Leading Through Crisis with Céline Williams

Redefining Success on the Path to Fulfillment with EB Sanders

Episode Summary

We’re talking about success and fulfillment and how we rethink both concepts with my guest, EB Sanders. EB observed that 2020 provided an opportunity for many people to think about what they really want for their future: career, lifestyle, and beyond. It was a time to pause, take a step back, and do the evaluation work to really define what success is for them and why.

Episode Notes

The focus of this episode is really about navigating the changing systems and realities when it comes to how we work. EB Sanders shares her insights from her work with both individuals as well as organizations, and reflects on the opportunities (and challenges) that are in front of us. When we stop thinking about our career and success as linear and we start to embrace change, as uncomfortable as it might be, we open ourselves up to entirely new experiences and ways of doing things. EB shares her observations on how systems and processes are finally starting to change, the importance of location when it comes to innovation, and the challenges and opportunities that are part and parcel of remote hiring and remote work. 

EB Sanders is a career coach who helps creative types ditch their fears and make decisions with confidence so they can achieve the fulfillment they really want.

She went from college professor to recruiting & staffing specialist to career coach all in the name of helping people find their ‘Thing.’ Having gone through two major career changes herself, she came to realize that her Thing is helping people think bigger about how they want to show up in the world.

Today she is a sought-after coach and staffing consultant serving creative individuals, companies, and organizations. She believes that great leaders have extraordinary careers and her mission is to convince everyone that they don’t have to choose between happiness and success. 

Find out more about EB Sanders and her Career Change with Confidence program at: www.ebsanders.com

Connect with her

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ebsanders
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eb_sanders

Episode Transcription

[00:00:01]

I'm Céline Williams,

 

[00:00:02]

and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis

podcast, a conversation series exploring

 

[00:00:07]

resiliency and leadership

in challenging times.

 

[00:00:10]

Hi.

 

[00:00:10]

My guest today is EB Sanders,

who is a certified career coach

 

[00:00:15]

who teaches creative types how to find

their thing and design their career so

 

[00:00:19]

they can achieve the fulfillment

they really want.

 

[00:00:22]

Thank you for joining me today.

 

[00:00:24]

Thank you so much for having me Céline.

 

[00:00:26]

I'm really excited to talk about this

because I think that we were chatting

 

[00:00:29]

right before we hit record

because that's what we do

 

[00:00:32]

about.

 

[00:00:33]

I had this perception and conception that

things would be really busy with people

 

[00:00:39]

who have lost their jobs right

now and are transitioning.

 

[00:00:42]

And you were commenting that that's not

 

[00:00:43]

necessarily all of your

all of your people.

 

[00:00:46]

And I think that's a really interesting

place to start as we talk about leading

 

[00:00:50]

through change and crisis

and resiliency and all of that.

 

[00:00:53]

So I'd love to hear your perspective on.

 

[00:00:57]

This whole concept and idea and your

experience with it.  Absolutely.

 

[00:01:02]

So I my my main client base is people who are

looking to change their careers or to make

 

[00:01:08]

major changes in their career to create

the one that they really want it to be.

 

[00:01:12]

And when this pandemic hit

 

[00:01:15]

and in California, we've had one

of the strictest lockdowns of anybody.

 

[00:01:19]

Right.

 

[00:01:20]

I had to do the adjusting

along with anyone else but mine.

 

[00:01:23]

I was in a good place because I've been

 

[00:01:25]

working from home already

for several years.

 

[00:01:26]

I had all of that ready to go.

 

[00:01:28]

My client, my new clients at the very

beginning were people who are really

 

[00:01:32]

struggling just at the beginning

of how do I even do this?

 

[00:01:35]

And so I got a few new clients.

 

[00:01:37]

I'm just trying to get them settled

into how to be a leader from home and how

 

[00:01:40]

to work efficiently from home and how

to do the best that they could be.

 

[00:01:44]

But as we've gone on,

as this has just progressed and gotten

 

[00:01:47]

longer and longer,

I expected, like I think many did,

 

[00:01:51]

that my clients, like you said,

would have come from having lost their

 

[00:01:54]

jobs, having been laid off or

whatever the reason being.

 

[00:01:58]

But that hasn't been the case.

 

[00:02:00]

The bulk of my clients are just like

the rest of us who have had to take a step

 

[00:02:04]

back and re-evaluate what's truly

important to us, re-evaluate how we live

 

[00:02:09]

our lives and why we're doing

the work that we're doing.

 

[00:02:12]

And once they were forced to get off

of autopilot of get up, get on the train,

 

[00:02:17]

go to work, go to the meetings and just

doing it over and over once they had

 

[00:02:20]

to have the time to think it,

it was really forced on everybody.

 

[00:02:24]

My client base now is mostly people

 

[00:02:28]

who have during that reassessment,

realized that not only did they not like

 

[00:02:32]

what they were doing,

where they were doing it,

 

[00:02:34]

but they genuinely weren't fulfilled,

they were not happy, they weren't enjoying

 

[00:02:39]

doing the work that they

were doing at all.

 

[00:02:42]

And they felt sort of doubly lost because

 

[00:02:45]

not only did they that realization hit

them of they didn't know what they wanted

 

[00:02:49]

to do and they like what they were doing,

but they lost the routine.

 

[00:02:53]

They lost the structure of just how

 

[00:02:55]

to sort of function in a

regular workaday world.

 

[00:02:59]

So my client now are struggling with a lot

 

[00:03:03]

of the same things

my clients previously were.

 

[00:03:05]

But it's it's a much more layered

in a way than it had been earlier.

 

[00:03:11]

Earlier, I would have to explain to people

 

[00:03:12]

that these are things they should assess

and that they really need to dig deep

 

[00:03:15]

and understand how they want

to be and who they will be.

 

[00:03:18]

Now, that's what they're coming to me

 

[00:03:19]

with, is they've been

forced to sit in this work.

 

[00:03:22]

So it has been

 

[00:03:24]

surprising to me and also really great

 

[00:03:27]

to work with people who are coming

to me with this understanding already.

 

[00:03:30]

I think it's really interesting how,

you know, when a crisis

 

[00:03:36]

crisis, because it's like a global

everyone is experiencing this type crisis.

 

[00:03:40]

But it's really interesting

 

[00:03:42]

that in a situation like this,

it's the time when people.

 

[00:03:47]

Start to have those moments

of realization,

 

[00:03:51]

and I'm big on self leadership, right,

like knowing yourself, leading yourself,

 

[00:03:56]

having all that insight, they start,

not everyone, but a lot of people.

 

[00:04:00]

It's when they start doing that work

and it sounds like you're seeing a lot

 

[00:04:05]

of that and the people

that are coming to you.

 

[00:04:07]

Yeah, absolutely.

And,

 

[00:04:09]

you know, a lot of my client is prior

to and in the US,

 

[00:04:14]

we also have our political crisis

on top of our racial crisis on top of the pandemic.

 

[00:04:18]

It has really made people re-evaluate how

 

[00:04:21]

they're living their lives and what

they're doing with the money they're

 

[00:04:24]

making and how they are

acquiring that paycheck.

 

[00:04:27]

Who is signing those?

 

[00:04:29]

So it's it is this evaluation where

before, you know, you had your commute.

 

[00:04:33]

Right.

And that might have been your only time

 

[00:04:35]

of the day that you really had a little

bit of time in your head to sort

 

[00:04:38]

of prepare for your day and think about

you and yourself and what you were

 

[00:04:42]

planning, where now you don't

even have that for the most part.

 

[00:04:45]

So you are sort of in it

and in it all day.

 

[00:04:50]

There is no off.

There is no going to even if you have

 

[00:04:52]

a separate home office,

there's still very little separation.

 

[00:04:59]

We're very much living at work,

but also working at a very different way

 

[00:05:03]

and just spending all

of the time with our family.

 

[00:05:06]

Or if you are solo, you're spending

all of this time in your own head.

 

[00:05:10]

And it's it is just a time for everyone to

sit and think what they want to or not.

 

[00:05:15]

It's sort of being foisted upon us.

 

[00:05:17]

And a lot of people are inadvertently

doing this work, which is really helpful.

 

[00:05:24]

That can also be really scary,

especially for people who sort of have

 

[00:05:28]

just been following a definition

of success that have been placed before.

 

[00:05:31]

Then people have been climbing

the corporate ladder,

 

[00:05:33]

people who've been stepping

into leadership and C suite roles.

 

[00:05:37]

You know, those things were just always

sort of pre outlined and prescheduled.

 

[00:05:42]

And that was sort of you did

that because that's what you did.

 

[00:05:45]

And now people are really questioning if

that is even what they want and if it is

 

[00:05:51]

why they want it and how

they want to get it.

 

[00:05:54]

And well, yes, it's a it's

a reaction to a crisis.

 

[00:05:57]

I find a lot of ways it's

an opportunity to be really proactive.

 

[00:06:02]

For how we're going to be working

in the future, because I think it's pretty

 

[00:06:05]

obvious, we all know that we will return

to some sense of what it was like

 

[00:06:09]

previously, but the working world

will never be exactly the same.

 

[00:06:13]

It just can't be right.

 

[00:06:15]

So people really are being proactive

in a lot of that decision making

 

[00:06:19]

and redefining what their

version of success looks like

 

[00:06:24]

and which is really new for people.

 

[00:06:26]

I think they think a lot of people had

the idea that only the very,

 

[00:06:30]

very top echelon of corporate world could

define what that was for themselves.

 

[00:06:34]

And people realizing that now that not

only can, but they most likely should be

 

[00:06:38]

defining that for themselves now so

that they know what they're working

 

[00:06:41]

towards and why they're

working towards it.

 

[00:06:44]

So I'm really curious.

 

[00:06:47]

I and I'm making an assumption here.

 

[00:06:49]

You correct me.

I want to call it out.

 

[00:06:51]

And I'm assuming that that is part

 

[00:06:54]

of the work that you would normally do

with someone who is really helping them

 

[00:06:58]

figure out redefine success

for them, pre pandemic.

 

[00:07:02]

That was sort of a standard

piece of what you would do.

 

[00:07:05]

Oh, absolutely.

 

[00:07:06]

Absolutely.

 

[00:07:08]

But it was a difficult a lot

of times it was like pulling teeth.

 

[00:07:12]

I would get I would ask them what their

definition of success was and I would get

 

[00:07:15]

back basically like a mini mission

statement of whatever corporation people

 

[00:07:19]

working with, you know, a lot of,

especially because I'm

 

[00:07:22]

in the Silicone Valley and so

many of my clients are as well.

 

[00:07:25]

There's a lot of drinking

the Kool-Aid here.

 

[00:07:27]

We get indoctrinated into where the you

 

[00:07:30]

are and the culture that that breeds

the definition of success is, well,

 

[00:07:34]

obviously, you own a home is there and you

own a Tesla and you have a summer place or

 

[00:07:38]

a rental place in Tahoe and you're

making a certain monetary figure.

 

[00:07:41]

And of course, you've got

a nanny and two kids.

 

[00:07:43]

It's but that's one very

small version of success.

 

[00:07:49]

It's what and it's you know,

 

[00:07:50]

let's be honest, majority is a white

male traditional definition.

 

[00:07:56]

And people are now questioning

why that has to be.

 

[00:07:58]

Whereas before I had to lay it out as

 

[00:08:00]

an exercise and we would have to

do some actual homework.

 

[00:08:05]

Now, people are coming to me with having

 

[00:08:07]

these thoughts, and my job now is more

helping them organize those thoughts

 

[00:08:11]

rather than getting them to the point

where they're thinking about these things.

 

[00:08:15]

So, yeah, that is very new,

 

[00:08:17]

but it is always the core of my work is

not just helping them start to think about

 

[00:08:23]

what they truly want,

but how they want to do it.

 

[00:08:26]

Because you also may want the same types

 

[00:08:29]

of things, but you don't have to do

them in the same way at all anymore.

 

[00:08:34]

And I think that's been a really nice big

shift I've seen in the last five years.

 

[00:08:40]

This opening up of, oh, hey,

 

[00:08:42]

there may be other pathways,

there may be other ways to do things,

 

[00:08:45]

traditional education

and pieces of papers.

 

[00:08:47]

And third party proof that you have done

something that gets you to the next step

 

[00:08:51]

no longer holds the weight

that it used to.

 

[00:08:54]

And so I think while yes, it's

 

[00:08:57]

I think I will always have to do this work

with clients, I always have to help them

 

[00:09:00]

get to what that definition

is for themselves.

 

[00:09:04]

And how people are thinking

about it is different now.

 

[00:09:08]

So this is really interesting because

I was having a conversation with

 

[00:09:12]

someone earlier today who's I'm based

in Canada and they're Canadian and they

 

[00:09:17]

run a no longer start up,

quite well funded company.

 

[00:09:22]

And we were talking about

how the experience of

 

[00:09:28]

finding work before they started this

 

[00:09:31]

business in Canada,

looking for roles with an MBA

 

[00:09:35]

and with a lot of that social proof

and how challenging it was,

 

[00:09:39]

because if it wasn't a linear path from

the organization's standpoint,

 

[00:09:45]

they weren't interested in even

talking to this person.

 

[00:09:49]

And I wonder if because and I and I love,

 

[00:09:53]

by the way, that people that you encourage

people to think about things differently

 

[00:09:57]

and step out of that paradigm

and that people are coming to you now

 

[00:10:00]

stepped out of that paradigm

more than ever.

 

[00:10:03]

I think that's really important.

 

[00:10:04]

I'm curious if you're seeing

 

[00:10:07]

organizations responding to that or

leading that or stepping back or because

 

[00:10:13]

we were talking from a

Canadian perspective.

 

[00:10:14]

But I love your thought on that,

because I think that's a big piece of of

 

[00:10:19]

it's a really important part

of the change changing.

 

[00:10:24]

Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:10:25]

I mean, so I was a recruiter before I

 

[00:10:27]

became a career coach and I was always

an advocate for the non-linear.

 

[00:10:32]

I was always an advocate for the person

 

[00:10:34]

with the outside voice,

different experience,

 

[00:10:36]

a wider base of knowledge,

because it leads to more insight,

 

[00:10:40]

different language,

ways that you're always going to reach

 

[00:10:43]

the solution to a problem

in a different, better way.

 

[00:10:47]

I was always a huge proponent for that.

 

[00:10:49]

And in the US we have this sort

of narrative that we love the pull

 

[00:10:53]

yourself up by the bootstraps,

the outliers.

 

[00:10:55]

What's going to get things done? First

 

[00:10:57]

of all, physical impossibility to pull

yourself up by your bootstraps.

 

[00:11:01]

But

 

[00:11:02]

it is we have this narrative that we we

like the guy with the new strange idea.

 

[00:11:09]

But no, traditionally in the corporate

 

[00:11:11]

world, it has also been this linear path,

know, with the NBA, with all of that.

 

[00:11:17]

And I'm not I don't think

that will ever go away.

 

[00:11:20]

I really don't.

But I think now people are seeing.

 

[00:11:23]

That there is opportunity in the people

 

[00:11:26]

who didn't follow that path because

of the differences of ideas

 

[00:11:30]

and from a strictly money making

standpoint, which, let's be honest,

 

[00:11:34]

every decision made in the business is

a money making decision right, they're

 

[00:11:37]

realizing that when you reach other

audiences through problem solving in different

 

[00:11:41]

ways, which usually means not hiring

the person who's got on the linear

 

[00:11:45]

MBA path, you make more money because

you're reaching people where they're at.

 

[00:11:51]

And so I think it will and is changing.

 

[00:11:55]

And as we've seen now,

 

[00:11:57]

since all corporations have been forced to

finally put in the infrastructure that we

 

[00:12:01]

always knew was available,

that you don't have to have someone's butt

 

[00:12:04]

in a particular seat in a particular

location they now are on.

 

[00:12:09]

I'm already seeing it.

They're already opening up, you know,

 

[00:12:13]

talent pools in smaller locations where we

wouldn't have accepted them from before

 

[00:12:17]

because it's like, oh, well, they're not

you know, they're not white.

 

[00:12:20]

They didn't get the MBA.

 

[00:12:21]

They don't live in a major

metropolitan area.

 

[00:12:22]

Well, obviously, they're not a culture

fit for us that is already changing.

 

[00:12:27]

So.

 

[00:12:27]

Well, I'd like to say that the US

have a different view than that.

 

[00:12:31]

Can they sort of take I think we love

 

[00:12:33]

the story that we do,

but I don't think we really have.

 

[00:12:37]

But we are moving towards that.

 

[00:12:40]

And I think it's to say, yeah.

 

[00:12:42]

So I I appreciate your

perspective on that.

 

[00:12:45]

It's really it's interesting.

 

[00:12:48]

I think that I'm I love the work and

 

[00:12:54]

the idea of bringing in various lenses

and viewpoints

 

[00:12:59]

for exactly what you're saying,

which is the biggest thing to me is

 

[00:13:03]

the diversity of thought

and that diversity of of experience

 

[00:13:08]

and not just

the echo chamber of same sameness.

 

[00:13:15]

And so I think that there's a I think.

 

[00:13:19]

I think there's a big a real opportunity,

and what I hear inside of what you're

 

[00:13:23]

saying is that there's this real

opportunity to expand that out from what I

 

[00:13:27]

think a lot of companies do and what a lot

of people think of diversity, equity,

 

[00:13:31]

inclusion, whatever you want to call it,

like whatever your term for it is when

 

[00:13:34]

they think it is versus what it really is,

like a whole next level.

 

[00:13:40]

Oh, yeah.

 

[00:13:42]

It's yeah, a lot of corporations do this.

 

[00:13:45]

Oh, we're going to expand,

we're going to reach out.

 

[00:13:47]

Well, look, we've made

a few diversity hires.

 

[00:13:50]

Great.

 

[00:13:51]

You've brought them into a system that was

built to keep them from succeeding.

 

[00:13:56]

How is that?

 

[00:13:57]

If you include them in that system,

it's still that system.

 

[00:14:00]

So, yeah, they have to go deeper than just

bringing those people in or just even

 

[00:14:06]

saying they're going to listen to those

voices or go after that market,

 

[00:14:09]

whoever it may be,

it is truly about changing

 

[00:14:11]

the fundamentals

of how they're solving problems,

 

[00:14:16]

who they're

tapping to solve those problems and what

 

[00:14:20]

they're doing with those

solutions at the end.

 

[00:14:23]

And some companies are doing

better with it than others.

 

[00:14:27]

So people are allowing their leadership

kind of roles to change the look,

 

[00:14:34]

not just the look, but how they function,

which I think is the linchpin there is.

 

[00:14:40]

The functionality has to change.

 

[00:14:42]

You can't just listen to the voices if you

 

[00:14:44]

collect all that data

and you do nothing, was it?

 

[00:14:46]

It's pointless.

 

[00:14:48]

So changing and giving leaders or made

 

[00:14:53]

and I'm a huge advocate of creating

leaders, whether or not they've got

 

[00:14:56]

the title, allowing them to have

agency and to feel that they have some

 

[00:15:05]

agency to actually make change

 

[00:15:06]

and to discuss things with stakeholders

and genuinely make change to internal

 

[00:15:12]

processes that will affect

their end products.

 

[00:15:16]

It doesn't matter if

you just bring them in.

 

[00:15:18]

If you don't change how you allow

them to work, it will come to naught.

 

[00:15:22]

So I, I do a lot of work

with culture, right.

 

[00:15:26]

With organizational culture

and change organizational culture.

 

[00:15:29]

And I love what you're talking about

 

[00:15:30]

because this is I mean, this is

why I have a podcast on leading

 

[00:15:36]

thing, because so often

the culture piece is a checkpoint

 

[00:15:42]

right in a box like, oh,

 

[00:15:44]

you know, we have words on the wall

and a ping pong table and we do events.

 

[00:15:48]

We have great culture.

 

[00:15:50]

It's like, how do you guys actually

operate and how are you who like,

 

[00:15:55]

what are the rules around what

listen, I, I feel and rules.

 

[00:15:58]

But,

you know, I fully appreciate

 

[00:16:01]

that there are some things that someone

else needs to make a decision around.

 

[00:16:06]

I get that.

 

[00:16:08]

But inside of every rule,

 

[00:16:09]

there's also the opportunity for people

to make decisions and take ownership.

 

[00:16:13]

So what how are you explaining

 

[00:16:15]

that and what does that look like

and how does this all function together?

 

[00:16:17]

And what is this what is the sandbox

 

[00:16:19]

that we are all playing

in and what does that mean?

 

[00:16:22]

And it's and it's really

interesting because

 

[00:16:27]

I am curious with with you what you're

seeing, not only the work that you're

 

[00:16:32]

doing, but we are seeing your

experiences are more companies.

 

[00:16:36]

Really starting to think that way,

 

[00:16:38]

or is it industry specific,

because I'd imagine and I'm so comfortable

 

[00:16:42]

being wrong,

but I'd imagine in San Francisco

 

[00:16:46]

there are a lot of Silicone Valley startups

that they're more mindful of the realities

 

[00:16:51]

of that than maybe other

parts of the country.

 

[00:16:55]

That is really interesting.

 

[00:16:57]

I deal with people in a lot of different

markets and in different fields.

 

[00:17:02]

And I would say

 

[00:17:03]

it's really interesting because New York,

which you think of as this like

 

[00:17:09]

innovative outlook, they are

genuinely the most traditional.

 

[00:17:13]

My clients who are in New York are stuck

 

[00:17:16]

in these old old patterns, especially

if they work in any sort of media.

 

[00:17:21]

They are stuck in these just entrenched.

 

[00:17:25]

Oh, it's like the guys who run

 

[00:17:27]

the railroad started these media

companies, right, and they still function

 

[00:17:30]

that way, which boggles my mind because

I do approach it very much from this.

 

[00:17:36]

I'm in the land of disruption

 

[00:17:38]

and innovation, which a lot of times is

lip service, not try to pretend it's not.

 

[00:17:42]

But I do find where people don't give

 

[00:17:44]

enough credit is to like

the Chicagos and the Austins.

 

[00:17:49]

And the Iowas, the whole state,

very, very different ways of thinking

 

[00:17:54]

and being, but a lot of amazing

ideas and a lot of just

 

[00:18:00]

normalcy of difference of opinion.

 

[00:18:04]

Yeah, I never think difference

of opinion is a bad thing.

 

[00:18:10]

I wouldn't say it's field specific,

 

[00:18:12]

but location definitely has an effect

and Canada is just as big as the US.

 

[00:18:16]

There's like a million ways to do

anything in both of our locations, but.

 

[00:18:21]

Yeah, I think there are very stereotypes

that work and don't work and a lot

 

[00:18:26]

of times work against what you think you

might be able to do in a certain place.

 

[00:18:29]

But I want to hope that it's changing.

 

[00:18:33]

I want to I really do want

to hope that I see that.

 

[00:18:36]

I do see it in certain places.

 

[00:18:38]

I've got a couple of clients who

 

[00:18:40]

are there in other fields other

than tech here in the Bay Area.

 

[00:18:43]

And they see a lot of the same issues.

 

[00:18:46]

They see a lot of, oh, well,

they need quote unquote, diversity hires.

 

[00:18:49]

And then these poor hires

are not set up for success.

 

[00:18:51]

And I now they're just sort of plunked

 

[00:18:54]

in and then expected to do their job as

well as, oh, here, educate everyone else

 

[00:18:59]

on how to deal with you

appropriately, quote unquote.

 

[00:19:02]

It's so unfair in such a blatant way

 

[00:19:07]

that I don't know how it continues

to exist because then it affects their job

 

[00:19:10]

performance, obviously,

because I test them for two jobs.

 

[00:19:13]

You're underpaying them for one.

 

[00:19:15]

So.

 

[00:19:18]

Well, I see companies across the board

 

[00:19:21]

in all fields and all

regions making overtures.

 

[00:19:24]

I think it's pretty obvious we know

there's so much work left to do.

 

[00:19:30]

That's why I think locations like Atlanta

are amazing,

 

[00:19:33]

where so many black entrepreneurs have

just opted out of the white run system.

 

[00:19:37]

OK, you don't want to fund my project.

Cool.

 

[00:19:39]

I will take the money it will generate

elsewhere and have really built this

 

[00:19:43]

amazing supportive network

which should have existed

 

[00:19:49]

that they shouldn't have

had to create on their own.

 

[00:19:51]

But they did.

 

[00:19:52]

And they are out there,

some tech companies.

 

[00:19:55]

Sure.

 

[00:19:55]

But there's also fashion companies and

media and everything going on.

 

[00:19:59]

So it's we know it's doable,

 

[00:20:02]

but clearly the system is

just broken to get there, so.

 

[00:20:06]

It's almost like the there's like I'm

going to use the term scrappiness

 

[00:20:11]

that comes from not being a major hub,

but allows you to think about things

 

[00:20:15]

differently and approach

things differently.

 

[00:20:16]

So it's and it's like

resiliency in humans, right.

 

[00:20:19]

Or grit or whatever.

 

[00:20:21]

Use the term scrappier.

 

[00:20:23]

But if you sometimes out of necessity,

more than anything,

 

[00:20:29]

you end up being the person that like

the entrepreneurs in Atlanta you're

 

[00:20:33]

talking about that are leading

the way for other people.

 

[00:20:38]

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

 

[00:20:41]

And I think, unfortunately,

that's really common.

 

[00:20:43]

And if you just look at kind of anything,

 

[00:20:46]

any market, any housing market where

an underrepresented community will go in

 

[00:20:51]

because it's the only place open to them,

because rents are cheap or

 

[00:20:56]

labor is less expensive or materials are

just more readily available,

 

[00:21:01]

then they turn it into something

amazing than the old guard comes in.

 

[00:21:05]

It's like, oh, look at that..cool...

 

[00:21:07]

Let's just get our hands on that and let's

buy that up and step that up and

 

[00:21:10]

then drive the people who created it

out, which I'm hoping against

 

[00:21:15]

hope.. I hope it's not against hope

 

[00:21:16]

so I'm hoping that these strongholds

are allowed to say stay strong.

 

[00:21:21]

And you see it overall in real estate.

 

[00:21:23]

You see it in business all the time.

 

[00:21:24]

This is not a new concept,

but I'm hoping now

 

[00:21:28]

that kind of localized powers have been

slightly dispersed and that I mean,

 

[00:21:34]

we've seen a huge fight here from people

just moving all over back across country

 

[00:21:38]

because there's a lot of people who were,

quote unquote, forced to live here to work

 

[00:21:41]

in the tech industry,

who didn't ever want to live here.

 

[00:21:44]

And now they've been able to move and take

their skills and their expertise and maybe

 

[00:21:47]

their culture and maybe their family

and go do something else somewhere else.

 

[00:21:51]

And I hope that chips away at the

armor of the old guard a little bit.

 

[00:21:55]

Yeah, I love that.

 

[00:21:57]

I love that you're seeing that.

 

[00:21:58]

I think that's a really I'm not surprised,

 

[00:22:01]

given the expense of the Bay Area and the

I know a lot of people that moved there,

 

[00:22:09]

not because they wanted to,

but because the job opportunities and it's

 

[00:22:11]

like it's great that they don't

have to be there anymore.

 

[00:22:15]

Yeah.

 

[00:22:15]

And it should have been

this way for a long time.

 

[00:22:17]

And a lot of us have been jockeying

for people to hire outside of the market.

 

[00:22:23]

There's no need in 2021

 

[00:22:25]

for you to have to sit next

to someone unless you're working

 

[00:22:28]

on a physical product with them

where they need their hands on it.

 

[00:22:32]

There is no reason for that anymore.

 

[00:22:35]

And hopefully now this will have forced

 

[00:22:38]

some change of thought

for some change in the system.

 

[00:22:41]

And now if you can afford a Chromebook,

 

[00:22:45]

something very inexpensive,

you can create something anywhere.

 

[00:22:48]

And you not that entrepreneurship

is for everyone.

 

[00:22:52]

Not that leadership is for everyone, but

 

[00:22:55]

the idea that it's doable is for everyone,

 

[00:22:59]

and so hopefully traditional corporate

structures will understand that they can

 

[00:23:03]

move outside of their

normal candidate funnel.

 

[00:23:06]

They can look out into other pools

 

[00:23:08]

of talent that just would not have

had a chance to be seen before.

 

[00:23:12]

And I think everyone

will be better for it.

 

[00:23:15]

It's an interesting challenge because

 

[00:23:18]

if I think about companies, you know,

even ones that I've worked with over the

 

[00:23:24]

a number of years now that have gone

remote or done some version of hybrid pre

 

[00:23:29]

pandemic and also out of necessity,

necessity in 2020,

 

[00:23:34]

the challenge has often been

not the going remote itself.

 

[00:23:38]

But how do you work

in a different environment?

 

[00:23:43]

How do you hire in a different scenario

 

[00:23:46]

how it's the it's the structures

that they have in place

 

[00:23:51]

that you can't just transfer

them to remote.

 

[00:23:53]

You can't just hire the same way

remotely that you do in person.

 

[00:23:58]

You know, candidates show up differently,

 

[00:24:02]

remote, like there's both from the company

and the individual perspective.

 

[00:24:06]

It's a different experience.

 

[00:24:08]

Absolutely.

 

[00:24:09]

And I do consulting with companies who are

 

[00:24:11]

really struggling to find and retain

hires because it's very expensive.

 

[00:24:15]

Right.

And once I pin them down on, OK,

 

[00:24:20]

this is what you say you want and what do

you actually want,

 

[00:24:23]

because those are 90 percent

of the time to very different things.

 

[00:24:27]

Then we do talk about what the system

 

[00:24:29]

looks like now in terms of hiring,

because I very early on when I started

 

[00:24:33]

consulting during the pandemic and in this

exact topic, I had come to say, OK,

 

[00:24:39]

we liked the candidates we were getting,

but we've already had two interviews

 

[00:24:42]

and we couldn't hire either of them

because they weren't wearing a suit,

 

[00:24:46]

which is they were so used to people

coming into their financial district

 

[00:24:49]

downtown office wearing a suit that they

could not even wrap their minds around

 

[00:24:54]

the fact that it would been a little

strange for someone to be sitting

 

[00:24:57]

on their couch with their zoom set up

in a suit and they weren't even willing

 

[00:25:02]

to to look past that,

whereas the candidate thought it would

 

[00:25:04]

have been much more appropriate to be

slightly casual or casually dressed.

 

[00:25:10]

Right.

 

[00:25:10]

They were doing what they felt was

something as simple as just what

 

[00:25:12]

a candidate is wearing versus

much of the old guard.

 

[00:25:16]

I was working with a company who even

though in California,

 

[00:25:19]

we've been on one of the strictest

lockdowns anywhere we

 

[00:25:22]

like on house arrest until today,

you could not leave your home.

 

[00:25:26]

I had a company where the owner, CEO,

 

[00:25:29]

refused to hire anyone that he

had not met in person.

 

[00:25:32]

And it's not a very large company,

about 40 ish people.

 

[00:25:35]

So not a crazy expectation.

But right now,

 

[00:25:38]

absolutely absurd expectation now that he

he was expected to fly candidates across

 

[00:25:43]

the country and have them like,

go sit out on a park bench to meet him.

 

[00:25:47]

And he could not just he wasn't

trying to be intentionally obtuse.

 

[00:25:52]

He just in a very real way,

 

[00:25:54]

could not wrap his head around

the fact that that could not happen.

 

[00:25:58]

And, B, that he needed to figure out

a different way for him to get

 

[00:26:02]

the chemistry, understanding that he was

looking for,

 

[00:26:06]

just with meeting someone over video and

looking at different types of candidates.

 

[00:26:11]

Because one of the reasons I was called

 

[00:26:12]

in is that they only had

one employee of color.

 

[00:26:16]

And of course, he was male.

 

[00:26:17]

So it was like we're still working on it.

 

[00:26:21]

It is still a struggle

for him to understand.

 

[00:26:24]

And there unfortunately,

 

[00:26:25]

at a certain level,

there isn't anything you can do to make

 

[00:26:28]

the stakeholders who have the overhead

understand there's nothing you can do.

 

[00:26:33]

They you can get them to understand

that there are limitations in place

 

[00:26:37]

and how to best work

within those limitations.

 

[00:26:39]

And for certain

 

[00:26:41]

hiring managers at certain levels,

it is going to be presenting them.

 

[00:26:45]

You know, if you are the hiring manager or

 

[00:26:47]

HR recruiter,

presenting them with it,

 

[00:26:49]

as close as an experience as you can

possibly get to what they're used

 

[00:26:53]

to and coaching the candidate,

that that's what they're used to seeing.

 

[00:26:57]

I think fully so many millennials

are in hiring roles at this point.

 

[00:27:03]

That isn't quite as big

of a problem for them.

 

[00:27:08]

They're used to doing so much via the

Internet that it's they're tired of it.

 

[00:27:12]

They're bored with it.

They wish it was different,

 

[00:27:14]

but they know how to work within its

confines in a much different way.

 

[00:27:19]

So I find that to be much

more of a generational issue.

 

[00:27:23]

And unfortunately,

 

[00:27:24]

there is a certain point where there isn't

a lot you can do other than,

 

[00:27:27]

you know, getting them to understand,

presenting the best experience you can.

 

[00:27:30]

But I find millennials make

great hiring managers right now.

 

[00:27:35]

I feel if you don't,

 

[00:27:37]

it'd be strange if you didn't have

 

[00:27:39]

a hiring team that was packed

with them at this point.

 

[00:27:42]

But if you didn't ask them for their

expertise, ask them how they handle it.

 

[00:27:46]

Use the people that you have to make

the experience as good as you can for both

 

[00:27:51]

you, your team and your candidates

if you want the best candidates.

 

[00:27:55]

It's not just about

 

[00:27:57]

the pattern that they've taken to get

 

[00:27:59]

there, but it's about

setting them up for success.

 

[00:28:01]

From the interview forward.

 

[00:28:04]

I love that

 

[00:28:06]

I'm going to change tack

a little bit and I want to ask.

 

[00:28:10]

So inside of everything that you're saying

 

[00:28:13]

and inside of your experience, I hear

you deal with leaders a lot, right?

 

[00:28:19]

This is whether they're company owners,

 

[00:28:22]

whether they're leaders in organizations,

whether they're individual candidates.

 

[00:28:26]

I hear a lot of you dealing with leaders.

 

[00:28:28]

And I'm wondering from your perspective

 

[00:28:30]

and experience, what makes

a leader successful?

 

[00:28:36]

These days, with all of the

constant nonstop change that we are,

 

[00:28:43]

challenges, the unknown that

we're all dealing with?

 

[00:28:46]

What what do you think makes

the most successful these days?

 

[00:28:50]

I find it the most successful leader,

no matter what their title.

 

[00:28:54]

If they are crystal clear on the outcome

that they're working towards,

 

[00:28:59]

they can just make it work with changes,

with reversals, with complete upheavals,

 

[00:29:06]

it's being crystal clear on what

the outcome is and getting the team

 

[00:29:10]

to agree that that's what

they're all working towards.

 

[00:29:13]

And once they've got that and they've got

everyone in agreement there,

 

[00:29:17]

that it doesn't matter what little changes

come up in between or personality

 

[00:29:22]

conflicts, you're all on the same

team working towards the same goal.

 

[00:29:26]

And everyone is working towards that goal.

 

[00:29:28]

And it is under stood.

 

[00:29:30]

And once they can clearly define that,

 

[00:29:33]

whether it's something really simple,

an agenda for a meeting versus taking

 

[00:29:38]

a new product from ideation to launch,

if they know crystal clear what that is

 

[00:29:43]

and they can communicate

that they will do great.

 

[00:29:46]

I love that you said an agenda

for a meeting because I was just

 

[00:29:51]

thinking.How many leaders do I know that,

 

[00:29:54]

that

 

[00:29:54]

is not a thing.

 

[00:29:57]

And it's very literally

everyone's pet peeve,

 

[00:30:02]

not having one

 

[00:30:04]

or having a very clear one that everyone

knows what they're expected and then just

 

[00:30:08]

obliterating it and going

in with something out of left field.

 

[00:30:13]

It just throws everyone off

 

[00:30:16]

they've been focused

on this discussion.

 

[00:30:19]

Also, they've got to make

it stop and reverse it.

 

[00:30:21]

And it just takes so much

more time to refocus.

 

[00:30:24]

It is so much more detrimental

than just not having the meeting.

 

[00:30:30]

Yep.

Yep.

 

[00:30:31]

I think it is a pet peeve of mine how we

tend to do meetings and how how everyone

 

[00:30:41]

has problems with them and thinks they can do

 

[00:30:43]

better, and yet no one actually

does better. Ever.

 

[00:30:47]

Yeah, it's

 

[00:30:49]

it's shocking because you're right,

everyone thinks they can do better.

 

[00:30:53]

I even worked at an agency once that had

a list of rules for meetings that they

 

[00:30:57]

eliminated them and they put them on every

table, every surface where a meeting could

 

[00:31:01]

be held around and everyone

was having a clear set agenda.

 

[00:31:05]

And on time and simple rules,

we're all in the same sandbox.

 

[00:31:10]

Let's share the tonka truck.

 

[00:31:11]

No, no one could follow them.

 

[00:31:13]

It's it is shocking.

 

[00:31:16]

Yeah, it's

 

[00:31:18]

and I will say this.

 

[00:31:20]

I don't know if this is if you would if

this has been your experience,

 

[00:31:23]

but I will say that if nothing else, this

stay at home orders the quarantining.

 

[00:31:30]

The people working from home has

 

[00:31:32]

highlighted just how bad most companies,

how poorly most companies run meetings.

 

[00:31:39]

Oh, absolutely.

And it's it's interesting cause there's

 

[00:31:42]

a lot of stories,

anecdotes that I use in my work.

 

[00:31:45]

When I the moment I knew I needed to leave

 

[00:31:47]

corporate world myself and work outside

of it is when I found myself in a meeting

 

[00:31:52]

about a meeting, about

a button on a website.

 

[00:31:58]

Yeah, yeah,

 

[00:32:01]

and if I remember correctly,

 

[00:32:03]

it was like an hour and a half long

meeting and it was about a meeting.

 

[00:32:06]

Yeah, and it was one of those hours.

 

[00:32:07]

This isn't how humans are meant to spend.

 

[00:32:14]

Yeah, but I, I

 

[00:32:18]

yeah.

 

[00:32:19]

Wow.

 

[00:32:21]

That might be that might be one of those

 

[00:32:23]

reading stories I'm going

to tell people about.

 

[00:32:26]

I would be like, let me tell you a story

 

[00:32:28]

about a meeting about her about

a button on a website that happened.

 

[00:32:32]

Yeah.

Yeah.

 

[00:32:35]

And I think hopefully this is one

 

[00:32:37]

of the good things because people realize

you don't all have to be in a room

 

[00:32:41]

going through all of the nuts

and bolts and things.

 

[00:32:44]

Generally, those meetings were just super,

 

[00:32:46]

super top level, barely actually

getting into the process of anything.

 

[00:32:50]

Anyway, great.

 

[00:32:51]

Send a quick video explaining what

you need from your entire team.

 

[00:32:54]

Shoot them the video done right.

 

[00:32:56]

There's new ways to do things

and it can be done efficiently,

 

[00:33:01]

cleaner, quicker, more engaging.

 

[00:33:03]

People can actually get

the information they need.

 

[00:33:06]

It's shocking what technology

can do these days.

 

[00:33:10]

Very true.

 

[00:33:12]

So I.

 

[00:33:15]

I'm going to kind of.

 

[00:33:18]

Get to wrap this up.

 

[00:33:19]

I want to be respectful of your time,

and I'm when you hear the term or the idea

 

[00:33:23]

leading through crisis, what does

that what does that mean to you?

 

[00:33:27]

What comes up for you inside of that

 

[00:33:30]

leading through crisis

to me is about the people.

 

[00:33:34]

It's I think it to truly lead that it's

 

[00:33:38]

not about the company

objectives in terms of profit.

 

[00:33:41]

I think to leave it

go back to the what that word means.

 

[00:33:45]

You're leading people, right?

 

[00:33:47]

Go back to your people if you can make

sure that you are leading your people

 

[00:33:51]

and caring for them and taking care

of their their needs in terms of your

 

[00:33:56]

work, as well as just

them as human beings.

 

[00:34:00]

And you have that empathy.

 

[00:34:03]

There will be nothing that you can't do

 

[00:34:05]

at the corporate level because they will

be behind you because they know that you

 

[00:34:07]

genuinely care about them as people,

not just cogs in your system,

 

[00:34:13]

but you have to start with remembering

that you're leading people.

 

[00:34:20]

I love that I think that is a really

 

[00:34:22]

powerful place to wrap this up,

because I don't think there's anything

 

[00:34:26]

more important for leaders to remember

than they're leading people.

 

[00:34:31]

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

 

[00:34:33]

Thank you for chatting with me EB.

 

[00:34:35]

It's been really lovely.

 

[00:34:37]

We will find EB online

at EBSanders.com

 

[00:34:41]

she has a course career change

 

[00:34:43]

with confidence that you can find

more information about there.

 

[00:34:45]

All the links will be

in the show notes for this.

 

[00:34:49]

I really appreciate you taking the time

to come and chat with me today.

 

[00:34:52]

Thank you so much for having me.

This has been so great.

 

[00:34:55]

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you.

 

[00:34:57]

Thanks for joining me today

on the leading through Crisis podcast.

 

[00:35:01]

If you enjoyed this conversation,

 

[00:35:03]

please take a minute to rate

and review us on your podcast app.

 

[00:35:06]

If you're interested in learning more

about any of our guests,

 

[00:35:09]

you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.

 

[00:00:01]

I'm Céline Williams,

 

[00:00:02]

and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis

podcast, a conversation series exploring

 

[00:00:07]

resiliency and leadership

in challenging times.

 

[00:00:10]

Hi.

 

[00:00:10]

My guest today is EB Sanders,

who is a certified career coach

 

[00:00:15]

who teaches creative types how to find

their thing and design their career so

 

[00:00:19]

they can achieve the fulfillment

they really want.

 

[00:00:22]

Thank you for joining me today.

 

[00:00:24]

Thank you so much for having me Céline.

 

[00:00:26]

I'm really excited to talk about this

because I think that we were chatting

 

[00:00:29]

right before we hit record

because that's what we do

 

[00:00:32]

about.

 

[00:00:33]

I had this perception and conception that

things would be really busy with people

 

[00:00:39]

who have lost their jobs right

now and are transitioning.

 

[00:00:42]

And you were commenting that that's not

 

[00:00:43]

necessarily all of your

all of your people.

 

[00:00:46]

And I think that's a really interesting

place to start as we talk about leading

 

[00:00:50]

through change and crisis

and resiliency and all of that.

 

[00:00:53]

So I'd love to hear your perspective on.

 

[00:00:57]

This whole concept and idea and your

experience with it.  Absolutely.

 

[00:01:02]

So I my my main client base is people who are

looking to change their careers or to make

 

[00:01:08]

major changes in their career to create

the one that they really want it to be.

 

[00:01:12]

And when this pandemic hit

 

[00:01:15]

and in California, we've had one

of the strictest lockdowns of anybody.

 

[00:01:19]

Right.

 

[00:01:20]

I had to do the adjusting

along with anyone else but mine.

 

[00:01:23]

I was in a good place because I've been

 

[00:01:25]

working from home already

for several years.

 

[00:01:26]

I had all of that ready to go.

 

[00:01:28]

My client, my new clients at the very

beginning were people who are really

 

[00:01:32]

struggling just at the beginning

of how do I even do this?

 

[00:01:35]

And so I got a few new clients.

 

[00:01:37]

I'm just trying to get them settled

into how to be a leader from home and how

 

[00:01:40]

to work efficiently from home and how

to do the best that they could be.

 

[00:01:44]

But as we've gone on,

as this has just progressed and gotten

 

[00:01:47]

longer and longer,

I expected, like I think many did,

 

[00:01:51]

that my clients, like you said,

would have come from having lost their

 

[00:01:54]

jobs, having been laid off or

whatever the reason being.

 

[00:01:58]

But that hasn't been the case.

 

[00:02:00]

The bulk of my clients are just like

the rest of us who have had to take a step

 

[00:02:04]

back and re-evaluate what's truly

important to us, re-evaluate how we live

 

[00:02:09]

our lives and why we're doing

the work that we're doing.

 

[00:02:12]

And once they were forced to get off

of autopilot of get up, get on the train,

 

[00:02:17]

go to work, go to the meetings and just

doing it over and over once they had

 

[00:02:20]

to have the time to think it,

it was really forced on everybody.

 

[00:02:24]

My client base now is mostly people

 

[00:02:28]

who have during that reassessment,

realized that not only did they not like

 

[00:02:32]

what they were doing,

where they were doing it,

 

[00:02:34]

but they genuinely weren't fulfilled,

they were not happy, they weren't enjoying

 

[00:02:39]

doing the work that they

were doing at all.

 

[00:02:42]

And they felt sort of doubly lost because

 

[00:02:45]

not only did they that realization hit

them of they didn't know what they wanted

 

[00:02:49]

to do and they like what they were doing,

but they lost the routine.

 

[00:02:53]

They lost the structure of just how

 

[00:02:55]

to sort of function in a

regular workaday world.

 

[00:02:59]

So my client now are struggling with a lot

 

[00:03:03]

of the same things

my clients previously were.

 

[00:03:05]

But it's it's a much more layered

in a way than it had been earlier.

 

[00:03:11]

Earlier, I would have to explain to people

 

[00:03:12]

that these are things they should assess

and that they really need to dig deep

 

[00:03:15]

and understand how they want

to be and who they will be.

 

[00:03:18]

Now, that's what they're coming to me

 

[00:03:19]

with, is they've been

forced to sit in this work.

 

[00:03:22]

So it has been

 

[00:03:24]

surprising to me and also really great

 

[00:03:27]

to work with people who are coming

to me with this understanding already.

 

[00:03:30]

I think it's really interesting how,

you know, when a crisis

 

[00:03:36]

crisis, because it's like a global

everyone is experiencing this type crisis.

 

[00:03:40]

But it's really interesting

 

[00:03:42]

that in a situation like this,

it's the time when people.

 

[00:03:47]

Start to have those moments

of realization,

 

[00:03:51]

and I'm big on self leadership, right,

like knowing yourself, leading yourself,

 

[00:03:56]

having all that insight, they start,

not everyone, but a lot of people.

 

[00:04:00]

It's when they start doing that work

and it sounds like you're seeing a lot

 

[00:04:05]

of that and the people

that are coming to you.

 

[00:04:07]

Yeah, absolutely.

And,

 

[00:04:09]

you know, a lot of my client is prior

to and in the US,

 

[00:04:14]

we also have our political crisis

on top of our racial crisis on top of the pandemic.

 

[00:04:18]

It has really made people re-evaluate how

 

[00:04:21]

they're living their lives and what

they're doing with the money they're

 

[00:04:24]

making and how they are

acquiring that paycheck.

 

[00:04:27]

Who is signing those?

 

[00:04:29]

So it's it is this evaluation where

before, you know, you had your commute.

 

[00:04:33]

Right.

And that might have been your only time

 

[00:04:35]

of the day that you really had a little

bit of time in your head to sort

 

[00:04:38]

of prepare for your day and think about

you and yourself and what you were

 

[00:04:42]

planning, where now you don't

even have that for the most part.

 

[00:04:45]

So you are sort of in it

and in it all day.

 

[00:04:50]

There is no off.

There is no going to even if you have

 

[00:04:52]

a separate home office,

there's still very little separation.

 

[00:04:59]

We're very much living at work,

but also working at a very different way

 

[00:05:03]

and just spending all

of the time with our family.

 

[00:05:06]

Or if you are solo, you're spending

all of this time in your own head.

 

[00:05:10]

And it's it is just a time for everyone to

sit and think what they want to or not.

 

[00:05:15]

It's sort of being foisted upon us.

 

[00:05:17]

And a lot of people are inadvertently

doing this work, which is really helpful.

 

[00:05:24]

That can also be really scary,

especially for people who sort of have

 

[00:05:28]

just been following a definition

of success that have been placed before.

 

[00:05:31]

Then people have been climbing

the corporate ladder,

 

[00:05:33]

people who've been stepping

into leadership and C suite roles.

 

[00:05:37]

You know, those things were just always

sort of pre outlined and prescheduled.

 

[00:05:42]

And that was sort of you did

that because that's what you did.

 

[00:05:45]

And now people are really questioning if

that is even what they want and if it is

 

[00:05:51]

why they want it and how

they want to get it.

 

[00:05:54]

And well, yes, it's a it's

a reaction to a crisis.

 

[00:05:57]

I find a lot of ways it's

an opportunity to be really proactive.

 

[00:06:02]

For how we're going to be working

in the future, because I think it's pretty

 

[00:06:05]

obvious, we all know that we will return

to some sense of what it was like

 

[00:06:09]

previously, but the working world

will never be exactly the same.

 

[00:06:13]

It just can't be right.

 

[00:06:15]

So people really are being proactive

in a lot of that decision making

 

[00:06:19]

and redefining what their

version of success looks like

 

[00:06:24]

and which is really new for people.

 

[00:06:26]

I think they think a lot of people had

the idea that only the very,

 

[00:06:30]

very top echelon of corporate world could

define what that was for themselves.

 

[00:06:34]

And people realizing that now that not

only can, but they most likely should be

 

[00:06:38]

defining that for themselves now so

that they know what they're working

 

[00:06:41]

towards and why they're

working towards it.

 

[00:06:44]

So I'm really curious.

 

[00:06:47]

I and I'm making an assumption here.

 

[00:06:49]

You correct me.

I want to call it out.

 

[00:06:51]

And I'm assuming that that is part

 

[00:06:54]

of the work that you would normally do

with someone who is really helping them

 

[00:06:58]

figure out redefine success

for them, pre pandemic.

 

[00:07:02]

That was sort of a standard

piece of what you would do.

 

[00:07:05]

Oh, absolutely.

 

[00:07:06]

Absolutely.

 

[00:07:08]

But it was a difficult a lot

of times it was like pulling teeth.

 

[00:07:12]

I would get I would ask them what their

definition of success was and I would get

 

[00:07:15]

back basically like a mini mission

statement of whatever corporation people

 

[00:07:19]

working with, you know, a lot of,

especially because I'm

 

[00:07:22]

in the Silicone Valley and so

many of my clients are as well.

 

[00:07:25]

There's a lot of drinking

the Kool-Aid here.

 

[00:07:27]

We get indoctrinated into where the you

 

[00:07:30]

are and the culture that that breeds

the definition of success is, well,

 

[00:07:34]

obviously, you own a home is there and you

own a Tesla and you have a summer place or

 

[00:07:38]

a rental place in Tahoe and you're

making a certain monetary figure.

 

[00:07:41]

And of course, you've got

a nanny and two kids.

 

[00:07:43]

It's but that's one very

small version of success.

 

[00:07:49]

It's what and it's you know,

 

[00:07:50]

let's be honest, majority is a white

male traditional definition.

 

[00:07:56]

And people are now questioning

why that has to be.

 

[00:07:58]

Whereas before I had to lay it out as

 

[00:08:00]

an exercise and we would have to

do some actual homework.

 

[00:08:05]

Now, people are coming to me with having

 

[00:08:07]

these thoughts, and my job now is more

helping them organize those thoughts

 

[00:08:11]

rather than getting them to the point

where they're thinking about these things.

 

[00:08:15]

So, yeah, that is very new,

 

[00:08:17]

but it is always the core of my work is

not just helping them start to think about

 

[00:08:23]

what they truly want,

but how they want to do it.

 

[00:08:26]

Because you also may want the same types

 

[00:08:29]

of things, but you don't have to do

them in the same way at all anymore.

 

[00:08:34]

And I think that's been a really nice big

shift I've seen in the last five years.

 

[00:08:40]

This opening up of, oh, hey,

 

[00:08:42]

there may be other pathways,

there may be other ways to do things,

 

[00:08:45]

traditional education

and pieces of papers.

 

[00:08:47]

And third party proof that you have done

something that gets you to the next step

 

[00:08:51]

no longer holds the weight

that it used to.

 

[00:08:54]

And so I think while yes, it's

 

[00:08:57]

I think I will always have to do this work

with clients, I always have to help them

 

[00:09:00]

get to what that definition

is for themselves.

 

[00:09:04]

And how people are thinking

about it is different now.

 

[00:09:08]

So this is really interesting because

I was having a conversation with

 

[00:09:12]

someone earlier today who's I'm based

in Canada and they're Canadian and they

 

[00:09:17]

run a no longer start up,

quite well funded company.

 

[00:09:22]

And we were talking about

how the experience of

 

[00:09:28]

finding work before they started this

 

[00:09:31]

business in Canada,

looking for roles with an MBA

 

[00:09:35]

and with a lot of that social proof

and how challenging it was,

 

[00:09:39]

because if it wasn't a linear path from

the organization's standpoint,

 

[00:09:45]

they weren't interested in even

talking to this person.

 

[00:09:49]

And I wonder if because and I and I love,

 

[00:09:53]

by the way, that people that you encourage

people to think about things differently

 

[00:09:57]

and step out of that paradigm

and that people are coming to you now

 

[00:10:00]

stepped out of that paradigm

more than ever.

 

[00:10:03]

I think that's really important.

 

[00:10:04]

I'm curious if you're seeing

 

[00:10:07]

organizations responding to that or

leading that or stepping back or because

 

[00:10:13]

we were talking from a

Canadian perspective.

 

[00:10:14]

But I love your thought on that,

because I think that's a big piece of of

 

[00:10:19]

it's a really important part

of the change changing.

 

[00:10:24]

Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:10:25]

I mean, so I was a recruiter before I

 

[00:10:27]

became a career coach and I was always

an advocate for the non-linear.

 

[00:10:32]

I was always an advocate for the person

 

[00:10:34]

with the outside voice,

different experience,

 

[00:10:36]

a wider base of knowledge,

because it leads to more insight,

 

[00:10:40]

different language,

ways that you're always going to reach

 

[00:10:43]

the solution to a problem

in a different, better way.

 

[00:10:47]

I was always a huge proponent for that.

 

[00:10:49]

And in the US we have this sort

of narrative that we love the pull

 

[00:10:53]

yourself up by the bootstraps,

the outliers.

 

[00:10:55]

What's going to get things done? First

 

[00:10:57]

of all, physical impossibility to pull

yourself up by your bootstraps.

 

[00:11:01]

But

 

[00:11:02]

it is we have this narrative that we we

like the guy with the new strange idea.

 

[00:11:09]

But no, traditionally in the corporate

 

[00:11:11]

world, it has also been this linear path,

know, with the NBA, with all of that.

 

[00:11:17]

And I'm not I don't think

that will ever go away.

 

[00:11:20]

I really don't.

But I think now people are seeing.

 

[00:11:23]

That there is opportunity in the people

 

[00:11:26]

who didn't follow that path because

of the differences of ideas

 

[00:11:30]

and from a strictly money making

standpoint, which, let's be honest,

 

[00:11:34]

every decision made in the business is

a money making decision right, they're

 

[00:11:37]

realizing that when you reach other

audiences through problem solving in different

 

[00:11:41]

ways, which usually means not hiring

the person who's got on the linear

 

[00:11:45]

MBA path, you make more money because

you're reaching people where they're at.

 

[00:11:51]

And so I think it will and is changing.

 

[00:11:55]

And as we've seen now,

 

[00:11:57]

since all corporations have been forced to

finally put in the infrastructure that we

 

[00:12:01]

always knew was available,

that you don't have to have someone's butt

 

[00:12:04]

in a particular seat in a particular

location they now are on.

 

[00:12:09]

I'm already seeing it.

They're already opening up, you know,

 

[00:12:13]

talent pools in smaller locations where we

wouldn't have accepted them from before

 

[00:12:17]

because it's like, oh, well, they're not

you know, they're not white.

 

[00:12:20]

They didn't get the MBA.

 

[00:12:21]

They don't live in a major

metropolitan area.

 

[00:12:22]

Well, obviously, they're not a culture

fit for us that is already changing.

 

[00:12:27]

So.

 

[00:12:27]

Well, I'd like to say that the US

have a different view than that.

 

[00:12:31]

Can they sort of take I think we love

 

[00:12:33]

the story that we do,

but I don't think we really have.

 

[00:12:37]

But we are moving towards that.

 

[00:12:40]

And I think it's to say, yeah.

 

[00:12:42]

So I I appreciate your

perspective on that.

 

[00:12:45]

It's really it's interesting.

 

[00:12:48]

I think that I'm I love the work and

 

[00:12:54]

the idea of bringing in various lenses

and viewpoints

 

[00:12:59]

for exactly what you're saying,

which is the biggest thing to me is

 

[00:13:03]

the diversity of thought

and that diversity of of experience

 

[00:13:08]

and not just

the echo chamber of same sameness.

 

[00:13:15]

And so I think that there's a I think.

 

[00:13:19]

I think there's a big a real opportunity,

and what I hear inside of what you're

 

[00:13:23]

saying is that there's this real

opportunity to expand that out from what I

 

[00:13:27]

think a lot of companies do and what a lot

of people think of diversity, equity,

 

[00:13:31]

inclusion, whatever you want to call it,

like whatever your term for it is when

 

[00:13:34]

they think it is versus what it really is,

like a whole next level.

 

[00:13:40]

Oh, yeah.

 

[00:13:42]

It's yeah, a lot of corporations do this.

 

[00:13:45]

Oh, we're going to expand,

we're going to reach out.

 

[00:13:47]

Well, look, we've made

a few diversity hires.

 

[00:13:50]

Great.

 

[00:13:51]

You've brought them into a system that was

built to keep them from succeeding.

 

[00:13:56]

How is that?

 

[00:13:57]

If you include them in that system,

it's still that system.

 

[00:14:00]

So, yeah, they have to go deeper than just

bringing those people in or just even

 

[00:14:06]

saying they're going to listen to those

voices or go after that market,

 

[00:14:09]

whoever it may be,

it is truly about changing

 

[00:14:11]

the fundamentals

of how they're solving problems,

 

[00:14:16]

who they're

tapping to solve those problems and what

 

[00:14:20]

they're doing with those

solutions at the end.

 

[00:14:23]

And some companies are doing

better with it than others.

 

[00:14:27]

So people are allowing their leadership

kind of roles to change the look,

 

[00:14:34]

not just the look, but how they function,

which I think is the linchpin there is.

 

[00:14:40]

The functionality has to change.

 

[00:14:42]

You can't just listen to the voices if you

 

[00:14:44]

collect all that data

and you do nothing, was it?

 

[00:14:46]

It's pointless.

 

[00:14:48]

So changing and giving leaders or made

 

[00:14:53]

and I'm a huge advocate of creating

leaders, whether or not they've got

 

[00:14:56]

the title, allowing them to have

agency and to feel that they have some

 

[00:15:05]

agency to actually make change

 

[00:15:06]

and to discuss things with stakeholders

and genuinely make change to internal

 

[00:15:12]

processes that will affect

their end products.

 

[00:15:16]

It doesn't matter if

you just bring them in.

 

[00:15:18]

If you don't change how you allow

them to work, it will come to naught.

 

[00:15:22]

So I, I do a lot of work

with culture, right.

 

[00:15:26]

With organizational culture

and change organizational culture.

 

[00:15:29]

And I love what you're talking about

 

[00:15:30]

because this is I mean, this is

why I have a podcast on leading

 

[00:15:36]

thing, because so often

the culture piece is a checkpoint

 

[00:15:42]

right in a box like, oh,

 

[00:15:44]

you know, we have words on the wall

and a ping pong table and we do events.

 

[00:15:48]

We have great culture.

 

[00:15:50]

It's like, how do you guys actually

operate and how are you who like,

 

[00:15:55]

what are the rules around what

listen, I, I feel and rules.

 

[00:15:58]

But,

you know, I fully appreciate

 

[00:16:01]

that there are some things that someone

else needs to make a decision around.

 

[00:16:06]

I get that.

 

[00:16:08]

But inside of every rule,

 

[00:16:09]

there's also the opportunity for people

to make decisions and take ownership.

 

[00:16:13]

So what how are you explaining

 

[00:16:15]

that and what does that look like

and how does this all function together?

 

[00:16:17]

And what is this what is the sandbox

 

[00:16:19]

that we are all playing

in and what does that mean?

 

[00:16:22]

And it's and it's really

interesting because

 

[00:16:27]

I am curious with with you what you're

seeing, not only the work that you're

 

[00:16:32]

doing, but we are seeing your

experiences are more companies.

 

[00:16:36]

Really starting to think that way,

 

[00:16:38]

or is it industry specific,

because I'd imagine and I'm so comfortable

 

[00:16:42]

being wrong,

but I'd imagine in San Francisco

 

[00:16:46]

there are a lot of Silicone Valley startups

that they're more mindful of the realities

 

[00:16:51]

of that than maybe other

parts of the country.

 

[00:16:55]

That is really interesting.

 

[00:16:57]

I deal with people in a lot of different

markets and in different fields.

 

[00:17:02]

And I would say

 

[00:17:03]

it's really interesting because New York,

which you think of as this like

 

[00:17:09]

innovative outlook, they are

genuinely the most traditional.

 

[00:17:13]

My clients who are in New York are stuck

 

[00:17:16]

in these old old patterns, especially

if they work in any sort of media.

 

[00:17:21]

They are stuck in these just entrenched.

 

[00:17:25]

Oh, it's like the guys who run

 

[00:17:27]

the railroad started these media

companies, right, and they still function

 

[00:17:30]

that way, which boggles my mind because

I do approach it very much from this.

 

[00:17:36]

I'm in the land of disruption

 

[00:17:38]

and innovation, which a lot of times is

lip service, not try to pretend it's not.

 

[00:17:42]

But I do find where people don't give

 

[00:17:44]

enough credit is to like

the Chicagos and the Austins.

 

[00:17:49]

And the Iowas, the whole state,

very, very different ways of thinking

 

[00:17:54]

and being, but a lot of amazing

ideas and a lot of just

 

[00:18:00]

normalcy of difference of opinion.

 

[00:18:04]

Yeah, I never think difference

of opinion is a bad thing.

 

[00:18:10]

I wouldn't say it's field specific,

 

[00:18:12]

but location definitely has an effect

and Canada is just as big as the US.

 

[00:18:16]

There's like a million ways to do

anything in both of our locations, but.

 

[00:18:21]

Yeah, I think there are very stereotypes

that work and don't work and a lot

 

[00:18:26]

of times work against what you think you

might be able to do in a certain place.

 

[00:18:29]

But I want to hope that it's changing.

 

[00:18:33]

I want to I really do want

to hope that I see that.

 

[00:18:36]

I do see it in certain places.

 

[00:18:38]

I've got a couple of clients who

 

[00:18:40]

are there in other fields other

than tech here in the Bay Area.

 

[00:18:43]

And they see a lot of the same issues.

 

[00:18:46]

They see a lot of, oh, well,

they need quote unquote, diversity hires.

 

[00:18:49]

And then these poor hires

are not set up for success.

 

[00:18:51]

And I now they're just sort of plunked

 

[00:18:54]

in and then expected to do their job as

well as, oh, here, educate everyone else

 

[00:18:59]

on how to deal with you

appropriately, quote unquote.

 

[00:19:02]

It's so unfair in such a blatant way

 

[00:19:07]

that I don't know how it continues

to exist because then it affects their job

 

[00:19:10]

performance, obviously,

because I test them for two jobs.

 

[00:19:13]

You're underpaying them for one.

 

[00:19:15]

So.

 

[00:19:18]

Well, I see companies across the board

 

[00:19:21]

in all fields and all

regions making overtures.

 

[00:19:24]

I think it's pretty obvious we know

there's so much work left to do.

 

[00:19:30]

That's why I think locations like Atlanta

are amazing,

 

[00:19:33]

where so many black entrepreneurs have

just opted out of the white run system.

 

[00:19:37]

OK, you don't want to fund my project.

Cool.

 

[00:19:39]

I will take the money it will generate

elsewhere and have really built this

 

[00:19:43]

amazing supportive network

which should have existed

 

[00:19:49]

that they shouldn't have

had to create on their own.

 

[00:19:51]

But they did.

 

[00:19:52]

And they are out there,

some tech companies.

 

[00:19:55]

Sure.

 

[00:19:55]

But there's also fashion companies and

media and everything going on.

 

[00:19:59]

So it's we know it's doable,

 

[00:20:02]

but clearly the system is

just broken to get there, so.

 

[00:20:06]

It's almost like the there's like I'm

going to use the term scrappiness

 

[00:20:11]

that comes from not being a major hub,

but allows you to think about things

 

[00:20:15]

differently and approach

things differently.

 

[00:20:16]

So it's and it's like

resiliency in humans, right.

 

[00:20:19]

Or grit or whatever.

 

[00:20:21]

Use the term scrappier.

 

[00:20:23]

But if you sometimes out of necessity,

more than anything,

 

[00:20:29]

you end up being the person that like

the entrepreneurs in Atlanta you're

 

[00:20:33]

talking about that are leading

the way for other people.

 

[00:20:38]

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

 

[00:20:41]

And I think, unfortunately,

that's really common.

 

[00:20:43]

And if you just look at kind of anything,

 

[00:20:46]

any market, any housing market where

an underrepresented community will go in

 

[00:20:51]

because it's the only place open to them,

because rents are cheap or

 

[00:20:56]

labor is less expensive or materials are

just more readily available,

 

[00:21:01]

then they turn it into something

amazing than the old guard comes in.

 

[00:21:05]

It's like, oh, look at that..cool...

 

[00:21:07]

Let's just get our hands on that and let's

buy that up and step that up and

 

[00:21:10]

then drive the people who created it

out, which I'm hoping against

 

[00:21:15]

hope.. I hope it's not against hope

 

[00:21:16]

so I'm hoping that these strongholds

are allowed to say stay strong.

 

[00:21:21]

And you see it overall in real estate.

 

[00:21:23]

You see it in business all the time.

 

[00:21:24]

This is not a new concept,

but I'm hoping now

 

[00:21:28]

that kind of localized powers have been

slightly dispersed and that I mean,

 

[00:21:34]

we've seen a huge fight here from people

just moving all over back across country

 

[00:21:38]

because there's a lot of people who were,

quote unquote, forced to live here to work

 

[00:21:41]

in the tech industry,

who didn't ever want to live here.

 

[00:21:44]

And now they've been able to move and take

their skills and their expertise and maybe

 

[00:21:47]

their culture and maybe their family

and go do something else somewhere else.

 

[00:21:51]

And I hope that chips away at the

armor of the old guard a little bit.

 

[00:21:55]

Yeah, I love that.

 

[00:21:57]

I love that you're seeing that.

 

[00:21:58]

I think that's a really I'm not surprised,

 

[00:22:01]

given the expense of the Bay Area and the

I know a lot of people that moved there,

 

[00:22:09]

not because they wanted to,

but because the job opportunities and it's

 

[00:22:11]

like it's great that they don't

have to be there anymore.

 

[00:22:15]

Yeah.

 

[00:22:15]

And it should have been

this way for a long time.

 

[00:22:17]

And a lot of us have been jockeying

for people to hire outside of the market.

 

[00:22:23]

There's no need in 2021

 

[00:22:25]

for you to have to sit next

to someone unless you're working

 

[00:22:28]

on a physical product with them

where they need their hands on it.

 

[00:22:32]

There is no reason for that anymore.

 

[00:22:35]

And hopefully now this will have forced

 

[00:22:38]

some change of thought

for some change in the system.

 

[00:22:41]

And now if you can afford a Chromebook,

 

[00:22:45]

something very inexpensive,

you can create something anywhere.

 

[00:22:48]

And you not that entrepreneurship

is for everyone.

 

[00:22:52]

Not that leadership is for everyone, but

 

[00:22:55]

the idea that it's doable is for everyone,

 

[00:22:59]

and so hopefully traditional corporate

structures will understand that they can

 

[00:23:03]

move outside of their

normal candidate funnel.

 

[00:23:06]

They can look out into other pools

 

[00:23:08]

of talent that just would not have

had a chance to be seen before.

 

[00:23:12]

And I think everyone

will be better for it.

 

[00:23:15]

It's an interesting challenge because

 

[00:23:18]

if I think about companies, you know,

even ones that I've worked with over the

 

[00:23:24]

a number of years now that have gone

remote or done some version of hybrid pre

 

[00:23:29]

pandemic and also out of necessity,

necessity in 2020,

 

[00:23:34]

the challenge has often been

not the going remote itself.

 

[00:23:38]

But how do you work

in a different environment?

 

[00:23:43]

How do you hire in a different scenario

 

[00:23:46]

how it's the it's the structures

that they have in place

 

[00:23:51]

that you can't just transfer

them to remote.

 

[00:23:53]

You can't just hire the same way

remotely that you do in person.

 

[00:23:58]

You know, candidates show up differently,

 

[00:24:02]

remote, like there's both from the company

and the individual perspective.

 

[00:24:06]

It's a different experience.

 

[00:24:08]

Absolutely.

 

[00:24:09]

And I do consulting with companies who are

 

[00:24:11]

really struggling to find and retain

hires because it's very expensive.

 

[00:24:15]

Right.

And once I pin them down on, OK,

 

[00:24:20]

this is what you say you want and what do

you actually want,

 

[00:24:23]

because those are 90 percent

of the time to very different things.

 

[00:24:27]

Then we do talk about what the system

 

[00:24:29]

looks like now in terms of hiring,

because I very early on when I started

 

[00:24:33]

consulting during the pandemic and in this

exact topic, I had come to say, OK,

 

[00:24:39]

we liked the candidates we were getting,

but we've already had two interviews

 

[00:24:42]

and we couldn't hire either of them

because they weren't wearing a suit,

 

[00:24:46]

which is they were so used to people

coming into their financial district

 

[00:24:49]

downtown office wearing a suit that they

could not even wrap their minds around

 

[00:24:54]

the fact that it would been a little

strange for someone to be sitting

 

[00:24:57]

on their couch with their zoom set up

in a suit and they weren't even willing

 

[00:25:02]

to to look past that,

whereas the candidate thought it would

 

[00:25:04]

have been much more appropriate to be

slightly casual or casually dressed.

 

[00:25:10]

Right.

 

[00:25:10]

They were doing what they felt was

something as simple as just what

 

[00:25:12]

a candidate is wearing versus

much of the old guard.

 

[00:25:16]

I was working with a company who even

though in California,

 

[00:25:19]

we've been on one of the strictest

lockdowns anywhere we

 

[00:25:22]

like on house arrest until today,

you could not leave your home.

 

[00:25:26]

I had a company where the owner, CEO,

 

[00:25:29]

refused to hire anyone that he

had not met in person.

 

[00:25:32]

And it's not a very large company,

about 40 ish people.

 

[00:25:35]

So not a crazy expectation.

But right now,

 

[00:25:38]

absolutely absurd expectation now that he

he was expected to fly candidates across

 

[00:25:43]

the country and have them like,

go sit out on a park bench to meet him.

 

[00:25:47]

And he could not just he wasn't

trying to be intentionally obtuse.

 

[00:25:52]

He just in a very real way,

 

[00:25:54]

could not wrap his head around

the fact that that could not happen.

 

[00:25:58]

And, B, that he needed to figure out

a different way for him to get

 

[00:26:02]

the chemistry, understanding that he was

looking for,

 

[00:26:06]

just with meeting someone over video and

looking at different types of candidates.

 

[00:26:11]

Because one of the reasons I was called

 

[00:26:12]

in is that they only had

one employee of color.

 

[00:26:16]

And of course, he was male.

 

[00:26:17]

So it was like we're still working on it.

 

[00:26:21]

It is still a struggle

for him to understand.

 

[00:26:24]

And there unfortunately,

 

[00:26:25]

at a certain level,

there isn't anything you can do to make

 

[00:26:28]

the stakeholders who have the overhead

understand there's nothing you can do.

 

[00:26:33]

They you can get them to understand

that there are limitations in place

 

[00:26:37]

and how to best work

within those limitations.

 

[00:26:39]

And for certain

 

[00:26:41]

hiring managers at certain levels,

it is going to be presenting them.

 

[00:26:45]

You know, if you are the hiring manager or

 

[00:26:47]

HR recruiter,

presenting them with it,

 

[00:26:49]

as close as an experience as you can

possibly get to what they're used

 

[00:26:53]

to and coaching the candidate,

that that's what they're used to seeing.

 

[00:26:57]

I think fully so many millennials

are in hiring roles at this point.

 

[00:27:03]

That isn't quite as big

of a problem for them.

 

[00:27:08]

They're used to doing so much via the

Internet that it's they're tired of it.

 

[00:27:12]

They're bored with it.

They wish it was different,

 

[00:27:14]

but they know how to work within its

confines in a much different way.

 

[00:27:19]

So I find that to be much

more of a generational issue.

 

[00:27:23]

And unfortunately,

 

[00:27:24]

there is a certain point where there isn't

a lot you can do other than,

 

[00:27:27]

you know, getting them to understand,

presenting the best experience you can.

 

[00:27:30]

But I find millennials make

great hiring managers right now.

 

[00:27:35]

I feel if you don't,

 

[00:27:37]

it'd be strange if you didn't have

 

[00:27:39]

a hiring team that was packed

with them at this point.

 

[00:27:42]

But if you didn't ask them for their

expertise, ask them how they handle it.

 

[00:27:46]

Use the people that you have to make

the experience as good as you can for both

 

[00:27:51]

you, your team and your candidates

if you want the best candidates.

 

[00:27:55]

It's not just about

 

[00:27:57]

the pattern that they've taken to get

 

[00:27:59]

there, but it's about

setting them up for success.

 

[00:28:01]

From the interview forward.

 

[00:28:04]

I love that

 

[00:28:06]

I'm going to change tack

a little bit and I want to ask.

 

[00:28:10]

So inside of everything that you're saying

 

[00:28:13]

and inside of your experience, I hear

you deal with leaders a lot, right?

 

[00:28:19]

This is whether they're company owners,

 

[00:28:22]

whether they're leaders in organizations,

whether they're individual candidates.

 

[00:28:26]

I hear a lot of you dealing with leaders.

 

[00:28:28]

And I'm wondering from your perspective

 

[00:28:30]

and experience, what makes

a leader successful?

 

[00:28:36]

These days, with all of the

constant nonstop change that we are,

 

[00:28:43]

challenges, the unknown that

we're all dealing with?

 

[00:28:46]

What what do you think makes

the most successful these days?

 

[00:28:50]

I find it the most successful leader,

no matter what their title.

 

[00:28:54]

If they are crystal clear on the outcome

that they're working towards,

 

[00:28:59]

they can just make it work with changes,

with reversals, with complete upheavals,

 

[00:29:06]

it's being crystal clear on what

the outcome is and getting the team

 

[00:29:10]

to agree that that's what

they're all working towards.

 

[00:29:13]

And once they've got that and they've got

everyone in agreement there,

 

[00:29:17]

that it doesn't matter what little changes

come up in between or personality

 

[00:29:22]

conflicts, you're all on the same

team working towards the same goal.

 

[00:29:26]

And everyone is working towards that goal.

 

[00:29:28]

And it is under stood.

 

[00:29:30]

And once they can clearly define that,

 

[00:29:33]

whether it's something really simple,

an agenda for a meeting versus taking

 

[00:29:38]

a new product from ideation to launch,

if they know crystal clear what that is

 

[00:29:43]

and they can communicate

that they will do great.

 

[00:29:46]

I love that you said an agenda

for a meeting because I was just

 

[00:29:51]

thinking.How many leaders do I know that,

 

[00:29:54]

that

 

[00:29:54]

is not a thing.

 

[00:29:57]

And it's very literally

everyone's pet peeve,

 

[00:30:02]

not having one

 

[00:30:04]

or having a very clear one that everyone

knows what they're expected and then just

 

[00:30:08]

obliterating it and going

in with something out of left field.

 

[00:30:13]

It just throws everyone off

 

[00:30:16]

they've been focused

on this discussion.

 

[00:30:19]

Also, they've got to make

it stop and reverse it.

 

[00:30:21]

And it just takes so much

more time to refocus.

 

[00:30:24]

It is so much more detrimental

than just not having the meeting.

 

[00:30:30]

Yep.

Yep.

 

[00:30:31]

I think it is a pet peeve of mine how we

tend to do meetings and how how everyone

 

[00:30:41]

has problems with them and thinks they can do

 

[00:30:43]

better, and yet no one actually

does better. Ever.

 

[00:30:47]

Yeah, it's

 

[00:30:49]

it's shocking because you're right,

everyone thinks they can do better.

 

[00:30:53]

I even worked at an agency once that had

a list of rules for meetings that they

 

[00:30:57]

eliminated them and they put them on every

table, every surface where a meeting could

 

[00:31:01]

be held around and everyone

was having a clear set agenda.

 

[00:31:05]

And on time and simple rules,

we're all in the same sandbox.

 

[00:31:10]

Let's share the tonka truck.

 

[00:31:11]

No, no one could follow them.

 

[00:31:13]

It's it is shocking.

 

[00:31:16]

Yeah, it's

 

[00:31:18]

and I will say this.

 

[00:31:20]

I don't know if this is if you would if

this has been your experience,

 

[00:31:23]

but I will say that if nothing else, this

stay at home orders the quarantining.

 

[00:31:30]

The people working from home has

 

[00:31:32]

highlighted just how bad most companies,

how poorly most companies run meetings.

 

[00:31:39]

Oh, absolutely.

And it's it's interesting cause there's

 

[00:31:42]

a lot of stories,

anecdotes that I use in my work.

 

[00:31:45]

When I the moment I knew I needed to leave

 

[00:31:47]

corporate world myself and work outside

of it is when I found myself in a meeting

 

[00:31:52]

about a meeting, about

a button on a website.

 

[00:31:58]

Yeah, yeah,

 

[00:32:01]

and if I remember correctly,

 

[00:32:03]

it was like an hour and a half long

meeting and it was about a meeting.

 

[00:32:06]

Yeah, and it was one of those hours.

 

[00:32:07]

This isn't how humans are meant to spend.

 

[00:32:14]

Yeah, but I, I

 

[00:32:18]

yeah.

 

[00:32:19]

Wow.

 

[00:32:21]

That might be that might be one of those

 

[00:32:23]

reading stories I'm going

to tell people about.

 

[00:32:26]

I would be like, let me tell you a story

 

[00:32:28]

about a meeting about her about

a button on a website that happened.

 

[00:32:32]

Yeah.

Yeah.

 

[00:32:35]

And I think hopefully this is one

 

[00:32:37]

of the good things because people realize

you don't all have to be in a room

 

[00:32:41]

going through all of the nuts

and bolts and things.

 

[00:32:44]

Generally, those meetings were just super,

 

[00:32:46]

super top level, barely actually

getting into the process of anything.

 

[00:32:50]

Anyway, great.

 

[00:32:51]

Send a quick video explaining what

you need from your entire team.

 

[00:32:54]

Shoot them the video done right.

 

[00:32:56]

There's new ways to do things

and it can be done efficiently,

 

[00:33:01]

cleaner, quicker, more engaging.

 

[00:33:03]

People can actually get

the information they need.

 

[00:33:06]

It's shocking what technology

can do these days.

 

[00:33:10]

Very true.

 

[00:33:12]

So I.

 

[00:33:15]

I'm going to kind of.

 

[00:33:18]

Get to wrap this up.

 

[00:33:19]

I want to be respectful of your time,

and I'm when you hear the term or the idea

 

[00:33:23]

leading through crisis, what does

that what does that mean to you?

 

[00:33:27]

What comes up for you inside of that

 

[00:33:30]

leading through crisis

to me is about the people.

 

[00:33:34]

It's I think it to truly lead that it's

 

[00:33:38]

not about the company

objectives in terms of profit.

 

[00:33:41]

I think to leave it

go back to the what that word means.

 

[00:33:45]

You're leading people, right?

 

[00:33:47]

Go back to your people if you can make

sure that you are leading your people

 

[00:33:51]

and caring for them and taking care

of their their needs in terms of your

 

[00:33:56]

work, as well as just

them as human beings.

 

[00:34:00]

And you have that empathy.

 

[00:34:03]

There will be nothing that you can't do

 

[00:34:05]

at the corporate level because they will

be behind you because they know that you

 

[00:34:07]

genuinely care about them as people,

not just cogs in your system,

 

[00:34:13]

but you have to start with remembering

that you're leading people.

 

[00:34:20]

I love that I think that is a really

 

[00:34:22]

powerful place to wrap this up,

because I don't think there's anything

 

[00:34:26]

more important for leaders to remember

than they're leading people.

 

[00:34:31]

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

 

[00:34:33]

Thank you for chatting with me EB.

 

[00:34:35]

It's been really lovely.

 

[00:34:37]

We will find EB online

at EBSanders.com

 

[00:34:41]

she has a course career change

 

[00:34:43]

with confidence that you can find

more information about there.

 

[00:34:45]

All the links will be

in the show notes for this.

 

[00:34:49]

I really appreciate you taking the time

to come and chat with me today.

 

[00:34:52]

Thank you so much for having me.

This has been so great.

 

[00:34:55]

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you.

 

[00:34:57]

Thanks for joining me today

on the leading through Crisis podcast.

 

[00:35:01]

If you enjoyed this conversation,

 

[00:35:03]

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[00:35:06]

If you're interested in learning more

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[00:35:09]

you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.