In this episode, we talk to David Lahey about empathy in the workplace and using data and AI to enhance leadership skills. We also get into the #1 reason Gen Z is leaving and how to soften the blow of layoffs and terminations.
Today’s guest, David Lahey is the Founder, President and CEO of Predictive Success (a company that focuses on assessment and analytics to support leadership development, talent acquisition, change management, and productivity in a variety of industries).
Join us for a discussion about:
- Empathy in the workplace
- Using data and AI to enhance your leadership skills
- The #1 reason Gen Z is leaving
- How to soften the blow of layoffs and terminations
“Managers can be upskilled to use objective data to manage, lead, and coach better… When you reduce drama at work, everything gets better.”
Listen in, and take your FREE predictive assessment here.
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David’s academic background includes an MBA graduate from the Smith School of Business at Queen’s University, Graduate coursework at Harvard University and Graduate Adult Education coursework at the University of Toronto. David has been specializing in predictive leadership development, talent acquisition, change management and productivity with analytics for over 25 years across a variety of industries.
Under David’s leadership, Predictive Success was awarded to three-time Profit 500 company status. His company was also named to The Globe and Mail’s Fastest Top 400 Growing Companies List in 2019. Before founding Predictive Success Corporation, David was a Global Leader of Financial Services at Microsoft and led record growth for international business units in The United States and Canada.
David has trained over 3,000 leaders in The Predictive Index Software, is a guest lecturer at Queen's University, and is a best-selling author of “Predictive Success- Evidence Based Hiring” (Wiley 2009) and more recently “From Hire to Inspire” (ECW Press, Toronto 2020).
Learn more about Predictive Success at predictivesuccess.com.
- I'm Celine Williams, and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. A conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is David Lahey, the Founder and CEO of Predictive Success, and best-selling author of "From Hire to Inspire: "How to Become the Best Boss," I almost said that wrong. I'm glad I caught that, welcome David.
Welcome, it's great to be here, thanks for the opportunity, Celine.
Absolutely, I'm excited to talk to you today. But before we get into some of the thing we're gonna talk about, I'm gonna ask the question I ask every guest at the top. Which is, the name of the podcast is "Leading Through Crisis." When you hear that phrase what comes up for you, or what does that mean to you?
Well I mean, it can mean a lot of things. But I went through a personal crisis four years ago. I was in the best shape of my life, leading a great company here in Toronto in analytics. And heard the words that you don't wanna hear from your GP, that I had stage four throat cancer. And so, wow, that's a game changer. So the crisis for me was to get through this. I wanted to live to see my grand child being born, grand children. But there was a really personal crisis ahead. So I very quickly started working with my team at Prentice Martyr at Lincoln Cancer Hospital in Toronto. And looking at my team was gonna help me. And so the crisis was, maybe sad a little bit when the doctor said, "Well don't worry, 75% of people with throat cancer beat it. "And you should be fine." But in my case, I fell into the 25%, so I had a double crisis. And I had to make a change in my medical team. And my team, they were great. But they were really process people and precision people, and they didn't really bring my tumor was my tumor was growing. And so, my own personal crisis was to be alive. I was given four and a half weeks to live. And if I had not changed my medical team, I wouldn't be here with you today. My new doctor, Dr. Logan, is super on immunotherapy. Which is the game changer now in cancer treatment. And my crisis was averted, and I've been on the path to recovery for the last two and a half years.
That is the definition of a crisis. That is one of, you know, there is, I hear often stories of, in general, I'm not saying on the podcast. But people who, unfortunately cancer is, everyone knows someone who has had cancer at this point, right? This is, it's the reality. And, there's a really big difference between hearing that you have cancer, and here's a path of treatment that you know, has a 75-90% chance, versus four and a half weeks to live. That is the definition of a crisis.
You know, it's kind of hard to say. But if you're thinking about, I'm gonna be speaking at Queen's University Friday night, at my immune reunion. They asked me to speak about how do you think about having a second chance at life? I think about a crisis as an opportunity to restart. I think a crisis when handled properly, and rationally, is a wake-up call for all of us. And personally, I have been given a second chance at life, and I'm not gonna waste it. A lot of leaders that we come across in business, are put into crisis where maybe sales are falling, or operation costs are soaring, or they've just been purchased by a venture capital company. And so, a lot of times they just need to think about, hey, take a yoga breath. What can I control, what can I influence, how do I show up at work? And, how can I put together a recovery path that makes sense for you personally as a leader, but also to have the best outcome, or in business school we say "BATNA." And so in my case, you know, I really had not choice. I was not gonna be around. So, I very quickly shifted gears. And it takes some courage, of course, but I think most leaders and most people when focused, can be really strong at crisis management.
Well and the list that you named a few things, or take a yoga breath, the few things that in a crisis leaders can do to kind of pause and reassess. I'm curious of how many of the, I'm going to, I assume, that a number of those that you've used personally in your moment of crisis, but is there anything else that you have, that you found worked well for you, when leading through crisis or managing a crisis, whatever? Sometimes we're not leading, we're managing temporarily. Or you've seen work that you think, "I wish more people did that," or there was more of that when it comes to managing and leading through change.
Well I think a lot of it can be done by, you know, you being centered. Say this too, will pass. I had a phrase during my cancer recovery journey that faith versus fear. And we have anything where you are as a leader, obviously you've as a leader, you've earned the respect to get selected to this position, via CEO, or Director, VP of Sales, whatever the role is. And you got there because of your hard work. And you know, you don't all of a sudden forget that, or all of a sudden get dumb, as my old boss at Microsoft would say. So how do I, you know, what is the path that I wanna get on? And in my case, is how is the recovery gonna be enhanced by more objective thinking? In my healthcare situation, I needed someone here with more innovative, and someone who understood immunotherapy. And so, I had to go and get that level of knowledge and put them on my medical team. But a lot of leaders could really be smart in looking at crisis, and leveraging analytics and data. Because data is objective. You see a lot of talk of late, you know, there was even an article in "The Wall Street Journal," this week that, you know, the next CEO might be AI powered. And you know, a general manager underneath to execute. And what they meant by that article, and where AI could help us, is it could bring rational thinking into slowing down our pulse to make decisions that are not optimal. All of us have different personalities. And sometimes those personalities can put us in harm's way. Awhile, we did a study in Quebec just last month of the top 500 entrepreneurs at a chef's, a CEO summit. And the consistent personality analytics profile, and that what we used that predicted index to measure, was very assertive and very tenacious, and very impatient. That can work absolutely against you in a time of crisis when you need to be more rationale, more objective, and more automated in execution. So, software can be a friend and an enabler. And AI is just, you know, a wonderful vehicle to leverage that.
So I'm curious, I have a question that comes up when I hear that. And, I'm gonna acknowledge that. I am a big believer in data. I got, there's, and the question I'm about to ask is not the takeaway from data matters. And we need good, accurate valid information, right? That is the starting point. And, I actually see a lot of leaders, CEOs, executives, whether I've worked with them, or when I'm out speaking, whatever it is that fall into similar categories to what you're talking about. That assertive, impatient. What I don't see enough of, in my opinion, is data paired with empathy and understand, and nuanced to actually have it be in my opinion, and I'm fully not, but valuable and executable. And I'm curious if you see any version of that, if you completely disagree. If you, you know, how does that land for you? Because maybe it's just my experience, and that's okay.
No, your experience may honestly, I mean the new black is empathy. And in 2023 in Canada, we did 523,000 assessments, or personality tests, with a predictive index, here at Predictive Success. So we have a lot data, we closely study it. And the number one reason that the Gen-Z, or Gen-Z people, as we say in Canada, are leaving is that, "My manager doesn't care about me." So the lack of empathy is absolutely traumatic in the workplace. And we teach a lot of leaders to be thinking about being more subjective. Being more empathic. And then again, the study from Quebec just recent, was that the talk leaders were assertive, they were tenacious, and they were also for the majority, subjective, and more empathic in their decision-stop. And so, that's very helpful. In fact, the work that we're doing with people in the medical profession, a lot of doctors. They're wonderful people. Very detailed, very processed. They're leaders that are very technical. But unfortunately a lot of them lack empathy, they're very objective, and that bedside manner is challenged. And then on top of that, you're challenged with their time being usually in clinic, or research. And it's been a double whammy. So, I would agree with you that empathy is the new black, if we're leaders. We should all be, and it's coachable, which is great. So all leaders should be self-aware on is there a lack of empathy on their path to being more empathic? Or you know, the ability to connect with their employees, their colleagues, you know, in taking time. Everything is not all about work. And so, you'll see a lot of people trying to come back, or ordering people back to the office, both in the United States and Canada. And the best managers are taking the time to get to know their people on a more granular level. And in our case, the use of analytics, like the predictive index of has been very helpful. 'Cause it's a roadmap of how to coach, how we communicate with that direct report. And that shows empathy, which is a real strong case of putting a trust deposit at work, which increases engagement and lowers turnover.
So I think that I appreciate your perspective on that. I just wanna acknowledge that I appreciate your perspective on that. And I'm glad, for lack of a better way of saying it to hear that, I'm not crazy in my, the balance of data and empathy, and the balance needs to be there.
Absolutely, yep, yep.
And I'm curious, so I think there's lots of times where in the workplace, especially, because people have KPIs to hit, or they have goals that they need to meet. Or they, productivity, productivity, productivity. Whatever the mantra is. I think there are lots of times where empathy and understanding gets pushed to the wayside. To the side, it just doesn't, people stop leaning on it, thinking about it, using it. You know, whatever you wanna say. And I know you've done some work on navigating layoffs with empathy. I know you've done some work on where empathy shows up. And, I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about that. Because layoffs is a great example. But I think there's a lot of. It's a place that's a big topic right now. Lots of layoffs are happening, North America especially, but around the world. And empathy is, kind of becomes like, "This is business, this is just what we do, which is-"
Is forced to leave, or move on. So their next visit. Hence you know, they're communicated to professionally. And I think a lot of the times, people forget, or managers forget, that you hired them, all right? You hired them, or someone hired them. And that was gracious. So the exit should be gracious, and should be professional. You know, clearly some people are, employees are not making the grade, are not getting the number. It's easier in sales of course, there's more kind of drive. But in terminations where we have to remove a layer of management, it moves us as leaders, as investors in companies to maintain our brand. Because you know, when a termination is done poorly, they're gonna go out and talk about that company on social media, with a vicious slant that's gonna hurt the brand, or the company dramatically. And so it beholds leaders to think about the exact personality of the people that they're leaving. And terminating people in an email is absolutely brutal. And we see that sometimes where companies that can need some coaching. But you have an ability to make the termination, or the change, a soft landing. And soft landing is done with delicacy. And it's done with the intimacy of understanding the personality of the person that you're severing. And that's where analytics can come in. You know, in our case there's 17 different types of personalities at work. Well, I don't think you would want to speak to all 17 people the same way, in any conversation. But in particular, a termination. You know, we have people that are very, we call social and persuasive. And to terminate them in a one-line email is devastating. They need that face-to-face, they need a little heart-to-heart, and taking the time to do that is cheaper in the long run for the company. So I also, you know, having worked in an organization at, and worked with organizations, I'm hyper-aware that there's also an impact to the people who stay in the organization, especially, I worked at a company that there were layoffs that happened. They were one of those companies that like, when they were doing layoffs, or whatever they called them at the time, it would be on Friday. And you wouldn't really share a lot of information, and they would tell the people they can't tell the people on their team. And then by the time it was told to other people, there was already a rumor mill, and people...it just destroyed trust. It destroyed for the people that were left, it just, it deteriorated the trust over time. And I don't, you know, I don't know that, I hope things have changed. I don't know how much things have changed where people think about the impact on the remaining people, as well.
I mean, mental health is a real challenge in the workplace. I mean, we had a death of a professional golfer in the last couple of weeks, you know, top of his game. I mean, people have to pay attention to mental health at any level. And so, the people that are left behind... Excuse me. Sometimes they have more of what we call survivor anxiety. And, that's a real thing. I went through that myself. You know, why was I chosen to live when others in the cancer ward passed away. And I think the reality is, is that when we have the dream team, or a great team, and we have a manager that leads from the role of the employee, and a manager or a leader that is transparent. A manager, or leader, that is empathic, takes the time to get to know the individual on a personality way, and using analytics is a wonderful vehicle to do that. It creates so many trust deposits that when you need to take one and use one, such as a termination, it is accepted. And, there's business reasons why we have to right size this group. And when they're shared in a transparent way, it makes sense, you know, and it's understood. But when it's done in silly ways, or in non-transparent ways, it has a disastrous outcome. I remember a time when I was at Microsoft, and for whatever the reason, the president of Microsoft Canada, he was terminated, by the way, did not like the VP of Sales, Randy is his name. And made a decision to terminate him in front of all employees with two security guards walking him out. You know, the ultimate walk of shame. What that did for trust at Microsoft and financial services was devastating. You had several leaders lead, and went to other organizations. And that ultimate decision cost Microsoft at the time, millions and millions of dollars in lost productivity. That would be an example of what not to do, of course. So that president, I won't say the name, was terminated. Or as we like to say, promoted to customer. But that's not how you would do it. There are reasons why we have to contain cost. And when you have a team that has been built properly, people will understand. Transparency is one of the vehicles. And the second vehicle would be to do it with a prescribed process so that we're really being real with each person based on their own personality.
So I was, there will be a point to this story. I was, I saw something on social media recently that was a woman who got an email, had an invite on her calendar, realized that you know, she said, "I think I'm being laid off." And filmed herself during the call, it was a virtual call.
Yeah, yeah, that was great.
And okay so, and I was gonna say, you know, what was said to her, what you could hear, they bleeped out all the names, they bleeped out the specifics. But what was said in terms of acknowledging the situation, and why this was happening, and the impact on the business, and her role was one of the, I heard that and I thought, even though it's virtual, which can be harder, the way that HR person, or whoever it was that navigated that, I thought, "That was really well-done." There was a real level of empathy and transparency. And you know, giving this young woman space to kind of go through whatever, and hear what was being said. I'm curious, and I'm saying this because I saw that, and I was like, "Why?" Why do so many organizations struggle with transparency in moments like this? And feel the need to make it like all business, this is just the way it is, which still, it still happens. And I'm curious of your perspective on that, I love that you saw that, as well. And why the resistance?
Well, I like to look at organizations as the manager should be involved in the hiring process, obviously. And in that video, it should of been the hiring manager that was there. The termination was by an HR director and a colleague. So that was a miss for me. But companies can really reduce the negative impact by having that manager there at that meeting. And avoiding that is a huge miss. It does not lead to open communication. It does not help retain employee engagement. And it is a real challenge. I think a lot of managers can be up-scaled.
So what we find is that, Gardner suggested analytics training is really strongly advised for leaders, so they are aware of how to use objective data to manage better, to lead better, and to coach better. And that helps us in all conversations. You know, terminations as well as promotions, as well as, re-directions. And we see that in managers in the year ahead are gonna be asked, the remaining managers are gonna be asked to do even more. And so, it evokes companies to invest in those leaders, to train them up to use analytics to be better at those conversations. Be better at the coaching, Dick coaching. And analytics is the foundation that we all have a unique personality style, personality drives and behaviors, and decision-making style and energy level. And in our case, predictive index is that base. So we train leaders now more than ever before to be self-aware, to understand, and self-centered, under stress, or in conflict, or in crisis. And how to get to the level of what we call most effective influencing plateaus with our colleagues with transparency. So that managers are now trained to share their own personality profile with their colleagues, so that they know the style that will be ahead of them. I think when you reduce drama at work, everything gets better. And I think that when coaches are leaders that take the time to get to know their employees, that leads to more productive conversations. And you know, in the event of termination, it just becomes an easier discussion for both the employee and the leader.
I love that you said, it's a lot of the work that I do is around, you know, productive or constructive conversations versus destructive conversations.
Sure.
And to... The focusing on tailoring, and understanding, and coaching, how you communicate is imperative. And so many people, I'm not saying everyone, but there's still a lot of people who are resistant to the concept, because it quote/unquote takes more time. It takes longer if you have to get to know them, and tailor, and take the time, and sure. And I'm curious, 'cause I imagine you also hear that sometimes, is like, "Oh, it's so much more work and time." How do you speak to that when people, when you hear whatever version of that you hear? With some of the fastest growing companies in North America, that have set, so they're growing. So they've got very little time. I got one company, Craft Minds, and the meetings have to be 30 minutes or less, for example. And they've hired us to help them become more innovative. And so... If you can communicate to someone from their world, and understand their agenda, we found that can cut the meeting event in half. So if I can increase the effectiveness by more than 35%. So, taking the time to be analytically aware of what buttons to push, behavioral analytics is the vehicle, actually saves companies time. Some of the very best companies in Canada have been doing this for years. I looked to the work that we're doing with Telus, a wonderful company. And they have trained their managers to be analytically aware for over five years. It actually is an accelerator. I think a lot of the time, we get so caught up in the quarterly results, and the daily results, and our Zoom meeting. Going from Zoom, to Zoom, to Zoom, to Zoom. And not adjusting our style. And so, one of the best leaders I ever had at Microsoft said to me, you got eight or nine meetings to get to today in Outlook, for example. Do you adjust your personality style to the style of the person you're trying to influence? Or, are you powered through the day from your style? And at best, you would be one of 17, there are 17 profiles in society. And you really shoot and miss. So it actually is an accelerator, as I said in the beginning of the podcast, say take a yoga breath, and say, "What is the person I'm trying to influence all about?" And getting data, or analytic vehicle, like the predictive index, for example, is from my experiences is saving us time. We got a company Calex, which is a... Sorry, a company in San Jose, the CEO is a guy named Michael Weening, wonderful CEO. And his mandate was to take internet across the United States with wire. And very tenacious, stock market is their friend. They wanna make sure they're growing their stock. He took the time, effort, and energy to train up to 200 leaders with analytics, specifically predictive index. And he said, "You're over your growth." Which has been double digit now for five straight years. Because he invested in his leader. That's a pattern we're seeing there. I like the work that we've done with the earnings of Atlantic Canada for years. They're very smart people, very strong entrepreneurs. They've been training their managers in the use of analytics, in our case the predictive index, and user accelerator for them, for decades. So I think a lot of companies are smart to think about, I'm gonna do some type of training by leaders in your head. Because I'm gonna have to ask them for more, they're gonna have to be better people managers. And I have a lot of challenges at work. What, and the follow up question be from the managers, "Okay, what are you gonna do to invest in me "to be a better leader?" Something. And the new black is analytic training. So that I can understand Europe analytics. I can understand trends. These people were not rate of sales. Okay, what do they look like, behavior? Let's study, let's grade and model it. It's gotta be strong, and stronger in innovation, or whatever the job to be done. So a big miss here is that companies don't take a yoga breath, and say "What's the strategy?" And then, "Let's model the jobs that we need." And then, let's put those people into those jobs that fit them. And let's take people that don't fit, and put them into other roles that do fit them behaviorally, or bring a soft landing for them to go somewhere else where their time, talent and treasure is better suited for them, and for the company. So we can create a happy alumni chat outside of the company.
So... For... I imagine if I'm a, you know, leader in an organization and I'm listening to this, and I'm thinking, "This sounds great." "And there's, you know, no chance "my company is ever wanna do something like this. "And, you know, that's just the reality "of where I'm at right now." What can an individual who might find themself in that position, what could they do, or what can they takeaway from this to, for themselves, to start to make changes, or to, you know, find more of that balance of data, and empathy, and all of these things that we're talking about.
Well, they can always read my book, which all the proceeds go to Prentice Martyr. It's on Amazon, "From Hire to Inspire." So that, there's a lot of stories in there, is one thing. But I think that if you're with a company that will not invest in you, and your development as a leader, that's a red flag. I mean, there are a lot of opportunities out there for employees and leaders to make their own choice. But having to take control of your own training, you know, can be an option. Are you self-aware? So people on our website, predictivesuccess.com, all are listeners of this broadcast, podcast, will be given a free self-awareness survey, for example. We do that, and we do that all the time. And so, that's our gift to you today.
Thank you for taking the time to chat with us today. There will be links to your book in the show notes. There will be links to the website for people to check out. I highly recommend you go and take that self awareness test. And, I really appreciate you sharing your stories openly, as you did, as well. Because I know it's a personal story. No everyone is always open to that. So, thank you for sharing. Because it's impactful when people know that, you too, have gone through crisis, because we all do at some point.
My pleasure. I'll send you a link, or Alyssa will send you a link, as well, to try. And Celine, if there's anything else we can do for you down the road, just stay in touch. You did a really great job today.
[Celine] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca