In this episode, Dr. J.J. Kelly, The Punk Rock Doc, talks to us about how to process anger, release emotions, and cut the bullshit to increase our emotional intelligence.
In this episode, licensed clinical psychologist, emotional intelligence skills training expert, and bestselling author of The Holy Shit Series, Dr. J.J. Kelly (aka The Punk Rock Doc), talks to us about how to process anger, release emotions, and cut the bullshit to increase our emotional intelligence.
Join us as we get into:
- The misunderstanding and avoidance of anger in our society
- Why anger is necessary and how to manage it well
- Dismantling systems that don't serve us
- The best time to go into conflict
- A simple formula for assertiveness
and so much more
Conversations with J.J. tend to leave a lasting impression and this one certainly does that -- it's the butt-kicking we didn't know we all needed!
Here's why it's particularly important for leaders:
"To be exposed to someone who doesn't crumble in the face of rage or anger is such a comforting redirect for people. They learn not everybody's gonna die if you're mad at them." Then, you can model for them how to act right and build their own emotional intelligence.
Listen in and see what this episode triggers for you.
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Dr. J.J. Kelly, The Punk Rock Doc, is a licensed clinical psychologist, emotional intelligence skills training expert, and bestselling author of The Holy Shit Series. J.J. is also the CEO & Founder of UnorthoDocs, Inc., a punk alternative to traditional psychotherapy. Dr. Kelly and the unortho “docs” live their lives with the belief that global healing is achieved by teaching people the skills to like themselves. “Happy People Act Right!” - Dr. J.J. Kelly, The Punk Rock Doc
You can learn more about or connect with J.J. on her website at https://www.drjjkelly.com/ or on Instagram @drjjkelly.
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is a familiar face to those of you who've been watching for a while and gonna be a familiar voice to those of you who listen. It's Dr. J. J. Kelly, also known as the Punk Rock Doc, who has been on the show a number of times and has recently written two new books to add to her collection: "Holy Shit, So This Is Anger?!: The Complete Guide to Honestly Assess & Effectively Manage Explosive & Implosive Anger - Without Toxic Positivity"; I really appreciate your commitment to the titles; and "Holy Shit, What Do Women Want?!: The Young Gentleman's Guide to Creating Love & Partnership." Thanks for coming back, JJ.
- And thanks for having me. That is a real thing. Like, I tried to pare that down many times, but I just had to say everything in there that I wanted to say.
- I appreciate it. I like that there's clarity. You know what you're getting into. When you read the title, you're like... This is one of those times when you are judging a book by the cover.
- Well said, yeah, yeah.
- I know I said this right before we hit record. Also, I'm sure this conversation will go 1,000 different places, 'cause it always does with you, but what I said is I'd actually really like to talk about anger because, man, one, I think people don't understand anger a lotta times. I think they don't name it effectively. I think they don't know what it looks like, especially if it looks different than however they express anger. I think they don't know what to do when they feel anger. There's so much about it that's like, "Oh, we don't talk about that," or it's so over the top that then we avoid it.
- Yes, oh my gosh, that is a really decent summary of pretty much why I wrote the book, yeah, and what I would add to that is the spiritual bypassing and the toxic-positivity trend is driving me insane. You know, that's why I had to have that in there. There's implosive. There's explosive. People avoid talking about anger, because the explosive kind scares people, but my point is the implosive shit, the putting a lid on it and repressing anger for decades, makes it come out, like, sideways, and people do fucked-up shit then. And that I find scarier than the explosive kind, not that I'm excusing that. Violence happens from that too, so we don't... But I mean, that's the one that gets all the bad press that makes people avoid anger altogether when it's just a natural emotion that everyone has, so we wanna learn how to manage it effectively.
- Well, so this is just it, right? And I know we were talking about this a little bit before, but like, every emotion that we have, whatever it is, anger included, is information, so how do we express what we need to express in a way that is effective? 'Cause there's nothing wrong with anger itself as an emotion.
- That's right, right. In fact, it's so necessary and productive because anger is the emotion that signals to us that our boundaries are being crossed.
- Yeah.
- So that is pretty necessary for, like, even safety sometimes, emotional safety certainly, you know, not getting manipulated at work or anywhere. You know, you get a vibe from someone: "What? What're they doing right now? That's not okay with me. How they're speaking me, that's not okay with me. Like, do I say something? Do I let it go?" But you can't even get to that assessment and problem-solving without the validation, the naming of the emotion in the first place. People are in so much denial about it that they don't have any skills to effectively manage it when it does show up. Okay, who benefits? I'm always kinda asking these questions. Who benefits from us not having any emotional intelligence about the emotion that signals our boundaries are being crossed? You feel me?
- Yes, yes.
- Uh-uh, I'm almost impossible to manipulate, because of emotional intelligence. That's something that affords me high self-esteem, emotional health, physical health, freedom, a sense of freedom.
- Yeah.
- That scares people that don't have the same emotional health and well-being and skills for managing emotions.
- And as part of that is that ability to name it for what it is and be okay with it being anger. Please, push back on this. This is my belief. I'm not saying it's the truth. Also be able to separate it from hurt or from sadness because I think also, a lotta times, those things are behind how people are expressing anger and it's not actually anger.
- Totally. I actually have a whole section in the book about this because, in, like, psych grad school... Ha ha, what a shit show, by the way, but you didn't... Can you imagine a bunch of, like, mental health wannabes? Even the ones that're professional are so narcy and fucked up. Anyway, I have a whole section on this because it's taught as, like, a secondary emotion. I've always sorta thought it has a little bit of a invalidation of it as a primary... Primary/secondary, I never liked that language. Several emotions can happen at the same time, sure. I think there are cultural things. I talk about how, being Irish American and Midwestern, family of origin, that anger was an emotion that was acceptable in our family, whereas fear was not, so I still have to watch when somebody I care about might be, like, doing something that I think... They're harming themselves in some way, whether it be clients or personally. It scares me. My initial hit is fear. I'm worried about them, and then I'm, like, ready to yell at 'em, you know?
- Yes.
- But I know that because I don't deny. You know, people might have shame about admitting something like that 'cause they see it as a flaw. Well, in dialectics, with the Venn diagram, we don't do that kinda binary thinking. Everything is on a spectrum, and I've worked on that, so like, that's okay, and I get to have flaws. And is that even a flaw? You know what I mean?
- Yes.
- We can just be honest with ourselves: intention doesn't always translate to impact. The road to hell is paved with good... So you have to look at both: how I'm intending it, how it lands. Yeah, do people that know me know that I go there? Am I, like, rancid with my anger toward them? Absolutely not. They know that it's loving, but I still have a responsibility to know that I have a tendency to do that and to circle back a be like, "Hey, you know what? What you said scared me. That gave me a little fright for you. That's why I'm saying it like this." You know, we were saying about family you can't just say whatever. You gotta circle back and explain, and eat the shit sandwich and be like, "All right, I'm gonna calm down a little bit here with this. You just scared me. I'm worried about you doing something like that, and you know me. I go to pissed." So yes, we all come from a family system that encouraged certain emotions and discouraged others, and I think there are plenty of... Family is culture, or you know, ethnicity is culture. Race is culture. Where you grew up in the world... All that is... We're culture of one, right? And we come from different systems, and those systems encourage certain emotions and discourage certain emotions, which I think is such a pity because the ones that're discouraged are... People stay ignorant about it. They stay a blind spot. And the ones that're encouraged get overused and overgeneralized, and so they're still ignorant about the ones that they don't think they have, so that never gets enhanced, that emotional intelligence around the blind-spot systematically discouraged emotions. So it's a pity. All the emotions signal different things to us, and the amount of people that, like, try not to cry... And I get, you know, there are certain... You don't wanna cry at work much or shit like that. Okay, yes, and think about it. The body has a system where it lets liquid out of our eyeballs that, when we let that happen, it regulates our central nervous system, letting sad or mad, by the way, or fear... People cry for a bunch of different reasons, and the body physically helps your central nervous system calm down from it. Mind gets in the way of that process, people stuffing that shit. Try not peeing for a week, and see how your body does, ya know? Like, stuffing a cry is like that. Stuffing anger, even MDs, at this point, who are the last to get on board with emotions affecting physical stuff... That's not how they're trained. They, even, are like, "Anger, related to heart attacks," you know? Like, they're starting to catch up to the different physical things that're exacerbated by explosive or implosive anger.
- Yeah.
- TMJ... Is that right?
- Yeah.
- Yeah, the jaw stuff, oh my gosh, stuffed anger. Red flag, man. Headaches, and it's different for a lot of people, and it's similar for a lotta people, too. Ya see patterns enough, ya start, like, not definitely but asking about it: "Hey, you've had this jaw stuff for a while." "Oh, yeah, I gotta go to the dentist." "Yeah, uh-huh, go get your night guard, sure, um, but we might wanna talk about what is the inception of some of that stuff." And people wanna intellectualize and medicalize it and not talk about the stuff they can't definitely prove with a... "Prove." I mean, what the hell?
- Yeah, yep, so I wanna make a comment, and then I have a question. It's funny when you were talking about crying, specifically. I remember being... When I was a teenager, I was like, "I'm not gonna cry. I am going to control my tears." By the way, I do not recommend this to anyone.
- Because teenage girls mad cry and then people don't take them seriously, yes.
- So I was like, "I am not crying anymore," and I realized that I was really good at, like, not crying for a lotta sad... But there was a point where I was like, "Oh, when I am frustrated"-
- Frustrated .
- I am, to this day, a frustrated crier. Like, I have no issue crying in general now. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.
- Great.
- You know, except, maybe, in movie theaters. I do try and calm that down so I'm not, like, sobbing in the background.
- Public is a little bit different for folks.
- Right, but generally speaking, like, I'm totally... But frustrated crying, it's still the thing that, the minute I'm frustrated, I can be... And it can be small things: in a restaurant, they don't have something I wanna eat when I'm really, really hungry, and I just can't make the decision. Cry, a frustrated cry, right? Like, it's so interesting, and I just point that out because I think we... That is a form that can be turned into anger, but there's nothing wrong with identifying that and knowing what that is, and also, angry criers, the other times I cry... That's why I'm saying it. To me, that's often the route to anger at a certain point, but it's, like, that has always been a consistent thing for me, and it's fascinating to me how rarely we talk about crying as part of things like anger or frustration.
- Fear.
- Or fear. Like, obviously, it's fine to... Crying anytime, we're fine, but like, it's not just sadness. It is just "there are too many emotions. How do I get out of you?"
- Yeah, it's a tension reliever. Something about the body says, "Ooh, too much tension. I need a release of some kind," and it's a release of tension.
- Yep. Yep.
- Is your question related to that? Or is it something else? 'Cause I wanna go in on that a little.
- It was something else, so go in on this.
- Okay, yeah.
- We can go all over the place 'cause this is what we do.
- I might interpret that you continue to be a frustrated crier. I bet you might be missing anger or stuffing anger more than you want to be in general so it comes out in the frustrated. Like, are you... If you were my client, I would wanna check out your skills around expressing anger, like, a medium amount of anger, not little shit, the bigger stuff, how skilled you are at expressing that in general, because someone like you could do it without crying. Now, forget the hangry stuff. Like, that's extreme, you know? Like, if you always cried in that situation, I would go after that in any way, but knowing you a little bit, too, I would bet that you are a little bit uncomfortable with, like, medium to high levels of anger and would try to find conflict resolution in a way that maybe you don't say how pissed you are.
- I think that's a very reasonable... Especially when it gets into higher levels of anger, I will try and deal with things long before it gets to that.
- Yeah, well, that's strategic and smart, yeah.
- I mean, I don't frustrated cry that often, but I don't always express what I need to express effectively before it would get to that point, which is when that would come out. But I do try and be like... I don't want it to get to that point, 'cause that is not always productive and, at that point, for me, it's often that it's small things that've built up that I haven't dealt with that get me to that point.
- Totally, that's one. Two is, sometimes, offenses happen, like, right then and there and there's no lead-up.
- Yes, medium anger, in those, I am okay with because that is the... And I will acknowledge I'm 100% that person that gets, like, that hyperfocus very calm, like, "Okay, let's get into this," in a way that-
- Do you say you're pissed in those situations?
- Oh, I mean, I don't use the language of pissed, but I will be like, "Do you ?"
- Do you say angry?
- I will... Good question.
- I bet you don't.
- I don't know that I don't.
- That's why I'm asking.
- No, I probably don't, but I will call behavior out in a way where it's like, "You do understand how offensive that is," right?
- See, I don't teach that.
- Yeah, no, that's fair.
- Because that is to focus on the other person and it misses the validation, the internal-validation part, of, like, naming the emotion, yeah. And then your thing second, but like, it may not... "You do realize how offensive that is." Um, they might not, and you don't get to define what offensive is in a factual way. It has to be, like, "I think that"-
- "Am offended by this because."
- Yes: "You're pissing me off, talking to me like that. You're making me really angry with how you're talking to me right now." Like, there can be professional ways: "More professional." I think it's white, but you know, whatever. I tend to go right... But I don't freak out on people. I'll be like, "You're pissing me off right now. Please, stop talking to me like that, or I'm gonna leave." Like, I see no problem with that kinda thing, even in a professional environment. Now, you might disagree, and reasonable people can disagree. We all have our own style. We all have different ways that we behave that match our values. Our values can differ. Fine to all of that. The overall point is most people don't say the words and then do the problem-solving. Validate. Then problem-solve. Acceptance, then change. And then they miss knowing that emotional intelligence that comes with knowing what they're even feeling.
- So, I agree with that. I very much agree with that. I just wanna note that: 100%. I don't think this is a right-or-wrong. I think the difference in how I would say, in a professional setting, that I would manage it or deal with it, because the example I was giving was more in a professional setting... I will tell someone in my family or, you know, a partner or a really good friend. I'll be like, "You"... That's when I will say, "Pissing me off," like, "That really pisses me off. Let's not"-
- That's great.
- Or frustrated or whatever.
- That's perfectly fine for .
- Annoying, whatever. What I usually would... How I would do it and, often, how I will suggest people to do it in a professional setting is... And this is an opinion. I'm not saying this is the truth. I think it's less important that the other person hear that I feel this way, because what often happens in a professional setting is that then the person, and I really hate to... This is just the reality of my experience is that, because of how hypermasculine patriarchal workplaces are, they shut down. As soon as you say, you know, "That made me angry. I feel something about this," they will shut down, so in my experience, in order for this to become productive, it's often more effective to acknowledge what the feeling is for me internally. It doesn't matter as much if it gets said out loud. If I know that you've pissed me off, then I can navigate that. If I haven't acknowledged it, I'm gonna navigate it shitty all the time because I don't know what I'm feeling, but if I've acknowledged it for myself-
- Silently works, too, yes.
- Then I can navigate this differently without having to say the word in the moment or having to say it to the other person.
- That is my exact point: within a patriarchal white supremacy culture, yeah. But then the solution is to adhere to that and do the hypermasculine in order to be effective? I mean, you can make an argument for that. I wanna change something within there, and you possibly facilitate doing that later, which I respect. I don't want this whole thing to continue to be hypermasculine, and I actually think the patriarchy hurts men so much because they don't do this either. I mean, I do work with corporate people who do the "I'm"... Maybe it's not "pissed." Maybe it's frustrated. Maybe it's annoyed. But do name the emotion within the corporate environment in a way that matches your values and the company's values.
- Yep, yep.
- I do think that has to change and that it will benefit everyone.
- And I agree with you. I'm not saying you do this to continue to support this long-term.
- I know. I know.
- By any stretch.
- Yeah, I know.
- If someone is unwilling to hear and it's gonna shut a conversation down, it's gonna make you less effective in the moment that you need to be effective, I also don't think it's necessarily the time to step into it if it's not gonna actually do what you hope it's gonna do, and I think, unfortunately, that happens a lot. And I think the other thing is that the people who are more often willing to use that language, to say, "I'm feeling this way," are women or are people of color, and then they are dismissed, and it actually makes it worse inside these structures. Does that make sense?
- Well, I don't know about "makes it worse." I get the effectiveness thing.
- For them. For them. The burden for them is more what I meant, sorry.
- Yeah, and that's victim-blaming.
- Okay.
- I think. I hear what you're saying, and I think it's fucked.
- Listen, I'm not justifying it. I just think that that's often what happens.
- I mean, do you know how many people try to dismiss my... I mean, it's only for the doctor title that anybody in situations of, like, high-up male white, that they even listen to me, because having the doctor title is part of this structure that commands respect as if what I do and say doesn't command respect. Come on, but yeah, I know what you're saying. That's a reason to go into hella debt to get the doctor title, 'cause that's what works in an imperfect system, so yes, we are agreeing on more than we're disagreeing.
- Oh, absolutely.
- I don't even think we disagree. I think we approach it differently. I'm a little older. I'm saying the older not 'cause I'm wiser, 'cause I'm less tolerant.
- I mean, I would also go with wiser, but I'll take less tolerant if that's where you wanna go.
- And I just ain't got no time for bullshit anymore, and the doctor title affords me some, like, leeway in this.
- I do agree with that, and I think that part of it is you do... And I think it's a wonderful thing to have that leeway to be able to say that and to be that direct and change it. If I think of people I've worked with or who work in organizations, especially those who are women or people of color, if they say that-
- Oh, if I were a Black woman, I'd be fucked.
- Right, and they don't have a doctor title, their reputation is damaged in a different way, so a lot of what we talk about is, like, you need to know what you're feeling, but then how can you express that in a way that lands for that person so you can continue to be effective? And then you know, we'll, hopefully, go back and move it along and change it in other ways, but I think it's why it's so important that you have your doctor title and you do speak into these things and you have the opportunities to speak into these things with people, because not everyone has that leeway.
- Yeah, yeah, it's a way to use privilege for good.
- And look, it's gonna take... I mean, I sincerely, truly more than anything hope that these systems change. As slow as it might feel sometimes, I really do hope they do, and it is going to take all these different approaches to change them. Sadly, there's not one thing that's gonna be like, "This is the approach," and it all changes. It's gonna come from everywhere.
- Totally, and enough times. Like, the repetition of it in different models but saying basically the same thing over and over.
- Yeah.
- Speaking of dialectics, the Venn diagram, I think the one-two punch of you with me, ya know, back and forth... You give 'em a little bit more... I don't know what: tolerance or something. And then I hit 'em in the body, ya know?
- Those body shots.
- Yeah, totally. And you know, the funny thing is, too, like, I thrive in a lot of masculine environments too just with my personality, and so it is a nice...
- Ya know, we can always find ways to connect. And then I do think humor helps the medicine go down a little bit, busting chops, you know? Like, most people expect that from me just with my personality so that, when I do it, they're not that surprised, and even if they are surprised by what I actually said, they're not that surprised that, like, some sort of humor-shaming chops-busting thing flew outta my mouth.
- Course.
- And then they're the weak link in their own version of the patriarchy if they don't also laugh, you know? Like, there's method to the madness, too.
- Yeah, yeah, there is no... I've never had a doubt that there was method to your madness, JJ.
- I'm really glad 'cause many people do, but I am. I'm, like, thinking of like 12 different things when I'm with somebody in each moment, like what is the approach here. I mean, yeah, and it's great. I just noticed this week, too. I told my brother. I was like, "I am on fucking fire this week." Like, how have I... Every time I think, like, "Oh, this is great to be so good at this"... I mean, of course, everybody levels up if they're, like, putting effort into their own growth in any realm. I'm still consistently surprised at a leveling up, though, and delighted, of course, but I would love to know how it happens so I can recreate it quicker or something. I don't know.
- Yeah.
- But maybe that's controlling. I don't know, but I'd noticed that, you know, it's thrilling to, like, be able to cut to it quicker, just less bullshit. And you know, when you develop relationships and you get to know people, that automatically happens where you can just go it a little harder and they can... I have to judge whether they can take it. I want it to be disruptive and uncomfortable but not tank them, ya know? So I'm always kinda doing this balance of discomfort/tension, but I don't wanna hurt 'em. I don't want them to shut down as you were saying, yeah, but that tension is important all the time; otherwise, I'm just, like, taking money to enable people in their own bullshit, and that doesn't sit right with me, so.
- That concept of tension and creating tension, I think, is really interesting because I think a lot of people don't create... They avoid even creating a tiny bit of tension, often because they are afraid of someone being angry and retaliating or whatever, being vindictive, whatever it is, and so they create no tension.
- That's right.
- And they don't talk about anything, and they don't get into any... And then it's just avoidant, avoidant. Ultimately, implosive anger comes out at the end of all of that.
- And self-betrayal. That causes shame, which is, actually, probably the next book. Shame is such a sneaky one. They've betrayed themselves. It's required for consistent pleaser behavior. Self-betrayal is required, and that is never shame-free, and then they gotta hide shame away 'cause it's so uncomfortable to feel shame, and then that spikes anxiety. So then that increases their chances of acting in a way that doesn't match their values again.
- Yeah.
- So yes, the avoidance of even little bits of conflict... I'm constantly teaching go into conflict while you're still scared. You get the courage points that build self-esteem and confidence from that. It often goes better because people wait too long and then they use anger as fuel, which completely takes the fear away, so now they're in this righteous-anger place and now they're bound to say something that doesn't match their values that they regret later. Any asshole without courage can fuel a fucking conflict with anger and rage. Everyone can do that, but then you're more likely to erode your self-esteem than if you did it when you were scared. And then the courage builds your self-esteem. You get to be proud of your behavior for doing the scary thing, plus you plan it out. You know, I'll give people the steps to how to say the thing. You plan it out a little bit so, when you're scared, you don't say so many words and water the whole thing down. Less words is almost always effective, which is why anger as fuel works so beautifully, 'cause people don't do that hella-words thing that waters it down. They go right to the bone, but they overshoot it 'cause they haven't built any skills for how to do that kinda thing.
- Yeah.
- With this profession, people have been raging out at me or passive-aggressively taking digs at me for over 20 years. I see it coming before they even know what they're doing, so an ability to not take that personally... Like, they're projecting stuff. That's the role, right? Like, project your mom stuff or project your boss stuff or whatever. I said a word that you don't like that some teacher said to you that shamed you in second... So I hold all this stuff and don't take it personally so that we can stay clear and be like, "Hang on. Hang on. Is this even about me right now? I can see you're angry. Let's talk about what it's about." And then to be exposed to someone who doesn't crumble in the face of rage or anger is such a comforting sort of redirect for people, ya know? Like, not everybody's gonna die if you're mad at them. If more people have skills about how to, like... Christ, there are a million things to be mad at. You think it's the thing out there's fault? What we're mad at resides within, and then the triggers flare that up. Our triggers are our responsibility, not other people's responsibility: "Oh, you just triggered me." "Yeah, so what are you gonna do about it? Quit implying that it's my job to manage your triggers." Even as a shrink, it's not my job to manage your emotions. I can teach you how to do that. I can model for you how not to be reactive to your bullshit, but it would be codependent for me to do it for you. That's not healthy. I'm not gonna enable that. You sit with your discomfort. Yeah, you oughta feel some shame about what you just said to me.
- Yeah.
- Now let's go back. Take a couple of breaths. If you had a redo of how to handle this, what would you say instead? What matches your values. Now we've regulated the emotion a little bit... I've validated that you have the emotion. Did not validate the behavior, and now hey, let's do the redo. You can do that in life all the time. If you're ever up at night ruminating, "oh, I fucking shoulda said this. That asshole, I'm gonna give him a piece of my mind"... Any kinda nighttime rumination is usually pissed. It could be fear, but usually, rumination is pissed, so then go back: "How would I deal with this if it happened for the first time tomorrow? I wanna say how it made me feel. I wanna ask for something or say no to something," and then say why if you even say why. You could just make the request: "Please, don't speak to me that way again." And then you could... "Well, I think our relationship'll go much more smoothly when we communicate with mutual respect." That can be taught. It's actually pretty simple, that kind of assertiveness formula, and when you get exposed to your own anger or other people's anger, you build your emotional intelligence around how to manage it. It's the only way. Denial doesn't get you more intelligent about anything. It keeps it a blind spot. Well, you keep yourself ignorant. Smart people do that all the time. It's the dumbest thing ever.
- Yep, oh yes.
- Yeah, and then make up really smart-sounding bullshit. It's still bullshit. I deal with geniuses all the time that do dumb shit.
- 'Cause we're all human at the end of the day, like it or not, sadly.
- Yes, we all have defenses. Emotions are not encouraged. I mean, much more so with female-bodied people, but in general; you're saying, too; even when it's a woman and especially if it's a woman of color. Add queer in there, too, anything that's non-majority, and then you're gonna get dismissed for being emotionally intelligent unless you're bombastic like me and you follow up and you're like, "Hey, do not dismiss what I just said. Me feeling frustrated by what you said to me is actually a pretty natural emotion, considering the dickish thing you just said to me."
- Right.
- Most people are not willing to do... I've so many years of practice, but like, sometimes, that is the only thing... It, like, surprises them, you know? It, like, stops them in their tracks. They'd never had that happen before, and you only have that element of surprise, kinda, once with people.
- Yep, I think it's that... Oh my God. I know we have to wrap in a minute, and there's 100,000 things that I wanna say, per usual. I think people are so afraid of what someone else might do if they were to have a conversation like that, and I think so many people will hear something like "don't talk to me that way," and the people-pleaser in them goes, "Okay, cool." And they don't acknowledge that they're upset at that or pissed or have a reaction, and they people-please, and they're like, "Yeah, of course." And then it builds resentment, and then it comes out another... And I think there's so many layers that build up from that because people take things personally. One of the things that you said was you don't take things personally, and I strongly resonate with that. I point it out to people all time, ya know, and I'm always like, "I know it's not about me." And I will say that to people: "I know this isn't about me, so let's have this conversation because, if it was about me, we'd have a very different conversation, but I know it's not."
- Yes.
- There's not a lot of people who don't take everything personally, who don't jump to that immediately. I was talking to my best friend about this a few days ago. A legal situation has nothing to do with her. It's, like, a building, flat situation, and she was like, "It feels like a personal attack."
- That's not a feeling.
- Well, yes.
- Thought, and that's a whole other conversation, yes.
- The point was that she was taking it personally, and I was like, "You need to explore that. Like, what is going on?" But most people can't even acknowledge it.
- Right, there's probably some fear in there, ya know: "Oh, geez, that surprised me, not in a pleasant way." That can be fear, or she's pissed and not knowing it or admitting it. Ya know, once you have this light bulb moment of, like, "oh, people really are just saying shit, mostly, about their own programming and their own life experiences, and they're just barfing that stuff on everybody that's around them, because they don't have any emotional intelligence," all that is true, and even that truth can create shame and pretending like they do have emotional intelligence, which is going backward. We have to admit we don't have any. I thought the pandemic did that pretty nicely because people are day-drinking and wanting to kill their family. Like, there was a rise in "oh, I need some help," and then they flooded a mental health system that's, in my opinion, pretty fucked. But at least they know: "Hey, I don't have any emotional intelligence skills." "Great, here. Like, let's get some." But if they're people in positions of privilege and power that're like, "No, I have that. I took a class, and now I have emotional intelligence, and now I can teach emotional intelligence," yeah right, bullshit. The admission of not having the knowledge allows for the curiosity about learning, but so many smart people are so insecure that they wanna cover up any sort of knowledge they don't have. There's so much knowledge out there. We don't know everything. What? Go, yes.
- So, as you said that... Part of that, I think, is what happens when, you know, someone says to you, like, "Don't talk to me like that" or "I really don't appreciate that" or "I feel this way," and I think that lack of curiosity is the reason they people-please. They go, "Okay." They're not even curious about what their own reaction is, and I think that that is such a important point that just applies in so many ways inside of this is, like, if we are curious about our own reaction, even when someone says that, do you know... Just that would break so much of the cycle.
- Oh yeah, it slows it down. I don't even fault people for that instant fear that either makes them people-please to make it go away or react and demonize the person, like, one way or... That is a natural primal impulse, but we, as emotionally intelligent, potentially, human beings, could learn to move past the primal into something a little more sophisticated, like emotional intelligence. And it's not like I don't have that. When someone comes to me... People consistently think I like to fight. I don't. It scares me too.
- Course.
- It's just I more through that in order to make this interaction a teaching point. That's my job. That's how I sleep at night is to not be reactive with people paying me to teach 'em how to be nonreactive.
- I mean, what the fuck?
- Yep.
- And even seeing that can be enlightening, but curiosity and admission of not knowing everything is so damn freeing. I wish more geniuses would do that 'cause that's true genius, I think, is knowing you don't know everything and then also, I think, being able to break down, really, really complex concepts into something that a layperson can understand. I think there's genius in that as well. But yeah, the curiosity and fear and anger, they just take it away.
- Yeah.
- Curiosity slows down all the reaction in favor of learning, educating.
- I agree.
- Hmm, pleasant conversation, thank you.
- Thank you for having this conversation with me. We'll do this again soon because I just really like talking to you and it's always interesting and goes unexpected places, so thank you.
- Agreed.
- For coming on the show, and we'll link your books and link your site and link you in all of the notes.
- 'Kay, and link you too. What a pleasure, thanks, Celine.
- Thank you. Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please, take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.