In this episode, I talk to Dr. J.J. Kelly (aka The Punk Rock Doc) about emotional intelligence in business and the power of challenging and rethinking beliefs. Join us for an entertaining conversation about liking yourself more and important communication/leadership skills.
Dr. Kelly, a Licensed Clinical Psychologist, Emotional Intelligence Trainer, and Bestselling Author of The Holy Shit Series, asserts that when we can say, “Hey, I like myself – flaws and all” that is true, authentic leadership. And, we don't have a lot of examples of that in the world.
In this episode, we also discuss:
- Affection outside of romantic and familial relationships
- What to do with thoughts and feelings that "aren't allowed"
- What defensiveness is and how it hurts us
- Why it's important to be challenged and rethink our beliefs
- How shame and fear (often) rule our lives
+ more!
“We respect people who rethink because it’s growth in action and yet, as individuals, we struggle to do it.”
J.J. is awesome and so entertaining. I hope you'll join us for this episode!
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Dr. J.J. Kelly, The Punk Rock Doc, is a licensed clinical psychologist, emotional intelligence skills training expert, and bestselling author of The Holy Shit Series. J.J. is also the CEO & Founder of UnorthoDocs, Inc., a punk alternative to traditional psychotherapy. Dr. Kelly and the unortho “docs” live their lives with the belief that global healing is achieved by teaching people the skills to like themselves. To learn more about J.J. and her work, visit drjjkelly.com or follow her on Instagram (@drjjkelly).
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. So you might recognize my guest today 'cause she's been a guest on the show before. I'm here with Dr. JJ Kelly, which is very formal, also known as the Punk Rock Doc who is a licensed clinical psychologist and emotional intelligence trainer. And hands down, most importantly, my very dear friend.
Hi.
Hi.
Dear friend.
That's right. But, you know, we don't say dear friend enough, we need to go back to the days of dear friending, why not?
Word, why not? Gosh, we need more and love in the world, man.
Right? I was saying to someone really recently, this conversation is gonna go all over the place.
I'm very excited for it.
Awesome. Just gonna own it right off the bat. I was saying to someone really recently, 'cause there was like an article or something that was talking about how we don't say, I love you to friends enough. Like we don't use the language of love. We've reserved it for romantic relationships or familiar relationships only. And we were talking about this and I said, yes, and, I went through a stage where I would tell all my friends that I loved them and I would tell, like if a bartender brought me a drink, I'd be like, oh my God, I love you so much, thank you for this. And people kept telling me to stop being weird.
That one I don't like at all. It has an insincerity to it that I think makes the other ones invalid, that's me.
That's fair, that's fair. But the fact that it was, and I'm not saying that's for everyone I wanna make that clear. Don't go telling bartenders you love them if you don't like, the way I was doing it, did not, it never landed wrong with them ever. They always thought-
I personally, I would not like that.
Fair
I hoped that I'd be able to read that in you but like the fact that other people were like, even friends were like, that's a really weird thing to do, to just tell your friends you love them, I stopped. I've started doing it, but I stopped doing it for a really long time because like, why don't we, why can't we talk about loving our friends? Like I don't only love my family or romantic partner that's weird.
Yes, I agree totally. And I'm always the weird friend that pushes that. I'm actually, it makes my skin crawl. The I love you with someone I'm not tight with. You know, there are these certain people and organizations in the like, now toxic positivity world where they say I love you right out of the fucking gates. As a like Irish American, Midwestern, no fucking way, that's weird, and not the good weird like, that that makes my skin fucking crawl I don't know you like that, you know, like we're not tight. Don't, mm-mmm, and the expectation that you're supposed to say it back, I'm not fuckin' saying that back, mm-mm. We can sit in the awkwardness that you created by saying it. I'm not saying that shit back outta obligation,
It means too much to me.
Right. But I will say it with friends and their skin can crawl I don't care because I do love them and I want them to know that, and you know, a lot of 'em have gotten used to it. I pushed the, why don't we ever kiss each other on the cheek, which is dead in the water now 'cause of COVID, right? I would kiss friends on the cheek and like, sometimes lips in a totally platonic way. And we had to talk about that again with former Midwesterners and they all laughed and shit, but you know, I swear to God they got more affectionate. It's like permission, for what we already want more love, more hugs, more I love you's more hair petting, whatever.
More connection, more intimacy, more vulnerability.
Yes.
Like isn't that it's, I love that you said that 'cause I think, so I grew up with, you know this, I grew up with European parents and my mother being Italian, when you go to Italy, all of her friends, they hold your hand, they kiss your face. There's not one or two kisses, there's like 17 kisses. There's so much hugging, you sit next to someone their arm is around, like there is touching constantly. And I grew up with that. So I have to be very mindful of how I hug or my natural, and I will warn people like, I'm a hugger and I will hug you for an inappropriate amount of time because I don't know how to not do that. Because it is that like connection.
Yes. People either, they lean in and they, it's like, oh it is permission to be affectionate in some way that is not sexual or inappropriate.
Yeah.
Which then can, you know, balloon out in groups. Whether it's a professional setting or a personal setting where it's like it should be okay, sorry HR, anyone in HR who's listening to this, I apologize in advance. But it should be okay to hug someone in a business setting if they're having a bad day or you have that kind of relationship, why can't you?
I agree totally, why can't you? We know why. Certain folks fuck it up and go too far. Take advantage with their privilege, blah, blah, blah. But yes, I think there needs to be so much more touch. Platonic, loving touch in the world and God coming off of COVID the reemergence, I think we probably are so starved we don't even know what it will do for us to have that, more of that touch.
Yeah, absolutely, I mean it's, I think COVID had everyone look really internally for, not always successfully, but I think a lot of people looked internally for what mattered to them or what they really wanted to be doing, or their purpose or whatever the case may be, at the expense of any external connection. So, I that you know, external connection.
What a time not to have pets, by the way, oh my gosh. I was like longing for former pets during the whole COVID-
Yes.
Thing, man. Whoo, yep, just somebody come, somebody bring their dog over, and I'll just sit with that dog for hours. Whatever man, man, oh man.
Full disclosure, my cats were very popular in COVID 'cause people were like, can I, 'cause I'm very affectionate, so they were like, can we just come and hang out with the cats? I was like, yeah you can because I get it. They're, you can't catch anything from them and they're affectionate, so.
Oh that is a lovely gift you gave your friends.
The number of people's kids who were like, can we come play with the cats? Like yes you can come, its was very cute. 'Cause they weren't in school and it was that, you know, that lacking connection. They were lacking connection. We've all been lacking connection.
Yep, you know I was with a kid, well he's not a kid, in his late twenties now, but I've seen him on and off for a couple of years and we were talking about strangely, leadership. I don't always talk to clients and say the word leadership but I was saying, you know, I don't know how many role models you have to be your, like, super weird, sparkly bunnies and rainbows kind of cat. You know, like, this kid is so openhearted and weird and then scared because all the rejection and bullying that happened developmentally. But, you know, you could tell, you could feel your people, no matter whether you've met them or not. You kind of can feel out the weirdos if you've been one or whatever. And God, just such a lovely kid, and I was like, why do you think that I continue to be all the way me in a setting that kind of says don't do that.
Yep.
Cause I believe that me being my shiny, sparkly, swear like a sailor it's, accept myself anyway, self is an invitation for you to do the same thing. You need to see people who shine and like themselves and are freak houses and like their happy lives. Like, there just aren't a whole lot of role models of that. Act according to your values, build self-esteem and self-confidence, don't care about people's reaction to the weird and like themselves, did I say like themselves twice?
You said self-esteem, but we'll go with, I'm fine with those being different, we're good.
So, but like just the basic, hey I like myself flaws and all doesn't fucking exist many places. So I was like, to me that is true leadership. And he was like, holy shit, we sure don't talk about leadership like that in, like, a straight male patriarchy, you know, white societies like that is not how leadership is described. I was like, I know and I disagree with how it is portrayed, dude, why the fuck do you think I'm saying it like this to you? Because you are starting to step into what is going to be a leadership role. You started your own company, you're, you know, like, you're becoming all the way you and it's going to affect your business greatly in the positive if you have these things lined up within yourself, that's just how it goes.
Yep, yeah.
Let me be an example of that for you.
And then you do you.
The way that you're talking, that's how, this is how I've always interpreted and spoken into this idea of leading by example, right?
Yes.
Which is really, you know, I've said for years that one of the things, one of the reasons I do what I do is because it's really important for me to help leaders 'cause I work with mostly leaders. Fully step into who they are and be okay with that so that they can then create that space for other people.
Yes.
Because when you are; That to me is leading by example is not putting on the suit because someone, I mean wear a suit if you wanna wear a suit, I don't care. But it's not putting on the suit because someone else dictates that you have-
That's right.
to look a certain way. And listen, we all adapt our language for various situations, that's not a bad thing, it's part of navigating the world. But entirely changing or disconnecting from who you are or what your values are, or having that person's judgment completely derail your self-esteem, that's not leading by example. And the more that we can say I am a whole complete human being the way I am and I love the good, bad, and ugly about myself and it doesn't mean I don't wanna change anything or I don't wanna get better or this is the end game. But I can love where I am and going, I know we talked about this last time, hold the opposite or hold a different thought that I still wanna be better in these ways at the same time.
Yes.
This is leading by example. And a lot of the language, a lot of how people talk about leading by example is not this, it's not this.
Yes, that's so true. And you know, the adaptation to your environment thing is a real sticky thing. And you know being, like, having an expertise in dialectics, you know, the Venn diagram, that opposite is, or seeming opposites as you were saying. Like yes, yes, adaptation and being yourself.
Yes.
And that Venn diagram. And it's like the slippery thing is I think, is that what, how does brainwashing work? Okay, well repetition carves new neural pathways. So you gotta be careful because adaptation can become brainwashing in tiny fucking increments over time and then you don't even notice. So, I think that knowing what your values are can help that process because then you're constantly evaluating. Does this match my values? Does this match my values? Instead of just doing what you're told to avoid punishment in a work setting.
Yes.
Like. So I'll get another job mother fucker, I'm not doing that. But that's me, you could do it in your way of speaking much more diplomatically. I was constantly in trouble when I had a boss. So there clearly are better ways to do it than me. But I'll tell you what I came out as shit. Like unscathed as far as my self confidence and self-esteem. I'm not saying, you know, walking off the job or something is good for your self-esteem, but sometimes it is sure.
Sure.
If it doesn't match your values, and I think people wanna watch for this tiny increments thing.
Yeah.
'Cause you change like adapt, adapt and I, you know, and all these smart people now have no emotional vocabulary.
Yep, yep.
Because it's not appropriate to talk about emotions in a work setting patriarchy. So even, you know, women and people of color are in a system of like white, straight male, fucking thing. And some of the women are toxic masculinity out too
Hugely so, yeah.
Because they're adhering to the system in tiny increments, they have no idea they've become a Karen 'cause it didn't happen overnight.
Yep. Yes, all of that, and I agree with you. When I say adapting, I don't mean against your values. And I say that 'cause I appreciate you calling it out 'cause I would not want anyone to be listening or watching this and thinking that. That is an important checkpoint. There are ways to intentionally adapt and check values and make sure that things are in alignment that aren't that. And there the very, listen, one of my favorite sayings that I use ironically is there's no crying in baseball. And I use it ironically 'cause I'm always like, there's so much crying in everything because we all have feel every emotion should be okay in the workplace. You and I have talked about this so many times. Feel your feel that is giving you information, be upset. And maybe going in and screaming at your boss is not the best way to express your anger. But it is okay to feel all the feelings,
That's like.
That's right. And then you learn what to do with it and that's the adapting, to me that's the adapting. It's not, you know, it's knowing that if I go in and I swear and I scream at my boss, there's a pretty good chance I'm gonna get fired, okay. But I can still be in line with my values and tell my boss that I am upset and angry and here's the reason why to a better result, that's the adapting.
Yeah.
For me.
And if you go off and slay your boss in a way that doesn't match your values worse than getting fired, you're gonna have shame.
Yes.
Your own self-esteem by behaving in a way that you don't even agree with, when you're not pissed, that's the thing. When you get that pissed and it's usually from stuffing for years and not admitting, I don't wanna be an angry person, you're already a fucking angry person because you've been stuffing for decades. It's so much healthier to just admit to at least yourself, when you're angry and then take a step back and decide what you wanna do about it, according to your own values. Like not ever acknowledging anger is not a sustainable system, people. There's the toxic positivity, I don't wanna be an angry person, wow I could feel the anger and hostility, the unacknowledged anger reverberating off of you and every other fucking thing you do is passive-aggressive. So not really working your whole thing, you're just trying to present something. And plus anger's the one that tells us our boundaries are being crossed.
Totally.
That's a really useful. Signaling system for us. It is not carte blanche to go off and throw chairs and shit, 'cause I'm not gonna do that 'cause I have worked hard to build my self-esteem and self confidence according to my values, and that doesn't match it. The impulse to do it, that matches. I can absolutely go, whoa, I got some dark thoughts about this situation. And acknowledging that dark shit and thought form actually prevents doing it. I don't do that stuff, I talk about face mushin' people all the time, I don't face mush people all the time. I just talk about it.
Yeah.
Most jokingly. But sometimes, you know, I teach a kid some emotional intelligence skills, or fuck, even an executive, some emotional intelligence skills and then they twist it and pervert it and then use it to self-flatulate. Yeah, do I wanna face mush them or shake 'em?
Hell yeah I do.
Yeah.
Do I? Absolutely not. I say it, we laugh then we go back and talk about, hey, why it pisses me off 'cause you're hurting somebody.
I care about.
Yeah.
Knock it off. We can do this, okay, well what can you do instead? What was the emotion that was driving that? Where did the anger click a switch in you that you decided to give yourself permission to act the asshole? 'Cause we do make that choice. Oh, and all of a sudden I'm pissed enough where it's okay.
I love you so much and I think the thing that I have said to more people in the past six months is the initial feeling you're feeling, your initial reaction, you're not responsible for that is giving you information. And then the thing you do next is a choice. And then the thing you do next is a choice. So what choice are you making? What choice are you making? And I will tell you, and I'm sure you get this to the nth degree because, but I get, people are like, defensive, I'm like, are you being served by sitting in this shit, whatever the hell it is, or acting? 'Cause you're making that choice, so it's serving something. Why are you mad? People hate it, they hate it because there's so much, and I don't know, I couldn't even begin to guess where it came from, but there's so much language out of like, you're feel all your feelings. What I'm about to say is not to take away from feeling initial feelings, but you don't have to sit in that feeling for the rest of time, that feeling is not the truth forever. If it's driving shit, you're making a choice to sit in that feeling and behave in a shitty way, to act inappropriately whatever the case is. And we don't, people don't want to hear that.
Yeah. And you know what I've found kind of by accident is that nobody knows what defensive is. Like, especially in the moment when they're behaving defensively. And I'm like, actually there's no reason you have to behave defensively right now. And they're like, I'm not being defensive. Isn't that the first fuckin' thing anybody says when you say no need to be defensive right now. I'm not being defensive, whoa. Even interns at the doctoral level, didn't know what defensive, it's kind of like, I gotta show them what defensive behavior looks like. Well I'm not gonna, well actually, like all this shit, there are plenty of smart ways to hide defensiveness in a way that somebody else won't catch. Well not only that, well actually, these are often like turnarounds that are just like, whoa, don't, look over here, look over here, hmm. I'm not doing that, it's all the same shit. It's saying, hey, are you feeling some fear around this? Are you worried that I'm judging you because you're behaving kind of defensively? What I'm not to being defensive? Well now you're behaving more defensively, when I talked about defense, like what's the underlying emotion here? And the defensiveness is such a weird like shutter the house and like just don't even fuckin' see the perspective of this situation at all. PS you are paying me money to challenge your bullshit stories, then I do it, then you tell me how you're not doing it, it's my job to uncover this, and then if I keep going, you make me into some sort of like, what attacking asshole monster. May I remind you, you're paying me to do my duty. I mean I could back off and keep the money, but that doesn't match my values. I don't like that situation, but it's not about me. I'm doing what this person hired me to do and that sometimes needs a horn lock. And I kind of gotta, win, quote unquote, in order for them to know where, like, to be contained and ride out that emotion and quit acting from it because it's zero consequences with me. In the world, there are big consequences for that kind of fuckin' behavior, particularly in the workplace. But it just kills joy across the board, kills it.
Yeah. I'm gonna ask you a question about defensiveness because I absolutely hear what you're saying and I have seen, and I'm sure I've done it, countless times myself, where I will not use the language of, I'm not being defensive, 'cause-
Of course that's not sophisticated enough for you.
[Celine] Right? I mean that yeah, I'm like, that's obvious I would never use that language. And especially like when my mom was alive, there are so, so much defensiveness just couched an entirely different language.
That's right.
I'm not, this is not me throwing stones and I wanna acknowledge that because I don't want this to seem like, oh, I would never be defensive, like that's oh-
No, no. I love, I could see on your face you're actually like, you're letting yourself be challenged in this moment and you're delighted by it, I can see that on your face.
This is the, this is how I live my life, challenge me as much as humanly possible. Make me think about things, I love when people make me think about things in a different way that is like my sweet spot.
Totally.
So I say this because for sure, for someone like me who would not be thinking or responding with, I'm not defensive, I am going to be more, and my brain is gonna do the mental gymnastics to make sure that I'm not thinking I'm defensive in any way, shape or form. So even inside my own brain, it's not coming from that place. How can we recognize or change or something that narrative because, I think if the thought is, or the starting point is I'm not defensive, it is easier, I'm not saying it's easy, it's easier to potentially, I don't know, shift that something that if someone has the 87 mental gymnastics steps that they've gone through, that I have definitely gone through before that shows up.
I agree with you, I think it is easier if someone's just like, I'm not defensive. In the DBT, the dialectics that I teach from actually, though, I'm pretty sure I made this up, but the DBT term is willfulness. When we behave in ways that we know bite us in the ass later. Like that switch flipping and we just act the asshole, that kind of thing.
I'm only laughing because I, my dad used to say growing up one of his sayings was cut off your nose to spite your face. That is exactly what you're talking about. This is the cut off your nose to spite your face behavior.
Dude, that quote is in the DBT manual. Yes.
Is it really?
Yes.
I love it.
Shoot yourself in the foot, cut your nose off to spite, they're all violent, it's fuckin' gross. Cut your nose off to spite your face, that's so fucked up. Anyway, I call it the yeah-buts. Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but, that is defensiveness. And someone like you would never, once I tell you, you know, once you see in the videos that the yeah-but thing is the mark, you're gonna file that fuckin' away. You're never ever gonna say you're gonna go, it's a yes and or not a but, but an and, it's still a fucking yeah-but because you're just quick saying the thing I just said and then getting rid of it and then loading up fucking countering details, but in a very relaxed way.
Mmm.
So it's not charged or anything like that, you're like, well I can see where you're coming from and, like that gets around it, and what I've always thought is this and this. Yeah, I knowthat's what you've always fucking thought. That's what I'm fuck, and now the hope, unconscious, I will say, oftentimes unconscious, the hope is that you will drown me in details to where I fucking forget what my original fucking point even was about this. That you are now, you know, water falling details that are all very smart. When I work with people at this level, I actually have to put effort into both listening and dismissing and fucking remembering what I even asked. And a lot of times all authenticity is my thing. I'll be like, oh my fucking God, I don't even know what the fuck I asked. I'm drowning in minutiae that just flew outta your mouth and buried me without my consent. Like, or I'll be like Christ. Like if they, if I think that, you know, they're,
Yeah.
We have. To to do that, you know, it's individualized. But God dammit there is culture, particularly like intellectual business. Any of the higher up kind of stuff has so much intellectualizing and I don't care that it's smart, it's still a defense, izing, it's not intellectual, it's intellectualizing. That's a defense mechanism and it is still a way to get away from a feeling. So that's the bottom line answer to what you asked is, is there a raciness inside? Even if you're not portraying the raciness, I think that if we get used to sort of naming our feelings and we're willing to take an honest look at when we're defensive, if we're going look it for it, then even if you don't admit it to the person you're being defensive with, maybe you just like check in with your bod 'cause like in your stomach or something, there's gonna be like a little bit of a motor on it.
Yeah.
Or sometimes in your head, I don't know if this happens to you sometimes in your head. I'm like, actually I say most everything I think, but it starts in my head and I'll be like, wait, I don't even think I believe what I'm saying right now. Let me me walk that door.
You know, cause it's my, everything moves so fast and I think it, I believe it when I'm saying it. But then as I hear myself saying it, I'm like, no, no, no that's horseshit. Wait a second, wait, wait, wait. That is what I've always thought. But do I even think that anymore? I might not. I might not think that. Yeah. I also go think about that.
I'm laughing 'cause I do that in, I do that with clients where they'll, we're talk, we'll be brainstormed with talking about something, you know, talking through something and I will say something and I'm, it's not processing it, but I'm trying to explain it out loud. Let's call, whatever it is, whatever it is. And then I'll get to the end, I'll be like, no hold on. 'Cause I'm like, that's actually not, now that I've talked it through, I don't think that's the thing. Let me go back and this is the, so I, I laugh because I fully appreciate what you're talking about in terms of,as you are saying it or connecting with it or whatever it is that realization that, oh this, this is not true, this is not. And I think as I say this out loud, let me do this right now, I think it's actually part and parcel of why I personally love to be challenged because that rethink in a moment or that eye opening in a moment, whether it's from me, but especially when someone else does it, I am like, oh yeah, change all my belief. Like I love that and I think it's, I think it's a similar thing.
Yeah. Yeah. I love it 'cause it sticks too. That's one that doesn't necessarily need to be practice. It can be like a light switch moment of like, whoa, yeah, what? But I think most people appreciate when anyone does that. I think if you have the resilience and they, you know, you're not so fragile, you can be like, nah, I think I'm wrong about that.
That's not most people. I don't think that's most people though.
I agree and I think that even if somebody wants to do it, I think they worry that, that's gonna reduce their authority the next thing that they say. But I think the opposite is true. And if somebody brings that to me, well, you didn't believe the last thing you said, which doesn't happen, but if they were to do that, I'd be like, yeah, right. Which is why you ought to listen to this thing 'cause this one I'm solid on. But like, nobody does that because I think most people respect when someone's like, hang on a second. The honesty and the strength to do that I think is pretty universally respected. Which begs the question, why don't more fuckin' people do it? Well because I think most people don't like themselves enough to admit when they've made a mistake, even by their own assessment because they're carrying around shame so much of the time because mistakes aren't allowed. And, oh, I made a mistake but now I gotta hide it and now I have shame about hiding it and now the shame pushed down is spiking my anxiety. Oh, and now I just fucking did another thing that doesn't match my values 'cause I'm walking around anxious and shameful all the time. And then you're in the shit washing machine of it all.
Yeah.
Like. Shape and fear then whoo. It rules people's lives like their whole lives.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. There is research that's that it that has been done in organizational psychology that backs up exactly what you're saying. That is essentially, we actually respect people who rethink their opinions and thoughts and will take it back and will admit a mistake and will change and grow because it is growth in action. And yet individuals, even though collectively we respect it, individuals struggle to do it and they struggle to align with it. And that has always been fascinating to me. Truly, you know, again, my dad's saying, but one of the things that I've always said is I have strong opinions loosely held.
Yes.
And I mean that, right.
Yeah. Like, I will, I will have a big voice and I will fight and I will tell you my opinion and we can get into it and you give me better information, I am not married to my opinion at all.
Don't care.
Yes. Change it, let's go.
Not married to it, I say that all the time. Look, look, I'm just like, I'm, I'm getting an intuitive hit on this with your history. Is it this, like, I'm not married to it, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, I'm just like throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Yep.
You tell me.
Yep.
Yeah. And I think that's the difference between leadership, the people that will do it and the people that won't.
Agreed, totally agreed, totally agreed.
While we're on studies though, can I just say, I fucking said it a decade ago that these studies are gonna come out that say that people trust people who swear.
The curses. Actually makes them, it's more authentic. I've been sayin' this shit forever to justify my own existence, but I knew, and you know, the numbers don't have to be there for you to know truth, and truth tested with experience.
Absolutely, absolutely.
People gotta calm down about that.
I agree as someone who also swears a fair amount as you are aware, I agree with that. I adore you and I would like to have you back.
Anytime, anytime.
Because I feel like every time we have a conversation, there's so many more questions, you know what I mean? Like, I would like to, can you come back and we can talk about shame specifically and mistakes specifically. Can you do that? Do you wanna come back and do that?
Yes, yes, let's lump in perfectionism, all that.
Love it, all right. This will not be the last that any of the listeners or viewers see or hear of you because you're coming back and we have things to talk about.
Wonderful.
All the links for everything are gonna be in the show notes for anyone who's watching this, and it's-
Thank you.
Yeah, of course. Is it drjjkelly.com?
That's right, yeah.
See I, drjjkelly.com for if you're listening, Check her out cause she's amazing, I love you, thank you.
I'll be back, thank you too.
Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.