someone earlier today who's I'm based
in Canada and they're Canadian and they
[00:09:17]
run a no longer start up,
quite well funded company.
[00:09:22]
And we were talking about
how the experience of
[00:09:28]
finding work before they started this
[00:09:31]
business in Canada,
looking for roles with an MBA
[00:09:35]
and with a lot of that social proof
and how challenging it was,
[00:09:39]
because if it wasn't a linear path from
the organization's standpoint,
[00:09:45]
they weren't interested in even
talking to this person.
[00:09:49]
And I wonder if because and I and I love,
[00:09:53]
by the way, that people that you encourage
people to think about things differently
[00:09:57]
and step out of that paradigm
and that people are coming to you now
[00:10:00]
stepped out of that paradigm
more than ever.
[00:10:03]
I think that's really important.
[00:10:04]
I'm curious if you're seeing
[00:10:07]
organizations responding to that or
leading that or stepping back or because
[00:10:13]
we were talking from a
Canadian perspective.
[00:10:14]
But I love your thought on that,
because I think that's a big piece of of
[00:10:19]
it's a really important part
of the change changing.
[00:10:24]
Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:25]
I mean, so I was a recruiter before I
[00:10:27]
became a career coach and I was always
an advocate for the non-linear.
[00:10:32]
I was always an advocate for the person
[00:10:34]
with the outside voice,
different experience,
[00:10:36]
a wider base of knowledge,
because it leads to more insight,
[00:10:40]
different language,
ways that you're always going to reach
[00:10:43]
the solution to a problem
in a different, better way.
[00:10:47]
I was always a huge proponent for that.
[00:10:49]
And in the US we have this sort
of narrative that we love the pull
[00:10:53]
yourself up by the bootstraps,
the outliers.
[00:10:55]
What's going to get things done? First
[00:10:57]
of all, physical impossibility to pull
yourself up by your bootstraps.
[00:11:01]
But
[00:11:02]
it is we have this narrative that we we
like the guy with the new strange idea.
[00:11:09]
But no, traditionally in the corporate
[00:11:11]
world, it has also been this linear path,
know, with the NBA, with all of that.
[00:11:17]
And I'm not I don't think
that will ever go away.
[00:11:20]
I really don't.
But I think now people are seeing.
[00:11:23]
That there is opportunity in the people
[00:11:26]
who didn't follow that path because
of the differences of ideas
[00:11:30]
and from a strictly money making
standpoint, which, let's be honest,
[00:11:34]
every decision made in the business is
a money making decision right, they're
[00:11:37]
realizing that when you reach other
audiences through problem solving in different
[00:11:41]
ways, which usually means not hiring
the person who's got on the linear
[00:11:45]
MBA path, you make more money because
you're reaching people where they're at.
[00:11:51]
And so I think it will and is changing.
[00:11:55]
And as we've seen now,
[00:11:57]
since all corporations have been forced to
finally put in the infrastructure that we
[00:12:01]
always knew was available,
that you don't have to have someone's butt
[00:12:04]
in a particular seat in a particular
location they now are on.
[00:12:09]
I'm already seeing it.
They're already opening up, you know,
[00:12:13]
talent pools in smaller locations where we
wouldn't have accepted them from before
[00:12:17]
because it's like, oh, well, they're not
you know, they're not white.
[00:12:20]
They didn't get the MBA.
[00:12:21]
They don't live in a major
metropolitan area.
[00:12:22]
Well, obviously, they're not a culture
fit for us that is already changing.
[00:12:27]
So.
[00:12:27]
Well, I'd like to say that the US
have a different view than that.
[00:12:31]
Can they sort of take I think we love
[00:12:33]
the story that we do,
but I don't think we really have.
[00:12:37]
But we are moving towards that.
[00:12:40]
And I think it's to say, yeah.
[00:12:42]
So I I appreciate your
perspective on that.
[00:12:45]
It's really it's interesting.
[00:12:48]
I think that I'm I love the work and
[00:12:54]
the idea of bringing in various lenses
and viewpoints
[00:12:59]
for exactly what you're saying,
which is the biggest thing to me is
[00:13:03]
the diversity of thought
and that diversity of of experience
[00:13:08]
and not just
the echo chamber of same sameness.
[00:13:15]
And so I think that there's a I think.
[00:13:19]
I think there's a big a real opportunity,
and what I hear inside of what you're
[00:13:23]
saying is that there's this real
opportunity to expand that out from what I
[00:13:27]
think a lot of companies do and what a lot
of people think of diversity, equity,
[00:13:31]
inclusion, whatever you want to call it,
like whatever your term for it is when
[00:13:34]
they think it is versus what it really is,
like a whole next level.
[00:13:40]
Oh, yeah.
[00:13:42]
It's yeah, a lot of corporations do this.
[00:13:45]
Oh, we're going to expand,
we're going to reach out.
[00:13:47]
Well, look, we've made
a few diversity hires.
[00:13:50]
Great.
[00:13:51]
You've brought them into a system that was
built to keep them from succeeding.
[00:13:56]
How is that?
[00:13:57]
If you include them in that system,
it's still that system.
[00:14:00]
So, yeah, they have to go deeper than just
bringing those people in or just even
[00:14:06]
saying they're going to listen to those
voices or go after that market,
[00:14:09]
whoever it may be,
it is truly about changing
[00:14:11]
the fundamentals
of how they're solving problems,
[00:14:16]
who they're
tapping to solve those problems and what
[00:14:20]
they're doing with those
solutions at the end.
[00:14:23]
And some companies are doing
better with it than others.
[00:14:27]
So people are allowing their leadership
kind of roles to change the look,
[00:14:34]
not just the look, but how they function,
which I think is the linchpin there is.
[00:14:40]
The functionality has to change.
[00:14:42]
You can't just listen to the voices if you
[00:14:44]
collect all that data
and you do nothing, was it?
[00:14:46]
It's pointless.
[00:14:48]
So changing and giving leaders or made
[00:14:53]
and I'm a huge advocate of creating
leaders, whether or not they've got
[00:14:56]
the title, allowing them to have
agency and to feel that they have some
[00:15:05]
agency to actually make change
[00:15:06]
and to discuss things with stakeholders
and genuinely make change to internal
[00:15:12]
processes that will affect
their end products.
[00:15:16]
It doesn't matter if
you just bring them in.
[00:15:18]
If you don't change how you allow
them to work, it will come to naught.
[00:15:22]
So I, I do a lot of work
with culture, right.
[00:15:26]
With organizational culture
and change organizational culture.
[00:15:29]
And I love what you're talking about
[00:15:30]
because this is I mean, this is
why I have a podcast on leading
[00:15:36]
thing, because so often
the culture piece is a checkpoint
[00:15:42]
right in a box like, oh,
[00:15:44]
you know, we have words on the wall
and a ping pong table and we do events.
[00:15:48]
We have great culture.
[00:15:50]
It's like, how do you guys actually
operate and how are you who like,
[00:15:55]
what are the rules around what
listen, I, I feel and rules.
[00:15:58]
But,
you know, I fully appreciate
[00:16:01]
that there are some things that someone
else needs to make a decision around.
[00:16:06]
I get that.
[00:16:08]
But inside of every rule,
[00:16:09]
there's also the opportunity for people
to make decisions and take ownership.
[00:16:13]
So what how are you explaining
[00:16:15]
that and what does that look like
and how does this all function together?
[00:16:17]
And what is this what is the sandbox
[00:16:19]
that we are all playing
in and what does that mean?
[00:16:22]
And it's and it's really
interesting because
[00:16:27]
I am curious with with you what you're
seeing, not only the work that you're
[00:16:32]
doing, but we are seeing your
experiences are more companies.
[00:16:36]
Really starting to think that way,
[00:16:38]
or is it industry specific,
because I'd imagine and I'm so comfortable
[00:16:42]
being wrong,
but I'd imagine in San Francisco
[00:16:46]
there are a lot of Silicone Valley startups
that they're more mindful of the realities
[00:16:51]
of that than maybe other
parts of the country.
[00:16:55]
That is really interesting.
[00:16:57]
I deal with people in a lot of different
markets and in different fields.
[00:17:02]
And I would say
[00:17:03]
it's really interesting because New York,
which you think of as this like
[00:17:09]
innovative outlook, they are
genuinely the most traditional.
[00:17:13]
My clients who are in New York are stuck
[00:17:16]
in these old old patterns, especially
if they work in any sort of media.
[00:17:21]
They are stuck in these just entrenched.
[00:17:25]
Oh, it's like the guys who run
[00:17:27]
the railroad started these media
companies, right, and they still function
[00:17:30]
that way, which boggles my mind because
I do approach it very much from this.
[00:17:36]
I'm in the land of disruption
[00:17:38]
and innovation, which a lot of times is
lip service, not try to pretend it's not.
[00:17:42]
But I do find where people don't give
[00:17:44]
enough credit is to like
the Chicagos and the Austins.
[00:17:49]
And the Iowas, the whole state,
very, very different ways of thinking
[00:17:54]
and being, but a lot of amazing
ideas and a lot of just
[00:18:00]
normalcy of difference of opinion.
[00:18:04]
Yeah, I never think difference
of opinion is a bad thing.
[00:18:10]
I wouldn't say it's field specific,
[00:18:12]
but location definitely has an effect
and Canada is just as big as the US.
[00:18:16]
There's like a million ways to do
anything in both of our locations, but.
[00:18:21]
Yeah, I think there are very stereotypes
that work and don't work and a lot
[00:18:26]
of times work against what you think you
might be able to do in a certain place.
[00:18:29]
But I want to hope that it's changing.
[00:18:33]
I want to I really do want
to hope that I see that.
[00:18:36]
I do see it in certain places.
[00:18:38]
I've got a couple of clients who
[00:18:40]
are there in other fields other
than tech here in the Bay Area.
[00:18:43]
And they see a lot of the same issues.
[00:18:46]
They see a lot of, oh, well,
they need quote unquote, diversity hires.
[00:18:49]
And then these poor hires
are not set up for success.
[00:18:51]
And I now they're just sort of plunked
[00:18:54]
in and then expected to do their job as
well as, oh, here, educate everyone else
[00:18:59]
on how to deal with you
appropriately, quote unquote.
[00:19:02]
It's so unfair in such a blatant way
[00:19:07]
that I don't know how it continues
to exist because then it affects their job
[00:19:10]
performance, obviously,
because I test them for two jobs.
[00:19:13]
You're underpaying them for one.
[00:19:15]
So.
[00:19:18]
Well, I see companies across the board
[00:19:21]
in all fields and all
regions making overtures.
[00:19:24]
I think it's pretty obvious we know
there's so much work left to do.
[00:19:30]
That's why I think locations like Atlanta
are amazing,
[00:19:33]
where so many black entrepreneurs have
just opted out of the white run system.
[00:19:37]
OK, you don't want to fund my project.
Cool.
[00:19:39]
I will take the money it will generate
elsewhere and have really built this
[00:19:43]
amazing supportive network
which should have existed
[00:19:49]
that they shouldn't have
had to create on their own.
[00:19:51]
But they did.
[00:19:52]
And they are out there,
some tech companies.
[00:19:55]
Sure.
[00:19:55]
But there's also fashion companies and
media and everything going on.
[00:19:59]
So it's we know it's doable,
[00:20:02]
but clearly the system is
just broken to get there, so.
[00:20:06]
It's almost like the there's like I'm
going to use the term scrappiness
[00:20:11]
that comes from not being a major hub,
but allows you to think about things
[00:20:15]
differently and approach
things differently.
[00:20:16]
So it's and it's like
resiliency in humans, right.
[00:20:19]
Or grit or whatever.
[00:20:21]
Use the term scrappier.
[00:20:23]
But if you sometimes out of necessity,
more than anything,
[00:20:29]
you end up being the person that like
the entrepreneurs in Atlanta you're
[00:20:33]
talking about that are leading
the way for other people.
[00:20:38]
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
[00:20:41]
And I think, unfortunately,
that's really common.
[00:20:43]
And if you just look at kind of anything,
[00:20:46]
any market, any housing market where
an underrepresented community will go in
[00:20:51]
because it's the only place open to them,
because rents are cheap or
[00:20:56]
labor is less expensive or materials are
just more readily available,
[00:21:01]
then they turn it into something
amazing than the old guard comes in.
[00:21:05]
It's like, oh, look at that..cool...
[00:21:07]
Let's just get our hands on that and let's
buy that up and step that up and
[00:21:10]
then drive the people who created it
out, which I'm hoping against
[00:21:15]
hope.. I hope it's not against hope
[00:21:16]
so I'm hoping that these strongholds
are allowed to say stay strong.
[00:21:21]
And you see it overall in real estate.
[00:21:23]
You see it in business all the time.
[00:21:24]
This is not a new concept,
but I'm hoping now
[00:21:28]
that kind of localized powers have been
slightly dispersed and that I mean,
[00:21:34]
we've seen a huge fight here from people
just moving all over back across country
[00:21:38]
because there's a lot of people who were,
quote unquote, forced to live here to work
[00:21:41]
in the tech industry,
who didn't ever want to live here.
[00:21:44]
And now they've been able to move and take
their skills and their expertise and maybe
[00:21:47]
their culture and maybe their family
and go do something else somewhere else.
[00:21:51]
And I hope that chips away at the
armor of the old guard a little bit.
[00:21:55]
Yeah, I love that.
[00:21:57]
I love that you're seeing that.
[00:21:58]
I think that's a really I'm not surprised,
[00:22:01]
given the expense of the Bay Area and the
I know a lot of people that moved there,
[00:22:09]
not because they wanted to,
but because the job opportunities and it's
[00:22:11]
like it's great that they don't
have to be there anymore.
[00:22:15]
Yeah.
[00:22:15]
And it should have been
this way for a long time.
[00:22:17]
And a lot of us have been jockeying
for people to hire outside of the market.
[00:22:23]
There's no need in 2021
[00:22:25]
for you to have to sit next
to someone unless you're working
[00:22:28]
on a physical product with them
where they need their hands on it.
[00:22:32]
There is no reason for that anymore.
[00:22:35]
And hopefully now this will have forced
[00:22:38]
some change of thought
for some change in the system.
[00:22:41]
And now if you can afford a Chromebook,
[00:22:45]
something very inexpensive,
you can create something anywhere.
[00:22:48]
And you not that entrepreneurship
is for everyone.
[00:22:52]
Not that leadership is for everyone, but
[00:22:55]
the idea that it's doable is for everyone,
[00:22:59]
and so hopefully traditional corporate
structures will understand that they can
[00:23:03]
move outside of their
normal candidate funnel.
[00:23:06]
They can look out into other pools
[00:23:08]
of talent that just would not have
had a chance to be seen before.
[00:23:12]
And I think everyone
will be better for it.
[00:23:15]
It's an interesting challenge because
[00:23:18]
if I think about companies, you know,
even ones that I've worked with over the
[00:23:24]
a number of years now that have gone
remote or done some version of hybrid pre
[00:23:29]
pandemic and also out of necessity,
necessity in 2020,
[00:23:34]
the challenge has often been
not the going remote itself.
[00:23:38]
But how do you work
in a different environment?
[00:23:43]
How do you hire in a different scenario
[00:23:46]
how it's the it's the structures
that they have in place
[00:23:51]
that you can't just transfer
them to remote.
[00:23:53]
You can't just hire the same way
remotely that you do in person.
[00:23:58]
You know, candidates show up differently,
[00:24:02]
remote, like there's both from the company
and the individual perspective.
[00:24:06]
It's a different experience.
[00:24:08]
Absolutely.
[00:24:09]
And I do consulting with companies who are
[00:24:11]
really struggling to find and retain
hires because it's very expensive.
[00:24:15]
Right.
And once I pin them down on, OK,
[00:24:20]
this is what you say you want and what do
you actually want,
[00:24:23]
because those are 90 percent
of the time to very different things.
[00:24:27]
Then we do talk about what the system
[00:24:29]
looks like now in terms of hiring,
because I very early on when I started
[00:24:33]
consulting during the pandemic and in this
exact topic, I had come to say, OK,
[00:24:39]
we liked the candidates we were getting,
but we've already had two interviews
[00:24:42]
and we couldn't hire either of them
because they weren't wearing a suit,
[00:24:46]
which is they were so used to people
coming into their financial district
[00:24:49]
downtown office wearing a suit that they
could not even wrap their minds around
[00:24:54]
the fact that it would been a little
strange for someone to be sitting
[00:24:57]
on their couch with their zoom set up
in a suit and they weren't even willing
[00:25:02]
to to look past that,
whereas the candidate thought it would
[00:25:04]
have been much more appropriate to be
slightly casual or casually dressed.
[00:25:10]
Right.
[00:25:10]
They were doing what they felt was
something as simple as just what
[00:25:12]
a candidate is wearing versus
much of the old guard.
[00:25:16]
I was working with a company who even
though in California,
[00:25:19]
we've been on one of the strictest
lockdowns anywhere we
[00:25:22]
like on house arrest until today,
you could not leave your home.
[00:25:26]
I had a company where the owner, CEO,
[00:25:29]
refused to hire anyone that he
had not met in person.
[00:25:32]
And it's not a very large company,
about 40 ish people.
[00:25:35]
So not a crazy expectation.
But right now,
[00:25:38]
absolutely absurd expectation now that he
he was expected to fly candidates across
[00:25:43]
the country and have them like,
go sit out on a park bench to meet him.
[00:25:47]
And he could not just he wasn't
trying to be intentionally obtuse.
[00:25:52]
He just in a very real way,
[00:25:54]
could not wrap his head around
the fact that that could not happen.
[00:25:58]
And, B, that he needed to figure out
a different way for him to get
[00:26:02]
the chemistry, understanding that he was
looking for,
[00:26:06]
just with meeting someone over video and
looking at different types of candidates.
[00:26:11]
Because one of the reasons I was called
[00:26:12]
in is that they only had
one employee of color.
[00:26:16]
And of course, he was male.
[00:26:17]
So it was like we're still working on it.
[00:26:21]
It is still a struggle
for him to understand.
[00:26:24]
And there unfortunately,
[00:26:25]
at a certain level,
there isn't anything you can do to make
[00:26:28]
the stakeholders who have the overhead
understand there's nothing you can do.
[00:26:33]
They you can get them to understand
that there are limitations in place
[00:26:37]
and how to best work
within those limitations.
[00:26:39]
And for certain
[00:26:41]
hiring managers at certain levels,
it is going to be presenting them.
[00:26:45]
You know, if you are the hiring manager or
[00:26:47]
HR recruiter,
presenting them with it,
[00:26:49]
as close as an experience as you can
possibly get to what they're used
[00:26:53]
to and coaching the candidate,
that that's what they're used to seeing.
[00:26:57]
I think fully so many millennials
are in hiring roles at this point.
[00:27:03]
That isn't quite as big
of a problem for them.
[00:27:08]
They're used to doing so much via the
Internet that it's they're tired of it.
[00:27:12]
They're bored with it.
They wish it was different,
[00:27:14]
but they know how to work within its
confines in a much different way.
[00:27:19]
So I find that to be much
more of a generational issue.
[00:27:23]
And unfortunately,
[00:27:24]
there is a certain point where there isn't
a lot you can do other than,
[00:27:27]
you know, getting them to understand,
presenting the best experience you can.
[00:27:30]
But I find millennials make
great hiring managers right now.
[00:27:35]
I feel if you don't,
[00:27:37]
it'd be strange if you didn't have
[00:27:39]
a hiring team that was packed
with them at this point.
[00:27:42]
But if you didn't ask them for their
expertise, ask them how they handle it.
[00:27:46]
Use the people that you have to make
the experience as good as you can for both
[00:27:51]
you, your team and your candidates
if you want the best candidates.
[00:27:55]
It's not just about
[00:27:57]
the pattern that they've taken to get
[00:27:59]
there, but it's about
setting them up for success.
[00:28:01]
From the interview forward.
[00:28:04]
I love that
[00:28:06]
I'm going to change tack
a little bit and I want to ask.
[00:28:10]
So inside of everything that you're saying
[00:28:13]
and inside of your experience, I hear
you deal with leaders a lot, right?
[00:28:19]
This is whether they're company owners,
[00:28:22]
whether they're leaders in organizations,
whether they're individual candidates.
[00:28:26]
I hear a lot of you dealing with leaders.
[00:28:28]
And I'm wondering from your perspective
[00:28:30]
and experience, what makes
a leader successful?
[00:28:36]
These days, with all of the
constant nonstop change that we are,
[00:28:43]
challenges, the unknown that
we're all dealing with?
[00:28:46]
What what do you think makes
the most successful these days?
[00:28:50]
I find it the most successful leader,
no matter what their title.
[00:28:54]
If they are crystal clear on the outcome
that they're working towards,
[00:28:59]
they can just make it work with changes,
with reversals, with complete upheavals,
[00:29:06]
it's being crystal clear on what
the outcome is and getting the team
[00:29:10]
to agree that that's what
they're all working towards.
[00:29:13]
And once they've got that and they've got
everyone in agreement there,
[00:29:17]
that it doesn't matter what little changes
come up in between or personality
[00:29:22]
conflicts, you're all on the same
team working towards the same goal.
[00:29:26]
And everyone is working towards that goal.
[00:29:28]
And it is under stood.
[00:29:30]
And once they can clearly define that,
[00:29:33]
whether it's something really simple,
an agenda for a meeting versus taking
[00:29:38]
a new product from ideation to launch,
if they know crystal clear what that is
[00:29:43]
and they can communicate
that they will do great.
[00:29:46]
I love that you said an agenda
for a meeting because I was just
[00:29:51]
thinking.How many leaders do I know that,
[00:29:54]
that
[00:29:54]
is not a thing.
[00:29:57]
And it's very literally
everyone's pet peeve,
[00:30:02]
not having one
[00:30:04]
or having a very clear one that everyone
knows what they're expected and then just
[00:30:08]
obliterating it and going
in with something out of left field.
[00:30:13]
It just throws everyone off
[00:30:16]
they've been focused
on this discussion.
[00:30:19]
Also, they've got to make
it stop and reverse it.
[00:30:21]
And it just takes so much
more time to refocus.
[00:30:24]
It is so much more detrimental
than just not having the meeting.
[00:30:30]
Yep.
Yep.
[00:30:31]
I think it is a pet peeve of mine how we
tend to do meetings and how how everyone
[00:30:41]
has problems with them and thinks they can do
[00:30:43]
better, and yet no one actually
does better. Ever.
[00:30:47]
Yeah, it's
[00:30:49]
it's shocking because you're right,
everyone thinks they can do better.
[00:30:53]
I even worked at an agency once that had
a list of rules for meetings that they
[00:30:57]
eliminated them and they put them on every
table, every surface where a meeting could
[00:31:01]
be held around and everyone
was having a clear set agenda.
[00:31:05]
And on time and simple rules,
we're all in the same sandbox.
[00:31:10]
Let's share the tonka truck.
[00:31:11]
No, no one could follow them.
[00:31:13]
It's it is shocking.
[00:31:16]
Yeah, it's
[00:31:18]
and I will say this.
[00:31:20]
I don't know if this is if you would if
this has been your experience,
[00:31:23]
but I will say that if nothing else, this
stay at home orders the quarantining.
[00:31:30]
The people working from home has
[00:31:32]
highlighted just how bad most companies,
how poorly most companies run meetings.
[00:31:39]
Oh, absolutely.
And it's it's interesting cause there's
[00:31:42]
a lot of stories,
anecdotes that I use in my work.
[00:31:45]
When I the moment I knew I needed to leave
[00:31:47]
corporate world myself and work outside
of it is when I found myself in a meeting
[00:31:52]
about a meeting, about
a button on a website.
[00:31:58]
Yeah, yeah,
[00:32:01]
and if I remember correctly,
[00:32:03]
it was like an hour and a half long
meeting and it was about a meeting.
[00:32:06]
Yeah, and it was one of those hours.
[00:32:07]
This isn't how humans are meant to spend.
[00:32:14]
Yeah, but I, I
[00:32:18]
yeah.
[00:32:19]
Wow.
[00:32:21]
That might be that might be one of those
[00:32:23]
reading stories I'm going
to tell people about.
[00:32:26]
I would be like, let me tell you a story
[00:32:28]
about a meeting about her about
a button on a website that happened.
[00:32:32]
Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:32:35]
And I think hopefully this is one
[00:32:37]
of the good things because people realize
you don't all have to be in a room
[00:32:41]
going through all of the nuts
and bolts and things.
[00:32:44]
Generally, those meetings were just super,
[00:32:46]
super top level, barely actually
getting into the process of anything.
[00:32:50]
Anyway, great.
[00:32:51]
Send a quick video explaining what
you need from your entire team.
[00:32:54]
Shoot them the video done right.
[00:32:56]
There's new ways to do things
and it can be done efficiently,
[00:33:01]
cleaner, quicker, more engaging.
[00:33:03]
People can actually get
the information they need.
[00:33:06]
It's shocking what technology
can do these days.
[00:33:10]
Very true.
[00:33:12]
So I.
[00:33:15]
I'm going to kind of.
[00:33:18]
Get to wrap this up.
[00:33:19]
I want to be respectful of your time,
and I'm when you hear the term or the idea
[00:33:23]
leading through crisis, what does
that what does that mean to you?
[00:33:27]
What comes up for you inside of that
[00:33:30]
leading through crisis
to me is about the people.
[00:33:34]
It's I think it to truly lead that it's
[00:33:38]
not about the company
objectives in terms of profit.
[00:33:41]
I think to leave it
go back to the what that word means.
[00:33:45]
You're leading people, right?
[00:33:47]
Go back to your people if you can make
sure that you are leading your people
[00:33:51]
and caring for them and taking care
of their their needs in terms of your
[00:33:56]
work, as well as just
them as human beings.
[00:34:00]
And you have that empathy.
[00:34:03]
There will be nothing that you can't do
[00:34:05]
at the corporate level because they will
be behind you because they know that you
[00:34:07]
genuinely care about them as people,
not just cogs in your system,
[00:34:13]
but you have to start with remembering
that you're leading people.
[00:34:20]
I love that I think that is a really
[00:34:22]
powerful place to wrap this up,
because I don't think there's anything
[00:34:26]
more important for leaders to remember
than they're leading people.
[00:34:31]
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
[00:34:33]
Thank you for chatting with me EB.
[00:34:35]
It's been really lovely.
[00:34:37]
We will find EB online
at EBSanders.com
[00:34:41]
she has a course career change
[00:34:43]
with confidence that you can find
more information about there.
[00:34:45]
All the links will be
in the show notes for this.
[00:34:49]
I really appreciate you taking the time
to come and chat with me today.
[00:34:52]
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been so great.
[00:34:55]
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
[00:34:57]
Thanks for joining me today
on the leading through Crisis podcast.
[00:35:01]
If you enjoyed this conversation,
[00:35:03]
please take a minute to rate
and review us on your podcast app.
[00:35:06]
If you're interested in learning more
about any of our guests,
[00:35:09]
you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.
[00:00:01]
I'm Céline Williams,
[00:00:02]
and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis
podcast, a conversation series exploring
[00:00:07]
resiliency and leadership
in challenging times.
[00:00:10]
Hi.
[00:00:10]
My guest today is EB Sanders,
who is a certified career coach
[00:00:15]
who teaches creative types how to find
their thing and design their career so
[00:00:19]
they can achieve the fulfillment
they really want.
[00:00:22]
Thank you for joining me today.
[00:00:24]
Thank you so much for having me Céline.
[00:00:26]
I'm really excited to talk about this
because I think that we were chatting
[00:00:29]
right before we hit record
because that's what we do
[00:00:32]
about.
[00:00:33]
I had this perception and conception that
things would be really busy with people
[00:00:39]
who have lost their jobs right
now and are transitioning.
[00:00:42]
And you were commenting that that's not
[00:00:43]
necessarily all of your
all of your people.
[00:00:46]
And I think that's a really interesting
place to start as we talk about leading
[00:00:50]
through change and crisis
and resiliency and all of that.
[00:00:53]
So I'd love to hear your perspective on.
[00:00:57]
This whole concept and idea and your
experience with it. Absolutely.
[00:01:02]
So I my my main client base is people who are
looking to change their careers or to make
[00:01:08]
major changes in their career to create
the one that they really want it to be.
[00:01:12]
And when this pandemic hit
[00:01:15]
and in California, we've had one
of the strictest lockdowns of anybody.
[00:01:19]
Right.
[00:01:20]
I had to do the adjusting
along with anyone else but mine.
[00:01:23]
I was in a good place because I've been
[00:01:25]
working from home already
for several years.
[00:01:26]
I had all of that ready to go.
[00:01:28]
My client, my new clients at the very
beginning were people who are really
[00:01:32]
struggling just at the beginning
of how do I even do this?
[00:01:35]
And so I got a few new clients.
[00:01:37]
I'm just trying to get them settled
into how to be a leader from home and how
[00:01:40]
to work efficiently from home and how
to do the best that they could be.
[00:01:44]
But as we've gone on,
as this has just progressed and gotten
[00:01:47]
longer and longer,
I expected, like I think many did,
[00:01:51]
that my clients, like you said,
would have come from having lost their
[00:01:54]
jobs, having been laid off or
whatever the reason being.
[00:01:58]
But that hasn't been the case.
[00:02:00]
The bulk of my clients are just like
the rest of us who have had to take a step
[00:02:04]
back and re-evaluate what's truly
important to us, re-evaluate how we live
[00:02:09]
our lives and why we're doing
the work that we're doing.
[00:02:12]
And once they were forced to get off
of autopilot of get up, get on the train,
[00:02:17]
go to work, go to the meetings and just
doing it over and over once they had
[00:02:20]
to have the time to think it,
it was really forced on everybody.
[00:02:24]
My client base now is mostly people
[00:02:28]
who have during that reassessment,
realized that not only did they not like
[00:02:32]
what they were doing,
where they were doing it,
[00:02:34]
but they genuinely weren't fulfilled,
they were not happy, they weren't enjoying
[00:02:39]
doing the work that they
were doing at all.
[00:02:42]
And they felt sort of doubly lost because
[00:02:45]
not only did they that realization hit
them of they didn't know what they wanted
[00:02:49]
to do and they like what they were doing,
but they lost the routine.
[00:02:53]
They lost the structure of just how
[00:02:55]
to sort of function in a
regular workaday world.
[00:02:59]
So my client now are struggling with a lot
[00:03:03]
of the same things
my clients previously were.
[00:03:05]
But it's it's a much more layered
in a way than it had been earlier.
[00:03:11]
Earlier, I would have to explain to people
[00:03:12]
that these are things they should assess
and that they really need to dig deep
[00:03:15]
and understand how they want
to be and who they will be.
[00:03:18]
Now, that's what they're coming to me
[00:03:19]
with, is they've been
forced to sit in this work.
[00:03:22]
So it has been
[00:03:24]
surprising to me and also really great
[00:03:27]
to work with people who are coming
to me with this understanding already.
[00:03:30]
I think it's really interesting how,
you know, when a crisis
[00:03:36]
crisis, because it's like a global
everyone is experiencing this type crisis.
[00:03:40]
But it's really interesting
[00:03:42]
that in a situation like this,
it's the time when people.
[00:03:47]
Start to have those moments
of realization,
[00:03:51]
and I'm big on self leadership, right,
like knowing yourself, leading yourself,
[00:03:56]
having all that insight, they start,
not everyone, but a lot of people.
[00:04:00]
It's when they start doing that work
and it sounds like you're seeing a lot
[00:04:05]
of that and the people
that are coming to you.
[00:04:07]
Yeah, absolutely.
And,
[00:04:09]
you know, a lot of my client is prior
to and in the US,
[00:04:14]
we also have our political crisis
on top of our racial crisis on top of the pandemic.
[00:04:18]
It has really made people re-evaluate how
[00:04:21]
they're living their lives and what
they're doing with the money they're
[00:04:24]
making and how they are
acquiring that paycheck.
[00:04:27]
Who is signing those?
[00:04:29]
So it's it is this evaluation where
before, you know, you had your commute.
[00:04:33]
Right.
And that might have been your only time
[00:04:35]
of the day that you really had a little
bit of time in your head to sort
[00:04:38]
of prepare for your day and think about
you and yourself and what you were
[00:04:42]
planning, where now you don't
even have that for the most part.
[00:04:45]
So you are sort of in it
and in it all day.
[00:04:50]
There is no off.
There is no going to even if you have
[00:04:52]
a separate home office,
there's still very little separation.
[00:04:59]
We're very much living at work,
but also working at a very different way
[00:05:03]
and just spending all
of the time with our family.
[00:05:06]
Or if you are solo, you're spending
all of this time in your own head.
[00:05:10]
And it's it is just a time for everyone to
sit and think what they want to or not.
[00:05:15]
It's sort of being foisted upon us.
[00:05:17]
And a lot of people are inadvertently
doing this work, which is really helpful.
[00:05:24]
That can also be really scary,
especially for people who sort of have
[00:05:28]
just been following a definition
of success that have been placed before.
[00:05:31]
Then people have been climbing
the corporate ladder,
[00:05:33]
people who've been stepping
into leadership and C suite roles.
[00:05:37]
You know, those things were just always
sort of pre outlined and prescheduled.
[00:05:42]
And that was sort of you did
that because that's what you did.
[00:05:45]
And now people are really questioning if
that is even what they want and if it is
[00:05:51]
why they want it and how
they want to get it.
[00:05:54]
And well, yes, it's a it's
a reaction to a crisis.
[00:05:57]
I find a lot of ways it's
an opportunity to be really proactive.
[00:06:02]
For how we're going to be working
in the future, because I think it's pretty
[00:06:05]
obvious, we all know that we will return
to some sense of what it was like
[00:06:09]
previously, but the working world
will never be exactly the same.
[00:06:13]
It just can't be right.
[00:06:15]
So people really are being proactive
in a lot of that decision making
[00:06:19]
and redefining what their
version of success looks like
[00:06:24]
and which is really new for people.
[00:06:26]
I think they think a lot of people had
the idea that only the very,
[00:06:30]
very top echelon of corporate world could
define what that was for themselves.
[00:06:34]
And people realizing that now that not
only can, but they most likely should be
[00:06:38]
defining that for themselves now so
that they know what they're working
[00:06:41]
towards and why they're
working towards it.
[00:06:44]
So I'm really curious.
[00:06:47]
I and I'm making an assumption here.
[00:06:49]
You correct me.
I want to call it out.
[00:06:51]
And I'm assuming that that is part
[00:06:54]
of the work that you would normally do
with someone who is really helping them
[00:06:58]
figure out redefine success
for them, pre pandemic.
[00:07:02]
That was sort of a standard
piece of what you would do.
[00:07:05]
Oh, absolutely.
[00:07:06]
Absolutely.
[00:07:08]
But it was a difficult a lot
of times it was like pulling teeth.
[00:07:12]
I would get I would ask them what their
definition of success was and I would get
[00:07:15]
back basically like a mini mission
statement of whatever corporation people
[00:07:19]
working with, you know, a lot of,
especially because I'm
[00:07:22]
in the Silicone Valley and so
many of my clients are as well.
[00:07:25]
There's a lot of drinking
the Kool-Aid here.
[00:07:27]
We get indoctrinated into where the you
[00:07:30]
are and the culture that that breeds
the definition of success is, well,
[00:07:34]
obviously, you own a home is there and you
own a Tesla and you have a summer place or
[00:07:38]
a rental place in Tahoe and you're
making a certain monetary figure.
[00:07:41]
And of course, you've got
a nanny and two kids.
[00:07:43]
It's but that's one very
small version of success.
[00:07:49]
It's what and it's you know,
[00:07:50]
let's be honest, majority is a white
male traditional definition.
[00:07:56]
And people are now questioning
why that has to be.
[00:07:58]
Whereas before I had to lay it out as
[00:08:00]
an exercise and we would have to
do some actual homework.
[00:08:05]
Now, people are coming to me with having
[00:08:07]
these thoughts, and my job now is more
helping them organize those thoughts
[00:08:11]
rather than getting them to the point
where they're thinking about these things.
[00:08:15]
So, yeah, that is very new,
[00:08:17]
but it is always the core of my work is
not just helping them start to think about
[00:08:23]
what they truly want,
but how they want to do it.
[00:08:26]
Because you also may want the same types
[00:08:29]
of things, but you don't have to do
them in the same way at all anymore.
[00:08:34]
And I think that's been a really nice big
shift I've seen in the last five years.
[00:08:40]
This opening up of, oh, hey,
[00:08:42]
there may be other pathways,
there may be other ways to do things,
[00:08:45]
traditional education
and pieces of papers.
[00:08:47]
And third party proof that you have done
something that gets you to the next step
[00:08:51]
no longer holds the weight
that it used to.
[00:08:54]
And so I think while yes, it's
[00:08:57]
I think I will always have to do this work
with clients, I always have to help them
[00:09:00]
get to what that definition
is for themselves.
[00:09:04]
And how people are thinking
about it is different now.
[00:09:08]
So this is really interesting because
I was having a conversation with
[00:09:12]
someone earlier today who's I'm based
in Canada and they're Canadian and they
[00:09:17]
run a no longer start up,
quite well funded company.
[00:09:22]
And we were talking about
how the experience of
[00:09:28]
finding work before they started this
[00:09:31]
business in Canada,
looking for roles with an MBA
[00:09:35]
and with a lot of that social proof
and how challenging it was,
[00:09:39]
because if it wasn't a linear path from
the organization's standpoint,
[00:09:45]
they weren't interested in even
talking to this person.
[00:09:49]
And I wonder if because and I and I love,
[00:09:53]
by the way, that people that you encourage
people to think about things differently
[00:09:57]
and step out of that paradigm
and that people are coming to you now
[00:10:00]
stepped out of that paradigm
more than ever.
[00:10:03]
I think that's really important.
[00:10:04]
I'm curious if you're seeing
[00:10:07]
organizations responding to that or
leading that or stepping back or because
[00:10:13]
we were talking from a
Canadian perspective.
[00:10:14]
But I love your thought on that,
because I think that's a big piece of of
[00:10:19]
it's a really important part
of the change changing.
[00:10:24]
Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:25]
I mean, so I was a recruiter before I
[00:10:27]
became a career coach and I was always
an advocate for the non-linear.
[00:10:32]
I was always an advocate for the person
[00:10:34]
with the outside voice,
different experience,
[00:10:36]
a wider base of knowledge,
because it leads to more insight,
[00:10:40]
different language,
ways that you're always going to reach
[00:10:43]
the solution to a problem
in a different, better way.
[00:10:47]
I was always a huge proponent for that.
[00:10:49]
And in the US we have this sort
of narrative that we love the pull
[00:10:53]
yourself up by the bootstraps,
the outliers.
[00:10:55]
What's going to get things done? First
[00:10:57]
of all, physical impossibility to pull
yourself up by your bootstraps.
[00:11:01]
But
[00:11:02]
it is we have this narrative that we we
like the guy with the new strange idea.
[00:11:09]
But no, traditionally in the corporate
[00:11:11]
world, it has also been this linear path,
know, with the NBA, with all of that.
[00:11:17]
And I'm not I don't think
that will ever go away.
[00:11:20]
I really don't.
But I think now people are seeing.
[00:11:23]
That there is opportunity in the people
[00:11:26]
who didn't follow that path because
of the differences of ideas
[00:11:30]
and from a strictly money making
standpoint, which, let's be honest,
[00:11:34]
every decision made in the business is
a money making decision right, they're
[00:11:37]
realizing that when you reach other
audiences through problem solving in different
[00:11:41]
ways, which usually means not hiring
the person who's got on the linear
[00:11:45]
MBA path, you make more money because
you're reaching people where they're at.
[00:11:51]
And so I think it will and is changing.
[00:11:55]
And as we've seen now,
[00:11:57]
since all corporations have been forced to
finally put in the infrastructure that we
[00:12:01]
always knew was available,
that you don't have to have someone's butt
[00:12:04]
in a particular seat in a particular
location they now are on.
[00:12:09]
I'm already seeing it.
They're already opening up, you know,
[00:12:13]
talent pools in smaller locations where we
wouldn't have accepted them from before
[00:12:17]
because it's like, oh, well, they're not
you know, they're not white.
[00:12:20]
They didn't get the MBA.
[00:12:21]
They don't live in a major
metropolitan area.
[00:12:22]
Well, obviously, they're not a culture
fit for us that is already changing.
[00:12:27]
So.
[00:12:27]
Well, I'd like to say that the US
have a different view than that.
[00:12:31]
Can they sort of take I think we love
[00:12:33]
the story that we do,
but I don't think we really have.
[00:12:37]
But we are moving towards that.
[00:12:40]
And I think it's to say, yeah.
[00:12:42]
So I I appreciate your
perspective on that.
[00:12:45]
It's really it's interesting.
[00:12:48]
I think that I'm I love the work and
[00:12:54]
the idea of bringing in various lenses
and viewpoints
[00:12:59]
for exactly what you're saying,
which is the biggest thing to me is
[00:13:03]
the diversity of thought
and that diversity of of experience
[00:13:08]
and not just
the echo chamber of same sameness.
[00:13:15]
And so I think that there's a I think.
[00:13:19]
I think there's a big a real opportunity,
and what I hear inside of what you're
[00:13:23]
saying is that there's this real
opportunity to expand that out from what I
[00:13:27]
think a lot of companies do and what a lot
of people think of diversity, equity,
[00:13:31]
inclusion, whatever you want to call it,
like whatever your term for it is when
[00:13:34]
they think it is versus what it really is,
like a whole next level.
[00:13:40]
Oh, yeah.
[00:13:42]
It's yeah, a lot of corporations do this.
[00:13:45]
Oh, we're going to expand,
we're going to reach out.
[00:13:47]
Well, look, we've made
a few diversity hires.
[00:13:50]
Great.
[00:13:51]
You've brought them into a system that was
built to keep them from succeeding.
[00:13:56]
How is that?
[00:13:57]
If you include them in that system,
it's still that system.
[00:14:00]
So, yeah, they have to go deeper than just
bringing those people in or just even
[00:14:06]
saying they're going to listen to those
voices or go after that market,
[00:14:09]
whoever it may be,
it is truly about changing
[00:14:11]
the fundamentals
of how they're solving problems,
[00:14:16]
who they're
tapping to solve those problems and what
[00:14:20]
they're doing with those
solutions at the end.
[00:14:23]
And some companies are doing
better with it than others.
[00:14:27]
So people are allowing their leadership
kind of roles to change the look,
[00:14:34]
not just the look, but how they function,
which I think is the linchpin there is.
[00:14:40]
The functionality has to change.
[00:14:42]
You can't just listen to the voices if you
[00:14:44]
collect all that data
and you do nothing, was it?
[00:14:46]
It's pointless.
[00:14:48]
So changing and giving leaders or made
[00:14:53]
and I'm a huge advocate of creating
leaders, whether or not they've got
[00:14:56]
the title, allowing them to have
agency and to feel that they have some
[00:15:05]
agency to actually make change
[00:15:06]
and to discuss things with stakeholders
and genuinely make change to internal
[00:15:12]
processes that will affect
their end products.
[00:15:16]
It doesn't matter if
you just bring them in.
[00:15:18]
If you don't change how you allow
them to work, it will come to naught.
[00:15:22]
So I, I do a lot of work
with culture, right.
[00:15:26]
With organizational culture
and change organizational culture.
[00:15:29]
And I love what you're talking about
[00:15:30]
because this is I mean, this is
why I have a podcast on leading
[00:15:36]
thing, because so often
the culture piece is a checkpoint
[00:15:42]
right in a box like, oh,
[00:15:44]
you know, we have words on the wall
and a ping pong table and we do events.
[00:15:48]
We have great culture.
[00:15:50]
It's like, how do you guys actually
operate and how are you who like,
[00:15:55]
what are the rules around what
listen, I, I feel and rules.
[00:15:58]
But,
you know, I fully appreciate
[00:16:01]
that there are some things that someone
else needs to make a decision around.
[00:16:06]
I get that.
[00:16:08]
But inside of every rule,
[00:16:09]
there's also the opportunity for people
to make decisions and take ownership.
[00:16:13]
So what how are you explaining
[00:16:15]
that and what does that look like
and how does this all function together?
[00:16:17]
And what is this what is the sandbox
[00:16:19]
that we are all playing
in and what does that mean?
[00:16:22]
And it's and it's really
interesting because
[00:16:27]
I am curious with with you what you're
seeing, not only the work that you're
[00:16:32]
doing, but we are seeing your
experiences are more companies.
[00:16:36]
Really starting to think that way,
[00:16:38]
or is it industry specific,
because I'd imagine and I'm so comfortable
[00:16:42]
being wrong,
but I'd imagine in San Francisco
[00:16:46]
there are a lot of Silicone Valley startups
that they're more mindful of the realities
[00:16:51]
of that than maybe other
parts of the country.
[00:16:55]
That is really interesting.
[00:16:57]
I deal with people in a lot of different
markets and in different fields.
[00:17:02]
And I would say
[00:17:03]
it's really interesting because New York,
which you think of as this like
[00:17:09]
innovative outlook, they are
genuinely the most traditional.
[00:17:13]
My clients who are in New York are stuck
[00:17:16]
in these old old patterns, especially
if they work in any sort of media.
[00:17:21]
They are stuck in these just entrenched.
[00:17:25]
Oh, it's like the guys who run
[00:17:27]
the railroad started these media
companies, right, and they still function
[00:17:30]
that way, which boggles my mind because
I do approach it very much from this.
[00:17:36]
I'm in the land of disruption
[00:17:38]
and innovation, which a lot of times is
lip service, not try to pretend it's not.
[00:17:42]
But I do find where people don't give
[00:17:44]
enough credit is to like
the Chicagos and the Austins.
[00:17:49]
And the Iowas, the whole state,
very, very different ways of thinking
[00:17:54]
and being, but a lot of amazing
ideas and a lot of just
[00:18:00]
normalcy of difference of opinion.
[00:18:04]
Yeah, I never think difference
of opinion is a bad thing.
[00:18:10]
I wouldn't say it's field specific,
[00:18:12]
but location definitely has an effect
and Canada is just as big as the US.
[00:18:16]
There's like a million ways to do
anything in both of our locations, but.
[00:18:21]
Yeah, I think there are very stereotypes
that work and don't work and a lot
[00:18:26]
of times work against what you think you
might be able to do in a certain place.
[00:18:29]
But I want to hope that it's changing.
[00:18:33]
I want to I really do want
to hope that I see that.
[00:18:36]
I do see it in certain places.
[00:18:38]
I've got a couple of clients who
[00:18:40]
are there in other fields other
than tech here in the Bay Area.
[00:18:43]
And they see a lot of the same issues.
[00:18:46]
They see a lot of, oh, well,
they need quote unquote, diversity hires.
[00:18:49]
And then these poor hires
are not set up for success.
[00:18:51]
And I now they're just sort of plunked
[00:18:54]
in and then expected to do their job as
well as, oh, here, educate everyone else
[00:18:59]
on how to deal with you
appropriately, quote unquote.
[00:19:02]
It's so unfair in such a blatant way
[00:19:07]
that I don't know how it continues
to exist because then it affects their job
[00:19:10]
performance, obviously,
because I test them for two jobs.
[00:19:13]
You're underpaying them for one.
[00:19:15]
So.
[00:19:18]
Well, I see companies across the board
[00:19:21]
in all fields and all
regions making overtures.
[00:19:24]
I think it's pretty obvious we know
there's so much work left to do.
[00:19:30]
That's why I think locations like Atlanta
are amazing,
[00:19:33]
where so many black entrepreneurs have
just opted out of the white run system.
[00:19:37]
OK, you don't want to fund my project.
Cool.
[00:19:39]
I will take the money it will generate
elsewhere and have really built this
[00:19:43]
amazing supportive network
which should have existed
[00:19:49]
that they shouldn't have
had to create on their own.
[00:19:51]
But they did.
[00:19:52]
And they are out there,
some tech companies.
[00:19:55]
Sure.
[00:19:55]
But there's also fashion companies and
media and everything going on.
[00:19:59]
So it's we know it's doable,
[00:20:02]
but clearly the system is
just broken to get there, so.
[00:20:06]
It's almost like the there's like I'm
going to use the term scrappiness
[00:20:11]
that comes from not being a major hub,
but allows you to think about things
[00:20:15]
differently and approach
things differently.
[00:20:16]
So it's and it's like
resiliency in humans, right.
[00:20:19]
Or grit or whatever.
[00:20:21]
Use the term scrappier.
[00:20:23]
But if you sometimes out of necessity,
more than anything,
[00:20:29]
you end up being the person that like
the entrepreneurs in Atlanta you're
[00:20:33]
talking about that are leading
the way for other people.
[00:20:38]
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
[00:20:41]
And I think, unfortunately,
that's really common.
[00:20:43]
And if you just look at kind of anything,
[00:20:46]
any market, any housing market where
an underrepresented community will go in
[00:20:51]
because it's the only place open to them,
because rents are cheap or
[00:20:56]
labor is less expensive or materials are
just more readily available,
[00:21:01]
then they turn it into something
amazing than the old guard comes in.
[00:21:05]
It's like, oh, look at that..cool...
[00:21:07]
Let's just get our hands on that and let's
buy that up and step that up and
[00:21:10]
then drive the people who created it
out, which I'm hoping against
[00:21:15]
hope.. I hope it's not against hope
[00:21:16]
so I'm hoping that these strongholds
are allowed to say stay strong.
[00:21:21]
And you see it overall in real estate.
[00:21:23]
You see it in business all the time.
[00:21:24]
This is not a new concept,
but I'm hoping now
[00:21:28]
that kind of localized powers have been
slightly dispersed and that I mean,
[00:21:34]
we've seen a huge fight here from people
just moving all over back across country
[00:21:38]
because there's a lot of people who were,
quote unquote, forced to live here to work
[00:21:41]
in the tech industry,
who didn't ever want to live here.
[00:21:44]
And now they've been able to move and take
their skills and their expertise and maybe
[00:21:47]
their culture and maybe their family
and go do something else somewhere else.
[00:21:51]
And I hope that chips away at the
armor of the old guard a little bit.
[00:21:55]
Yeah, I love that.
[00:21:57]
I love that you're seeing that.
[00:21:58]
I think that's a really I'm not surprised,
[00:22:01]
given the expense of the Bay Area and the
I know a lot of people that moved there,
[00:22:09]
not because they wanted to,
but because the job opportunities and it's
[00:22:11]
like it's great that they don't
have to be there anymore.
[00:22:15]
Yeah.
[00:22:15]
And it should have been
this way for a long time.
[00:22:17]
And a lot of us have been jockeying
for people to hire outside of the market.
[00:22:23]
There's no need in 2021
[00:22:25]
for you to have to sit next
to someone unless you're working
[00:22:28]
on a physical product with them
where they need their hands on it.
[00:22:32]
There is no reason for that anymore.
[00:22:35]
And hopefully now this will have forced
[00:22:38]
some change of thought
for some change in the system.
[00:22:41]
And now if you can afford a Chromebook,
[00:22:45]
something very inexpensive,
you can create something anywhere.
[00:22:48]
And you not that entrepreneurship
is for everyone.
[00:22:52]
Not that leadership is for everyone, but
[00:22:55]
the idea that it's doable is for everyone,
[00:22:59]
and so hopefully traditional corporate
structures will understand that they can
[00:23:03]
move outside of their
normal candidate funnel.
[00:23:06]
They can look out into other pools
[00:23:08]
of talent that just would not have
had a chance to be seen before.
[00:23:12]
And I think everyone
will be better for it.
[00:23:15]
It's an interesting challenge because
[00:23:18]
if I think about companies, you know,
even ones that I've worked with over the
[00:23:24]
a number of years now that have gone
remote or done some version of hybrid pre
[00:23:29]
pandemic and also out of necessity,
necessity in 2020,
[00:23:34]
the challenge has often been
not the going remote itself.
[00:23:38]
But how do you work
in a different environment?
[00:23:43]
How do you hire in a different scenario
[00:23:46]
how it's the it's the structures
that they have in place
[00:23:51]
that you can't just transfer
them to remote.
[00:23:53]
You can't just hire the same way
remotely that you do in person.
[00:23:58]
You know, candidates show up differently,
[00:24:02]
remote, like there's both from the company
and the individual perspective.
[00:24:06]
It's a different experience.
[00:24:08]
Absolutely.
[00:24:09]
And I do consulting with companies who are
[00:24:11]
really struggling to find and retain
hires because it's very expensive.
[00:24:15]
Right.
And once I pin them down on, OK,
[00:24:20]
this is what you say you want and what do
you actually want,
[00:24:23]
because those are 90 percent
of the time to very different things.
[00:24:27]
Then we do talk about what the system
[00:24:29]
looks like now in terms of hiring,
because I very early on when I started
[00:24:33]
consulting during the pandemic and in this
exact topic, I had come to say, OK,
[00:24:39]
we liked the candidates we were getting,
but we've already had two interviews
[00:24:42]
and we couldn't hire either of them
because they weren't wearing a suit,
[00:24:46]
which is they were so used to people
coming into their financial district
[00:24:49]
downtown office wearing a suit that they
could not even wrap their minds around
[00:24:54]
the fact that it would been a little
strange for someone to be sitting
[00:24:57]
on their couch with their zoom set up
in a suit and they weren't even willing
[00:25:02]
to to look past that,
whereas the candidate thought it would
[00:25:04]
have been much more appropriate to be
slightly casual or casually dressed.
[00:25:10]
Right.
[00:25:10]
They were doing what they felt was
something as simple as just what
[00:25:12]
a candidate is wearing versus
much of the old guard.
[00:25:16]
I was working with a company who even
though in California,
[00:25:19]
we've been on one of the strictest
lockdowns anywhere we
[00:25:22]
like on house arrest until today,
you could not leave your home.
[00:25:26]
I had a company where the owner, CEO,
[00:25:29]
refused to hire anyone that he
had not met in person.
[00:25:32]
And it's not a very large company,
about 40 ish people.
[00:25:35]
So not a crazy expectation.
But right now,
[00:25:38]
absolutely absurd expectation now that he
he was expected to fly candidates across
[00:25:43]
the country and have them like,
go sit out on a park bench to meet him.
[00:25:47]
And he could not just he wasn't
trying to be intentionally obtuse.
[00:25:52]
He just in a very real way,
[00:25:54]
could not wrap his head around
the fact that that could not happen.
[00:25:58]
And, B, that he needed to figure out
a different way for him to get
[00:26:02]
the chemistry, understanding that he was
looking for,
[00:26:06]
just with meeting someone over video and
looking at different types of candidates.
[00:26:11]
Because one of the reasons I was called
[00:26:12]
in is that they only had
one employee of color.
[00:26:16]
And of course, he was male.
[00:26:17]
So it was like we're still working on it.
[00:26:21]
It is still a struggle
for him to understand.
[00:26:24]
And there unfortunately,
[00:26:25]
at a certain level,
there isn't anything you can do to make
[00:26:28]
the stakeholders who have the overhead
understand there's nothing you can do.
[00:26:33]
They you can get them to understand
that there are limitations in place
[00:26:37]
and how to best work
within those limitations.
[00:26:39]
And for certain
[00:26:41]
hiring managers at certain levels,
it is going to be presenting them.
[00:26:45]
You know, if you are the hiring manager or
[00:26:47]
HR recruiter,
presenting them with it,
[00:26:49]
as close as an experience as you can
possibly get to what they're used
[00:26:53]
to and coaching the candidate,
that that's what they're used to seeing.
[00:26:57]
I think fully so many millennials
are in hiring roles at this point.
[00:27:03]
That isn't quite as big
of a problem for them.
[00:27:08]
They're used to doing so much via the
Internet that it's they're tired of it.
[00:27:12]
They're bored with it.
They wish it was different,
[00:27:14]
but they know how to work within its
confines in a much different way.
[00:27:19]
So I find that to be much
more of a generational issue.
[00:27:23]
And unfortunately,
[00:27:24]
there is a certain point where there isn't
a lot you can do other than,
[00:27:27]
you know, getting them to understand,
presenting the best experience you can.
[00:27:30]
But I find millennials make
great hiring managers right now.
[00:27:35]
I feel if you don't,
[00:27:37]
it'd be strange if you didn't have
[00:27:39]
a hiring team that was packed
with them at this point.
[00:27:42]
But if you didn't ask them for their
expertise, ask them how they handle it.
[00:27:46]
Use the people that you have to make
the experience as good as you can for both
[00:27:51]
you, your team and your candidates
if you want the best candidates.
[00:27:55]
It's not just about
[00:27:57]
the pattern that they've taken to get
[00:27:59]
there, but it's about
setting them up for success.
[00:28:01]
From the interview forward.
[00:28:04]
I love that
[00:28:06]
I'm going to change tack
a little bit and I want to ask.
[00:28:10]
So inside of everything that you're saying
[00:28:13]
and inside of your experience, I hear
you deal with leaders a lot, right?
[00:28:19]
This is whether they're company owners,
[00:28:22]
whether they're leaders in organizations,
whether they're individual candidates.
[00:28:26]
I hear a lot of you dealing with leaders.
[00:28:28]
And I'm wondering from your perspective
[00:28:30]
and experience, what makes
a leader successful?
[00:28:36]
These days, with all of the
constant nonstop change that we are,
[00:28:43]
challenges, the unknown that
we're all dealing with?
[00:28:46]
What what do you think makes
the most successful these days?
[00:28:50]
I find it the most successful leader,
no matter what their title.
[00:28:54]
If they are crystal clear on the outcome
that they're working towards,
[00:28:59]
they can just make it work with changes,
with reversals, with complete upheavals,
[00:29:06]
it's being crystal clear on what
the outcome is and getting the team
[00:29:10]
to agree that that's what
they're all working towards.
[00:29:13]
And once they've got that and they've got
everyone in agreement there,
[00:29:17]
that it doesn't matter what little changes
come up in between or personality
[00:29:22]
conflicts, you're all on the same
team working towards the same goal.
[00:29:26]
And everyone is working towards that goal.
[00:29:28]
And it is under stood.
[00:29:30]
And once they can clearly define that,
[00:29:33]
whether it's something really simple,
an agenda for a meeting versus taking
[00:29:38]
a new product from ideation to launch,
if they know crystal clear what that is
[00:29:43]
and they can communicate
that they will do great.
[00:29:46]
I love that you said an agenda
for a meeting because I was just
[00:29:51]
thinking.How many leaders do I know that,
[00:29:54]
that
[00:29:54]
is not a thing.
[00:29:57]
And it's very literally
everyone's pet peeve,
[00:30:02]
not having one
[00:30:04]
or having a very clear one that everyone
knows what they're expected and then just
[00:30:08]
obliterating it and going
in with something out of left field.
[00:30:13]
It just throws everyone off
[00:30:16]
they've been focused
on this discussion.
[00:30:19]
Also, they've got to make
it stop and reverse it.
[00:30:21]
And it just takes so much
more time to refocus.
[00:30:24]
It is so much more detrimental
than just not having the meeting.
[00:30:30]
Yep.
Yep.
[00:30:31]
I think it is a pet peeve of mine how we
tend to do meetings and how how everyone
[00:30:41]
has problems with them and thinks they can do
[00:30:43]
better, and yet no one actually
does better. Ever.
[00:30:47]
Yeah, it's
[00:30:49]
it's shocking because you're right,
everyone thinks they can do better.
[00:30:53]
I even worked at an agency once that had
a list of rules for meetings that they
[00:30:57]
eliminated them and they put them on every
table, every surface where a meeting could
[00:31:01]
be held around and everyone
was having a clear set agenda.
[00:31:05]
And on time and simple rules,
we're all in the same sandbox.
[00:31:10]
Let's share the tonka truck.
[00:31:11]
No, no one could follow them.
[00:31:13]
It's it is shocking.
[00:31:16]
Yeah, it's
[00:31:18]
and I will say this.
[00:31:20]
I don't know if this is if you would if
this has been your experience,
[00:31:23]
but I will say that if nothing else, this
stay at home orders the quarantining.
[00:31:30]
The people working from home has
[00:31:32]
highlighted just how bad most companies,
how poorly most companies run meetings.
[00:31:39]
Oh, absolutely.
And it's it's interesting cause there's
[00:31:42]
a lot of stories,
anecdotes that I use in my work.
[00:31:45]
When I the moment I knew I needed to leave
[00:31:47]
corporate world myself and work outside
of it is when I found myself in a meeting
[00:31:52]
about a meeting, about
a button on a website.
[00:31:58]
Yeah, yeah,
[00:32:01]
and if I remember correctly,
[00:32:03]
it was like an hour and a half long
meeting and it was about a meeting.
[00:32:06]
Yeah, and it was one of those hours.
[00:32:07]
This isn't how humans are meant to spend.
[00:32:14]
Yeah, but I, I
[00:32:18]
yeah.
[00:32:19]
Wow.
[00:32:21]
That might be that might be one of those
[00:32:23]
reading stories I'm going
to tell people about.
[00:32:26]
I would be like, let me tell you a story
[00:32:28]
about a meeting about her about
a button on a website that happened.
[00:32:32]
Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:32:35]
And I think hopefully this is one
[00:32:37]
of the good things because people realize
you don't all have to be in a room
[00:32:41]
going through all of the nuts
and bolts and things.
[00:32:44]
Generally, those meetings were just super,
[00:32:46]
super top level, barely actually
getting into the process of anything.
[00:32:50]
Anyway, great.
[00:32:51]
Send a quick video explaining what
you need from your entire team.
[00:32:54]
Shoot them the video done right.
[00:32:56]
There's new ways to do things
and it can be done efficiently,
[00:33:01]
cleaner, quicker, more engaging.
[00:33:03]
People can actually get
the information they need.
[00:33:06]
It's shocking what technology
can do these days.
[00:33:10]
Very true.
[00:33:12]
So I.
[00:33:15]
I'm going to kind of.
[00:33:18]
Get to wrap this up.
[00:33:19]
I want to be respectful of your time,
and I'm when you hear the term or the idea
[00:33:23]
leading through crisis, what does
that what does that mean to you?
[00:33:27]
What comes up for you inside of that
[00:33:30]
leading through crisis
to me is about the people.
[00:33:34]
It's I think it to truly lead that it's
[00:33:38]
not about the company
objectives in terms of profit.
[00:33:41]
I think to leave it
go back to the what that word means.
[00:33:45]
You're leading people, right?
[00:33:47]
Go back to your people if you can make
sure that you are leading your people
[00:33:51]
and caring for them and taking care
of their their needs in terms of your
[00:33:56]
work, as well as just
them as human beings.
[00:34:00]
And you have that empathy.
[00:34:03]
There will be nothing that you can't do
[00:34:05]
at the corporate level because they will
be behind you because they know that you
[00:34:07]
genuinely care about them as people,
not just cogs in your system,
[00:34:13]
but you have to start with remembering
that you're leading people.
[00:34:20]
I love that I think that is a really
[00:34:22]
powerful place to wrap this up,
because I don't think there's anything
[00:34:26]
more important for leaders to remember
than they're leading people.
[00:34:31]
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
[00:34:33]
Thank you for chatting with me EB.
[00:34:35]
It's been really lovely.
[00:34:37]
We will find EB online
at EBSanders.com
[00:34:41]
she has a course career change
[00:34:43]
with confidence that you can find
more information about there.
[00:34:45]
All the links will be
in the show notes for this.
[00:34:49]
I really appreciate you taking the time
to come and chat with me today.
[00:34:52]
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been so great.
[00:34:55]
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
[00:34:57]
Thanks for joining me today
on the leading through Crisis podcast.
[00:35:01]
If you enjoyed this conversation,
[00:35:03]
please take a minute to rate
and review us on your podcast app.
[00:35:06]
If you're interested in learning more
about any of our guests,
[00:35:09]
you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.