Today's guest, Deepa Purushothaman talks to us about women of color in the workplace and redefining power in corporate spaces. Join us for this important conversation.
Deepa Purushothaman is a former Senior Executive and a Corporate Inclusion Visionary, as well as the author of the best-selling new book, The First, The Few, The Only: How Women of Color Can Redefine Power in Corporate America.
We, of course, talk about leading through crisis but we also get into some common myths surrounding women of color at work; how to be seen, heard, and find your community as a minority; and what co-conspirators can do to help.
Deepa says, "this will take years, if not decades to get it right. We are just beginning the conversation. But, finding places to start is the most important."
I hope you'll listen and share your takeaways!
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Deepa is a former senior executive and a corporate inclusion visionary. She challenges and redefines the status quo of leadership, success, and power by centering the needs and experiences of Women of Color.
Deepa’s book, “The First, The Few, The Only: How Women of Color Can Redefine Power in Corporate America”, was published in March 2022 to international acclaim and can be purchased at all major booksellers.
To find out more about Deepa and her work, visit https://www.deepapuru.com/. You can also find her on social by searching, Deepa Puru.
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Deepa Purushothaman, who is a former senior executive and corporate inclusion visionary, and whose first book, "The First, the Few, the Only: How Women of Color Can Redefine Power in Corporate America" was published in March of this year, 2022. Welcome Deepa.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Absolutely. I'm very excited to talk about this book. I think it's, as we were kind of talking right before we hit record, it's a really important topic right now and very, very timely. But before we dive into any of that, I'm gonna ask the question that I always start these podcasts off with, which is, when you hear the title of the podcast "Leading Through Crisis," what does that mean to you?
Yeah, it's interesting. I think of it two ways. So I'll tell you what I think crises are or like what comes up for me, but I also, when you say leading through crises, what I think about is how do you own your values, how do you stand true to who you are, regardless of what comes up, you know, regardless of a toxic work environment or regardless of the pandemic, or regardless of some sort of change at home, like how do you continue to lead in ways that are authentic to who you are, how you wanna show up in the world and bring those values to work. And so that's what I think of. I think for me personally, when I think of leading through crisis, I think of a couple of years ago, you know, I was a senior partner in a really large firm. I was at the height of my career and I started to get really sick. And it was a combination of like a really growing values conflict on, I was not necessarily doing the work that I thought I'd be doing in the world, although really, you know, loved my job and felt like I was contributing. I'd gone to school for policy. And so there was this growing question given what was happening with politics in America, on what, you know, am I following that path? And then I started to get really sick, and it was growing symptoms over the course of almost a year that ended up, you know, where I spent nine months in bed, you know, two years later. And so I think those things really combined to really make me question and put me on a different path. So it's almost those two things, like so much of my work is how we lead, you know, authentically in who we are and show up in those ways and really critical moments. But I also have my own personal journey that I think has really set me on a path of really evaluating my own values and how I wanna show up in the world.
And I'd imagine that your personal journey guides a lot of how you speak into people leading authentically and being true to who they are. Because again, I would imagine, please check my assumptions on this, but I'd imagine that going through a crisis like that and dealing with health and all of those things makes you question, am I living the way that is right for me? Am I living in a way that feels good to me consistently, that piece of authenticity, right?
Yeah. It made me question my values around success, right? I had this really high powerful, you know, career. I was really successful on paper, but, you know, I wasn't necessarily settled or happy or on that path I thought I should be on and then add to it the health issues. It just makes you question, like, can I keep doing this? I did three cities a week for many years, right? Traveling, that takes a toll on you. And so there was this real growing question of what does that mean? You know, I ended up interviewing 500 women of color as I wrote this book. And one of the biggest findings, and I say this in the book, is that almost two outta three women of color I interviewed, I interviewed mostly senior women, but two outta three women of color I interviewed are all sick from what I call mysterious illnesses. So heart palpitations, headaches, adrenal fatigue, skin rashes, you know, stomach pains. And there's about 12 things in the book that I talk about, and they all had it. And I think it comes from stress. I think it comes from stress, from being in systems where you're not always seen and heard. I think it comes from not being in full voice, but it's really interesting. There's not as much discussion around the physical. There's a lot of conversation now around trauma and mental health and wellness, but we're not talking about the physical toll that it takes on our bodies and how, I think a lot of us sacrifice, right? So many things. Sacrifice family time, sacrifice physical health, sacrifice mental health to succeed in, especially, corporate spaces, but in a lot of, like, high-intense workspace, and a lot of what I'm really trying to struggle through and really help women, in particular, reevaluate is, is that worth it? Like who are you as you go through those processes and those containers and how do you stay true to who you are and how do you value what is truly important? 'Cause if you don't have health, it's very hard to have wealth, right? And that's not my own, like, phrase, but I've heard it over and over again as I've interviewed these women. And I'll be honest with you. For me, those concepts were very divorced concepts, you know, five years ago. I would've sacrificed, right, sleep, sacrificed eating. Like, it was all about performance. And I think that's what we value in our culture. And we're in a moment where I think the last few years have made many of us question, is that really the right path and are those the right values and what's wrong with following that? And so it's a really interesting time to, I think, be exploring these kinds of concepts.
So I'm curious and I'm fully recognize I'm gonna, this might sound awkward and this may be end up being anecdotal. So I'm not asking you to say, this is my stake in the sand, necessarily, as I put this together as a question, but you used the word should, right, like, you know, what you should be doing. And I'm curious if having interviewed all these women and seeing very concrete and specific themes and trends, especially around physical health, I'm wondering how much you think the disparity between the shoulds that women, especially women of color are feeling? They should be doing these things. It should be this way. Life should look like this verse, you know, how much that is really driving some of those challenging health outcomes, some of the, you know, the, I mean, what we're seeing across the board right now with women of color, people of color, that tension. That's the word I'm looking for. The tension there.
Yeah, you know, I think it's a lot of it. So there's two chapters in the book. One, I call it shedding and one, I call carrying, and so much of what I talk about and the women I work with as well. It's about shedding these messages, shedding these indoctrinated beliefs that don't serve us anymore. And they go from everything on. We think leadership looks a certain way. So many of us will mimic the leaders who've come before us, but those tend to be white-male leaders, right? And there's not a lot of room for compassion, empathy, and things that are really important to us, but also a lot of shoulds or, you know, again, they need to shed these messages as language I use around as a woman of color, you're gonna have to work two or four times as hard to get to the table, right? So almost all of the women I interviewed overwork themselves because they felt that they had to. You know, this idea of you should be grateful. So a lot of the women I interviewed have been told, like, don't make waves once you get to the table, right, or that visibility is a bad thing, right, because of the cultures they come from. We can go through all that, but there's a lot of these, you know, and there's three or four that kept coming up over and over again. So the work harder, that don't rock the table and that, you know, you should also just be grateful, I think put us in these really precarious situations. So a lot of what I'm talking about is shedding those messages that don't serve us, but then we have to replace them with ones that do. And I think a lot of us have not been taught how to carry forward, you know, the wisdom that comes from our cultures or the wisdom that comes from inside. And so my should is really figuring out for yourself. Like, what do you believe in? Who are you? How do you wanna lead? How do you wanna show up? And most of us don't go through that work until we go into a crisis is what the data suggests, right? Almost all the women that I interviewed who were in full voice, who were really powerful. Again, I'm really, I focus a lot on these ideas of power-
Yeah.
really powerful, unfortunately, had faced crisis. So they kind of had a divorce or a life event, a job didn't work out the way they thought, you know, some sort of racist or microaggressive situation or a health issue. Those were usually the four or five. And, you know, going through that, the system not working the way that they'd been taught it would. So if they just worked harder, if they were just a good wife, if they were just, just, just, and then things didn't work out in that way. That moment of, you know, reality not matching everything they'd been taught to do, that moment really, I think, is the breaking point. And it's that breaking point that I think is when a lot of us find power, find voice, find strength, 'cause you have to go inside. And a lot of what I'm teaching is that power, that clarity comes from inside. It's not from outside values or outside definitions of success. If you change those things, you're gonna be exhausted because those things probably aren't the things that really matter to us. But we live in a society where there's not space to really even have that conversation these days, so.
I imagine that it's very challenging. Listen, in my experience, based on the work that I do, it's challenging for anyone to uncouple what actually matters to them from what society or business or whatever has told them should matter, right, just across the board. I think when people are doing that exploration, it's extraordinarily difficult. I imagine there is an significant additional layer of difficulty there. When you are a woman, let alone a woman of color, like, let's add these layers onto it. And I'm curious how, if someone is listening to this, if, you know, a woman of color is listening to this and it's like, I think I need to do that, but how on earth do you even start to identify what is mine versus what is not mine inside of it? I think that starting point is really hard. And I'm curious how you would or what advice you would give someone who's thinking I don't even know where to start.
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Again, I think it's those moments of crisis that cause a lot of people to ask themselves these questions. But I would also say in the last few years, I think more of us are asking ourselves these questions, and unfortunately, that learning or that breakthrough can't come from, like, an outside coach or an outside therapist. They can help, but it comes from really getting quiet and listening to yourself, and it's different things for different people. So it could be meditation, it could be writing in a journal, it could be walking, but we don't spend enough time getting still so that we can listen to the things that we want or that we like. And in some ways, it's actually returning to things that we already know. So a lot of the women I work with will think about, like, what brings me joy and they'll think back to, like, when I was six years old, I used to like to draw, or when I was a teenager, I like to cook, but I haven't made space in my life for those things. So it's almost like thinking back to, like, what truly makes you happy, what truly brings you joy, and starting with those things. 'Cause most of us don't. You know, women are in our lives for those things, but it's that inner voice, inner listening, and that, you know, unfortunately, or fortunately, we all know those things, but we just haven't been taught to listen to that voice. And so it's figuring out, again, what works for you, different for different people, different for different women, but really figuring out how to bring that voice out.
So I hear that. And what comes up for me is, immediately, I think we indoctrinate women and little girls from such a young age into be a good girl, be kind, these are the appropriate things to do, you know, not picking on what you said about drawing, but, like, drawing, coloring, and these ladylike little girl things, that's be a nice little girl. And because that's the first thing that came to mind, I also think how it must be very challenging for some women to know if that is even them or just the thing that they've heard since they were born. Is there a way for women specifically to go even, to get beyond that? Because I think of, and I know that's a bit of a strange question, but I think there are so many women and I imagine, like, you know, cultural layers as well, different expectations from different backgrounds that it's just, this is the way it is, that they may not even know what they like or what, they might not have a thing from a childhood where they were like, oh, that was the thing I enjoyed doing.
Yeah, no. It doesn't come easily. So when I say that it takes women sometimes a year to remember back to what they actually enjoy doing, 'cause they were taught, you know, that's not valuable. So a lot of the women I work with, right, of Asian descent. Well, you know, that's not, you know, performance oriented, so I'm gonna put that aside. So I do think you have to really, it's not an easy thing to find. That's why, when I say joy, like, a lot of women recoil, 'cause they don't even know what that concept is. So yes, I think that's part of it. I think it's also giving yourself permission to try different things. You know, a lot of the book is about the power of me and the power of we. So you have to figure out where you find your power individually. Again, not from outside accolades, but from inside. But the other thing you have to do is women of color, because we get so many of those messages, right, that we're not powerful, that nothing is expected of us, that, you know, our legacy is unclear. Like, these big questions. When you think of a leader, we don't often think of women of color. So then you have to find the power of we. You have to find community and have these conversations. And a lot of this work is about being seen and heard. And I keep coming back to that, 'cause those are the words that kept coming up over and over again. And I think being seen and heard, the power of we is really understanding some of the things that you're feeling and that are happening to are system related. And so that is really what this, the work is freeing in that sense, again, you're gonna still have to do the work on me and there's no way of getting around that and that's hard work, but the power of we work was really understanding, like, and being responsible for the parts that are yours, the parts that you have to work harder on, the parts that you have to lean into. But it's also understanding there's a lot of things about how the system is set up that don't work for us. You know, I opened the book with a story about airplanes. I interviewed Verna Myers, and she's the VP of inclusion at Netflix. And when I interviewed her, I thought she would be talking about inclusion in workplaces 'cause that's her background and her, you know, she's written books on it. Instead, she started talking about airplane design, and she said, when she was a mom of young kids, she used to really struggle when she flew, because putting the suitcase overhead, she would feel like whenever there was turbulence, it was such a bad design. She would honestly worry for their safety. And I jumped in 'cause I'm 5'1". And as I shared, I traveled, you know, sometimes three cities. So six times a week I was getting on and off an airplane. Getting my luggage overhead is quite a difficult process. I sometimes have to stand on the seat. Like, it's something I worry about before I even, you know, get on the plane. And here we are two women of color having a completely different experience in this very small compartment. And the same is true for workplaces, right? They weren't created with us in mind. They weren't created, you know, most workplaces were created, design temperature wise, desk height wise. Chairs are designed for the male body as an example. And so this idea that, you know, we have to try harder, we have to do more. It's all about us. There's also a line where we have to push back and say, but some of this is structural. Some of this is not our responsibility, and that's where we comes in. And so what I have found is when women are working on the me stuff and figuring out, like, who are they and how do they wanna show up and what's important to them, if they also find community and they find, then they see the patterns and they can release themselves from some of the, what they think they have to do more of, it's a really magical sort of combination, but you need both of those parts to actually find that sort of liberation or freedom as the language that I use.
And I appreciate you saying that, 'cause I think that, and I'm gonna make an assumption, please, correct me if I'm wrong. I think that a lot of women, let alone women of color. So I imagine that this is likely even more pervasive, feel like they have to do things on their own. I can only rely on myself to get this done. I have to do it on my own. This is how this moves forward. And it becomes very internal looking. Does that make sense what I'm saying there?
It does. I mean, so I said health was the biggest, you know, thing that surprised me in the book. The second most surprising thing was that women would get quiet at the end of the interviews. And I would say, is there anything else you wanna share? And they would almost look at their shoes, right, or look down, 'cause there was shame in saying this, but they're like, we don't often help each other or lean on each other as women. Most of us are in these situations. Again, I interviewed senior women. So there's not, you know, a lot of other women at their level. And they're the only one, right? Again, the first few, the only, and that sense of having to have done it alone, right, is really difficult. And a lot of these women are sacrificing and feel very alone in ways we haven't even really talked about. And then secondly, there is a little bit of the sense of, and it's in the system, right, not something that I think we believe inherently but of competition. And so a lot of what the women talked about is, you know, how do we think about power, how do we think of success, how do we think of competition in a very different way? So it is more collective. And I think we want that as women of color that we come from, a lot of us come from cultures where success is measured by community success, not individual success, but there isn't always space for that in our workplaces. And so that, that, that, what's the right word? That disconnect between those two value systems is real. And so that's also some of what we need to unpack and figure out how do we do this as a cohort? Because in order for us to rise, we need more of us to rise. It doesn't matter if just one of us rises.
Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that, 'cause I think that it's important to remember that and there are very distinct community connections inside of a lot of different cultures, you know, backgrounds, whatever they are. And it is often in, there's a big disparity between that sense and sensibility and the workplace because it has been designed around a hyper-masculine white male. Like, this is the systemic stuff, right? Hyper-masculine white male competition-based lens, right? I, you know, I, if you're familiar with the Hogan, this is not gonna be a Hogan podcast. But if you're familiar with the Hogan, one of the scales that they talk about is ambition, and it is, you know, how people look like leaders. And it is how people look like what we think a competitive white male leader should look like, and there's language around it. We adjust for it, but it's acknowledged there because that's how most people think about leadership, how most people think about the business world. That is often really different than cultures that are not, you know, North-American white men come together. And if you can't, you know, reminding women of color, that that is important for a reason and to not feed fully into that leadership culture. I can't even imagine how impactful that is for them.
And I think that's the moment we're in. Again, the last couple years, right, when we saw people kind of retreat to their homes and we saw improvements in the environment, right, we saw, you know, populations of species that were endangered actually coming back. Like, you start to see some of how, if we work differently, if we act differently, we can have huge impacts. And so I share that to say, I think we're in a moment where some of that different thinking, some of that different way of being, there's more space for it than ever before. I'm not saying it's completely embraced, but I feel like people don't look at you sideways when you say things like that. Now, they're kind of maybe a little intrigued, don't understand it fully, but I think you're gonna see more and more coming out in the next few years. It talks about how leadership, you know, needs to evolve and we need that more empathetic leadership, we need that more compassionate leadership if we're actually going to solve, you know, some of the biggest challenges we have on this planet and also have people work and be healthy, which it has to be part of what we've learned from the last few years.
Yeah. How do you think women can start finding some of those communities and finding these connections? And I know that this is, you know, the work that you do in the organization that you're running now, but how can they do that? What are some of the ways that they can go about doing that? Because it's gonna be different for different people.
It's gonna be different. I think it's interesting 'cause I think some people will say, or a lot of people will say the last few years have made more of us feel alienated. We're actually not in community, you know, as much as before. And I would actually tell you in the circles that I'm in, I actually feel like we're more in communities. So I don't know that I share that. I think there's been more coming together, you know, around people of color and women of color, 'cause we're finally talking about some of the challenges The last few years for me have been about talking about the challenges in ways there's never been space to talk about the challenges before. We often say, and a big theme in the book is corporate America's not a meritocracy. When I used to say that a couple years ago, people would get really uncomfortable, and now I can say that and people kind of look at me, okay, well, help me understand what that means. Well, again, it shows up differently for different people. That's all it's saying. And so I think there is more of a sense of community in certain pockets. I think people are finding it online in a very different way. And I think, you know, I did not think nFormation is a company that I co-founded with my partner. And when we originally envisioned it, we thought it was gonna be all in-person events. Obviously, COVID happened and we had to change the model, and it's kind of all virtual and yet we've been able to create intimacy and safe space, you know, with women who've never met each other. I also think LinkedIn, like, I think we have this really myopic view of how you can reach out to people in connection. And I think the last couple of years have shown us if you just reach out to people with a valid question, not just hey or, you know, I'd love to connect, but I'd love to connect because you spoke about this particular topic and I have a question, people are really willing to do those kinds of things. You know, find 15 minutes for a virtual coffee chat or whatever. So I think we sometimes overthink it, but we also have to realize, find community where you can find it, especially as women and women of color, whether that's a church group, a sorority group, or organizations like the one we founded where we're trying to have conversations about the workplace in a very different way. 'Cause what we have found is ERGs, you know, employee resource groups, are really helpful, but not all companies have them and not all companies, they're not all safe spaces in most companies, right? And so we need to find places where we can have these conversations and learn across industries and across companies and across sectors in a very different way. And I think that's what we've been able to create.
Yeah. I love that. I think it's, and the more that leaders and organizations can listen to things like this and take lessons and try different things and be aware and be constantly, it's okay to make mistakes and to fail. Not everything has to work, but it's about progress, not perfection. So how do we move things forward? I think, you know, to your point, I'm gonna speak about ERGs for one second. The organizations that have them, that's a great stepping point. They're great. And a lot of them aren't perfect. How do we, you know, are the people who are in those groups, I've seen this in organizations multiple times where, you know, as an outside person, I get to go in and have some of these conversations and people are like, yeah, it's great that we have this queer ERG or, you know, African-American or whatever it is. But we don't feel like we're actually, like, anything's happening with what we're saying. We don't. So they have that group and they are appreciating the connection, but then they, no one has come in to listen or do anything with it. They don't have a sponsor, whatever the case may be with the voice in the organization. Constantly, you know, checking in and growing and taking information. That example, the other examples, that helps. It should not be a, here's the one thing we're doing and this is the solution. If it's not perfect, then, well, that's what we're doing, which, I think, is unfortunately what happens so often in corporate America.
Yeah. I mean, that's what we're seeing, right? A lot of these programs are failing. They're, you know, two years in and they're not really having the results. I go into a lot of companies and executives will say to me, like, my people of color, my women of color, tell me how it is. You know, two hours later, I go meet those same groups and I completely get a different list of issues. We have not really created places that are safe. We have not created rewards for telling the truth. I call women of color truth tellers, but there's a lot of backlash when they truth tell. And so figuring out and early accepting that we're on the early stages of a lot of these evolutions that we just opened up the conversation around workplaces not being equitable, at least, again, here, very recently until two years ago, you couldn't say that people would say no, workplaces are completely fair. You know, they don't have racism. It's a very new conversation here. And so, not that we didn't know that it happened to us, but I think again, the conversation wasn't happening openly. So I think we just need to be a little bit more compassionate that we're early in the discussion, that we are gonna get it wrong before we get it right. And this is hard. This is gonna take years if not decades to get correct, you know. And we're just beginning the conversation. So finding ways to start is really the most important thing.
So I laughed there because when you said, you know, a few years ago, people were like, racism doesn't happen in the workplace. I thought, yeah, of course, because the voices that were out there primarily, I mean they still are, it's just slightly more diverse now. They were white men. Of course racism doesn't happen and sexism doesn't happen. And all these things don't happen. Discrimination doesn't happen against white men. So of course people were like, this is not a thing that we're dealing with. And I laughed at that, and.
Just 'cause it's so exactly what you're saying. It was a stat and it said, 74% of Black HR executives or HR leaders believe, right, racism is still happening. Only 18% of white HR leaders in those same positions believe racism is still. So, such a big difference, you know.
Huge. And that's what happens when, you know, to go to what you were saying, when people don't have a voice, then that is the, that perception difference grows. It doesn't shrink. And I think of this way, I know we were talking about this a little bit beforehand as well. I think that the more advocates in organizations in the world that exist out there, the better, and there are a lot of white men and women in positions of power who might be listening to this and going, maybe I realize this, maybe I didn't, maybe I didn't realize how extensive it was. What can they do? What are some of the things that will help to make space for the voices of women of color, to move these changes forward, to not let it stagnate and go back to what it was two years ago where racism didn't exist in the workplace allegedly.
Yeah. Well, first, in the book I call, you know, white leaders co-conspirators, right? This idea that, and it's not my term, but I really liked that term, this idea that in order to make change, we need to make change together. You know, it can't just be the people of color that are making change against, you know, racism in the workplace. So we all need to be in it. I think I already said that we need to give ourselves permission to get it wrong. So, you know, I'm deep in this work, and I still get terms wrong. I still, you know, struggle sometimes with saying the right thing so I can not expect a white leader to get it right on racism when we don't know this work, right? A lot of the women I interviewed what was fascinating is that most of them didn't talk about racism at home, you know, or especially if it was talked about, it was not racism at work. So they were not prepared for incidents when they happened. So you can only imagine if we're not talking about it what's happening to, you know, our white colleagues. So again, just kind of permission to get it wrong. I think the other thing is, it's more important to try and ask questions. So I always give an example of, like, in a meeting when a microaggression or a racist incident happens. I tell women of color in the book to be prepared. You know the five or six things that have come up for you in the last couple of years, they're gonna happen again. Have a response ready. And I tell women, write it out. And then practice saying those responses. Like have three ready when something happens. Because most of us, when it happens, find ourselves covered in shame and pain that we can't always speak up. But what I tell co-conspirators is that you can speak up, too. So if someone just said something or something just doesn't feel right, you can say, can we pause the meeting? You know, I just wanna make sure that that landed the same way it's landing for me 'cause I didn't feel right, or, you know, after the meeting, we're gonna have to talk about this a little bit more 'cause I'm not sure that that had the intended result. Whatever that is for you, but you have to practice saying it out loud either. 'Cause a lot of us, we worry about offending people. We talked about this earlier. We worry about making people uncomfortable, and this work is going to make people uncomfortable, 'cause it's never been dealt with before, but there are ways to do it, that call people in versus call them out. And I think that's where we have to get comfortable with the words and the trying and the tone so that we do make space for people to really learn as opposed to kind of, you know, really embarrassing them. 'Cause I don't know that that always helps. At the same time, I'm okay with embarrassing people. If you've tried three times and they're still not getting it, then it's okay to say, like, that really, like, that's just not acceptable and I don't need to explain it to you, you know. I think that's awesome.
Yes. Yep. I love that. And I think it's a really important message, and I think it's really important to remember that that have a response, absolutely. I use this with people when I coach with them, which is like, if you don't have a statement that you can make, have a question you can ask to hopefully help them highlight so you have a minute to recover, right? So hopefully, they will highlight and understand in their own brain, oh, shit, I just said something I shouldn't have said with the questionnaire. That's okay too. And at a certain point when they are not getting it, when you've repeated or asked the question multiple times, you no longer have to have space for their feelings in that moment. You don't have to be the nice girl or the nice boy or whatever, the nice guy anymore. Now, you can call it out. And I think that is really important because too often, we'll just keep asking the question or keep making the statement, which then stops being heard and we're no longer advocating for ourselves and it actually undermines our voice longer term. For us, not for them, for us.
Yeah, no, no. I mean, do it however you do it, but the point is you have to be prepared, because I think it's naive to think that you're not gonna be in a meeting where something racist or something uncomfortable or someone is going to just be inappropriate. It doesn't have to be racist, but just how are you gonna react. How are you gonna react on Zoom? How are you gonna react in person? And those are things you should really think about in this day and age.
Yeah.
I think it's really important to be thoughtful.
Yep. I completely agree. I wanna thank you for taking the time to chat with me today. This has been extremely interesting. I think it's an important topic and I hope everyone who is listening to this goes out and gets your book, "The First, the Few, the Only: How Women of Color Can Redefine Power in Corporate America," whether they are women of color or not. I think this is an important resource for everyone. And so thank you for speaking to me about it and for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me. It was a great conversation.
[Celine] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.