In this episode, we are talking to the President and Founder of Talent Boost, Claire Chandler, about sustainable growth, as well as the importance of creating and communicating a clear and compelling purpose.
“Modern-day leaders are facing a challenge we didn’t see in decades past, which is that we no longer have C-suites who spend 5+ years at a particular company.”
Because tenure is short, they are under immense pressure to make an impact, make a name for themselves, and leave the company in as good (if not better condition) as when they started.
It’s the perfect storm that can – and often does – lead to being reactive and projecting a message/creating a culture that doesn’t align with their intention or feelings.
In this episode, we explore:
A leader’s duty
Why sustainability can be hard to execute on
What we can learn from hospitals and the military
Which aspects of purpose change the game
A powerful challenge, that applies to everyone
I had a great time speaking with Claire and she will definitely return to the show. But, in the meantime, I hope you’ll listen to this episode and grab a few tips that will help you create purpose and sustainable growth, for yourself and/or your company.
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President and Founder of Talent Boost, Claire Chandler specializes in aligning HR and business leaders so they can deliver strategic outcomes... both today and in the future. She taps into 25+ years of experience in people leadership, human resources, and business ownership to help leadership teams work together more effectively in less time, with less cultural resistance, so they can accelerate their business growth.
She has broad-based expertise in management team due diligence, organizational design, acquisition integration and onboarding strategic planning, executive coaching, and performance acceleration. Claire gets results because she’s insanely easy to work with, cuts through the corporate clutter, and has a simple, proven approach for assessing and accelerating organizations’ growth readiness.
Claire holds a certificate in strategic HR leadership from Cornell’s School of Industrial and Labor Relations, a master’s degree from the New Jersey Institute of Technology, and a bachelor’s degree from Fairfield University. She has appeared as a guest on over 100 podcasts and is the author of several books on leadership and business strategy.
You can learn more about her work at https://www.clairechandler.net/, on LinkedIn @clairechandlersphr, on Twitter @claire_talent, and on Facebook @talentboostllc.
- I am Céline Williams, and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series, exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is executive leadership advisor, Claire Chandler, who specializes in aligning HR and business leaders so they can deliver strategic outcomes both today and in the future. She taps into over 25 years of experience in people leadership, human resources, and business ownership to help leadership teams work together more effectively, also efficiently, but I'm gonna say both words, effectively in less time with less cultural resistance so they can accelerate their business growth. Welcome, Claire.
Thanks, Céline. It's so great to be here.
I'm very excited to talk to you because we were already getting into some stuff before we hit record. So as we get into this, I'm gonna start with what I always start with, which is the name of the podcast is "Leading Through Crisis," when you hear leading through crisis, what comes up for you?
Well, for me, I mean, first of all, crisis is constant, right? We were talking right before you hit the big shiny record button about the fact that, you know, we are constantly in tumult and in change and in transformation. And I think for leaders, they have, we have, I think we're all leaders, we have an obligation to be the calm amidst the storm, to demonstrate consistency, you know, so that people can feel a sense of, not just purpose, but orientation through the clouds and through the bumps and through the confusion and through the stress. So I think for leaders, you know, that the whole notion of leading through crisis, you know, triggers for me the sort of duty that leaders have to be a bit of the beacon and to help lead their people, their teams, their business, you know, through that storm and, you know, through sort of a sustainable journey.
So. Yes, I agree with all of that. Yep, and what you just ended on, which is part of what we were talking about before, is this idea of crisis is constant because change is constant. So any change can be a crisis. Like, for me, that's a baseline. But the idea of sustainability, when we have change happening, and accepting that we have to find a way to balance this out, I think, is a really challenging concept for people in general, leaders definitely and businesses for sure, because they end up being so incapable of or resistant to seeing sustainability when they're constantly seeing change in crisis. And I'm curious how, what do you do with that? How do you help them? Like what do you do with that, Claire?
Yeah, it's so interesting, and, you know, the answer is never easy, right? Like the concept can be quite simple, but actually executing on the concept is never easy. You had used a word right before we started recording, reactive.
Mm-hmm.
And I think especially leaders, and again, like I said, leaders have an obligation to emit calm, to establish consistency, to give their people, you know, a visible roadmap that navigates through the constant change. But I think for leaders, the temptation to be reactive is so great. You know, you talked about some of the leaders, the organizations you work with, and it's kind of surprising we haven't crossed paths before because I kind of work in a lot of the same spaces that you do. And so when you talk to executive leaders, you talk to senior leaders, there is so much change going on around them, right? And the higher up in the organization, the more they have a responsibility to see those changes coming as far down the road as they possibly can so that they can make course corrections, not, you know, sudden changes. And I think for too many of them, they're not quite sure how to strike that balance, right? So they might see some changes coming around the bend, and rather than absorbing those, digesting them, filtering them through their lens of, what is our purpose, what is our longer term strategy, they get into this sort of reflexive mode, which is human nature, to react. And so I think the biggest struggle first that we have to continue to help leaders with is how not to get into a reactive mode, is how to stay true and committed to the journey that they want to be on, that they firmly believe is the right road for their company and their team and themselves, and stay committed to that and help them not to be reactive. Yes, be responsive, right, to changes that are coming. But there's a huge difference between responding to change and reacting to change. And to me, it that all centers around control.
Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, yeah, yes. And something that came, so there's two things that came up for me inside of that. I'm gonna say them. You can play with either, both, whatever. The first thing that came up for me was, as you said that I thought, some of the reaction that I have seen that I'm sure you have seen that happens with executives and leaders and teams and all of that, I wonder how much of that comes from the fact that they actually aren't as convinced or sure of the path or purpose or journey that they are on, which is why when something happens, they react, and they don't respond because, and this could be imposter syndrome, this could be coming from a number of different places. I'm not saying it's one or the other, but then they start to really question like, "Well, maybe this isn't right, and maybe this isn't the long term," and they haven't, you know, they don't even, I think some of them can't even necessarily verbalize that or aren't really clear on some of those aspects. But that's there. And that to me is a very specific kind of path to go down with them. And, you were nodding, so I'm actually gonna pause there And let you say something.
Yeah, like I'm afraid of what the second option is because like I have this visceral response to what you just said, and I think you are 100% correct. I think that leaders, and let's just talk about the executive leaders for a second. They do get knocked off of their path, I think, quite easily because of the scope and the magnitude of change, right? And here's part of, I think, what is challenging to the modern day executive leader that we didn't see in decades past, which is no longer do you have a CEO, COO or even a chief HR officer who spend more than five years in a company, right? We are living in an era where the CEO in particular, but even the COO and others in the C-suite, CFO, et cetera, are only around for a short amount of time. And most often, at least, I've seen, the strategies that they have put in place that they are trying to guide their people and their business toward, should outlive them, right? Should outlive their tenure in the organization. And we can go down the rabbit hole of, you know, the Jim Collins work on goods to great, what, you know, what's the legacy you wanna leave behind? But the reality is, because that tenure is so finite for the modern day executive leader, they are under immense pressure from their stakeholders, from the board, from the community, from the press, you know, depending on the industry, and also from themselves to make an impact quickly, to make a name for themselves and to leave the company in at least as good, if not better, condition than when they started. So you add that to the pace of change and this sort of crisis model that we are all living in right now, it is sort of that perfect storm, right? Because those leaders are not, they don't wanna keep changing course every day or every week or every quarter, but sometimes they feel so reactive because there is this sense of urgency to them making an impact through their business, right? So I think that's very, very real. You know, and coming back to your point about purpose, I could not agree with you more that when the going gets tough, one of the first reflexive actions of executive leaders is to say, "Well, maybe our purpose wasn't good enough, wasn't clear enough, wasn't aspirational enough, wasn't right." And that's when that imposter syndrome definitely sets in. And I think below the executive leadership level, from the senior leaders on down to your individual contributors, they're watching what you do. They're watching how you react. They're watching how you respond. They're watching how you lead. They're watching how you communicate. How transparent is it? How authentic is it? And if you get shaky in your connection to your purpose, to the mission of the company, to the horizon you're all striving to reach, it's going to infect the people around you, just like if you have a solid commitment to that purpose, day in and day out, regardless of the changes that come, your people are gonna see that as well. So it's hard being an executive leader, being an executive leader. There is so much pressure, there's so much urgency, and there's so much spotlight. It's a difficult role. It really is.
Yeah, yeah. Yes, I say quite often that I don't envy some of the things, a lot of the things they have to deal with in their day-to-day roles. And I think your point is, I love the way that you kind of put it together that there is a limited, this is not your words, but there's a limited timeframe, right? Like they're in place for, by the way, this is something that I complain about all the time with politics. Everyone is making a plan for the next four years, and no one is actually thinking what does that mean for four years after that, or 10 years after that? Because they know in an executive's case, in a politician's case, four or five, six years, there's gonna be someone new who's gonna change it in some way to make it their legacy, which is part of the problem with, you know, why so many things are not businesses, whatever you wanna call them in around politics, they're not sustainable. They're not designed to be sustainable beyond whatever that approximate end date is. And that's a really challenging mentality and reality to deal with when you're talking about, or I think it is, please disagree with me, I'm not, but I think it's a really challenging mentality to be dealing with when you're thinking of sustainability and sustainable growth in business. Because that, you know, if your bucket is four years out, everything's changing, or I'm changing, I'm not gonna be here. I don't care what happens after that. I just need it to be at this point at that point in time, that's not any really solid foundation for someone to continue to build on because it has an end date. Does that make sense?
It makes total sense. And I think that is seldom the intention of the executive leader with the four or five year tenure to come in and say, "I don't care what happens afterwards." But the problem is that's the message they often project. Yes.
Right?
Yeah. So it's not how they really feel.
Agreed.
But there's this disconnect between what they truly believe and what they want for the company and what they project through their message, their transparency or lack thereof, right? So, yeah, I mean, I think all of that, it does come back to purpose and the strength of that purpose. It has to outlive the leader at the top. The purpose has to, and I have always said this. You know, I do a lot of work around purpose. I do a lot of work around culture. Your culture, your purpose, your mission have to be bigger than just whoever is in the CEO's chair or the executive wing for any snapshot in the company's evolution, right? It has to be genuine. It has to be authentic, and it has to be something that the broader employee population can see a visible connection to, can actually relate to, right? How often do you see companies, and I know you said you work with a lot of Fortune 500 companies. How often do you see companies advertise for a certain type of employee? You know, the one glaring example that I always use is, how many times have you seen a company advertise for people who have an entrepreneurial spirit, and they bring them on board, and then as soon as that person demonstrates their entrepreneurial spirit, and they sort of color outside the lines, the company goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Like that's not how we do things here." And so if your culture and what it promises and your purpose and your mission and what they promise outwardly attract people, but then the delivery of that culture, the delivery of that promise is incongruous with what you said it was, people are gonna notice, that the best people who could have gotten you closer to that purpose are gonna leave, and you're gonna be left with, at best, people who are just there going through the motions, and at worst, you're going to be left with a toxic culture. So it is extremely important, not just to get that purpose right, but to stay true to that for however long you happen to be in a leadership role, and be committed to that and be consistent in terms of the messages that you send, the behavior that you reinforce, the performance that you reward, right? The people that you advance, it has to all be consistent and true and authentic. Because the minute that it isn't, people are going to believe what you do, not what you say.
Yes, I love that. I do a lot of work in culture as well, and one of the things that I see all the time is that organizations get focused on the idea of culture. It's like, you know, it can be a buzzword. You and I obviously don't think it is. We could have a whole other conversation about that for sure. But people can think, there are leaders in organizations who it's a buzzword, and it's a thing to do 'cause that's what people say they should do. And so they get into this idea of an aspirational culture that is not the actual lived experience of anyone in that organization. And it is one of the things to me that will so quickly undermine anything else when you say you have this aspirational culture, even from the get-go where people are like, "I don't know who's living that world. That's not really been my experience." But then the lived experience continues to not be that. And you accept behavior, whatever, you know, that lowest, the worst behavior you accept, that is the baseline of your culture right there. So if you're not, if that's not what you want, then you have to change what you accept inside of the culture. And it's so fascinating to me how, the difference between organizations and leaders that genuinely get that and want that and put time into it, and they'll admit the mistakes that come with it 'cause it's not perfect, and people change, but will actually put some time and effort into it versus, you know, the, "We're gonna say all these things, and this is what we want it to be, and hopefully it just turns out this way, and nobody will notice if it's not the truth."
I could not agree with you more. And I think the biggest way that you can tell, as you said, between leaders who get it and understand how foundational and how mission critical the right culture is to your business and those who don't, I think, traditionally we sort of looked at most leaders higher up in an organization as empire builders, right? They want to continue to ascend. They wanna build a huge team around them. They wanna, you know, they want to make an impact, but they also want to be compensated handsomely for it. I truly believe, and it's kind of part of my mission is to find and to nurture and to help succeed leaders who don't necessarily wanna be empire builders, but who want to be culture builders. And to your point, not all leaders get that. Not all leaders truly understand that culture is foundational to your success or your failure. And a lot of leaders still don't understand, the biggest impact on a company's culture is the behavior of the leaders.
Absolutely.
A lot of leaders just say, "Well, culture just sort of bubbles up organically from the employees, and it's almost crowdsourced." And actually the reverse is true. Leaders shape culture. Leaders impact culture. You just said it a minute ago. Leaders are the ones who set the example for what behavior gets rewarded, what gets replicated. You wanna reward and recognize the behavior you wanna see repeated. Well, if in the executive wing, there are a bunch of people who say, "Do as I say, you know, not as I do," that's what you're going to attract. That's what's going to get emulated, right? Because they're seeing it played out. That's what gets rewarded. That's what gets advanced. That's what gets to go into the, you know, the executive conference room and the fancy chair and the big expensive car. If that's the company you want, you know, that's great, and no judgment here, but, you know, you are what you attract, and you're going to attract that kind of a culture. And if that's the culture you wanna build, then good luck to you. But it sounds like you and I don't wanna work with those types of leaders.
Absolutely. Well, I say this all time about very traditionally hierarchical organizations. There's a time and place for that. They have been successful in the past. I get, for example, in the military or a lot of hospitals, that that type of hierarchy is going to continue to be there for a number of reasons, i.e. the person at the top, when they make a decision, they have their responsibility, people could literally die, I get that. You know what? Cool. I don't wanna work with organizations like that personally. There's no judgment, but I can appreciate that that works for some types of organizations and some types of people and some types of leaders. But, I think this is kind of the joy of, one, the work that we do and the choices that are out there when it comes to businesses, there are now multiple ways of surviving and succeeding and growing that are beyond just that way, which is, quote, "The way it was done for so many years."
Right. And that's kind of the joy of this in a conversation like this is, there's not just one way anymore. And I feel like you and I happen to align with like, we wanna work with organizations that care about people and encourage that kind of color, color? Culture and , you know, live what they say they are living and admit mistakes and admit failures and are authentic and transparent and actually show up as people.
Yep. You know, and it's interesting 'cause you mentioned military as an example of being super hierarchical and kind of, you know, know just don't question the leaders, just, you know, kind of follow through, and there is that, and, you know, trying to translate that into an organization is difficult now because people don't want that. However, there is a big piece of the military or the veteran experience that I think organizations do need to emulate, which is a commitment to mission, right? So forget the hierarchy, forget the don't question orders, just carry out blindly, you know, that doesn't translate effectively to the modern organization, but they would do well to emulate this commitment to mission and having a mission and a purpose that is so unquestionable that people will put their lives on the line, right? Metaphorically speaking in an organization, to help fulfill that purpose. And yeah, I mean, I know we've said it a couple of times, but I absolutely think, not only is culture foundational, but if you don't have a purpose that has been well thought out, that is super, super clear so that the leaders from the top of the organization on down can communicate it effectively and consistently, and if you don't commit to that, if you don't show your people a tangible connection between what they do in their individual roles and why that matters, right? How that contributes to this shared mission, you're really missing out. And I think, you know, the other thing, I think it's incumbent upon consultants like you and I to help companies understand the connection between a strong culture, a clear purpose, and a successful sustainable company. Because there is a much stronger connection between a fit culture and sustainable growth and success than there is between a toxic culture and sustainable growth and success. You have a toxic culture, and you just let that form, and you don't do anything about it, your company's gonna go under ultimately, and I can promise you that.
Or, yes. Or they won't. Because what they'll do is they'll have a strategy that allows them to acquire other companies and indoctrinate them into the toxic culture, and then that become, that's not, by the way, at a certain point, I hate to, this is not a popular opinion, at a certain point, that's stops being sustainable, but it will seemingly be sustainable for 10 or 15 years as the like, "We're just gonna keep acquiring, and then we don't have to deal with the talk toxic culture." But there's a point where it's like, "Oh, there's no more companies to acquire," or people are now so aware of it that they're just unwilling to take that money.
Right.
And I think, and I call that out because there are definitely companies out there who are doing that, and, you know, people will look at those companies and go, "Well look at that. They're managing to continue to grow." Ah, that's sustainable for only so long.
Right. And, you know, you alluded to this earlier, and I think we should come back to it, is this sort of shortsighted view of business strategy, right?
Yeah.
Because again, if the leaders at the top have a very finite tenure, and they know that the strategy is going to outlive their tenure, are they truly invested in building the right strategy and attracting the right people and defining the right behaviors and the right values and the right sort of milestones a along the way? You know, again, it is sometimes hard to argue against a leader who says, "Well, listen, you know, I'm here for, you know, a three-year stint, and you want me to build a five-year strategy, and I can do the best I can to put all the pieces in motion, but, you know, it will only be after I leave if we know that that was successful, and it's hard for me to sort of, you know, get the energy behind it every single day when there is all this change and all this crisis and all this, you know, all this other stuff." It's hard not to be sympathetic with the plight of the CEO regardless of the size of their compensation package.
Yeah.
Right?
Yep.
And you said it before, and I completely agree. I don't envy them. I don't wanna be a CEO. There's a reason I do what I do. I come in to help leaders like that to be successful in a more authentic purpose-driven way, but I don't want their seat.
Yeah. So. I'm really curious about, So I'm gonna go back to the military and purpose for a second and bring it back to what we were just talking about. So bear with me. When you were talking about one of the things to learn from, like a military environment, also hospital environment would be the same, is that there is a real clear purpose that everyone knows and understands, and they know what they're there for, and it is a long-term purpose, right? It is a long-term. This is not a three year, five year, whoever the head of whatever is. It is long term. And I think that, and I'm curious, this is actually not I think that. I am curious how that translates or how organizations who say aren't saving lives or aren't protecting a country or aren't something that is like that clear, how they can learn from that and apply that to the purpose in their organization and how they talk about it. And I get this is your perspective, but because I do think that, I think that there are, I think that's a gap for a lot of leaders and executives is when you were talking about like, "I'm here for three years. How do I get committed to this five years?" That's one of the things that came up for me is like, "Ooh, how do you take that? Or how can they take that? Or what has your experience been with that?" Because I do think it's an important thing to get clear on, and it's a challenging thing if it's not as obvious as like, "Hey, we're gonna save lives at the hospital. That's our purpose." That's easy to get behind.
Right, right. Well, and like we said earlier, right? It's sort of, there are some simple concepts, but they're not necessarily easy to execute. I think for, you know, the overwhelming majority of industries that I work within are not life or death industries. And to your point, it's really easy to get behind a mission of saving lives or, you know, helping people, et cetera. But for all the rest of you out there who are not in an industry where, you know, you're either a brain surgeon or, you know, a military general, I think the key is still understanding that whatever time you have in a role in a company, in an industry, regardless of what level in the organization you are, make it as meaningful as possible for you, right? And that's really a message to anybody, whether you're, you know, a leader of others, a leader of a business, a leader of self, right? Is to really understand that life is pretty short. You know, and too often, I think employees just, there's so many jokes about, "Well, if we were supposed to enjoy our job, they wouldn't call it work," right? And so, yeah, like the eye-roll, right? Like, yeah, it drives me crazy too. And it's like, it doesn't have to be that way.
No.
And, you know, to me, you can find meaning and purpose and impact in any role, in any company, in any industry. Was in interesting, I was working with a group of leaders last week, and one of them reminded me of the story of when President John F. Kennedy visited NASA, shortly after he sort of made, you know, that mission statement to say, "We will land a person on the moon by the end of the decade." And he went to visit NASA, and as he's walking around, he passes by a janitor, and he said to him, "What is the purpose of your job?" And the janitor said, "I'm helping put a man on the moon." The janitor understood that if he doesn't do his job, people could slip on the floor. There could be germs in the building that require people, you know, to take time off of work because they get sick. And the more people who are absent, the less likely you're gonna hit your milestones to getting to the moon. Like, and I know that is an extreme example, but it was so poignant for me and reminded me of what purpose is all about. You don't have to have the corner office. You don't have to be the CEO with a 20-year committed tenure. You can be the boots on the ground person. If you see a meaningful tangible connection between what you do and why that matters, not just to the company, but to you, that's a successful career, I don't care who you are. So, you know, I charge everybody that I meet with trying to find more meaning in what they do because it does matter. And so, you know, you have it within you to make an impact and to understand that connection. And if you don't know the connection between your role and the shared mission, go ask somebody and have them help you find it.
Yeah. Yeah, and I think that, so I actually feel like I could talk to you for the next three hours about a variety of things. And I also think that that is a great place to wrap where you're challenging people to say, go find that purpose. Go have that conversation if you're not clear on it. If you're an executive, and you feel like your purpose is clear, but it might not be clear for the rest of your team, if you're someone who is questioning, I think that that's a really good call to action for people to have. And I say that as my opinion 'cause I'm like, "Ooh, I want to have many more conversations with you." But I think that's a really powerful call to action at the end, and I also wanna give you the chances, is there something that you wanted to emphasize or you didn't get to as part of this conversation that you do wanna make sure we get to before we wrap? Because I'm just using my, like, I love that as like.
Yeah.
Not necessarily to add new things onto it from my perspective, but that's only my perspective.
Yeah. No, I love that. I agree, It's a great way to end. The only thing I would add is just to amplify that. So just like we said, if you don't see the connection between your role and why it matters, go ask somebody. Go ask the CEO of your company why he or she does what they do.
Love that.
Because we sit back, right? Because we sit back, and a lot of people just go, "Well I know why they're here 'cause they're making bank. They're making a cushy salary. Look at their car," right? But I would be willing to bet, if you ask the CEO, the COO, anybody in the executive wing, why they are there and what makes them come to work every day, it is not to collect a paycheck. So, you know, when you ask somebody at the very top of an organization to share their why, it might pleasantly surprise you, and a lot of times it's gonna inspire you. So go ask.
You're awesome, Claire. I hope you-
Well, you're pretty awesome. You and your cats are very welcome.
Thank you. I hope you come back. I'd love to have you back 'cause I'm not kidding when I say, I was like, I feel like we could have 14 different conversations inside of this, so I would love to have you back.
Let's do it.
But for those who are listening or watching, there will be links in the show notes, but you can find Claire at clairechandler.net, and you can connect with her on LinkedIn and Instagram, and those will be in the show notes 'cause that's where it makes the most sense to put them. Thank you, Claire. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today.
Thank you, it's been an absolute pleasure. Let's definitely do it again.
[Céline] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.