In this episode, former trial lawyer turned peacemaker Doug Noll explains why leaders who rely on logic and rationality during a crisis are fighting basic neuroscience, and teaches a simple two-word technique that calms any nervous system in under two minutes. He backs it up with a remarkable story from his decade working in maximum-security prisons, where the same skill helped a woman serving 25-to-life reconnect with the son she hadn't heard from in 18 years.
Most leaders try to manage a crisis with logic; it rarely works. In this episode of Leading Through Crisis, host Céline Williams sits down with Doug Noll — a former trial lawyer, peacemaker, and author of De-Escalate — who spent over a decade teaching maximum-security inmates how to stop fights before they start.
Doug breaks down the neuroscience of conflict: why 95% of the brain is emotional (not rational), why the prefrontal cortex shuts down under threat, and why leading through logic during a crisis is fighting biology itself.
He introduces a simple, research-backed technique called affect labeling (saying "you feel" and naming someone's emotion) that can calm a nervous system in under two minutes, whether you're in a boardroom, a family crisis, or a prison yard.
Along the way, Doug shares one of the most powerful stories from his 10 years working in California and Connecticut prisons: a woman serving a 25-to-life sentence who used this exact skill to reconnect with the son she had relinquished 18 years earlier.
If you're a business owner, executive, or leader who wants practical tools for leading through change, conflict, and crisis — not just theory — this conversation will change how you show up in every hard conversation you have next.
—
Douglas E. Noll, JD, MA, is a lawyer-turned-peacemaker. He is an award-winning author, teacher, trainer, and highly experienced mediator. Doug’s work carries him from international work to helping people resolve deep interpersonal and ideological conflicts. His training has included everything from teaching life inmates to be peacemakers and mediators in maximum-security prisons to training analysts at the Congressional Budget Office how to de-escalate members of Congress and staff.
You can learn more at https://dougnoll.com. The special site with resources for our listeners, https://dougnoll.co/crisis, goes live August 17th.
You can also connect with Doug on...
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougnoll/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DouglasNoll
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/douglasenoll/
Or subscribe to his YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtAHXdBT1Y0Pl7SGrM_HcFw
Doug's new book, Empathy Leadership, comes out at the beginning of September. Pre-order here: https://dougnoll.com/books/empathy-leadership
Doug Noll: [00:00:00] And that's what I offer people.
Doug Noll: A whole different way of being with each other that eliminates fights and arguments and tension and difficult conversations and conflict avoidance
Judith: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
Céline Williams: Imagine walking into a maximum security prison and entering a concrete room with no windows. In front of you are 15 cages. Each cage has a man inside, shackled hands and feet. They are former gang members. Each of them has killed another human being. These [00:01:00] are your students, and your job is to teach them how to stop fights, arguments, and violence in their prison.
That is one of the many incredible assignments my guest has taken on in his long career as a lawyer and a peacemaker, and one of the many stories I have no doubt we will hear today. Doug Noll, it's a pleasure to have you on the show.
Doug Noll: Céline, I am so honored. And may I say, for
Céline Williams: Yes
Doug Noll: that's listening, give Céline and this show a five-star review right now. You can do it while you're listening. The only way amazing shows like this get visibility is because you, who are listening, give it a vote. So please do so right now
Céline Williams: So before we get into the stories, which I'm very excited to hear more about you and to share more about you with the folks who are listening or watching this, the, the thing I always start with, the question I always start with is, the name of the show is Leading Through Crisis.
When you hear [00:02:00] that phrase, what comes up for you, or what does that mean to you?
Doug Noll: Hmm. So interesting, because I have led through many crises and
Céline Williams: That intro tells me that that is in fact the case, yeah
Doug Noll: What-- when I think of leading through crisis, first of all, I think that there are many, many very strong and intense emotions in the room, and your job as a leader is to recognize all about leading nervous systems, not people. If you're leading people, you are not gonna get through that crisis whole. Lead nervous systems and engage in nervous system management, and the odds of getting through the crisis rise dramatically
Céline Williams: That is a very interesting and unique take in the best way possible, because I don't think anyone in over
100 of these has [00:03:00] ever started with lead nervous systems. So I'm gonna ask the question: can you tell me more about what that means when you talk about it? Because I bet people are like, "Leading nervous systems? What? That's not... What does that even mean? How does that show up? What is that?" So I'd love your perspective on it, 'cause I think it's really unique in the best way
Doug Noll: The, um, first of all, by way of background, I am a former trial lawyer. I did that for 22 years. Mid-career, went back to school, got my master's degree in peacemaking and conflict studies. Quit the practice of law in 2000 to become a peacemaker. Professionally, among many other things that I do, I get called into really intense conflicts, oftentimes at crisis level.
The one thing that all conflicts, fights, arguments, and crises have in common is that they're dominated by emotions.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm
Doug Noll: So here's the thing to understand. Our human [00:04:00] brains are constantly asking three questions: Am I safe? Can I trust you? Do I matter? When we get into a crisis, the threat response goes off from the amygdala into the hypothalamus, and the first thing that happens is the prefrontal cortex completely shuts down.
When cortisol is released into the bloodstream, the immune system is shut off, our digestive system is shut off, our prefrontal cortex is shut off, blood flow increases to the periphery to run or to fight, and all we focus on, we get tunnel vision, and all we focus on is the threat. We're gonna either run from it, or we're gonna fight it. Now think about that. Our brains can't distinguish between a saber-tooth tiger and a crisis of some kind, or a
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Doug Noll: or a fight or argument. It
cannot distinguish between those two, so-- and its reaction, the threat reaction, is exactly the same. [00:05:00] How well think a person in that state is gonna be res- is, is going to respond to leading through logic or leading through persuasion or leading through, I don't know, strategic thinking? Not going to happen, period. So when I talk about nervous sy- system leadership, what I'm trying to do is to get leaders to understand that they influence what's going on in the nervous systems around them, and that if they're not paying attention to the nervous systems and how those nervous systems are reacting, they are not going to be effective.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Doug Noll: It's much more important to pay attention to nervous systems than it is to anything else.
Céline Williams: 嗯。
Doug Noll: We were talking before the show, and I said that, you know, most leaders only lead 5% of the brain, the part
Céline Williams: Yes
Doug Noll: is the critical thinking, deliberative thinking part of the brain. I, I don't even use the word rationality 'cause there is no such thing as rationality. [00:06:00] Here's the problem: 95% of our brain, the emotional side of our brain, the threat status side of our brain, has the veto power over the 5%, and it will veto that 5% right away with the slightest provocation. We should be leading the 95%, not the 5%, and we do that through nervous system leadership
Céline Williams: I am curious 'cause I, I think that's incredibly insightful, and before we hit record, we were in agreement that, the, this idea of rationality and, you know, people being like, "Oh, I'm so logical and rational," is l- is bullcrap 'cause we're all emotional.
And yet we continue to see leaders who do not, who are, whether it's that they don't know how or they're uncomfortable leading anything but what they perceive or have decided is rational, it, so it doesn't happen.
And I'm [00:07:00] curious, from your perspective and your experience, when, if someone's response is like, "What would I, where would I even start? Like, what does that mean?" Because they have this idea that you can't lead emotions, and emotions, you know, there's no crying in baseball, and emotions are whatever, that they don't even know where to start.
What would you say to someone who hears that and is like, "I don't know what that is"?
Doug Noll: The first thing I'm gonna do is ask a simple question.
Céline Williams: mmmm
Doug Noll: So Céline, remember when you were a little girl, maybe two or three years old, and you
were running around, and you fell down, and you skinned your knee and started to cry. What were you told?
Céline Williams: Ooh
Doug Noll: Do you remember?
Céline Williams: Everything would be okay, probably, that everything's gonna be okay. Yep.
Doug Noll: Be a g- big girl. Put on
Céline Williams: Yep
Doug Noll: panties. Guy- it's even worse for guys.
Céline Williams: Oh yeah.
Doug Noll: Here's the thing: the reason that leaders today can't relate to emotions is because they were taught from the time they were born that emotions are bad, [00:08:00] emotions make you weak, emotions are evil, they make you vulnerable. You can be exploited if you're emotional. Don't be emotional. You're, you're, you're, you were denied the right and the ability to emotionally mature in the way that the brain i- is designed to mature, and your emotional maturity stopped at between six and eight years old, when you were emotionally invalidated.
Because you learned very quickly that the world is an unsafe place
to be emotionally. So you build walls around yourself, and you only let a certain part of you become emotionally available. Well, if that's your upbringing, which it is for just about everybody, of course you're going to say that emotions are bad, emotions are weak, because that's what you were taught and trained.
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: It turns out that all of that is false.
And the reason that we have a drug addiction, and that we have the kinds of problems we have today with polarization, and the, and the reason that we have alienation, [00:09:00] and the reason that we have people in prison, is because of emotional invalidation more than anything else.
It's the
most inva- it's the most insidious, inva- pervasive form of abuse there is, and we all suffer from it. So the secret is to understand that we really are emotional beings, and emotions don't make us weak, they make us strong.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Doug Noll: Now all we have to do is learn a couple of really simple skills that changes the equation completely. It's not hard to do, doesn't take long to master, just really more mindset and practice more than anything else
Céline Williams: Are you willing to share what those skills are with us?
Doug Noll: Two words, you feel. So let's, let, let me give you an example. So I want you to think of a situation you had in the last couple of weeks that had some emotionality to it. Maybe some upset, frustration, something like that. Tell me the story
Céline Williams: Well, this is gonna be a little bit heavy, but,
Doug Noll: Doesn't matter
Céline Williams: [00:10:00] the, a very close family friend who I've known since I was born, died a week ago
Doug Noll: Wow. So there's this sudden death of a very close family friend, and you
were shocked,
Céline Williams: Yes. Saddened.
Doug Noll: You g-
Céline Williams: There...
Doug Noll: intense grief,
Céline Williams: Yes. Yep.
Doug Noll: Even a little anger, "How could they dare abandon me like that?"
Céline Williams: Well, and some guilt where it's like, "Ooh,
Doug Noll: abs-
Céline Williams: could've been there more."
Doug Noll: guilt
that you were not there, feeling like out of control, there's nothing I could've done about this.
Maybe there's something I should've done about this, so some
Céline Williams: Absolutely.
Doug Noll: And a deep loss of connection,
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Doug Noll: which was really hurtful and upsetting, distressing, and depressing.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Doug Noll: Anything else?
Céline Williams: Yeah. There was some relief that they're not suffering anymore.
Doug Noll: So
Céline Williams: there were also some,
Doug Noll: positive emotions.
Céline Williams: positive emotions.
Doug Noll: relieved that the suffering was [00:11:00] over
Céline Williams: Yes
Doug Noll: happy that you knew this person and had a life with them,
Céline Williams: And I have all the memories of that person
Doug Noll: memories to, and you're their life and how they led it. And as you think about that and think about your relationship, you feel warmth inside yourself
Céline Williams: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's an opportunity to feel that as part of the loss as well, is that
Doug Noll: That's right
Céline Williams: to feel the warmth and not just coexist with it
Doug Noll: Or throw it away
Céline Williams: or throw it away.
Doug Noll: Anything else?
Céline Williams: No, I think that's, that covers most of it, at least what comes to mind
Doug Noll: how did you experience that?
Céline Williams: Physically? Like in my body? Is that what you mean? Or just like-
Doug Noll: emotionally
Céline Williams: For lack of a better way of saying it, in my body there was both like quite literally like a heartwarming, chest warming, like where you kind of feel like you're... You can't really see my hands, but where you're kind of doing this, [00:12:00] like, like that internal, there's a moment of that.
And also that like weight coming off, so it feel from the relief, right? Like there's that, there's a lightness, and there's also a heaviness. It's like a cloud of sadness, 'cause there's grief and loss and, and disconnection. And, so it's almost like, this is gonna be a strange visual, but bear with me, 'cause you asked.
So it's almost like a cloud here and like a darkness because of the
Doug Noll: So you became aware of a cloud and darkness of s- of the sadness and grief and upset and depression of the loss,
Céline Williams: Yes
Doug Noll: of it, and you could l- literally feel it
Céline Williams: Yes.
Doug Noll: as something that is tangible
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: that maybe you weren't experiencing as much before.
Céline Williams: Yes
Doug Noll: did you notice a softness, your body softened and relaxed?
Céline Williams: Absolutely
Doug Noll: Yeah. right. So what I just did, to get back to the question, notice that when I... And for everybody that's listening and watching, notice that I [00:13:00] didn't try to problem solve. I didn't try to fix. I didn't try to say, "Oh, you poor thing." All I did was say, "You feel," and I named the emotions that are typically associated with grief and loss,
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Doug Noll: and notice how you reacted. You, you, you said, "Yes. That's right. Oh, yeah, and I felt guilt, and I felt this." By me naming your emotions, I quieted the centers of your brain associated with negative emotion, activated your right ventrolateral prefrontal cortex, which allow you to access more of what you were feeling, and that's where the statement around guilt came from because
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm
Doug Noll: not have been aware of that s- so completely as you were, which then allows you to experience even more emotion. And I keep labeling and labeling and labeling until we're done. That whole co- that whole process took two minutes.
Céline Williams: Yep
Doug Noll: That's how you do it. You feel. And all you, you just keep saying, "You feel." You'll get a reaction. "You'll feel. Tell me more. You feel, you [00:14:00] feel," until the person says, "Yeah, that's exactly how..."
This is what you did. "Exactly how I feel." Your shoulders dropped, you sighed a relief, and you nodded your head. Now
Céline Williams: Yep
Doug Noll: We're done. And all I have to do is say, "Anything else?" to make sure that it's complete.
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: between 90 and 120 seconds. It works on every single human brain. We're hardwired for this. Even people with Alzheimer's, people who have nothing left except emotion, respond to this.
Céline Williams: Hmm. Interesting
Doug Noll: and it is the fastest, most effective way of listening to calm a nervous system
Céline Williams: Hmm
Doug Noll: Nothing else is like it. There's nothing else out there, and I-- believe me, I have studied it all. There is nothing else out there that works like this does
Céline Williams: Yeah Why don't more people know about this, Doug?
Doug Noll: It's new knowledge.
Céline Williams: Okay. Oh, good. Okay
Doug Noll: 20 years old. The [00:15:00] seminal study came out in, in 2007. There are not a lot of people that are like me, who are scholar practitioners. I mean, I practice and I wanna get better. I've studied neuroscience for over 30 years now, and I'm one of those geeky guys that goes out and says, "What is really going on here?"
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: out and do the research. What does science say about what I'm observing?
And then I'll take that science and try to figure out, okay, this is describing what's going on. How does this relate to my work as a peacemaker in, and a, and a mediator helping people resolve conflict, or as a decision-maker me- people make better decisions? And so I'm able to synthesize this information. Not many other people do that kind of
work. And, and right now I'm one of the few voices out there that are really starting to talk about this in a, in a really practical, grounded, skill-based way. so that's why you haven't heard about it. We're-- That's why I'm on this [00:16:00] show,
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Doug Noll: the word,
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: That should no longer be the case. Everybody needs to know this. Parents, teachers, everybody
Céline Williams: Yes, they really do.
Doug Noll: especially.
And,
Céline Williams: yeah
Doug Noll: I'm focusing on leaders because leaders have the most influence.
Céline Williams: 100%.
Doug Noll: If you have a leader who's got a, a team of even five people, if I can teach this leader how to say you feel and engage in what I... In leadership empathy, which is what this is, five people are mimetic.
They're gonna start modeling the behavior that's given to them, and they're gonna take it home and start labeling and naming the emotions that their kids are having or that their partner is having, and they're gonna start, and it's gonna spread.
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: So where is the biggest leverage point? It's with people who already have influence, who are willing to change and transform their lives and the lives of people around them
Céline Williams: Absolutely. So it's really interesting because I [00:17:00] have, much to the chagrin of anyone who has known me for any length of time, I have been a very annoying broken record about two things. One of them is that w- you know, all feelings are good because they give us information, so we have to stop labeling a feeling as bad.
They're all good. They're all information. We need to feel them all for a reason. What we do with them, we might n- might not be the most effective way of expressing or whatever, but the feeling itself is neutral and information. We have to...
Doug Noll: are data,
Céline Williams: Yes,
Doug Noll: on a spreadsheet
Céline Williams: And then the other thing, and it's really interesting because y- the exercise that you shared, how this you feel, which I think is incredible, and I hope everyone...
First of all, I'm gonna start practicing it, but I also hope that everyone who's listening really hears and understands how impactful that is. Because one of the things that I have done with leaders I worked with for a long time is to have them acknowledge their [00:18:00] own feelings as part of a situation, right?
So when... Right. So when it's like, I'm gonna use COVID, not that it's my favorite exam- but it's just an easy one that everyone has some memory of, right? So COVID hits, and people are panicking, like, "I don't know what to do," and blah blah. And I kept saying to leaders, "If you say, like, 'Hey, I feel really scared,' or, 'I feel uncertain about what's happening,' and I know there's so many," and you start to acknowledge your experience and how you feel, people calm.
They, even if it's not the exact feeling, they're more likely to add on or calm down or feel part of something, rather than, "Nobody understands me," which is what was happening
Doug Noll: Right. By saying, "I feel," you are having exactly the same effect on your brain that you have when you say you feel to somebody else. You're inhibiting the centers of the brain associated with negative emotion, and you're reactivating your right ventral lateral prefrontal cortex, and you can literally calm yourself down in 90 seconds from
Céline Williams: Yes.
Doug Noll: [00:19:00] of
Céline Williams: Yep
Doug Noll: arousal.
And so saying, "I feel," is a really important skill. I typically teach people how to do third party or dyadic affect labeling, you feel, first because it's, it's easier, interestingly enough. And then once they get into that, then we can start talking about, okay, now let's start working with I feel. And you, and, and, and then, then the question becomes, do I do this out loud or do I do this internally?
And of course, it's always contextual. So we learn when is it
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: to do it out loud, when is it appropriate to keep it inside.
Céline Williams: Well, I love this because obviously many leaders were resistant to my ideas, um, because it was, I feel, and also sharing it with people. And the funny thing is the ones that did it, it did change the conversation significantly,
Doug Noll: does
Céline Williams: this is like the perfect way of doing it where it doesn't feel as unsafe to people, in my opin- I hear this and I'm like, I can see how leaders would be like, "This feels much safer."
Doug Noll: Right. key here, the key here is, [00:20:00] is emotional contagion. So let's take an example of where the leader is in a, a meeting. first of all, in a, in a meeting, the first thing I would do is I would take the temperature of the room and I would affect label the whole team. "So you guys are really frustrated, you're really angry. You feel really, really invisible and unheard, and you haven't been listened to. And you're pissed off because you're being blamed for results that you didn't have any authority to change, and it's extraordinarily frustrating to you." Then depending on the circumstances, said, "Well, let me tell you, I feel embarrassed and shamed that I didn't assert myself to the executives stronger to try to protect you.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Doug Noll: And was a lesson for me in moral accountability, and
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: really mad at myself because I didn't do that."
Céline Williams: Hmm
Doug Noll: I don't apolo- I'm not gonna apologize. I'm just gonna take... [00:21:00] N- now what happens is when I say that, I start to calm down and everybody else in the room starts to calm down because I've labeled them and now I'm labeling myself.
I'm calming down and they feel it and they calm down
Céline Williams: Yeah. It enables connection as part of that
Doug Noll: It is really the only way to connect
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Doug Noll: So let me tell you a story about when I first This really hit me, it hit home.
Céline Williams: I love stories. I was gonna make you tell me one anyways, so
Doug Noll: story that I tell a lot, it's, and it's the first story that came out of prison. For 10 years, I worked in maximum security prisons, co-founder of the Prison of Peace Project, training life and long-term inmates how to stop prison violence, as you said in the introduction. The very first prison we went into was the largest, most violent women's prison in the world, and we were standing in front of 15 women, Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, 30 years old to 65 years old, angry, skeptical, [00:22:00] disbelieving,
Céline Williams: Hmm. I bet
Doug Noll: and super not happy to see a white male man who is a lawyer.
Céline Williams: Yeah, you really, you went in with everything that was not...
Doug Noll: stacked
Céline Williams: Yep
Doug Noll: It's okay. They were curious, and that's all I cared about.
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: for the next five weeks, Laurel and I started teaching these women the basic skills that would eventually lead to them becoming mediators and peacemakers.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Doug Noll: And for five weeks, I didn't think we were making progress.
But I will say that the very first skill we teach in, even today, is how to listen to emotions. The technical term is called affect labeling. We teach them how to listen to and name emotions you feel. That's the foundational skill of peacemaking, and that's what we teach them. So we're five weeks into the program, not sure we're getting anywhere, and we walk in on that Wednesday morning in this dingy, dirty, filthy conference room deep in the bowels of this max, this prison [00:23:00] with all this violence. one of our students, Sarah, is sitting over in the corner, and she's crying, sobbing. is unusual
behavior. we walk over and kneel, Laurel kneels down next to her and says, "Sarah, what's going on?" And she tells us this story I've been in prison for 18 years. I'm serving a 25 to life for a fatal DUI.
I killed a family of four as a drunk driver. When I had to come to prison, I gave up my three-year-old son to my sister to raise, and I've written him a letter every single week for 18 years. He's never called me. He's never visited. He's never written back. Last week, I decided to write a different kind of letter to him, and I thought about what it must be like to have An imprisoned [00:24:00] killer as a mother Angry Enraged, sad, grief-stricken, confused, unloved, unlovable. So I wrote him a letter, and I named off all of what, what I thought his feelings were "Today, for the first time in 18 years, I got a letter back from him. And at the bottom of the letter, he said, 'I love you, Mom. I'm bringing my girlfriend, and we're going to come visit you in three weeks.'" And she was holding the letter in her hand, a crumpled piece of paper.
You could see how the, where the tears had stained the ink,
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: was over the word love, like she couldn't believe it was real. And that's when it hit me. We weren't teaching these women how to be peacemakers. We weren't just teaching them how to name emotions to calm people down. [00:25:00] We were helping them restore their own humanity themselves so they could connect to other members of their family. And it was the first story, and the most powerful story, of 10 years of working in prisons
Céline Williams: Yeah. That's incredible. That's, I, I mean What an incredible experience to have had and moment to know that this, this is making a difference. Like, this is making a difference, especially when you're at five weeks and you're thinking, "I don't know if this is working," which I imagine there was some of that happening to what you said earlier.
Doug Noll: Absolutely
Céline Williams: ever there was doubt, no longer
Doug Noll: And you know, Céline, we've heard the same stories over and over and over again in every different ki-- We work mostly in California and Connecticut prisons, and it's [00:26:00] the same everywhere. of disconnection reconnection once they learned how to say you feel. And if this can work in a prison, it's gonna work in your family, it's gonna work in your boardroom, it's gonna work in your crisis moment. There is nothing darker than a maximum security prison
Céline Williams: Yeah. And to one of the things that you said earlier about how, I, you used a better word than what I'm about to use, but how problematic and insidious the,
Doug Noll: Pervasive and insidious is
Céline Williams: Thank you.
Doug Noll: Pervasive, insidious abuse
Céline Williams: yes. To, to that point, you're gonna see for obvious ... We're, there's no place it's more evident than a prison system, right?
Where you really see the
Doug Noll: people
Céline Williams: That's right, you really see the extremes of all of it, unfortunately. And for it to have this kind of positive effect that you're obviously [00:27:00] still doing it and it's making a difference,
Doug Noll: Right
Céline Williams: that speaks volumes. That is the place. If it's gonna have an impact there, there is no boardroom on this earth that it's not gonna have an impact in.
Doug Noll: And it took me a while to figure that out. said, "Why am I just teaching this in prison? This should be taught everywhere," as I began to see the transformations. what led to my fourth book, "De-Escalate." And, know, I began to think about, how do I get this outside these prison walls into
the real world?
How
do I teach people that they don't have to have fights and arguments, that you never have to have a fight or argument again these simple skills? Counterintuitive, counter-normative, but simple. And so
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: life's mission has been since that time.
Céline Williams: I might start gifting your book to all of the conflict avoidant people that I know because,
Like, I'm not even kidding, but so much of, that I see in leaders in work that I do, but also just people, humans operating on this planet, the level [00:28:00] of conflict avoidance because they don't wanna deal with an argument, that it's so extreme
Doug Noll: Well, think about it. Of course it is. afraid of it.
Céline Williams: Sure
Doug Noll: But if you've been told that emotions are bad and you've never
had an emotional coach and nobody's ever told you how to manage emotions appropriately,
of course you're gonna be afraid of it. Of course you're gonna avoid it.
It's uncomfortable
Céline Williams: Yes
Doug Noll: you learn it's not, and that it's easy. Imagine walking into a room full of really angry people and knowing exactly what to say and how to say it your heart full of compassion zero anxiety. You know exactly what you're going to say, and you know exactly what's gonna happen. How would that make you feel?
Céline Williams: That's the dream, Doug. That is the dream for me all the time.
Doug Noll: is, it is
Céline Williams: that's it
Doug Noll: it is not a dream. It is a reality for every human being on this planet. not that hard to f- to do that. It really isn't. And the more you do it, the better you get at it, and the easier it [00:29:00] becomes, like riding a bicycle.
Céline Williams: Ja.
Doug Noll: and that's what I offer people.
Céline Williams: Ja
Doug Noll: us a whole different way of being with each other that eliminates fights and arguments and tension and difficult conversations and conflict avoidance
Céline Williams: I mean, I would... When I think about the impact that that would have on the world if everyone learned this and did that, it is extraordinary. It's extraordinary
Doug Noll: We would train 25 men a prison yard of 1,000, and within a year, that yard was a completely different place. Violence, I'm not gonna say there wasn't any,
Céline Williams: Sure
Doug Noll: but drastically reduced. And men behaving. We've had over 100 life inmates who graduated from our program and we certified as mediators and peacemakers, have been released on parole here in California. Not one of them has re-offended, and they're [00:30:00] all out in the community teaching people how to do this stuff
Céline Williams: Let's, we need to pause and emphasize how important that is because the rates of recidivism are extraordinary, especially in the US and in certain states, I know California's one of them. The typical rates of recidivism are really high.
Doug Noll: Mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: The fact that none of the people who graduated from your ... That is unheard of.
Doug Noll: inmates,
Céline Williams: Unheard of,
Doug Noll: somebody
Céline Williams: and I need everyone who is listening to or watching this to understand how extraordinary that is because you said it like it was no big deal, but that is extraordinary, Doug
Doug Noll: The point of it isn't how extraordinary it is, it's this is what it can do for you.
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: it do in your kitchen, on your teams,
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Doug Noll: crisis situations?
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Doug Noll: What can it do for you? It can change everything if you're willing to take the time to learn and listen. Learn
Céline Williams: [00:31:00] Yeah.
Doug Noll: Yeah
Céline Williams: what is the best way for people to learn more about this and to put this in action-
Doug Noll: I created a web page for everybody who's listening, and this is the only people in the world that will ever get there if they listen to this show or watch the show notes if you put this up. It's Doug Noll.co,
Céline Williams: Yep
Doug Noll: Doug Noll, D-O-U-G N-O-L-L.co/crisis. Go to the page and that will get you started.
You can get a free e-book. You can sign up for my Deescalate Academy, which is free. can buy my book. If you wanna take one of my online courses, you can do that. You can book a call with me talk to me about your problems. I'm ha- I never charge for calls, so just book a call. I'm happy to chat with anybody, who knows where it goes.
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: I'm available, you know, obviously, like all people like me and you, you know, we, we like to get up and talk to people. I love to tell my story. My, my thing is to spread a message, so keynotes, [00:32:00] workshops, roundtables, you know, all, e- everything to, to be able to share this gift with as many people as possible
Céline Williams: And it is a gift. And I want you to know, and anyone who is listening to this, that I am 100% going to be signing up to that webpage and downloading all of the things. So if anyone wants to do it with me, I will be doing this, 'cause I think this is... the impact that this can have is mind-boggling in the best way
Doug Noll: cannot be overstated. You're right.
Céline Williams: I really would like to talk to you for the next 47 hours about all of these things. Instead, I will probably just invite you back. But I feel like we didn't even get into all the stories, and I think that my guess is that I'm gonna get a lot of feedback from this of people being like, "We need more.
Tell us more about this." So I'll in- I'll be inviting you back. But before we do that, I'm gonna ask, is there anything that you really want to emphasize [00:33:00] or that we didn't get to that you wanna make sure you, you s- say on this platform today that you're like, "This is the thing"?
Doug Noll: No, I think we've covered it. I mean, just remember, really simple. feel,
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: name an emotion. And you only need, if you're dealing with upset, you only need five or six emotions. Actually, I teach people how to, uh, uh, an emotional database of about 30 or 40 emotions, which
are easy enough to learn. But, but if you just wanna start proxying, anger, frustration, disrespect, feeling unheard, invisible, unappreciated, unsupported, and worried or anxious or concerned. That's all you need.
Céline Williams: Yeah
Doug Noll: that'll cover 95% of your crises, 95% of your leadership problems, 95% of just about everything
Céline Williams: Yeah. I love that. I'm gonna say this to you before we wrap. As you were listing those emotions, I was like, the emotion that I always go to, my first one is always annoyed. I'm always annoyed.
Doug Noll: Yep, it's an anger emotion.
Céline Williams: So I was, I was [00:34:00] like,
Doug Noll: irritated. Mm-hmm. Absolutely
Céline Williams: Yep, that's always my go-to. So I'm, it's somewhere in there. We all have them. Um, you are an absolute pleasure, and this was one of the most impactful, especially from a practical standpoint, conversations that I've had, and I know the listeners are going to loves it, love this.
So thank you for sharing as openly as you did, and for telling the stories that you told. And just so you know, I'm 100% gonna invite you back, and I bet the listeners are gonna be all over that. So thank you
Doug Noll: I really enjoyed chatting with you. It's so nice to talk with a kindred spirit
Céline Williams: My pleasure
Judith: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage [00:35:00] and clarity.