Human-centered leadership is more than just a fad. It's the future of work. Regardless of what industry you're in, this applies to you. We have learned a lot over this past year, but we are barely scratching the surface of what's possible.
In today's conversation, I speak with Dimple Dhabalia, a Leadership and Mindful Performance Coach with a 20-year history of working at the crossroads of the government and humanitarian sectors.
Dimple’s cutting-edge work supports a holistic approach to addressing individual and organizational trauma and well-being.
As we discuss, the big question most of us have when it comes to work is: "How do we balance wanting to do well and being successful with being human?"
We don't have to lead to the lowest common denominator. We can assume that most people are doing their best at any given moment and that it's not only okay but, actually, beneficial to give them a sense of agency and autonomy in their work.
This was a fascinating and VERY TIMELY conversation with Dimple. And, a topic that I could not agree more with or be more passionate about as well. Take a listen and let us know what you think!
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To learn more about Dimple Dhabalia you can find her online at https://www.rootsintheclouds.com/. She is also on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dimple-dhabalia-she-her-ab326813b/), Facebook, Instagram and Twitter (@RootsInTheClouds).
- I am Celine Williams, and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. A conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. So my guest today is Dimple Dhabalia, who is the founder and CEO of Roots in the Clouds, and the leadership and mindful performance coach with a 20 year history of working at the crossroads of the government and humanitarian sectors. Dimple, thank you for joining me today. I'm really excited to talk to you.
Thanks so much for having me, I appreciate it.
It's absolutely a pleasure. I love what you're up to in the world and you came highly recommended by a mutual friend of ours.
Thanks.
recommendation. Human recommendation, recommending you as a human in general was basically what happened.
It's always nice to be recommended as a human.
Absolutely, the best way I feel. So, I always start big and broad to this question and it is when you hear the name of the podcast which is, "Leading Through Crisis", what comes up for you inside of that? What does that, what does that mean to you?
Yeah, that's such a, I mean, that's such a huge question. I think...
Big and broad.
Big and broad, exactly. I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is just compassion, right? Crisis is such a difficult time for people. And you know, a lot of what I'm always talking about is this idea of recognizing the humanity in others. And so I think leading, leading at any time is challenging. You know, leadership is challenging, but I think leading through crisis in particular it just requires so much compassion. It requires us to really meet people where they're at and understand that, you know, these are whole human beings that we're dealing with and as whole human beings, you know, even in good times, we don't leave a piece of ourselves at the door and when we come into work. And so, we are always gonna have things coming along with this, but during times of crisis especially like we've seen this past year with the pandemic, the resurgence of "Black Lives Matter", things like that. You know, people are carrying a lot of stuff, and to think that they can just compartmentalize it I think it's not a great way to operate.
I fundamentally agree with you. I, one of the things that I've been committed to in my business and very vocal about is that it's about creating. It's about helping people step into being comfortable and vulnerable and their whole self at work. 'Cause that's my focus, but it can be anywhere, and then creating that for other people, right?
Yeah.
Like it's very important to me. So, I agree. And I'm gonna acknowledge right now that I am biased towards us. Which I think everyone should be, but also biased about . So I guess I'm curious when, from your experience, and especially in the last year with everything that's happened, do you feel like there is progress being made in terms of enabling that? Are there still enabling people to be their whole self at work? Are there still major gaps or areas where you're like, why do we keep missing this? What are you seeing?
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great question too. So I work with leaders a lot too. I'm the leader in my organization, but I also coach leaders. And, you know, I think it's interesting because I hear a lot more discussion around this idea of being vulnerable and vulnerability in the workplace. And, you know, I think for some people it really resonates. And for a lot of people it's scary because they're like, well, I don't want people knowing my business. And you know, and I think most of us who do this work have read Bernie Brown's work. We know that vulnerability doesn't mean you have to spill all your guts or anything like that. But I think that there's still, there's still a lot of work to be done. And, you know, I feel like there's this idea sometimes that all, a lot of these concepts, that they are part of like initiatives that we're doing, or part of, you know, whatever, but they actually need to be built into the culture. And so, this idea of leading through crisis is a great example because a lot of the messaging that I've seen from like higher up in my organization is like, oh, you know out to the workforce, like you guys are so resilient, you guys are doing great. And what happens is that, number one, this fails to acknowledge that, you know, actually people are really struggling. And we're setting up this space where we start, we're contributing to that stigma about asking for help, because if I'm getting the message, hey, you guys are resilient, everyone's doing great. Then in my mind, I'm thinking, wow, like everyone around me is actually doing good and there's something wrong with me and that's not the case. And so a lot of the training that I do is to help people recognize that there's a lot of common humanity in what we're experiencing. And then the other piece of this is just the pure, like neuroscience around it, right? So, we know that like on a good day, when things are going really well, our mind is wandering 47% of the time. Like there's studies that show that. Which is pretty significant, right? When you think about being in conversations with people. When you think about, you know, we're out driving, we're out making decisions, we're not fully present. And during times of high stress and crisis, the mental noise that we experience reduces our ability to like process information and take things in by up to 80% on average, which is huge. So, during these times, if we think about like messaging that's going out, we think about, you know, productivity and things like that. Like we can't expect people to be able to continue to operate in, you know, what it's like when we're in steady state or normal operations because things are really different. And this past year with people trying to work from home, which maybe they weren't used to, 'cause not all places were set up that way, then trying to homeschool on top of like doing a job. And then just to send the message like, oh, you're resilient and you guys are getting the work done. It just, it sends this message that all this other stuff is like, it doesn't really matter. We just care that you're here, you're doing the work. And you know, and so I think that there's still a lot of work to be done in terms of having those conversations to say, for people to feel comfortable, and for there to be that psychological safety in the workplace where people can come in and say, you know what? I am struggling, I'm not doing so well today and I actually really need some help. And so I don't feel like we're quite there yet but I'm, because heartened or hopeful to say that at least there's a conversation starting. But I think a lot of this is just really educating leaders to understand you know, the realities of, and again I think approaching it from the neuroscience perspective is really helpful.
Yeah, it's really interesting 'cause you say that and I'm like my is when I hear an organization going out and saying something like, you know, you're so resilient we're so proud of you for being resilient. It's missing the, you're not actually meeting people where they are. You're running from a lot of assumptions that are probably not representative of everyone who's there. And when you declare someone to be something without their consent and input, you are putting them in a specific box that then they struggle to get out of.
Hundred percent.
And it's so frustrating to hear that because it's really easy to, like it's false positivity.
Yes.
There's a proper like, toxic positivity.
Toxic positivity
I was like, there is a proper word, but I'm just blanking.
Yeah. Yeah.
But it's like, it's like the route of, hey how are you doing, I'm fine. Why, why have we encouraged this toxic positivity? Even inside of something as simple as asking how someone is doing.
Yeah.
That this has now become the default. And if you're not fine, then like, oh, you're negative. And that person's always if they admit something. It's creating the exact same thing inside of these organizational cultures. That is such, that cycle is so frustrating to hear about and to hear is still happening. And I know it is, but it's like, should this be the case in 2021? Aren't we aware enough to not do that?
I mean, I don't think we are aware enough. You know, I think we, those of us doing this work operate in this bubble with others who are aware of it. And so I think it's really easy to forget that the bulk of people, like the majority of people around, like I don't think that... I just had this conversation with someone this morning around, you know, even just how, like the words that we use to describe things, right? And how we continue to, you know measure and tie success to productivity and worth, right, worthiness, tied to productivity, instead of like decoupling all of that and understanding like it doesn't matter what sector you're looking at. Every single sector people feel overworked and they feel like exhausted. And we see burnout happening in every single sector. So it's not, that's not unique to any one group, right? But it tells me, what that tells me is that, oh, there's a bigger issue here, which is that we continue to operate in this way that like we've got targets, we've got metrics. And I think that's always the constant tension, right? Like we're here to do a job, you know, and most of us wanna do a good job. And there's gonna be something to measure what that looks like. But how do we balance that against the fact that again we are human beings and you know, this idea of like through the industrial revolution and stuff that, you know we just became these kinds of, not quite robots yet, but like, you know we were there to produce a certain number of things in a specified time period. And we really changed the, like what was natural for people in terms of how we work or our natural rhythms and things like that. And to now like get people to shift their thinking around that it's challenging, you know, in this world of of trying to shift culture, it's really, really challenging.
And especially in countries like the United States that are so highly capitalistic, right?
Yeah. That capitalism is, and I'm not anti capitalism. I want to be clear. I think there are balances inside of everything. I don't think any system is perfect.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think when you lean so hard into capitalism that really becomes built in as part of it because it is about numbers. It is about, it is fundamentally about making money, hitting metrics, producing, producing, producing, 'cause that's built into capitalism.
Yeah.
And I think the countries, and this you we're a hundred percent right by the way, this is everywhere. It's not just a U.S thing and I wanna make that clear, but I do think the countries that have more of a social democracy still capitalism but a bit more of a balance, and they're not perfect by any stretch, but I think they, they are less, they're seeing less burnout because it's less about productivity specifically. And it might be more performance tied to other things but it's less, how many hours have you been here? Have you produced in this way? Are you hitting these specific targets?
Yeah.
And it's hard, like it's...
Yeah.
How do you, it's basically saying, hey, how do we shift out of this very ingrained capitalistic mindset that measures one specific thing and expect one specific thing into something that may be more healthy for more of us?
Yeah, and I think it also is about like it ties a lot of our work to our identity, right? So, our job is who we are. And that's very, I think that's a very big thing, especially in the professional core or whatever you wanna call it. I think that that's a really big thing, right? But you look at like countries, I can't remember if it's like Denmark, maybe. Work is important and people take a lot of pride in what they do but they also, you know, this concept of hooga, right? Like, or I think that's how you pronounce it.
Yup.
And just like, you know, being able to take that time off and to relax and to let go of of all this other stuff, to really have a quality of life. And I think that sometimes that's what we're missing, right? It's like a quality of life because we're so focused on, getting to that next thing, and it's never gonna be enough. You know, a lot of the mindfulness work that I do is around perfectionism as well. So in this, this type of climate we breed perfectionism and we breed competition. And the thing is like the research shows that perfectionism doesn't actually work, right, we need more self-compassion. Because the more, like, but we operate in this way that, I have to hit this target. I have to get to this place. And when I, when I do that, that'll be, you know, that'll be success. But it's like, even when we hit that, like we barely stop to even acknowledge it and we're already onto the next thing, right? We don't stop to savor it or enjoy it or celebrate it but we're onto like, okay, that's not enough. Now there's like this new higher thing I need to do. And so it, it just like it perpetuates that cycle. And I think that getting people again to shift mindset around that is a really challenging thing when it's so ingrained.
Yeah, I love that you brought up Denmark, 'cause that's literally the Scandinavian countries, were the countries I was thinking about. So I love that you brought that up 'cause they have a bit more, they definitely have more of a balance, again, not perfect, but definitely have more of a balance when it comes to this. And it's really interesting in what you're saying because I am a person that I'm very driven by the work that I do, and I love it. And it is creative. And I could spend 20 hours a day doing work that I enjoy doing and not, and it's not a problem. And I'm also a person who has never wanted kids. That's not my life. It's not the life I wanna have. I may feel differently if I had that specific thing. And I think to me there's also a balance of we each are gonna have different, it's like a spectrum, right? We're each on the spectrum differently. So for someone like me who doesn't have kids, has never wanted kids. I wanna be able to hang out with my cats, do some of the things I enjoy doing to disconnect but I'm actually really quite happy working a ton. It's not about productivity or perfectionism. It's because I enjoy being creative. Like I enjoy the creativity and the learning and the expressing and all of that. And that should be okay for someone on the other side of the spectrum. Who's like, I wanna spend more time with my family and my kids, 'cause that's really important, and this is what I want my work to look like. It doesn't all have to be this and then there's gonna be, you know, all over the place. But I think to me that's the thing that is often really lacking is that it doesn't have to look the same for everyone and we're so hung up on it, looking the same for everyone.
I completely agree and that's why I actually don't like the term work-life balance. In all the work that I do I talk about work-life harmony for this exact reason. That number one, it's different for everyone. And it's this idea of, you know at some points in my life, work is gonna be more exciting, more interesting. It's where I wanna spend more of my time. But at other times it's gonna be with family and friends or just taking time off or whatever. And so it's this idea that we have the agency to pick and choose and set up our lives in a way where things work in harmony, right? And so balance, I think the word itself, again going back to that idea of like the words that we choose, balance just implies there's, there's already judgment in balance, right? And balance implies like this equal weight to everything.
Yeah.
And that's just not possible. It's not realistic, right, and so if you are a person who has children and you've got a family life and all this stuff, you are probably quite often really hard on yourself because you feel like I'm not giving enough to them and I'm giving too much at work. But then at work, you're feeling like I'm not giving enough here because I've got like these other things that I'm trying to contend with. And so, it sets up this natural cycle where there's just a lot of like self criticism and it's difficult because we can't realistically balance both equally nor should we have to, right, one thing shouldn't be equal to the other necessarily all the time. And so I like this idea of, you know, how do we bring, I've read it once it's like, it's like this symphony of life, right? Where all these different aspects of our life all these different instruments, and they're coming together to create like this beautiful piece of music, which is our life. And I love that image of it because then that gives you a little bit more of that space to create life the way that you wanted.
Well, and it goes back to that concept of the whole human, is that like ha the life that we want, the success that we define for ourselves. It's gonna be different for each person. And so, how do you, how do we allow each person to define it for themselves and then allow that to be okay in whatever organizations, teams, whatever we're creating. We create that safe space that you mentioned earlier.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I've got nothing else to add to that .
No, I mean, I think it's, I think it's really, it's an important conversation to be having. And I think the more that we can talk about the fact that it doesn't have to be the same for everyone and it is a spectrum and I always use the language of you have to meet people where they are. You can't, like don't go and try and impose your thing on someone else. That's a disaster and it's not fair. How do you like when people come in and impose their thing? You have to, this is what your life needs to look like. Nobody likes that.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think the more we could have this conversation, the more it can start to change what's really happening in organizations and happening with leaders and happening with some of the more traditional ways that we've done business, because that's, that's what it is. It's about influencing those things so people have a better experience, at least in my opinion.
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, when you think about like a lot of the research that's coming out of like these different HR groups and staff, you know, there's, there's a lot to be said for organizations that are having those conversations and they're giving their people, the agency to, have a little bit of space to create. Like on my team, for example, I don't say like, okay, you have to work from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM or whatever. And most of my team is scattered all over. And so, you know, I've created an app or I've tried to create an atmosphere where I let them know upfront. Like, you know, I trust you to get in the hours that you need, and these are the projects that need to get done. You figure out your schedule, you figure out like what's to you, in terms of how early or how late because we also have different body rythms. Like, you know, afternoons are, I get very sluggish in the afternoons, but mornings are great for me. So maybe I'm gonna get a lot more done in the morning versus later in the afternoon. And so being able to work with people in that way and give them a little bit of autonomy to feel like they have some control over their day and their schedule and that if they go take a walk especially like, you know, we know, right? There's like the research around telework and working from home shows that people actually work way more than, than their normal hours because they feel like they have to prove that you know what, I'm actually working. Whereas if we're in the office, you know we're gonna go grab a coffee, and we're gonna go walk around and talk to people. And so, so this idea that, you know it's okay to like go take a walk in the afternoon to like, for 10 minutes and get outside and get some fresh air. And, you know, and trust that... And again this is the other part of . Like I do this training for leaders and it's this conversation that not only are people whole human beings but you're working with adults, you know, and we like treat people like children all the time. And like, what if we actually, and we manage to the lowest performer, that's the other thing, right? We manage to the people who, all of our policies and things are written up in a very punitive manner to address people who are breaking the rules, right, or are not doing what they're supposed to be doing. But it's like, imagine what would be possible if we actually manage to the high performers and to the the bulk of the workforce that is actually showing up and doing, you know, extraordinary things. Like, I always say, like, nobody wakes up in the morning and stretches, and they're just like today I'm gonna go out into the world and just be mediocre, right? Like nobody does that, right? Most people genuinely want to do their best but like my best is probably different from your best. And my best is probably gonna change from moment to moment or like, you know, throughout the day. And so being able to understand that about the people that we're leading. That if we go into it with this attitude that most people are trying to do their best. And then we deal with the people who aren't and we figure that out, and usually there's some root causes around that too. But, you know, just to me like the ability to do that is really like it fosters, that's what fosters that psychological safety. That's what foster that sense of connection within the team. So that when you get to this point of leading through a crisis you already got this unit that's so tight they're going to step up for each other. They're gonna be there for each other. They're gonna relate to each other on such a human level, that you will get through the crisis, and you'll get through it together and you'll get stronger. But right now, most of the systems are broken and we don't have that. And so that's part of why I think people struggle even more during times of crisis.
So, I completely agree with everything you said. I often say, when we talk about assigning intent to people, like how many people do you think wake up in the morning and they're like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna ruin Dimple's day and be a jerk. Like no one does. I mean, sure, there's like a handful of people who actually do that.
Correct.
But no one is waking up and going.
Yeah.
Lemme go ruin someone's day today, woo, woo. Like that's, we're not wired that way. So, if we constantly think that everyone is trying their best in the moment and we give them that I am signing positive intent to the people around me consistently, this is when I do culture design. I am like, I hammer this home. I'm such a broken record about this.
Yeah.
But I think it's really important because we are dealing with adults. Like, and I, and it's when you said that I was thinking I worked with an organization and their CEO and I had so many conversations about this that we unintentionally in the first draft of their culture design document, literally put the language in that is like treat each other like adult humans. And we were like, oh, we maybe need to soften that. 'Cause it was a little bit, but it was such a, it's such a miss. It was in there because we kept being like, why can't we, like, why can we not act like adults and assume that other people are adults and deal with the people who are not acting like adults separately, but like, let's start from that. And I think what you're saying is really important that, yeah, most people are doing their best. Most people are following the rules or disrupting them in a productive way, not a destructive way.
Yeah.
So if we start from there, how does that change how we relate, how we work? You know, the conversations we have, the disputes we have, whatever the case may be.
Yeah, yeah.
Before we wrap, 'cause I want to be mindful of like that we will get to the point where we have to end this conversation despite the fact that I'd love to talk to you more. I know that one of the areas that is something that you have a lot of experience in and you're doing a lot of training on is this idea of trauma, and this idea of what that looks like and the spectrum. And I'd love to hear you talk about this a little bit because I think that that concept is really, really closely tied to what happens in times of crisis and how we lead, how we are led, how we show up in those challenging times.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, I think the trauma is such an interesting thing because, you know, I think as human beings and especially as high performers, we are perfectly fine telling them people were stressed out. Like stress is like a bad people were stress as a badge of honor. And it equates to power, it equates to grit, you know like all these different things. But trauma, like people hear the word trauma and it feels like there's shame associated with it. There's, you know, weakness associated with it. And so I think there's a lot of misconceptions around trauma. And there's a really great book called, "Widen the Window". I think it's called, "Widen the Window". It's by Elizabeth Stanley. And so the book references what we call our window of tolerance. And so the window of tolerance is basically our window of tolerance to stress arousal. And everybody has a unique window and we call it a window because we have the ability to like widen it or make it more narrow. And so when we're within our window of tolerance, things are going really well. Like we can keep all of our decision-making, our attention, all those executive functions online. But when we are outside of our window, we're either in that hyper arousal stage where we're kind of overwhelmed, we're panicked, we're anxious or we're hypo aroused. And so that's where we're kind of shutting down or numbing, things like that. And so during times of like stress and crisis, people's windows, like the width of the window is really shaped by, you know, all of our life experiences really kind of lead us to where we're at. And so, our windows are all different. And so that's why like 10 people experiencing the same event are going to, like react in different, in 10 different ways because there's 10 different window widths. And then the other piece of this is really just that when we think about stress and trauma as two separate things, it really discounts the fact that they actually have that shared neuro-biological basis. And so we know that stress is part of our body's protection system. It is, you know, it's an evolutionary survival mechanism. It's helped to keep us safe. It's helped to keep us alive. But in trauma is really like stress is on one end of this continuum and traumatic stress is kind of on the other. And whether we'll experience an event as stressful or as traumatic stress, really again depends on that, the width of that window. And then the other thing is like, I think with trauma, in a lot of the trainings that I do we talk about big T versus little T trauma. And, you know, our conventional understanding of trauma really focuses on that kind of big T trauma, so, shock trauma. And so these are the big, big things, you know, terrorist attacks, car accidents, the death of a loved one and really major things, right? But we have so many like chronic accumulating things happening throughout our day that make up what we call little T traumas. And these little T traumas actually are the things that really end up leading to things like burnout because they build up day after day. And so, I'd to explain this through another colleague of mine we talked about how like this, we explained it as, trauma as a layer cake. And so your first layer of that cake is just your regular, everyday stress. So, little things that come up, I'm running late, I've got a bad commute. Maybe I've have an argument with a partner and things like that. And then the next level is the cumulative then chronic stress. And so this is that stress that sticks with us day after day, year after year. It just keeps building, and we're not really practicing great self-care. We're not taking time for ourselves. There's just too much going on. We're not sleeping well, things like that. And then after that you've got a layer of critical incident stress. And so again, these are those individual incidents. So some of that shock trauma, death of a loved one, loss of a job, impact of a natural disaster, things like that. Then for some people we've got another layer, which brings in kind of like intergenerational trauma, right? So, we look at that especially in like our African-American or native and indigenous indigenous communities, that's like a whole added level. And then on top of that you can add in organizational stress. So things like potential furloughs, you know, closing down of entire departments, constantly changing policies and litigation, a lack of feeling of support and care in the workplace. So, all of those things are like your layer cake. And then on top of that you add in any one-offs like the pandemic or, you know other things that are going on right now. And so all of those things together, these are traumatic and we don't acknowledge them as trauma. But they are trauma, and they build up on their own and are just incredibly taxing on our mind and body systems especially because our thinking brain. So the parts of our brains that are really like analyzing the information and stuff, because of how we've been as a society we de-value and discount their actual effects. And so, and then we live in a society where other people's brains do the same thing. And so we don't consider those things, those things that we're experiencing every day and the poverty and the, you know, the inequities and everything that we're experiencing. We don't see all of that as trauma every day. But those are all the traumas that we're dealing with.
I appreciate you sharing all of that. And the reason I want to touch on this, if for no other reason, because we could spend an hour talking about that and we don't, I want to be mindful of your time, but the reason I did want to touch on it if nothing else is to give anyone who is listening to this, to give any leader some of the language and the opportunity to understand it. So they can start thinking about it and using it with their team, talking about it, making it not this thing that we hide away in and it's shameful and no one talks about it. But actually, and this is where vulnerability to me is really important where it's even just bringing up a topic like this and saying, hey, I heard this brilliant woman talking about trauma in this way. I'd love to open up this conversation with the team, right? So, it takes it away from that shameful stigma and into the world of the only way we change this and the only way that this looks different in 10 years, in five years, in two years, is to have a different conversation about it.
Yeah, absolutely. And just again, you know, really, I guess, reinforcing that we understand that people may not be feeling resilient now and that's okay, and normalizing that, that's okay. We don't expect you to feel resilient right now, and if you're not feeling that way, that's fine. And let's, yeah, let's have a conversation and let's find ways to make it okay to ask for help, 'cause I think that's like the really important piece of this. Is it can feel very, very isolating for people if you think you're the only one that's experiencing this. And so the more that we talk about it, the more that we highlight that there, again, there's a common humanity around this. Many people are struggling right now, and struggling can be at various levels. You don't have to be like in, you know, when we talk about crisis there's three elements to crisis but you don't have to meet all three and be on a, like in the, you know, there's a misperception that crisis means that you're balled up in the corner, you know, like, unable to function. And that's not necessarily what crisis is. And so being able to recognize that as leaders I think is really, really important to making sure that your workforce stays healthy.
Yeah, and I love, thank you for saying that. It's one of the reasons that I called this, "Leading Through Crisis", was to take it away from like crisis is not this extreme thing that happens once in a blue moon where like, we have to stop thinking about it that way.
Yeah.
Because it's not. It doesn't serve the realities of what we deal with every day and what people are going through.
Yeah, and also, sorry, just one last .
news. You know, crisis is really, it's real to the person who's experiencing it.
Absolutely.
So that's the other piece of it, right? Is that what may feel like such a huge thing for me may not seem like a big deal to you.
Yeah.
But we have to be able to recommend... And going back to this idea again of this whole human being, every person on our team is different. Meeting people where they're at, same thing with the crisis, idea of crisis. You know, whoever we're engaging with, we may not be able to see it, but if they're experiencing that then that's where that empathy needs to come in. And even with empathy we're not doing anything spectacular, we're just letting people know we care. And I think that that's, that's definitely worth saying.
I appreciate that. Thank you for sharing your brilliance with me and with the listeners.
Thanks for having me.
It's been a pleasure. I'm gonna have your website and everything linked up in the show notes per usual. So for anyone listening, please go check that out. But is there, is there anywhere in particular for people who might not be able to access it that you could, that they should go to learn more about you, Dimple? What's the best way for them to connect with you online?
Huh, that's a good question. Yeah, so the website and then I'm on social media so they can follow me at Dimpstory, or at Roots in the Clouds. So that's usually the best way to find me.
Amazing, everyone go find Dimple, she's brilliant. Thank you, I really appreciate.
Thanks so much.
Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.LeadingThroughCrisis.ca.