In a sea of people who are all doing the same thing, your portfolio of relationships is your greatest asset and biggest differentiator--the thing that sets you apart. Hear from, internationally recognized expert, David Nour about building strategic relationships at work.
Today's guest, David Nour is a senior leadership/board advisor, educator, executive coach, and bestselling author of 11 books. He is internationally recognized as the leading expert on applications of strategic relationships in profitable growth, sustained innovation, and lasting change. Plus, he's super entertaining, has great energy, and is just a lot of fun to talk to!
We discuss growth mindset vs fixed mindset, work-life balance, the 3 types of friends you should have, why we need to be intentional and strategic about our relationships, and lots more.
David came equipped with all of the quick tips and witticisms for this interview! Here are a few of my favorites:
"Throw away your stopwatch and get a compass instead. It doesn’t matter how fast you do something. Are you headed in the right direction? What’s important?"
"You don’t have a work life and a personal life. You have one life. The sooner you figure out how to integrate and blend the two, the more competent and capable of a human being you’re going to become."
"Convey your credibility through the questions that you ask, not through the solutions you provide. Want better answers? Ask better questions!"
For the rest, you'll have to listen in. Enjoy.
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To learn more about David Nour, you can grab a copy of his new book (Curve Benders) that *just* came out!
Visit him online at https://nourgroup.com/. Or, find him on any of the social platforms (LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram) by searching "David Nour".
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is David Nour, who is a senior leadership advisor, educator and executive coach, and the author of the recently released book "Curve Benders" David, I'm very, I love it, very excited to have you on today.
It's great to be with you.
First of all, as anyone who watches or listens to this knows, we always do a little bit of a pre-chat, and you are very entertaining and energetic. So I'm really excited to get into all of this with you, because you have an amazing energy.
And I need more friends like you in my life. Are you available, can we go on a road show?
Anytime.
Can we take this podcast on the road? Let's go.
100% That would be my dream. So I always like to start with sort of the big, broad question before we get into your areas of specialty, and I know there are a lot of them, but when you hear the idea of leading through crisis which is what this podcast is about, right, leading through change, what comes to mind for you when you hear that?
I often think about elasticity,
Ooh.
And if you, think about that idea, right? Let's just take for your listeners, a rubber band, right? So if you pull it back, you're stretching, you're anticipating, much more importantly, you accelerate going through that rough spot, and ideally you're stronger for it on the other side. So this global pandemic and other challenges, other obstacles, other disruptions that most of your listeners face, it will pass, your success through it, and what is gonna delineate your ability to not just survive but thrive through it. And that's the real opportunity is, "What did you learn?" My biggest fear through to this whole thing is we don't learn anything, and we keep going back to a lot of the dysfunction that we had before in our lives, like 1-1/2 hour commutes into the office, like on the road several hundred days a year. Are you kidding me? We've learned through this grand experiment of, let's send a 100 million people to work from home, that it surprisingly worked really well the last 14 months, and we figured out how to be productive. We figured out as knowledge workers that I don't have to show up with physical proximity to get things done. So this idea of learning from a crisis and that elasticity to make us stronger, on the other side, has a lot to do with that growth mindset going into it, the ability to, you don't, none of us have a crystal ball, so how can we plan, and much more importantly, what were your learning moments that you feel like you're better off because of? Beyond the lives and the livelihoods, because of that crisis, you're stronger. You're wiser. You're more capable of facing the next one.
So first of all, I really appreciate the shift into learning from a crisis, because I think that is often the opportunity of leading through it, is the learning that comes from it, and it also makes me think, one of the things that I keep hearing, and I'm sure you have as well, is that people can't relate, can't relate, can't wait to return to normal. We can't wait to return to, what was so great about normal?
And I actually, you're exactly right, and I push back, there's no going back, at the risk of never being invited back, there's no going back. We'll only go forward, right? We'll move forward, so, and I believe words matter. So stop talking about getting back to, and let's talk about moving forward, so to build on that, I actually believe a lotta leaders right now are thinking about getting back to work, completely wrong, because most of the conversation you and I hear is, should we come in to the office two days a week, or three days a week? Who cares? Instead, what if we re-imagined? What if we rethink? What if we reinvent that job? Because we figured out that we could do it, for most of us as knowledge workers, we could do it from anywhere. Now it's difficult to manufacture, right? It's difficult to do some of these jobs where you need to be in physical proximity, but let's bring a whole bunch of people into an office to do what? Just stare at each other? And if you, I'm happy to dissect any and every part of what we used to do, from interviewing to hiring, to onboarding, to performance reviews, to promoting people, to celebrating, a lot of it was the pre-pandemic kind of mindset.
Mm hmm.
14 months-plus later, we better figure out how to adapt, how to embrace, a new approach to, and this is, by the way, a very good example, very quick example for your audience. Do you care about outcomes or output? Because output is what you do and how you do it. It's often a means to an end, because the outcome is really what matters. So if you measure the outcome, if you compensate the outcome, if you focus on the outcome, do you really care when and where and how the output is done? Because I like my wife, and I really like to go have lunch with her and maybe take the dogs for a walk in the afternoon, but I'll come back to email after the kids go to bed.
Yeah.
Right? And I'd love to, I'd be there if my kid is in fact going to school, I like to be there for them when they leave in the morning, let's have breakfast together, and be home when they come home and hug 'em and have a snack with 'em, but I'll get the work done. So I think rethinking, re-imagining, reinventing work is a huge opportunity for us to create, and what I wrote in "Curve Benders," this idea of work-life blending that I think would be a lot more valuable than the struggle of the work-life balance that we all try to accomplish or achieve.
Well, I don't think work-life balance has ever been a real thing. I think it's been a hilarious illusion and a lot of really pretty language about finding something that's not real, and I do think that especially for knowledge workers, work-life blending is really, the, it's how you have to think about it. It's how you have to think about where you're putting your time and energy, and it's, as much as the pandemic has been challenging, and I'm not saying it hasn't, it's also given us an actual opportunity and forced us into a position where everyone can rethink this, not just a few people who were at the forefront of rethinking work going, "Hey, we don't all have to, we should have options. People should be able to choose how they work and when. Hey, hey, listen to us." Now, everyone is in a position where they've seen it work a different way.
You're exactly right, and I go back to your overarching theme of leading through a crisis. The best leaders I know are the holistic ones. They bring the best version of themselves to what they do, how they do it, and particularly going into a crisis and coming out of it stronger, as I alluded to, you need that holistic you. I don't know about you or your audience. I've certainly felt this way. While I'm on vacation, I'm thinking about all the damn emails that are piling up.
Of course.
And while I'm working, I'm like, I'd really rather be on vacation, right? So there's just this constant pull and tug at us all the time, versus you know what I ride for your audience, I ride motorcycles, and my favorite is long distance. So in the states, we've got the Route 66, which is just historic. And it goes from Chicago, right, all the way to Santa Monica Pier. It is like so iconic, and you're not gonna see it flying over it. You're not gonna see it driving the main highway. So a couple of years ago, I decided to take my motorcycle, and it's about 4,000 miles, so I live in Atlanta, Atlanta-Chicago, Chicago-Santa Monica Pier, it took me about a week, but you know what? I took my laptop with me. It was in the trunk of my bike, and when you put in the earplugs and you put it in the headsets, nobody's calling. Nobody wants to have a Zoom meeting and you can disengage. And yet when I got to the hotel and showered and cleaned up and ate and I got the laptop, and I checked email, I responded to people, and so, I'm reminded that a mentor, and I do believe we're all products of the advice we take.
Mm hmm.
A mentor drove into me. You don't have a work-life and a personal life. You have one life, so the sooner you can figure out how to integrate, how to blend those two, I think the more competent, capable leader, manager, human being you're gonna become.
Yeah, I love that. I love that you're the product of the advice you take. I think that's a really, I think that's a, more important for people to realize than they think, because I think a lot of us hear advice and just go, "Hey, that's like reading a book," right? I always joke like the number of books you read where you're like, "Oh, that's really interesting. Maybe I'll do something about that one day," and then nothing happens.
So two other pieces of wisdom come to mind. I'm pretty sure I've checked the calendar and someday is not one of the seven, Right? That's number one, number two, again, another mentor drove into me, throw away your stopwatch and get a compass.
Ooh.
And I got to tell you, first time I heard that it was like, wait, what? And what it was conveying is, it doesn't matter how fast you do something, especially for some of those alpha males and females, right? We want to get going, "I've got to get done, let's go, I've got to do things." And it's like, okay, just throw away the stopwatch and get a comp, are you headed in the right direction? Because if not, your ultimate destination is also gonna be skewed.
Yeah.
And I'm really surprised through this pandemic how few people actually have a compass? Where are you going? What does that look like? I think it got recalibrated, right? We figured out what we like. I like spending time with my family. I like staying home and pre-pandemic, I would just excuse that, hey, some people got in their car to go to work. I get in an airplane to go to work.
Mm hmm.
208 days on the road wears on you, right? And you wake up in a city and like, where am I again? I'm what am I doing, am I Ubering it, or is a car picking me up? Am I going to them, or are they coming to me? And I just think this pandemic has helped us recalibrate things that are really important to us and crisis or not, you're not gonna be very effective at work trying to lead through a crisis if the home life isn't stable, and you're not gonna have a whole lot of fun at home if work is a mess.
Because we're whole, complete human beings who do not have a different personality, in one, we're not, "Oh, I am work Seline and this is the only time that work Seline shows up." Like, the fact that organizations, business, the way we work, whatever you want to call it, has glorified that for so long. I always say that one of my biggest pet peeves is that idea of there's no crying in baseball, which we basically took and applied to business. You can't have emotions in business 'cause they're not logical and rational. We are humans who have a mind. So you don't want to work with people is what you're saying?
I'm gonna go one step further.
Please.
A good friend, Peter Bregman, is the author of a book called "Leading With Emotional Courage," and I love Peter's comment when he says, "If you don't allow yourself to feel everything, soon you're not gonna feel anything." So it's not about not feeling that emotion, if you don't have those, you better get your pulse checked. It's disconnecting your emotions from your decision-making. It's disconnecting that I feel angry. I feel overwhelmed. I feel disappointed. I feel, those things you better feel. It's just, don't send an email when you're angry or disappointed or do not, for the love of God, do not tweet when you're disappointed or angry or, right? So what happens is, if you don't disconnect that emotion from the decision-making, or the problem solving, or your communication, or your interaction with others, you're no longer in your control. That emotion is. And that emotion, by the way bottling it up is also not a good answer, because then you're gonna blow up at somebody that has nothing to do with what you just, and hopefully it's not the spouse or the kids or anybody for that matter. So the emotions, believe it or not, are part of our species and part of our evolution, and you're not human if you don't feel. So you should feel anger and disappointment and joy and all those, range of 'em.
Yep.
Just have to, and the executives that coach, you can quickly ascertain, do most things get under their skin? And then, do they knee-jerk reaction respond? Or do they have that professional maturity? You say, "Okay, hold on a second, I'm gonna breathe. I want to take a second to just breathe. And yes, I feel angry. I feel disappointed, I feel let down, I feel like, why didn't I get that promotion?" Or why didn't, you know, I didn't get that opportunity or why am I not leading that? And all those things are natural. We just got to separate 'em, and so again, you would love, since you love my other comments, this is another one that I heard years ago that I've used. Don't become permanently stupid, because you're temporarily upset.
Yes.
I feel like I'm gonna have so many quotables at the end of this.
I'm just a walking tweet. I'm just a walking Twitter kind of feed, the sound bytes, there you go.
Yeah.
But think of it, another one, right? It's another great one.
100%.
Don't become permanently stupid, right? Quit the job, quit the project, fire somebody, whatever, because you're temporarily upset.
Yep.
That upset, that temporary feeling will pass, and the more you can separate the way you feel with how you speak, how you communicate, how you behave, how you show up, I think is one of those superpowers.
I could not agree with you more. We're meant to have feelings or information. All feelings are good. There's no such thing as a bad feeling. How we express those feelings is not always appropriate. And that's really the key, right? It's like, and this goes back to the whole human, not, you're not one person at work, one person at home that you were talking about is that if you are trying to not have feelings at work, if you're trying to bottle things up at work, then that comes out at home and vice-versa. You can't separate these things out. You can't, the balance between the two, they're always blended, because you are one person. We are all one, we are one person.
You know, like a very simple technique that I've found to be really powerful.
Yes
In middle of this heated crisis, this happens all the time. Crisis just, there's a lot of things that are coming at you and everything seems to be important, and you've got seven glass plates that are spinning and you can't drop any of them, and believe it or not, I am coaching a lot of people to a pause and breathe, just to, and this is by the way, mathematically proven. If you get away from a problem and revisit it with a fresh lens, fresh perspective, you have dramatically a better chance of solving it. So I'm actually, and the pandemic accelerates some of this especially those that live in the same town or area that I do, is that I live near a park and we go for walking meetings. You would be amazed of just disengaging from that scenario, talking to somebody else through it. Just, one of my clients also has their campus, is around, it's a man-made lake, but it's a really nice lake, and it takes about 45 minutes to walk the whole grounds, and several times I've done several projects for them, and several times when I go to the campus, like, "Okay, let's get out of this stiff office. Let's go for a walk," and we do. We walk around the lake and we'll just talk. And it's just it, I dunno if it's the oxygen, groceries in, garbage out. I don't know if it's just getting out and moving. I don't know what it is, but it physically changes your perception, your lens, it clears your thinking. And it's just a really good tool to disengage from scenarios where there's a high tendency. you're gonna either say something you're gonna regret, do something you're gonna regret, and just goes back to measure twice, cut once.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it's really interesting because I feel like in the hybrid way of working that is starting, it's not, this is not a, it's happening, we are in it, in the new way of working. I feel like that for those who are not in the same space, and hear something like that and who are not comfortable being in the same space, that when you hear something like that, it's like, yeah, but that doesn't work 'cause we're not gonna be in the same office, or we're not gonna be in person, or we're not, et cetera, et cetera, which is a fair reaction if you have, if you're only hearing the exact words that you're saying. So, for people who are in that situation, I'm curious, what are other ways they can? Cause I think what you're saying is, by the way, super valuable, I wanna acknowledge that different lens on a problem, stepping out of it, 100% agree. For those who are hearing, going, "I can't do that in that way." What could they do?
Hey, it goes back to something else. that philosophically I deeply believe in, which is you're never too old or too young to be a mentor or find a mentor, and the best leaders I know surround themselves with this inner circle of people they like, they respect, they trust, if nothing else, Celine, as a sounding board, right? As here's what I'm thinking, what do you think? Almost like call a friend, right? So, and I jokingly say you ideally should have three types, right? Somebody within your department or function who understands what you go through, somebody within the company that understands the culture, somebody completely outside of it and the ability which goes back to the power of our relationships, right? So particularly if it's people you don't have to impress, I'm not convinced you want to go to your boss with every issue that's bothering you, right? Otherwise, they're gonna think they're in a babysitting business. If you develop a diverse portfolio of relationships, I'm not talking about the garbage contacts and followers and the transactional stuff that we're confusing as relationships. I'm talking about few, real, authentic, hopefully value-based relationships. You can then, fine you're not in the same office with those people. Great, call a friend. "Do you have a minute?" And I do this all the time. I text people. Can we talk for a few minutes? And by the way, nobody wants to talk for the next three hours, right? Everybody's busy. So just, there's enormous value in brevity. But if you call that friend and just say and they don't need the background information they don't need to know when you are in the third grade, what happened to you? Right. So please get to the point. Here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? And just letting somebody who's not as emotionally attached to something, this happened to a, it goes without naming names, but a client I'm coaching called me the other night, sends me a text. Can we talk? And we actually talked after she put the kids to bed and she was upset that, and one of our peers was asked to represent the company at something. And, and it's, it's really more her area of expertise. And she was concerned of why am I getting passed over for this opportunity? And I said, breathe. And I kinda knew a little more about the subject area, I said, I know for a fact that that environment was scheduled like three months ago four months ago, it wasn't that somebody and she just got promoted in this job about a month ago. So the timing, this was planned well before. So you pick your fights, this one isn't worth it. This one isn't right now, if it's something based on your values or if they're misaligned or right something you deeply believe in, absolutely stand up for yourself and say something, but pick your fights. And so having someone to walk you off the ledge, right, with whatever you're struggling with is really helpful. So surround yourself, right now, as you listen to this podcast, sit down and make a list of who are the three people who are the five professional relationships you could call that you don't have to impress. And you could simply say Celine, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? Here's what I'm struggling with? What would you do? Here's a person that I'd like to choke the life out of but murder is still illegal. So how do I deal with this person? Having those kind of conversations and getting 'em off your chest, I think would just go a long way.
So I'm gonna ask this question, because I think this gets into a little bit about what your book is about, right? "Curve Benders," because it's, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it there's a big piece of it is around this idea of of relationships and strategic relationships.
Unequivocally, yes. That's been my life's work the last 20 years and yeah I actually put the future of work lens on it
Which I love. So I am curious how can, and this is not a how 'cause listen, I'm gonna phrase it as a how but it's not solve everyone's problems and give everyone a generic answer. But when people are thinking about building relationships or curating these strategic relationships, or really what the next step of them looks like. What are some of the things that you would advise them to keep an eye out for, or to pay attention to, or to be aware of? Because you've created this framework this is your life's work.
Sure. So I think it's important to, let me take a step back, my first book for your audience, my first book was called "Relationship Economics," and in it, I think I build up a compelling case that if you nurture that interaction in a logical way, in a I'm talking about business contacts and you add value and you receive value. So think of a stair-step contacts, you invest in them. They become a relationship. If you nurture, sustain, care, feed that relationship over some period of time. A few of those actually become strategic relationships. My most recent book number 10 was called "Co-create," where I said two or more relationships can come together. And just like a spouse or children, co-create something that you have a vested interest in its long-term success. That by the way, neither one of you could do by yourself. So I call "Curve Benders." So "Relations Economics," "Co-create," and "Curve Benders," my Star Wars Trilogy, 'cause any of 'em can stand alone by themselves. But you really gonna get to know Luke Skywalker a lot better if you watch Episode Four, Five, and Six, right?
Sure.
So in "Curve Benders," I talk a lot about, and to come full circle to your question, not every contact is a viable relationship. Not every relationship is a viable strategic relationship. Some relationships are transactional, right? I'm not sure I want a relationship with a guy that bags my groceries, right? Nice guy, but not really relevant to me, right? From a professional standpoint, again, and sociologists tell us an average individual can proactively manage about 100 to 150 relationships, so which ones? So number one, you have to be more intentional, two, ideally you're more strategic, right? I talk about why most networking doesn't work, because there's no purpose, there's no goal, there's no plan. So have an outcome in mind. And this isn't about using people or manipulating people, have a purpose, have a reason of, why do I want to build relationships? Why is this person, why am I interested them? Why do they have interest or value to me? And, and it has to be reciprocal, right? When you do invest, when you, they feel that they're better off because you're in their life, because you work together on this project or this initiative or you're in this team together, they actually look forward to getting your calls and emails and they respond back, right? So I'm pretty convinced the influencers, the YouTube influencers and Instagram have ruined it for all of us, because they somehow equate quantity with quality, so if I have a bazillion, that's a very technical term, by the way, a bazillion followers, somehow I'm an influencer. I'm knowledgeable about something. What I really want your audience to hear is that almost everybody has a BS radar, and particularly in the post-pandemic world, I would submit fewer, but more real, more authentic, more genuine, more value-based. Relationships are gonna be dramatically more valuable to you. So during this pandemic, whose cell phone numbers did you have, versus just their office number, because nobody was going into the office who returned your calls, and emails in 24 hours? Who did you prioritize? Who did you neglect? If you think about that, those set of questions, I think it will help you realize most of us have a prioritized list of relationships we believe to be most valuable to us. So how are you nurturing and caring for those?
I have two things I want to say. The first is a comment, which is I very much appreciate what you said about the YouTubers and the influencers who, and their followers because it's a constant pet peeve of mine that people get hung up on the number of followers they have or I have this many connections on wherever. So therefore they, that means something or I'm more likely to have a successful business or be a successful executive, whatever. And it's like, that is a vanity metric, and I use that term on purpose, but it's a vanity metric. It's so you can say to someone, "Hey, I have this many followers" so you should care about my thoughts 'cause they care. It's a big pet peeve, so thank you for bringing that up, because it has affected how people see relationships, I think, more than the average person is thinking about. So I think that's really important. The second thing, and that's really a question, is if someone is interested, so if you're thinking on your past year and who you reached out to, and who's, you know been texting or whatever, who you've been in relationship with, in conversation with, and you think, you know there's one person that I really haven't been in contact a lot with, but who I do I care about them and they're valuable to me. And I can see value in our relationship growing even though it's not there yet but I don't know how to reach out to them. And I don't know what to say, and I don't know what to do and I don't want to be that person. And, you know, what would you suggest that people step into that? Because I think there's a lot of people at this point in the pandemic who have a similar story in their life?
Use me and use this podcast episode as an excuse, right? So I heard these people talking about relationships and it dawned on me, right? I've always believed, the view is nicer if you take the high road. It dawned on me that I've done a terrible job staying in touch with you, so without an agenda, I'm just calling and for your audience, when the pandemic hit, one of the first things I did is I made a list of my Top 100 business relationships, and I use this pre-historic device called the telephone where you actually pick it up and you hit these buttons, and the person picks up at the other end and you hear their voice and-
What?
and no shocker, right. And I didn't call them to sell them anything. I called them to simply ask, how are you doing? And what are you seeing and what are you hearing and how are you thinking and leading differently when you don't have all the data. And I'm blessed because I have clients in the manufacturing space, and I have clients in non-profits, I've clients in the U.S., and I've clients in Europe and even Asia Pacific. And it was fascinating, especially early on in this pandemic to get very different lenses and perspectives around the same challenge. And I'm now going back and full circle again, right? Last time we talked was in April, before that was in September, and I'm coming back, check in, what are your post-pandemic plans? What does your company, industry, your team your efforts look like? Listen to what I'm still not selling anything. This has nothing to do with what I do. It has everything to do with how they are better off because when a relationship together. So first thing you have to do is be intention, you know, make a list. There's an African proverb best as if you want shade. The best time to have planted a tree was 20 years ago. The next best opportunity is today. So today, as you listening to this podcast, make a list who and is a very simple question, who are your top 30? Who are your top 50? Who are your top 100 business relationships? You know, a lot more people than you think you do. Make a list, start at the top and just go down the list. I've done a terrible job staying in touch with you. I'm embarrassed, would love to just reconnect and get caught up on both sides. How are you doing? How are things going? What have you learned from this pandemic? What will you choose to do differently on the other side of it? Have you been vaccinated? Are you excited or concerned about reconnecting with people? By the way, you want better answers? Ask better questions, convey your credibility to the questions you ask, not necessarily the solutions you provide, and if you are become genuinely interested in them you'd be amazed of at some point they got to ask, well, have you been and what are you up to and what are you doing? And glad you asked I, my COVID moment was fill in the blank, and it gives you a chance to get and keep your network. And I genuinely believe beyond your educational foundation, your professional pedigree, your portfolio of relationships are your biggest asset. And it's your only sustainable differentiator whether you're leading through a crisis or not. It is that which sets us apart from everybody else that can say they do the exact same thing. How many attorneys do you know? How many accountants do you know? How many consultants do you know? How many coaches do you know? How many project management professionals, you know? For most of us, what we do could be perceived as a commodity, and it's those relationships that set us apart from our competitive peers. Does that make sense? Does that resonate?
100%, a hundred, I mean, I feel like I could talk to you for another hour and a half.
For audience, I'll be back again next week, with a new tip of the week and we're just gonna keep, Seline and I will just keep this going,
I mean, we're taking it on the road, right?
We're taking this on the road.
That is the plan. David, thank you for joining me. You are fascinating. I really truly do hope to have you back at some point. I really enjoyed this, and your energy is phenomenal.
Very kind of you, thank you for having me. I'm always elated to talk about ideas that I hope will help others, help your listeners. I've captured some of these in the "Curve Benders" book, and I would encourage your audience, if they've gotten value from this, pick up a copy, and I'd love my contact info is in there. I'd love to hear from you and hear your thoughts on it.
Absolutely, and listen, we will have links to "Curve Benders" in the show notes for anyone who's listening or watching this, but people can find it at all major book retailers, I believe.
Absolutely, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target, Walmart on and on and on, yes,
Basically, you can find David anywhere.
Just Google the name.
David, thank you, I appreciate you so much, and I look forward to doing this again sometime.
My pleasure, thanks for having me.
Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.