In this episode, we are talking about conscious leadership with Executive Coaches, Dale Allen & Trevor Stevenson. Learn how to practice awareness, shift and reframe the narrative, prevent and reduce harm... plus so much more. I hope you'll join us!
Today's guests are Executive Coaches, Dale Allen & Trevor Stevenson, whose passion lies in helping others understand and practice conscious leadership.
Dale says, “People will experience crisis, multiple times in a day, and sometimes it’s because of me, unintentionally... Our hope is that, by having conversations like these, more people would value doing this particular work, understanding that it’s not just, 'I have this title and I’m an expert in X.' But, also, 'I have a social contract with everyone that I meet and lead. AND, I honor that contract, intentionally.'"
In this episode, we also talk about:
- Practicing awareness
- Shifting or reframing the narrative
- The definition of neuroplasticity
- What responsible leadership looks like
- Empathy at work
- Preventing or reducing harm
and more!
I hope you'll join us for a truly fascinating and very important conversation on what it means to be a conscious leader and to care for yourself and your people well.
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Dale Allen and Trevor Stevenson are the Founders of and Executive Coaches at Conscious Lead Life (www.consciouslead.life).
Dale is most passionate about working with inspiring and seriously committed leaders who want to prevent toxic conversations, relationships, workplaces, communities, and homes.
She has a Master’s Degree in Human Kinetics with specializations in Gerontology and Adapted Kinesiology from Lakehead University. She is certified as an Executive Coach, Process Facilitator, and in the Bar-On Method of Emotional Intelligence Testing. She is also a Yoga Instructor/Fitness and Health Coach who loves nourishing food, reggae music and sweet ocean vibes -- there’s, honestly, nothing that brings her more joy than a spontaneous dance party, so don’t even try to fight it!
With a sense of adventure as his guide, Trevor brings 100% of his energy to being in the moment. His unconventional background in long-term world travel, live music, sports, and even farming adds up to his deep respect for people’s experiences.
In his coaching, Trevor makes deep and transformational change fun. His clients might do hard emotional and mental work, but there will never be a session without a laugh. His unique campfire-coach approach to leadership helps his clients reflect in a safe environment and encourages solutions. Trevor shares, from great depth, everything he's learned and is practicing.
You can find them on all social platforms by searching, Conscious Lead Life.
- I am Celine Williams, and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis Podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guests today are Dale Allen and Trevor Stevenson who are a dynamic duo of conscious leadership coaches who work with over busy executives who are trying to not burn out while taking care of their people and still deliver results, as well as new leaders dealing with imposter syndrome. Welcome, Dale and Trevor.
Thank you.
Hello, Celine, thanks for having us.
Absolutely, it's my pleasure. I'm excited to talk to both of you. Besides the fact that I have very much enjoyed our preamble conversation, I'm excited to talk to both of you as well about what you do and what you're up to in the world. But before we jump into that, I always start by asking, the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis, when you hear that phrase, what comes up for you, or what does that mean for you?
You go ahead.
Thank you. I was waiting for you to say that. There is a time where we need to stand up and lead, and it doesn't matter whether we have a title, a leadership title or not. There's something that's happening in our environment that is calling us to take a stand and to hold a posture, I like to say. And because our world, it's just full of ups and downs, it means it can be really volatile at times, but it's natural. It's not just because there are, I don't know, I mean, I'm gonna say things like crises as we know them, maybe when work is really difficult or we've experienced a loss. We're always going through ups and downs in life. That all leads to something even bigger. And I think that if we were to be able to come up with a way or practice a way to be with those ups and downs, and when it is something that seems bigger than our capacity to cope like a loss, a loss of a job, or this sense of imposter syndrome, not feeling like we fit in or something happening in our personal lives, that we would have a way to be through things with more ease and grace. And so, our way is to look at what are the practices we can put in place to prevent things from being this catastrophic experience. And so, that's what leading through crisis means to me.
Nice. When I hear that term crisis, it's such a spectrum for me, I realize, Celine. That could be that I stepped out of bed this morning happy and excited 'cause I've got this big pitch to do, or I'm gonna be meeting this new potential client and step in dog shit at the side of the bed or something, or my child wakes up sick and can't go to school that day and just derails everything that I had assumed was going to flow beautifully all the way over to my business had to lock its doors because there's a pandemic and things like that. And so crises, I think, is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And oftentimes, for me, it's how we perceive a situation as well because someone may be in that exact same situation and not consider it to be a crisis. And then so it's like so much in our life. It's a perspective-based thing. So that's what comes up for me when I listen to and I hear your blogs.
As I'm sure unsurprising, those perspectives are very similar. They're just different language, and I appreciate that because I think that the ups and downs to what you were saying, Dale, they happen no matter what. I mean, that's the saying of like, the only thing that's constant is change is real because those ups and downs are always going to happen. And at the same time, the perspective we have on them is the differentiator. I always think when I hear that idea of this isn't the trauma Olympics where my crisis, my trauma, my situation, whatever is not better, worse, more, or less than anyone else's. It's just mine from my perspective. It's what I'm dealing with. So in my context, in my world, this is a crisis. It may not be a crisis to someone else, and it might be a completely disabling crisis to another person that stops 'em in their tracks. And I think that to what you were touching on, Dale, around how do you manage that in an ongoing way? What does that look like? I'm curious about that because I think so many people struggle with the ups and downs and then the perception of the various crises to even know what do I do? What's my ongoing practice?
It's such an amazing... The way that you express that is so amazing to me because the invitation first is that, can we practice a level of awareness about what is happening? And so to me it's like an awareness first. So, how are we looking? How are we looking for the ways that we are with the ups and downs? I think one of the biggest things that makes life challenging for us is because intellectually we understand. So then things are up and down. We get that, but the way that we are through that, it creates suffering. It doesn't have to. So we know that the pain's gonna be there. We know it's just part of life. We know that, but the way that we suffer through things makes the extension of the pain is like we extend it. And so to me, that's this ongoing practice or what I like to offer are practices where we build the awareness of, okay, here I am in a triggered state in a crisis. And then the reflection process that we go through is an actual way of being able to observe what's happening without reacting to it. And so when you get into that practice of observing without reacting, then you get to really see, what's the impact that this trigger or my reaction is having on me and my perspective? And so we have people when through coaching and also through journaling really go through that process of awareness, awareness of a trigger, observing it to say, okay, wait, what is the impact that my perspective is having? And then, how do I shift, so it's a bit of a reframe, shifting my perspective, so that I can go through this with more ease and grace? And so when you're in a conversation like that as an ongoing practice when you're triggered, it's like, okay, here comes a trigger. I could run from it, but what if you were to face it? So turn toward it figuratively and sometimes really. Turn toward it and say, okay, observing, what am I doing? What's the impact that my perspective is having? And then going into that, okay, what is that creating for me? And then, how do I reframe that to be able to clear that with more ease and grace? So that's like we shrink the suffering time. Pain's there, but we don't have to suffer. So you know how they say that pain is inevitable and suffering is optional? That is actually so, so, so true for me and so true in what I see of the leaders that we work with. But everyone, how can we be with that with ease and grace?
I'm a broken record about this, so I apologize to anyone listening who's heard me say this multiple times, but one of the things that I talk about a lot, and it's that pain and suffering piece, is that our initial feeling, reaction, that thought, we're not in control of that. That's the pain. That is the thing that is happening, and it's just a response. What we do next with it, we are responsible for, and that's where the suffering comes in. That's where you have a choice to... I'm not saying it's an easy choice. It's not always, but that's where you get to choose what to do with it. And people hate hearing that 'cause they're like, I never choose suffering, but the truth is that we do. It just doesn't feel like a choice 'cause we're like, it's just the thing that follows naturally. I like that Trevor's snapping. Feel free to jump in.
Yeah, no, no, no, I think you're on point. You have it covered. That's it. And what we like to look at as well with, Celine, is neuroplasticity and that we can change our thinking related to a situation. And so the reaction that we're having in situations, whether it's a conversation with that family member who we always get triggered by or when we are in traffic, you don't know anything about that in Toronto, I'm sure, but-
No traffic there.
No, never.
Then as we go through that process of observation that Dale was describing and choice as you were describing, we can actually rewire our brains to not be triggered in those same situations just through that process of awareness and choice.
And I recognize that getting into neuroplasticity can be a bigger scientific conversation. That's not necessarily what I'm asking, but can you... I appreciate that we could go there, but I think some people have heard about neuroplasticity, and I think it's becoming more of a topic in leadership in general, but I don't think people necessarily understand it as a concept. Quite often, it's used without any specificity or structure, I'm saying structure, that's not the right word, around what it really means or how it can show up. Could you speak into that a little bit for people listening who might be like, what exactly is neuroplasticity, or I'm not really sure what that... Does that mean that I can rewire anything in my brain in any way? I think there's a lot of questions about it quite often.
Sure, thank you. Yeah, and it's funny because we used to go quite deep into. We had NeuroLeadership programs, brain-based leadership development, and there were some, we worked with scientists or people with science backgrounds, and they were all excited. And then there were others like, meh, I just wanna know how to change. And I think we add a layer of that in the work that we do now just from what we were talking about from that reality that, yes, we can change the way that we feel as Dale was talking about. How long are we gonna suffer for? And if we want that to be shortened, if we want less of that, then we can go back and we go back to the thinking that is creating the emotion 'cause most change happens, most development takes place for people or the attempted development, training, happens above the iceberg part of actions and results. And it's like, oh, I'm getting these results. I don't like them, whether that's my emotional response that our company is failing or whatever that is. I'm having terrible relationships, and there's a terrible culture. And so, we'll try to change. We'll change. We'll do mission, vision, values, and we'll bring everyone together, and we'll do team building event and da da da da da.
So we try to do new actions.
Right, we try to just change the actions, thinking that we're gonna get new results, and it may work. Everyone may say, oh, well I'm a blue and I'm a red and I'm a green. And that's a great weekend or whatever it is that you've done, but we're always going we've got decades of conditioning being a certain way. And all of that conditioning, we were talking about parenting, all of that parenting, the religion that we grew up in, the school environment, social media, our friends, that has all shaped us to be the way that we are, and it's beautiful. And if we want to change that, we need to go to the level deeper, the below the iceberg, which is the thinking and recognizing the emotions and those choices that we were just talking about. So to rewire the brain, so neuroplasticity very simply is just choosing a new thought path. And we see this in bias and equity and all sorts of things all the time. It's like, I don't know why I feel that way around this person. And it's the noticing that allows us that opportunity for change. So Dale was talking about that awareness. If we notice it and we notice our bias and our judgment, which, again, we can't not judge, it's just always on, it's an automatic on switch, and so if we want that to be different, if we want to think differently about how we react when I hit up on a traffic jam, we first have to recognize, oh, I think that I'm going to be late. Oh, I think that I'm an idiot for leaving so late. Oh, I think that these people are idiots for looking at that accident on the other side of the road when it has nothing to do with our side of the road. And so we work ourselves into this state, and if we don't like that state, we don't like the suffering that we create from that once we're aware of it, then we can ask ourselves the question of like, first of all, how do I wanna be feeling? Do I have any control over that? Can I change it? And so some of the things, the answer is yes. And then if we choose powerfully to do it differently and we are in a different situation, but within this situation, in this moment, how can I choose to experience it differently? And that is the neurons firing together on a different path. And so where there's this thick trench of hit traffic, freak out, you have to go to this one that's hit traffic, pause, breathe, think of that fun time I had on the weekend and just be in a be in a different state, and it's actually that simple, yet that challenging because we've got decades of doing it the other way.
And it's also the reminder that when you're just renaming, Trevor, that thick trench, so then when you were saying about what we always have choice and people will always say, well, not always, but at some point, someone might say, we hear this with the leaders that we work with all the time, "I didn't have a choice. "I had to fire them" or, "I had to use this discipline policy." And it's like, no, you actually did choose to use that because the choice of not firing them has a consequence that is less favorable to you, so you actually did choose, and we always do. We don't consciously choose all the time. So even when we're working with execs and they say things, any time that phrase, I didn't have a choice, it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, no. For us, it's really important to notice how that's a default pattern, to give an excuse actually as to why I did something. It's like, no, no, no, let's own it. But the neuroplasticity is a reminder that in every conversation, every single conversation we're making connections or neurons are firing together, but they can be tentative connections. It can just be just a little touch point. And so when Trevor's talking about those deep trenches, it's just to remember that our neural pathways, some of them are very, very ingrained, but as soon as we think differently, just one thought that's different, we make a new connection and a new pathway is formed. But just like a path in the forest, if we go off piece, like we go off the path, then we know that it would take more of us walking that path more often for this new path to get formed with ease. And that's what neuroplasticity is. It's the reminder that we're always making new connections. Our brain is always making these new change connections. To go a new path means that we've got to go through that path over and over and over again until when we are in crisis we go, choice, I could go that deep trench that actually isn't working for me anymore, or I could take this new path. And, yeah, I'm gonna have to work it, but I mean, the gift is that we're doing that all the time. So can change happen? Absolutely. Could we solve problems that seem so complicated? Absolutely. Absolutely, we could.
Yeah. I mean, I could talk about the topic of choice for the next 16 hours. I'm gonna fully own that this is a thing that I have a lot of energy around because like you, I work with leaders and I hear a lot that I didn't have a choice and I had to do this, and this is the way it is. And even if something is dictated down and someone says, "I didn't have a choice," I always say, "Well, you do 'cause you have a choice of how you accept it "or how you show up inside of it "or all of that is still a choice." So it may not feel like it, but there's always choice. You can choose to walk away from this role. You can choose to do something... It may not be choice that you like, quote unquote, but there there is choice. And I think it is that, you touched on this, I think it was Dale who touched on it, this idea of what you can and can't control and recognizing that when we have control, which is often an illusion anyways, but let's just pretend it isn't, when we have control, we feel like we can then control the choices more, and we're more likely quite often to acknowledge the choice that we have. And when we don't have control, that's when we're like, well, no responsibility, it's not a choice. It just is what it is. And that's not true, and it's this false delineation that we, again, have these neural pathways that we've really just leaned in on in those two ways that they're not the only possibilities.
Mhm. It's so interesting to hear you express that too 'cause what's coming up for me too, Celine and Trevor, is that I see that a lot of depression burnout, stress is because we're not aware that we are making choices. So that's what Trevor's saying it's why we look at what's the thought reaction that you're having and the emotional reaction to what is happening like to the crisis, to the conflict, to whatever it is that you're experiencing, or if you're like us where we're more about prevention, we know that conflict crisis will happen. It's a function of being human and function of coming together as a team unless you're working completely on your own and you're talking to absolutely no one. So this is what it is to be a alive. So we are like, how do we prevent toxicity like these poisonous moments from taking over and creating greater stress responses, so that we don't feel satisfied and we don't trust ourselves and each other and so we don't do great work together? So when I was listening to you, it was a reminder of why we are so interested in this prevention work is because if we acknowledge that we are gonna have those ups and downs and then we were to say, oh, what if more leaders said, I know it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen for me, it's gonna happen for my team. And so we want to practice things now, put things in place now for how we will respond now. We don't wait 'til afterwards. We don't wait 'til crisis for that to happen. We know it's part of what life is, part of the path. And then we also practice what choice actually is because what we usually do, like you were saying, so just reiterate, is that when I think that I don't have a choice, the frame that I'm looking through is I don't have choice, which also means I don't have control. And when I think I don't have control, then there is absolutely nothing I can do. So there's something about no responsibility, but there's actually this felt sense that there's absolutely nothing. Like I am helpless. And when I believe that I'm helpless, then I don't become resourceful. And so we look at how can we help you see that you are resourceful and and go get access to those resources within you that you have to be with the choice right now. And so being aware of what I'm choosing and powerfully choosing even when, as you say, don't like it, is so key to not be into a pattern of burnout, into a pattern of imposter syndrome, into a pattern of self-doubt and and harm actually for myself and between others. It is so powerful.
I am curious. So you just mentioned it, and it's coming up for me as I'm gonna say curious again 'cause it's just a curiosity. I don't know what it is, and I know it's a key elements of what you do, but the burnout and imposter syndrome, and I'm curious, based on the work that you've done, what you specialize in, I'm gonna guess yes, but I'm gonna ask this, are there links and overlap there? How do they play together? It seems like I think we often talk about burnout and imposter syndrome, and they're two, can't see my hands if you're... But they're two different, very different things. Terrible word, but they're two very different things. And you speak about them, I'm not saying together as in they're the same thing, but the same resources, the same kind of intentionality around them. And so I'm curious what that overlap is. If there's overlap, please feel free to be like, there's no overlap. You're way off base. This is why we don't. It's totally fine. I just think it's really interesting 'cause I think oftentimes people are like, they're not the same thing. Burnout is this. Imposter syndrome is this. What's happening?
Yeah, well, I mean I think one absolutely leads to the other. I think if we're living with a sense of imposter syndrome, then we're just carrying so much emotional baggage on top of everything else on top of the workload and the kids and the home ownership and ailing parents or whatever it is that we're dealing with. To have an experience of imposter syndrome on a recurring basis, that's a syndrome that we have these thoughts that are just clouding everything else for us. We have these thoughts that distance us from others, that we have these thoughts that then I have to overcome or what's the word I'm looking for, like pretend, again, not a great word, but that I'm all that, that I've got it all figured out. And so people feel that. We're just such energetic beings. And so when I'm trying to show up that way as a leader, it can often repel others because it's a forceful energy when in my head I'm full of self-doubt and guilt and shame and all of these things. And so, it's a toxic mix. And then you're just adding that to all of the rest that I was just describing that goes on in my life, and then I'm feeling in this way that I just can't handle it anymore. I can't do it. I'm sick with myself for showing up in that way because I think I'm not worthy. And if I don't have a way out, if I don't have a practice on how to fix that for myself, then we're leading towards a very toxic internal environment while also creating one externally, and that is where burnout happens. Burnout, I mean, it can be a physical thing, but it's very much a mental ailment. Like burnout at the end of doing some reps at the gym, that's a good thing. What's it called that, working to
Exhaustion.
Exhaustion. That's when you're working out that you wanna do for your muscles. When you're working with your brain, with others around you, that's not where you want to get to. And so many of us do so often, and imposter syndrome only just compounds the effects of that.
Thank you for sharing that. The language of toxicity came up a few times in what you're saying, and, Dale, in some of what you were saying earlier as well, that idea of toxicity and whether it's internal. And I would bet that in many cases it starts internally, although it does not end internally. I like that you're both nodding. You're like, yes, that is.
Yep, yep.
That's often the way it is. But I'm curious. I think there's a lot of people who... Man, I think of some of the leaders I've worked with who would be like, "I don't have imposter syndrome." They would never think I have impostor... Whether they do or not, not the point. They would not ever say or think, I suffer from imposter syndrome in any way, shape, or form. And therefore, they might hear this and go, well, I don't have those toxic thoughts, so I'm not creating toxicity for myself or those around me. This doesn't apply, which that's a whole other conversation, but I'm curious for those who might be thinking that or questioning, how can they recognize or identify toxicity for themselves, whether it's internally or that they're creating? 'Cause I think we're really good at saying that person over there who is not me is toxic in these ways and they are creating a toxic work environment in these ways. And we're not so good at going, what am I doing inside of this? Where's my toxicity? And I think even if it's questions they could ask themselves, but do you have any, I don't know, a, a process, a question, anything for people who might be going, well, that's them not me? 'Cause I think that's real.
Yeah, it's so real.
Totally.
Yeah, so you're naming both where there is the one who's not aware, and there was the one who is curious as, am I contributing to that? For both, it's the same though. When we're working with people who have been invited to work with us, which is like let's say a boss says, I'm wanting to work with this person, or a partner says, I want you to work with this person because they've found the relationship just functional, when we're working with someone who has decided to come anyway, even if they were forced to, but have decided to come, our way is about not being judgmental. What we often ask is, what challenge are you experiencing like what trigger, what challenge are you experiencing that is calling your attention? Like it's just saying, I gotta look at this right now, even if it has to do with someone else. So even if they're used to using a blame kind of way, we always go back to, so when they do that, whatever it is you say, what shows up in you? What does it create in you? Because that's where we see that we actually are always in, what's the word, the mercy of other people's reactions. And really, it's us reacting to other people. So even when I am... Let me just close there before I move on, but that is such a key place to be because it actually neutralizes things. It's that yes, you've named it as someone outside of you, so someone external or you reacting to something that someone else has done or that our organization is done. I can't believe they're going in this direction. I can't believe they merged with so-and-so. So whenever we go to that, it's blaming someone outside of me. We always go back to, okay, so when that happens, how does it show up in you? How do you think, how do you act, and how do you relate to that person in the moment? And that always changes things, but it's a constant thing because we are so used to, we call it, the language of fear. We're so used to that blaming language. And so we continue with that. So it goes back to you. How does that impact you? And then, how does it show up? How does it show up in how you relate to that? Usually what happens is you start to realize that I'm actually judging you for judging me. You're reacting. So if I think you're toxic, I'm also reacting, also judging you as toxic. And so we look at, how do we want to relate, so we don't enable, we don't keep it alive? And so that was just the next thing I was going to say is we look at how to bust patterns. So if someone out there is like... If I am acknowledging, noticing that, yeah, I notice that this person is really toxic, this boss is really toxic, and every time we have a meeting they do this thing, and so we help them look at, with the patterns that exist, how are you acting? What are you thinking? What are you saying, so speaking, and how are you relating? How are you acting with them when they do that? What patterns are we keeping alive to keep this toxicity going on? 'cause that means we are contributing to it as well. So that's how we address both the person who has the curiosity, am I toxic, and also the person who might not have the awareness, but somehow ends up being in our world where it isn't about blaming. It's actually about coming back to you and saying, so how's that showing up? What are you doing in that time? And then those conversations then become so rich because you start to see what needs are not being met for the person who is seemingly unaware, and the conversation becomes about them and their reaction as opposed to continuing to have the conversation expand around the other people.
Yeah.
Actually, there is a little bit-
Well, I think, it is for me, and there was something that I think is a super simple gateway to getting to that point is noticing the emotions, 'cause we're just having thousands and thousands of them all day long. And if I'm having an emotion about something that doesn't feel good, then it's starting to create that awareness of, okay, what was it that was triggering to me? And how am I communicating to change that situation?. So if the thought is, like Dale was saying, that I don't like the way that they're talking to me or I have this sense of I'm gonna go into the boardroom and it's gonna be this power struggle, or I don't like the way that person is performing, there's an emotion attached to that, and those things are often so subtle, or they're just our modus operandi. I just show up at work, and I've got this tension and there's always so much to get done. It might just my status quo of how I'm feeling. I'm tense at work or I'm frustrated, or just it might be micro moments where I'm in a conflict within me. So just recognize those and ask ourselves, am I creating a change too in this situation? Am I doing what needs to do to change it, so it doesn't keep happening, or if it's an isolated situation, do I know how to deal with it? So am I communicating in a way that's making it better, making me feel better? And then if I'm feeling better, that's usually, like we were saying about the toxic environments, it starts within.
But it's also the acknowledgement that if I'm feeling better and someone else is feeling worse, then we actually know that it is us then because it's like, do we actually... It should have an impact, a positive impact on my health, as well as the health of other people around me. It's self-awareness and other awareness, and we tie those two together 'cause we need to see it.
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for walking through that. I think it's really powerful, and I think it will be really impactful for people listening who are asking that question or stepping out of it saying, that's not a me thing. It's a way to actually check to see if it is a you thing, so not just assuming it isn't. So I appreciate that. So first of all, I could talk to you for hours, and sadly this is not a seven hour long podcast, so I'm gonna ask the question, if only, before we wrap, is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanted to make sure we talked about or something that you wanted to emphasize before we wrap?
There was something for me that was coming up earlier, Celine, that was about when we talk about leading through crisis. So we have our own, as we've been talking about, whether that's the traffic or the sick kid all of a sudden at home or I don't have enough time for the amount of work that there is, or my business is shut down 'cause of the pandemic. I think there's such a big empathy piece in leadership as well. We've been talking about the self-empathy is self-awareness first, which a lot of people say, no, I'm really self-aware. And we say that that's great. Well, what are you doing with that information? Because there's self-empathy, and I'm mad, I'm gonna kick the dog, I'm gonna yell at my staff, but self-empathy is what we were just talking about. Oh, I recognize I'm mad. What am I going to do to change that within myself? And I think because we operate by this premise of we are all leaders, our kids are leaders, everyone in our building is a leader because they have an impact and that impact matters. I hope it matters. And so recognizing that everyone has their own crisis going at any moment. And so as leaders to be aware enough of that to give a shit and recognize what's going on for others, once we start healing ourselves and reducing our own toxicity, it's to really have that level of empathy for others and start to understand what their crisis of the moment is or long moment.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thanks for asking.
Do you wanna add anything, Dale? The answer could be no.
I do.
No pressure.
It's that we work with leaders and we call them conscious leaders because they have an ache to actually prevent harm in their organization's, families, their relationships, and at work, and personally. And I know hope is not a strategy, but I do have this hope, and probably a wish that more people actually valued doing the work, and this particular work, so that it's not just, well, I've got this title and I'm a subject matter expert in whatever business I'm in, but that I also have a social contract with everyone that I meet and everyone that I lead and that I would honor that contract to say there's additional work that I need to do consciously and intentionally with folks like all of us where it's that we keep that practice alive. And the same way we would train ourselves up on the subject matters that we're leading on, that we do the work that, wow, I'm actually responsible for folks, for actual people, and that we would intentionally do the work there. Because this often happens in a bystander role where it's like, yeah, oh, okay, I have to do something now. So my hope is that in listening to this podcast and all of your that it creates that ache more often, Celine, where it's like, oh, right, I've actually gotta do this work. Like this has gotta be a line item the way I would put in we've gotta get stuff for, I don't know, like anything else I was gonna say for the bathroom at work, but like the same way that it would be a line item and not a nice to do, but it's like, oh, right, I'm responsible for people and the subject matter. How am I making sure that because everyone will go through crises at a certain time and multiple times in their day that I won't even know? And sometimes it will be because of me unintentionally. Sometimes it's because of me intentionally. And so that we actually have an ache to create an environment that is in the practice continuously of reducing harm because we know crisis will happen.
That is the perfect place to end this. Thank you very much. I think that is... I don't think there's a better way to wrap everything up. For everyone listening, all the links to find Dale and Trevor will be in the show notes, but very quickly, your website, the best way to find you is?
consciouslead.life.
consciouslead.life. Thank you both for taking the time to chat with me today. It was truly a gift and I appreciate it very very much.
Thank you, Celine. It's so great to be with you.
Yeah, and for all you do. Listened to lots of the other stuff and just appreciate all that you're bringing.
It's a gift you're bringing to the world here.
Thank you. Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.