In this episode, Céline Williams speaks with Charles Vogl, author of The Art of Community, to challenge conventional thinking about connection, community-building, and resilience. They explore why most team-building fails, how real community is built through meaningful “campfire” experiences, and why resilience depends on relationships, not individual effort.
In this episode of Leading Through Crisis, Céline Williams sits down with Charles Vogl—leadership advisor, speaker, and author of The Art of Community—to challenge what we think we know about connection, adaptability, and resilience.
Together, they explore:
- Why most “team building” and networking fails
- The difference between connection vs. proximity
- How leaders can create real community (not just groups)
- Why resilience is NOT an individual skill
- The hidden mental health and loneliness crisis impacting organizations
- The concept of “campfire experiences” and how they transform teams
- Why phones, distractions, and forced fun are quietly destroying connection
Charles shares powerful insights from his work with organizations like Airbnb, Google, and the U.S. Army, revealing why strong relationships, not individual performance, are the foundation of leadership in high-stakes environments.
They also debunk some common assumptions and biases around connection events, like:
- People need to be entertained all the time
- It should look good in a photograph
- We can be fully present with the people in the room, with our phones and devices on
If you're a leader trying to cultivate deeper connections at work and build community and resilience on your team, this conversation is for you!
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Charles Vogl is an adviser, speaker, and the author of three books, including the international bestseller The Art of Community. He has worked with Google in several capacities, including as a trusted thought leader for the Google School for Leaders, which develops over 20,000 Google managers. His work is used to advise and develop leadership and programs worldwide within organizations, including Airbnb, LinkedIn, Twitch, Amazon, ServiceNow, Dow Inc. and the US Army. Charles holds an M.Div. from Yale, where he studied spiritual traditions, ethics, and business as a Jesse Ball duPont Foundation scholar.
To learn more about his work, download free community-building resources, and grab copies of his books, head to charlesvogl.com.
You can also connect with him on LinkedIn and Instagram (@charlesvogl).
Charles Vogl: [00:00:00] My work is constantly pushing against the assumptions of our time that are obviously failing to remind people of how people connected for generations before we got to this disaster of cultural patterns.
But here's the thing: as soon as we change it, everything changes.
Judith: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
Céline Williams: My guest today is Charles Vogl, author, speaker, and leadership development advisor who has worked with organizations such as Airbnb and the US Army and is a thought leader at the Google [00:01:00] School for Leadership. He's best known for his book, The Art of Community, now in its second edition.
Welcome Charles.
Charles Vogl: Uh, Celine. Thank you for welcoming me.
Céline Williams: It is my pleasure. Um, the way we always start this podcast is I ask the question, the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. When you hear that phrase. What does that mean for you or what comes up for you?
Charles Vogl: The way I define crisis as a working definition for myself is a crisis, is we come to a place where there are at least two outcomes that are possible, and we have to make choices to lead to one of those two outcomes. Although, of course, there may be more than others. And, you know, when I think of a crisis, I think of high stakes.
I know colloquially many people who have not had a lot of experience in leadership or maybe gotten out very much, will mislabel challenges as crises. Mm-hmm. And sometimes we have to remind them that not everything is a crisis, but nonetheless, it's a point where it's incumbent on us to recognize what are the [00:02:00] possible outcomes and to make choices and make investments to lead to an outcome that's better for our vision.
Céline Williams: Yeah. It's. That it. So I will tell you, having had quite a few of these conversations, that's a really unique and interesting take on crisis and people very rarely, I don't think anyone in my memory has brought up the idea of making a choice like that, being part of where there's a, a decision to be made.
Charles Vogl: I'm so confused. 'cause then it's not a crisis. You're just on a fatalistic journey.
Céline Williams: Right. But I think people often frame the experience of change or challenge as the crisis. Like the experience of it is what qualifies as a crisis. And I love what you're saying about there's a decision that's part of it.
Charles Vogl: Alright. I am really confused because I don't know how you demonstrate any leadership. I don't know how you develop leadership. I don't even know how you call it leadership [00:03:00] if there are literally no decisions to make.
Céline Williams: I agree, and I think that, I just don't think people verbalize it that way.
People are assuming there's a choice somewhere in there, but it's the experience of going through it or, you know, I am choosing to show up this way in the crisis that is happening to me. Does that make sense?
Charles Vogl: Okay, I'm just gonna trust you.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: Because you've obviously had more conversations and I'm just so shocked you can tell by my reaction.
Céline Williams: But I
Charles Vogl: Then what is,
Céline Williams: Listen, I don't love shocking you, but I am pointing this out because I think the way you phrased it is so powerful. And important, right? Like, okay, it is, we are making a decision, two or more outcomes, but there's a choice inside of that and
Charles Vogl: mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: It sounds like the, like part of the leadership piece, we're not saying all of it is how you get to making that decision, how you make that choice.
Okay. Is that fair that that's part of, like, when you think of the leading piece of it? Or is [00:04:00] I'm comfortable being wrong, Charles?
Charles Vogl: The reason I'm pausing is there's so many layers to leadership, right? There's the values, layers, there's the boundaries of the context, right? Like, there's some things I can say to women in my family that I, that would be considered polite and helpful, that I better not say to a new hire.
Sure. It's not 'cause it's just as generous or just as kind, it's just the rules are different. So, you know, there's that layer, then there's a layer of, agency, you know, like how much agents do I perceive or others want to give me, right? Yeah. There's a, there's a layer of commitment and duty. My, so when you say, you know, how do you get to that decision?
I really appreciate Kevin Eikenberry's's, really great articulation in his work on flexible leadership. We have to recognize that different situations and that I'm gonna equate that with different crises
Céline Williams: mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: Require very different responses in leadership.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Charles Vogl: So when I'm [00:05:00] presented a general statement about leadership crisis, I immediately become confused.
True. Like, I don't know how to answer this, because I don't know what kind of crisis, I dunno what we're doing with Yeah. With the outcome. Is it long term, is it short term, is it immediate? Our lives at stake? You know, there's just all kinds of stuff and, and maybe we should edit all this out 'cause it's not helping anybody.
It's just acknowledging my confusion
Céline Williams: No.
Charles Vogl: On how to give a quick answer.
Céline Williams: So I, I don't expect a quick answer and I don't think, I don't think it needs to be edited out. Because what you're acknowledging, which is really important, is that context matters for all of these things, right? Yeah. It is a broad statement.
It's the name of a podcast. It's a broad state. Leading through crisis is meant to be encompassing of a number of different things. It is not meant to be one thing because context matters and what you're acknowledging is, yeah. I mean, you're not even, you're saying it, the context matters a lot. Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: Okay.
Céline Williams: That's why I ask what it means to you. [00:06:00] Doesn't mean, you know, I want your perspective. So thank you for that. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask the question.
The work that you have done. And I'm not saying it's the only work that you've done, but a lot, the work that you've done, the book that you've written that you are best known for on community. I, my observation would be that there is a, some sort of crisis or people's perceptions that there is a crisis when it comes to connection and community in general these days.
Mm-hmm. And so acknowledging I, you don't have to agree with me. I would, that would be something that I would observe, that I've seen, that I've heard from people. With the work that you do in terms of community with the work that you do, and that what you've written about it, your expertise there.
Do you see crisis as part of [00:07:00] that? Do you see it showing up where like, I am kind of asking a broad question 'cause I don't know. What your experience has been. So it's kind of an open-ended, what do you think?
Charles Vogl: So the question is, do I recognize that my work is relevant to ongoing crises now?
Céline Williams: Great. That is a way better way of phrasing it.
Charles Vogl: Okay. So unfortunately the answer is yes. And let's define it just for the purpose of this conversation, please. I'll say that it's a crisis because lives are at stake and I wish there were another way.
Céline Williams: Okay.
Charles Vogl: And if they weren't at stake, this might be a nice to have or an important subject, but that's not the reality of our time.
So, I've noticed that the industry that have really grabbed my work are healthcare.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: Military, both active duty and veteran, education and certain areas of cutting edge global tech. And in every single one of those fields, when people get [00:08:00] handling those challenges wrong, people die.
Mm. And, it might surprise some, listening that that's true about education and, it, this is unfortunate truth, maybe relevant to this conversation. You know, the mental health of our, youth is so bad that, the top universities in our country literally can't spend money fast enough to meet the mental health challenges they know that are present in their own student bodies.
And I don't know if adults know that the mental health challenges of our country are so great that the top universities actually change their academic schedules to accommodate the mental health dangers of the undergrads. Not just undergrads, but including undergrads. And they get, they build in downtime in the schedules that there's what they call a decompression time.
Oh, interesting. So the stress doesn't build up. And we have, you know, quite frankly, you know, fatal choices being made. So that, to me, that counts as a crisis. And I wish it were another way. I wish when I talked to military families or veterans [00:09:00] groups or people who work in the US military, the stakes were not so high on, on the relevance of my work.
Céline Williams: I had no idea that that was the case. So I appreciate you sharing. Mm-hmm. I mean, we've, I think many of us have heard of the mental health crisis, but that specificity, I had no idea. So thank you for sharing. It's very surprising and eyeopening.
Charles Vogl: Yeah. I mean, I wonder how many Americans don't know how bad it is, in our country. It's bad, bad. I, I'm, I'm loathed to start spewing statistics a 'cause it's dry and also it's, it's really dispiriting. But everybody who has access to the internet can look these things up very quickly.
Céline Williams: Yeah,
Charles Vogl: yeah.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: So that's how my work is relevant to those fields in particular. and the reason that's disappointing for me is I would love for my work to make a difference, where we're not actually counting people dying and at what rate, and I think that this work is relevant [00:10:00] even before people are taking their own lives or the lives of others.
But this is a crisis podcast, so here we are.
Céline Williams: Well,
it makes sense that your work is relevant in those crises. And I'm curious so that we don't only talk about the crises.
Charles Vogl: Mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: You know, you said you wish that your work were relevant or were. I mean, it's relevant in a lot of ways that
Charles Vogl: mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: In other situations.
Charles Vogl: Mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: where in an ideal world, where would your work come into play? Where would be the, like ideal entry point for people when it comes to your work?
Charles Vogl: Well, you're not helping Céline, 'cause ideally my work is irrelevant. That, the wisdom that I'm sharing, is so obvious and so prevalent that there's no need for me to fly around and, and talk about it.
Right. But, but we can talk about, you know, where and how it's relevant even when people aren't necessarily, you know, lives are at stake.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: So, I like to think of my work as, not new, but simply [00:11:00] me distilling and interpreting ancient wisdom. Our families have been using for untold generations to knit people together in relationships that make us stronger and more resilient and more adaptable to get through whatever is, is ha whatever comes up.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: And you know that both your family and my family for the last pick a number 500 years have handled all kinds of political, and, social and, environmental challenges and here you and I are.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: And so, very quickly my work is about, helping people in leadership roles knit together relationships in ways that people care about one another.
And I call a community a group of people who share mutual concern for one another. And you can have a group of people who, like the same music or live in the same place. They might work in the same organization, but if there is no concern for one another, then I would not call that a community.
I would call that a group. [00:12:00] And, there are things we can do that knit people together into community. And that's where my work is relevant and, unfortunately it's terribly, terribly relevant in our time.
Céline Williams: One of the things that, drives a lot of what I care about in the world of work is that we spend so much time at work or working that that environment has by default become community or a source of community.
But to what you are saying, it doesn't often have what you are defining as the key element of community. Like work is, our community center work has replaced where there was care from a church or whatever it was. Work has now taken over that time, but it doesn't have the key elements that define community as often.
Charles Vogl: Right. So this is important, this is a good example where we need to start, defining our terms.
Céline Williams: Sure.
Charles Vogl: Because [00:13:00] it sounds like you're creating connections at work or through work, right. But is that a community? And so when you get a really bad diagnosis, are there people that you can call
Céline Williams: Exactly.
Charles Vogl: Can call, will call, walk the call to help you get through maybe three months of terrible recovery?
Céline Williams: Right.
Charles Vogl: Right. And for many, many people the answer is no.
Céline Williams: Absolutely.
Charles Vogl: In fact, the statistics that were recently published by our former surgeon General Vivek Murthy, the research that he referenced says that, half of Americans do not have four close friends to call.
Mm-hmm. In fact, the research shows that half of Americans have three friends or less.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: So if you have, if that's half Americans and the research also shows that one in six American men have no close friends. Now there's noise in the research. But that's the research that surgeon General thought was credible enough to publish.
So when you go to stadium and you look at a hundred thousand fans, you know, consider that roughly one in six. [00:14:00] The women have slightly more friends than men. Slightly, but roughly one six Americans, say they don't have one close friend call for help. And that's people who have no close friends.
So when a kid gets sick, when there's disaster in your family when you lose a job, the experience of most of us is, we are disconnected and alone. Mm-hmm. And that does not provide for resilience and it does not provide for adaptability. Now, I know that you have, organizational and corporate leaders listening to your podcast.
That is also true in organizations. And so we know that we are operating in a time that's changing faster maybe than any time in human history, certainly faster than we can keep up. And certainly 2020 showed us all, the world doesn't care what your five-year plan is. The world's gonna happen.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: So if you haven't learned that you have to be adaptable now, then you're not gonna, well, you can't be adaptable if you don't have people to call upon who have different perspective, different knowledge, different insight could do different things that you can in a world that you didn't [00:15:00] predict that that's what you'd need.
Céline Williams: Right.
Charles Vogl: Just can't be, and you certainly can't be resilient if you don't have a whole number of people that you can call upon to handle whatever is now facing, you know, your resilience. So that's where my work is relevant. When we're talking about leadership. People who are very sophisticated leaders know bad days are gonna come.
I don't mean bad days, like I'm in a bad mood or Yeah. Gee, my car is really hot. Right? I mean, bad day. Like we don't know if the kids are gonna make it. That kind of bad day.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Charles Vogl: You know, bad day. Like, uh, we gotta figure out how many Vs are going to the ICU. So experienced and senior leaders understand we have to prepare for those DA days and we know that we're living a culture that is not naturally knitted together, these relationships.
Right. People I'm interviewing, the interns that are coming in, people that I'm hiring, they're not getting these skills. Mm. Well-documented surgeon general talking about it. So then there's my work where we can distill and translate very, very time-tested ideas to help knit together those relationships.
And that's why [00:16:00] organizations like the US Army and Google bring me in because they understand, this is critical of their long-term success.
Céline Williams: So I'm very curious. There's two things that, I was, that came up as you were talking. Mm-hmm. The first one is based on what you last said, which is like, how do we cult?
Like how do we. Build those connections, build that, that mm-hmm. That I would call intimacy in relationships where it's beyond something that is very superficial. So that's the first thing. And I'm gonna say the second thing because it, it earlier came up, but it is related. I think that some of the challenge, maybe co inside of this comes from, especially in North America, we're very hyper-focused on the individual individuality, taking care of myself.
I, I'm gonna acknowledge, I do not think that resilience is a solo [00:17:00] endeavor, but a lot of people do. And we really have valued that in a specific way. And that seems very counter to what you're talking about, connection and community. And so
Charles Vogl: yeah, you've touched on a whole bee hive of, of stuff here, and I don't know if you're aware of that.
Céline Williams: I love that.
Charles Vogl: Yeah.
Céline Williams: Thank you.
Charles Vogl: I love what be, so let's talk about resilience. You said, I don't think resilience happens once. So I've talked with a number of war fighters over years now. I haven't found the one who wants to face the enemy by themselves, haven't met that one.
Céline Williams: Right?
Charles Vogl: Okay. And the enemy would love to find, someone who thinks they're resilient and they're fighting war by themselves.
Céline Williams: Right.
Charles Vogl: In fact, when I talk to people with very, very special skills in the military and do very, very special assignments, even they are supported by untold thousands of people who are not, facing the enemy, like people who are flying the aircraft and, and fueling the aircraft and making sure the equipment [00:18:00] works, making sure the equipment gets down range to the war's being fighting.
So anybody who says, well, resilience happens because we think of it as individual thing, they're just totally misguided. Totally misguided on what resilience looks like.
Céline Williams: Right.
Charles Vogl: The other thing when you talk to people who have special assignments in the US military is, they understand need to get the relationships of profound trust and competence has to happen before you ever meet the enemy said differently.
They invest in that 'cause they understand how critical that is and just hope it works out when gunshots ring out.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: So, yeah, it's just a total misunderstanding of what resilience looks like if we were pushed that way.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: And this misunderstanding, from my interpretation comes from a totally misguided and erroneous interpretation of Darwinism from just over a hundred years ago.
This idea that survival of the fittest happens by the strongest so-called fittest, often male, [00:19:00] who's most dominating, should be the leader is gonna survive, is gonna right. My understanding is in just the last 10 years, we've seen, evolutionary scientists in our country finally, name in their language what spiritual teachers and ethicists I'm talking about for generations is that is just totally wrong.
That idea works fantastically, that the individual strongest who can dominate is gonna be the leader works fantastic as soon as you have an end of one.
Céline Williams: Yeah,
Charles Vogl: as soon as your end gets above one, a team of three military group of 15, all of a sudden nobody wants the selfish person who's gonna show they can dominate and can be the strongest by themselves, and all of you better catch up and show that you're fit right now.
What we want is someone who will do five units of investment days or hours, and they may only get three days personally, but the group's gonna get seven days of benefit. [00:20:00] And if you have a whole team that's willing, put in five days for a net seven for the group, now you're unstoppable.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: And now you can adapt because you've got resources that you can generate and you're more resilient.
Well, that means throwing away entire assumption that what we're looking for and what we're building for is individual strength. Mm-hmm. And selfishness.
Céline Williams: Yeah. And yet that's a really common assumption, and I imagine mm-hmm. Very hard to, for people to throw away it.
Charles Vogl: Yeah.
Céline Williams: Very successful people that that's still what they value most.
And they talk about it very publicly.
Charles Vogl: It's a myth in American leadership. And I, I can't think of a single, top tier class leadership, development professional, or people who are working at the actual very tip top of their field. That buys that [00:21:00] myth. In fact, just the opposite. When I think of people who are actually at the very tip of success in their field, they're cognizant that they have to build around them and nurture a profound team to have the success that they envision.
And you can fake it for a while, but then you crash and burn and the world laughs at you.
Céline Williams: I'm always very curious about that tension between the individual and the community, because I think that we see it play out in many different ways, whether just, even if you're observing the world, we see that playing out.
So I appreciate you kind of. Stepping into that beehive that I poked a little
Charles Vogl: And David Sloan Wilson is the evolutionary biologist. He wrote the book, does Altruism exist? Mm-hmm. And it's, my understanding is that's the book that really broke the conversation that's survival of the fittest at individual level is what provides, success.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: And that was at least 10 years ago. But as in all things academics, it starts the top [00:22:00] and trickles down. So it's not yet part of the mainstream zeitgeist.
Céline Williams: So when you, may to go back to the question I kind of asked originally was how do people build those deeper connections?
Go get into more intimate relationships? Not romantic, but like intimate as in deep, especially in this world where while we often talk about vulnerability and openness, people don't actually wanna, you know, show vulnerability and be weak. And that is part of connecting and authenticity and all these things.
So how, how can people do this?
Charles Vogl: All right, well you all, again, you touched on many, many things.
Céline Williams: This is
Charles Vogl: like mechanically how it happen. This
Céline Williams: is what I do, Charles is, I like to touch on
Charles Vogl: that. Well, I like to, you know, the reason I'm, I wanna break this down is please, I wanna be really clear that there aren't just broad, trite answers that smart people,
Céline Williams: good,
Charles Vogl: smart people are gonna recognize broad, trite answers.
Mm-hmm. And I don't [00:23:00] like provide those.
Céline Williams: Perfect.
Charles Vogl: So you touched on the mechanics of it. And then you talked about vulnerability. Vulnerability is a very deep subject.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Charles Vogl: Because there are cultural, learn gender roles.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: Um, and context, that vulnerability, uh, play in. Yes. And that's, so I just wanted to say there's two separate things that we could talk about.
Céline Williams: Great.
Charles Vogl: So for the purposes of this conversation, one of the things I can share is those deep connections, happen in ways and in places that I've discovered are completely opposite of how most Americans seem to think they're created. So, for example, see if you and I went to an association
Céline Williams: mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: And the association said to us, well, we really want our members to connect. We want better connection opportunities. We have a budget, we have their content information. They really want to connect. Let's do that. In my experience, what often happens is someone at the organization is assigned to create an event.
It usually involves a large loom, large [00:24:00] room, some kind of musical entertainment, alcoholic beverages, and then, maybe an expensive caterer. If they have the budget and it is an expensive caterer, then big tables. With decorations. Have you been to that room before Celine?
Céline Williams: Oh, so many times.
Charles Vogl: Yeah. So many times. Right. So we know that people are spending millions of dollars and inviting in some associations, tens of thousands of people to come into that room, literally and figuratively, Celine, if you find out that someone in your family is gonna get a bad diagnosis today
Céline Williams: mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: And you're gonna be spending more time in the ICU in the next three weeks than you thought, are there three people you have in mind that you would call for help for the next three weeks?
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: Okay. So, answer this question to me. Those are relationships that you're thinking of.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: Were any of them developed in a big room? At a big table with loud music,
Céline Williams: zero.
Charles Vogl: Zero, exactly. Right. Zero. And so what I wanna illustrate by just as example you shared with us is we actually connect in [00:25:00] exactly the opposite venues.
That organizations are inviting people into and spending money on and declaring victory that they're creating, connecting events,
Céline Williams: right?
Charles Vogl: But here's the problem. They gotta call someone like me who's a thought leader, pushing against conventional wisdom to start getting close to even imagining a venue that would generate relationships that you've already generated, that you know, you have people to call when you need help,
Céline Williams: right?
Charles Vogl: So for the purposes of teaching this to leadership, I call these campfire experiences. We need to create campfire experiences, and here's how we recognize a campfire experience. people are physically close enough to have a possible intimate conversation. They, during that time have enough time and freedom to have the conversation they want to have, which is to say not listening to an expert who wrote a book or accomplishing agenda as someone who wants to be a fun event.
The last thing is all the conditions that would pull us out of possibly [00:26:00] intimate conversation have been handled by the host. So when you think of the conversations that generated those friends that you would call today, my guess is you develop those relationships in a series of experiences that meet the criteria of a campfire experience.
Céline Williams: Yeah. I think that's very accurate.
Charles Vogl: So when you asked me, Charles, well, how do we connect people that are critical for our success be then our team, be those sponsors, be those collaborators, be they customers. The answer is amongst the things we have to do is we have to create a series of campfire experiences if we ever hope them to feel connected to each other or connected to us.
Céline Williams: Mm.
Charles Vogl: But here's what we know. If we don't have campfire experiences, something's happening. But it's not the connection that you're seeking.
Céline Williams: Yep. Well, I, it is, as you say that my brain immediately distinguished like that, a [00:27:00] campfire experience where you are creating connection versus what I would call networking, where you're just going to meet people, get a business card, check a box, that's it.
Charles Vogl: Mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: There isn't a real connection.
Charles Vogl: Well, if you think of the last a hundred hours you spent networking, Celine,
Céline Williams: do I have to
Charles Vogl: think how many people that
Céline Williams: do I have to,
Charles Vogl: if you do think of the last a hundred hours.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Charles Vogl: How many people do you now know that you would call for help?
Céline Williams: Oh,
Charles Vogl: no. From those a hundred hours,
Céline Williams: zero of those people.
Charles Vogl: Oh, wow. Zero
Céline Williams: of those people.
Charles Vogl: So zero, zero outta every a hundred hours. So if you spend a thousand hours, how many people do we expect you to have?
Céline Williams: Maybe one, maybe,
Charles Vogl: maybe, maybe some fraction of zero. Right. So if I'm a leader of an organization, war fighters, emergency department, medical professionals, faculty at an institution with tens of thousand students, my guess is I want everybody connected there to have a dozen people to call on a, a bad day.
And [00:28:00] according to your own experience as a professional who talks about leadership, you can't eng even generate two confidently in a thousand hours of networking. So we gotta do something different.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: And that's where my work's relevant.
Céline Williams: Yeah. And I would also say the experiences I have had that have been more in line with what you would call a campfire experience, which even with some leadership teams that I've worked with were done around a campfire at offsite.
Mm-hmm. Those are people that I probably would call, those are not networking events, but those are people that I know. And I would say when my mother was sick and before she died eight years ago, those were the people that did show up and did support. Mm-hmm. And had like, gave me a lot of grace because we'd had those, they weren't just people at a networking event.
Right. It had, we had gone deeper in some way, shape, or form. So I think it is, it, it is a important [00:29:00] distinction for us to recognize that they are not the same.
Charles Vogl: Mm-hmm. So that's the quick answer to what do we have to do and we can go one layer deeper. I notice we live in a culture that likes to skip a part of the experience of coming together.
And I call that an invitation. And in my work, an invitation is request to spend time where the person invited, knows that somebody cares if they show up. And I notice that we live in a culture where people like to skip that part and if, someone doesn't know that anybody cares if they show up. We call that an announcement.
So when I go to an organization and they care about people connecting ways that they'll, build resilience, build adaptability, the first thing I'm looking for is, well, what are you inviting people to? And if the answer is by that definition, nobody, then I'm like, well, that's where we gotta start.
Will that solve everything. Probably not, but here's what I know until I see [00:30:00] that people you want to connect are invited to something, I know they're not gonna connect. And if I finds out you're inviting them to things where we know by Celine's experience alone, they're not gonna connect, then let's not be surprised they're not connecting, be they war fighters or medical professionals or anybody else.
Céline Williams: Yeah, I, it makes me curious how many organizations, groups, whatever are. Even considering or having the intention of bringing people together to build adaptability or resilience or something else, versus we need to bring people together because it's the thing we've always done and it's important to bring people together because someone told us that we have to bring people together.
Charles Vogl: Right. So there's missing clear intention.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: Yeah.
Céline Williams: I'm not sure if this is a question so much as a, how can organizations, how can leaders shift [00:31:00] that piece of it? Like how, if we are what I mean is like the idea, the concept of connection community, people are like, yeah, we have to connect. There's not the intention behind it.
How can people get clear on that piece of it? So it's not just like we need to connect because connection.
Charles Vogl: Okay, so this is a really good question because we need to define connection. 'cause some people who don't understand this, they think connection is just people are physically in the same place and they're talking.
I can talk a lot. I live in Berkeley . I can talk a lot about Berkeley traffic. I don't think we're connecting, right? I think you just heard me ramble on about Berkeley traffic in parking,
Céline Williams: right?
Charles Vogl: So, I didn't invent this, but the purpose of my work connection is when someone gets data so that they believe, and I hope accurately that the other person understands them both intellectually and emotionally.
Hmm. So if we talk for four hours, and all I hear about is how [00:32:00] much you hate your neighbor.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: Right? Are we connected? Well, I know you don't like your neighbor.
Céline Williams: Right.
Charles Vogl: So one of the things that needs to happen is we do create venues where people show up with an intention, where they can have a campfire experience where they leave saying, oh, I had a conversation with Celine, which happened over enough time, that she understands both intellectually, that I'm an author, that I work in leadership development, that, my work is sourced from spiritual traditions that have been demonstrating resilience and adaptability for over a thousand years.
And she also understands emotionally what it is to be a person with a message in a world where, there's more people trying to get attention than in the history of people getting attention. It involves flying around the world in time zones to have success, and my body's not getting younger, and then I have my own journey that I wanna pursue.
There's nothing to do with speaking about the [00:33:00] basics of leadership development from a book I wrote, you know, years ago. Right. Now we're getting to connection because I understand that you understand both emotionally, the journey I'm on and intellectually what I'm doing. And of course there's infinite levels of that.
'cause we could talk about parenting or we could talk about civic life or philanthropic life or spiritual life. But I need that venue and we need to have an experience that speaks to that. And what I've noticed organizations do who aren't sophisticated yet haven't called me, is what they say is, everybody we need to connect.
We're going to get an open bar at this club from six o'clock to nine o'clock on Friday. And you, if you're not there, we know you're not a team player.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Charles Vogl: Everybody with a parent is like, wow, from six o'clock to nine o'clock on Fridays, I really wanna be with my kids and I don't wanna be around drunk colleagues and I don't want to do it in the room.
so loud, I can't talk to them and I don't want to do it surrounded by televisions, with sports games on, with beer commercials on them. Mm-hmm. But I guess we're [00:34:00] gonna connect. And the success is exactly what you think it's gonna be.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: And now you see why Google calls me.
Céline Williams: Yes. And I just wanna say thank you for defining connection the way you did, because that's, yeah.
You know, a lot of inside of these conversations, I do ask broad questions on purpose so that you can define it. 'cause I don't wanna assume what your definition is, and I will state my assumption sometimes, but I think it's important because context matters so much and how we define things matters.
And your definition of connection, I would guess. Having been to a few events in my life and known a few people in my life, very few people have even thought about that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. As a definition of connection.
Charles Vogl: Yeah.
Céline Williams: And yet it matters.
Charles Vogl: Uh, [00:35:00] that's why I do this. I, you know, my work is constantly pushing against the assumptions of our time that are obviously failing to remind people of how people connected for generations before we got to this disaster of cultural patterns.
But here's the thing, as soon as we change it, everything changes.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: But I have to push, push, push. I'm working with a national nonprofit right now. Later this month, they're having me fly out to their offsite for their national gathering. And they asked me to create some dinner experiences for both the whole national, staff and then their executive team.
And, I lead these multi-hour dinner experiences that are profound campfire experiences for people who need to build these relationships, you know, for that cooperation and adaptability. And we've been having planning calls with the staff and I've given them the, the agenda, the flow of events, what we're gonna do, what we need to prepare.
And at [00:36:00] every stage they say, oh, that's great, but can we add this part where we have people stand up and tell stories? Can we add this part where we'll give people assignments to do this thing? Can we add this part where instead of just the blessing, could we have six people each offer a blessing in their tradition, they want to fill the time with programming.
And we just spoke that a campfire experiences, right? People are physically close enough to having intimate conversation. They have the freedom to have the conversation they wanna have 'cause they're not listening to people stand up giving stories that you programmed in the middle of this. And like, it's hard for me to believe.
I do believe it. Yeah. It's like you told me you wanted something different. You know what we're trying to do to create something different. And in every conversation, your knee jerk, the compulsion of our time is to fill this with distraction.
Céline Williams: Yes. That's what it is. It is filling it with [00:37:00] distraction.
Charles Vogl: Right.
Céline Williams: I'm sure you've said that a hundred times, but that is a great way of phrasing it,
Charles Vogl: Can you imagine these conversations with these friends? I don't know yet who are there for you when you need them. Can you imagine if when you gather with them, someone says, great, great, great, you're gonna talk, but before, could you, could you stop talking and face the front of the room and listening to these stories of people you don't know who are gonna share a story that you didn't prompt them on?
Like, would that have deepened that friendship? No. Now I'm not saying that's bad and there, there can be appropriate venues for that, but notice that, that we're trying to create an event to help knit together relationships of resilience for this team. And they just keep wanting to pull it back into something else.
Yeah. It's a thing.
Céline Williams: Yeah. I, you mentioned that the, in the work you do, you're constantly pushing against the biases and assumptions that suck and got us to where we, I you didn't say suck. Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] I'm saying suck that are not so great and suck and got us to where we are now. What are some of those? I'm, I love calling out biases and assumptions.
Mm-hmm. So fully my, I am, this is my bias is I love calling these things out. So I'm curious what some of those are. So, or some of the patterns that you see in those are, and the biases and assumptions.
Charles Vogl: Right. So the first one I'm gonna start with, because I see it everywhere, is this assumption that we need to be entertained all the time.
And, Celine and everyone listening, if you think of the conversations, the experiences, the walks on the beach. The camp, the actual campfire sitting that you did, that generated relationships are mattered to you? Did you need more entertainment?
Céline Williams: No.
Charles Vogl: No. In fact, that would've really made you mad if some said, oh wait, I got a banjo player here to entertain you while you're that, right?
Céline Williams: Yep.
Charles Vogl: That's not to say entertainment is bad, but perhaps not. We don't [00:39:00] need the entertainment.
Céline Williams: Right?
Charles Vogl: Right. We need the context. We need the intention. We need the invitation. We need a venue that's safe enough and calm enough and warm enough, and you need to be fed enough. But I don't need the entertainment.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: So that's one thing I have to push against. The other thing is, I noticed that we live in a time where people who create events be there for a large organization or a nonprofit, small nonprofit, they want it to look good in a photograph.
Céline Williams: Oh. Instagram.
Charles Vogl: Right.
Céline Williams: It's all about that. Like I call it
Charles Vogl: whether's Instagram or a quarterly report.
Yep. They want a really good photograph.
Céline Williams: Yep. Agreed.
Charles Vogl: Again, Celine, think of your top 10 best friends and the best times you had with them. Sharing that and stuff. Maybe some of 'em had crisis and you showed up late in the night. Was that a good photograph?
Céline Williams: No,
Charles Vogl: no, no. None of it was a good photograph.
And if somebody was watching you from a hundred feet away, hopefully not listening to a private conversation, my guess is they would've thought it looked really boring.
Céline Williams: For sure.
Charles Vogl: So what we need to [00:40:00] understand we have to push against is the best events look boring and they're never good for the photograph.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: If you wanted the photograph before or after, God bless you, whatevs. But if what you actually want is your team where lives are at stake, if they don't have resilience, adaptability, notice the events that you're gonna create are a little look boring. Yeah. And you're not gonna have great photographs when they're working.
Céline Williams: I, I think that is a very astute observation of a bias, because I, I think of when I am with people that I'm really connecting with, the last thing we're thinking about is photographs. That's right. The last thing we're thinking about is what does this look like?
Whether, by the way this is true, whether we're having a great time and it's something like really fun and uplifting that we're, or we're talk, we're it's serious and you know, not
Charles Vogl: mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: Maybe the most positive or joyous moment in neither circumstance are we like, Ooh, [00:41:00] ooh, you know what matters. Let's take pictures now.
Hmm. Doesn't happen. Mm-hmm. Are there any others that you think you, I
Charles Vogl: I can go on for a long time. That's why I have plenty to do. Right.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: If this was easy, then people wouldn't call me. Another one is there's a wholesale disrespect
Céline Williams: Ooh.
Charles Vogl: For the scale of interruption. Cell phones and devices have on relationship building. They're so toxic that the research shows that even having a cell phone in view erodes our, time with other people, even if it's not being used. And then when it's, when it is used in the research, they call that phubbing, you're snubbing someone for your phone, phubbing, then that of course takes it a whole nother level.
So when I'm hosting events, we ritually. [00:42:00] Remove the phones from the room and I tell all participants, you're gonna join me in choosing to be with the people in the room instead of the people outside the room. And I've done that in rooms of thousands now, and it changes the energy of the room, it changes what's happening.
And I'm aware that for the people in the room, it is very often the first room they've been in for years, where everyone else has chosen to be focused on people in the room instead of whatever is coming in from outside the room, it's free to do, it takes less than five minutes and it profoundly changes in experience.
Céline Williams: I have not heard the term phubbing before. But I can completely understand how powerful that would be and also [00:43:00] how important the experience then becomes in that room.
Because oftentimes the event, the networking, the connection is so disconnected that people are on their phones because they don't care about, like, it's, they're not connected to what's happening in the room in their immediate vicinity. Does that make sense?
Charles Vogl: Well, they can't be connected 'cause our brain cannot, cannot track two things at once. And our phones are, are designed by very, very smart people to grab our attention. And you can't win.
Céline Williams: And also oftentimes to kind of what you were saying, the the an event is, I'm calling an event, whatever you wanna call it, is not designed for that campfire experience.
And when it is that, like someone is up there like, let me tell you about this thing, or let's talk about this, or I'm gonna speak at you. Or it's so not that intimate connection that you're on your phone 'cause you're like, I just don't care. [00:44:00]
Charles Vogl: Right.
Céline Williams: So it's,
Charles Vogl: well, I'll give you a sense of the, how I have witnessed the scale that we're pushing aback against this in my work.
Céline Williams: Hmm.
Charles Vogl: So when I'm speak to large rooms, even rooms of thousands, someone on my team tells the person booking me that Charles is going to tell everybody in the room to turn off their phone and hide it. And, there's a response to that information that's so predictable. We actually have a name for it.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: And we call it the freak out.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Charles Vogl: The person who's booking me is not the president of the company. Right. Or the vice president who's overseeing it. They're just booking the speaker. And so when they find out that Charles is gonna tell the president of the company to hide their phone, there's a freak out.
Céline Williams: Yep.
Charles Vogl: And it's so predictable what they're gonna say next that I'm telling you what they're gonna say next.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: And they have a much better idea how we should handle the phones than I do.
Céline Williams: Of
Charles Vogl: course they tell us.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: And very often what they tell us is instead of turning off the phones and hiding them [00:45:00] in bags, how about we just have everybody put their phone in the middle of the conference table that they're sitting at right now?
Celine. Celine, uh, I think, you know, I have a degree in religion, right?
Céline Williams: Yep.
Charles Vogl: what I'm about to tell you, I'm guessing you don't need a degree in religion to understand,
Céline Williams: okay,
Charles Vogl: Celine, if you go into a space you'd ever been in before
Céline Williams: You
Charles Vogl: don't have the people. You don't, they do. There. But you see things that are placed in the center, lifted up.
Yep. And lit
Céline Williams: uhhuh,
Charles Vogl: you have a sense of that thing is more or less important than other things in the room?
Céline Williams: Oh, very clearly more.
Charles Vogl: Right. So their response to me, us, when we say Charles is gonna tell 'em to turn 'em off and hide them is, instead let's just have everybody, we put their cell phones in the middle.
Céline Williams: Right.
Charles Vogl: Lift it up on a table where they're lit.
Céline Williams: Right.
Charles Vogl: Because we think that's better.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: And in real [00:46:00] time, they're not aware that they are explaining to me exactly why we need to teach people to do something else.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Charles Vogl: And here's the irony, they're flying me in because they want someone to teach them how to better connect people they want connected to face critical challenges.
Céline Williams: Right, right.
Charles Vogl: Yeah.
Céline Williams: Well, and you know, nothing says. We need to connect people to face critical challenges. Like let's, let's put cell phones in the middle of the room in a way that makes it look like we're worshiping them for
Charles Vogl: Well, you are right. You are.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: As soon as someone says, stop using it, you say, well, I'm gonna put it in the most honorific place in the room.
Céline Williams: That's right.
Charles Vogl: Right.
Céline Williams: Don't forget about us.
Charles Vogl: Forget about us. Like, it's literally where you would put a token from your grandfather that you brought to the conference. You literally put it in that place.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: So we have an uphill battle in facing a culture that is trained to pull us away from each other and go to where, technologists are spending a lot of money to pull our attention.
Céline Williams: Yeah. [00:47:00] It's, sad, just it's a word that comes to mind. It is sad. It is sad that
Charles Vogl: that's, it's profoundly sad
Céline Williams: that that's where we're at.
And that also our human brains are so simple in some ways that we just go, we get. Distracted. Like it would be wonderful if it was easy for us not to fall prey to the, the distractions of a cell phone or that technology. And it's sad.
Charles Vogl: Think that's a little bit simplistic because very smart people have spent many, many years and a lot of research money to figure out how to hook us.
Céline Williams: Yeah, I
Charles Vogl: agree. And kudos to them. They figured it out
Céline Williams: a hundred percent.
Charles Vogl: But we just need to respect that, you know, that's what's in our space in the midst of this crisis
Céline Williams: Yes.
Charles Vogl: You know, if you think of all the young people in your family, I don't know how many nephews, nieces, kids,
if you think of the young kids in your neighborhood Yeah. How many of them you wish for them to go into rooms where the, English speaking [00:48:00] adults are one hair away from worshiping the devices that connect them with people outside of the room.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: I know that sounds dramatic.
Maybe even hyperbolic. And the truth is, I don't think it's hyperbolic.
Céline Williams: I don't think it is either.
Charles Vogl: Mm-hmm.
Céline Williams: That's the work.
Charles Vogl: And hopefully my work will be irrelevant in a generation and people just know this is stupid and toxic, but in the meantime, it's a big deal
Céline Williams: It's relevant and important.
Charles Vogl: Yeah.
Céline Williams: Is what it's,
Charles Vogl: and nobody wants to hear it.
Céline Williams: because everyone wants to have, nobody wants to hear. 'cause they want to continue doing what they've always been doing. Hence why I asked about biases. They wanna continue doing what they've always been doing. Yeah. They wanna be told that they're right and this is the right direction.
They don't have to change anything to get to where they want to go. Right. That's also the reality. Before we wrap up, I'm gonna ask the question, is there anything that we didn't get to that you want to bring up or something you wanna [00:49:00] emphasize that we spoke about or. You're good and complete and neither of those things are true.
Charles Vogl: Well, as soon as I'm aware that some listeners may be thinking, well, gee, how can I create campfire experiences, invite people to things that are enriching and whatnot, what we haven't talked about is fun. All the people who are important in your life that you would call upon and and wanna get the call, you have fun with them.
So I'm not talking about the subject in academic level. Like, technically this is what we need to do. And by the way, if it's not fun, you're doing it wrong.
Céline Williams: Right?
Charles Vogl: And if it's not fun, people don't wanna show up. So we haven't talked about it, but my work's about creating fun, not wacky, fun for the sake of wackiness, but fun in the sense that I want more of that.
Céline Williams: Yeah,
Charles Vogl: I enjoyed that time with Celine. I enjoyed that time with my neighbors,
Céline Williams: right?
Charles Vogl: And so this should be fun. And you know, the irony is I think there's a lot of Americans who are really resistant to adding more fun into their life. Even if it's what makes us more resilient and more [00:50:00] adaptable in a time where we need both.
Céline Williams: Yeah. Can I ask you a question about that?
Charles Vogl: Okay. You can ask a question on your podcast.
Céline Williams: So
Charles Vogl: this time Celine,
Céline Williams: I thank you. Okay. So truly one of the things that I hear a lot in the world of leadership and, and just in the world right now in general is like, adults don't play enough. We need to play more, play, play, play, play, play.
And that word comes up a lot and mm-hmm. I, I don't think it's the same as fun necessarily because I think oftentimes we're creating play in this like arbitrary or childish or whate when people are creating experiences different than fun. I'm curious for you if you have any thoughts on that.
Or if there's a distinction for you between play and fun, because there are literally and no shade to play experts out there, but there are people who are like, I'm a [00:51:00] play expert and this is what I do.
Charles Vogl: So I have spent many hours speaking with, one of the foremost play experts in the world.
He's a Stanford professor and he actually changed my life in those conversations.
Céline Williams: Fantastic.
Charles Vogl: And made me think a lot about play and it's relevant to my work.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: For the purposes of my work, I would distinguish play and fun because I can do something that's work and it can be fun.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Charles Vogl: I can make a dinner for 10 people and that is by definition of work, I'm investing time and resources to create an outcome.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: But it can be fun and it can be way more fun if I have other cooks with me. But my understanding is play what we do for the sake of it, we would call that, intrinsic. Right. So I, play pickleball to play pickleball, but I cook to serve a meal. I don't cook to cook.
Céline Williams: Right,
Charles Vogl: right,
Céline Williams: right.
Charles Vogl: What we understand, we talk about fun, is people have radically different ways of having fun. Mm-hmm. And so when we create campfire experiences, when we invest in creating time for our people to [00:52:00] connect, if we don't respect the people of radically different ways of having fun, then what we do is we punish the people who don't have that kind of fun.
And we can actually fall into coercion by having them come. So for example, I would love to go to a seminar on the hunt last 150 years of circus arts evolution and their references to the Renaissance. I would love to go to that.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: Right. Maybe go to Paris, spend time in Montreal. I don't know if I know 30 people who would wanna join me on that.
Right. I know a lot of people who would love. To go to, a costume party with a lot of beer and I would pay an amount of money not to go to that party.
Céline Williams: Yeah, yeah.
Charles Vogl: Now, that doesn't make either of those experiences bad or one better than the other. But if you say, well, Charles, we're getting together as a team of authors and we're gonna spend every Friday night at a costume party having the best German beer.
Well, I'm looking for a [00:53:00] subscription to get outta that.
Céline Williams: Right?
Charles Vogl: And you're like, well, gee, you must not be a team player. You must not be cooperative. Right. And if I invite you to one three day seminar on the history of circus arts, you may never want to hang out with me again. Right. The point is, we have to be respectful in what's going to fit and not.
That's why one, suit doesn't not only fit for all people, but we can't necessarily take a model that work for another team or another culture and expect us to work, you know, for our team.
Céline Williams: Right. I appreciate that distinction. And for what it's worth, I would happily come to that seminar with you because
Charles Vogl: No, fantastic.
So I know one other person now.
Céline Williams: The whole, the, the, I don't mind a costume under certain circumstances, but not regularly. And the whole beer thing total, no, thank you.
Charles Vogl: Right.
Céline Williams: Not more,
Charles Vogl: but we would sit through a six hour seminar on, circus costumes. Yeah. And their, and, and how they, reference, you know, Renaissance, fashion.
Céline Williams: Absolutely. Happily.
Charles Vogl: Right. [00:54:00] So it's not like we're against costumes. We're not anti costumes. No.
Céline Williams: Nope. That's just, I love that as an example, because it is,
Charles Vogl: yeah.
Céline Williams: People experience fun differently
Charles Vogl: That's right.
Céline Williams: I think a lot of times we try to, structures are great. When we are trying to impose a structure on everyone expecting that everyone's gonna have the same experience, we're missing the whole point of individuality.
And everyone has, has their own experience. Everyone is different. It's the beauty of all of these things. Right?
Charles Vogl: Stuart Brown and he, I don't dunno if he's still teaching at Stanford, but he was when we were speaking and he has the book on play, Stuart Brown, Dr.
Stewart Brown. And he also lists, different archetypes of play that people respond to, which taught me that and how much people differ in the relationship to play and how much in my work when I'm teaching, we need to honor that.
Céline Williams: [00:55:00] Yeah.
Charles Vogl: Which is why when people say, well, we're having a sports night on Friday night, everybody should come.
If you're not, don't come. You're not a team player. That's toxic.
Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
Charles Vogl: Because it's not fun to everybody who doesn't like sports bars.
Céline Williams: Amen.
Charles Vogl: So you're not building connection, you're putting people in a coercive, toxic experience.
Céline Williams: So I refer to that often as forced family fun, where it is like, and I don't only mean family, but in a work environment where it's forced family fun, forced fun because it is toxic for some people.
Some people are like, this is the best thing ever. I love this. Let me and the people who are like, this sucks. I hate it. I don't wanna be here. It is very toxic. 'cause they feel forced mm-hmm. Coerced into doing it.
Charles Vogl: Yeah. As soon as our participants don't have the freedom to say no.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Charles Vogl: I don't mean they technically can't say no. They perceive and or do experience negative consequences for saying no. As soon as that happens. We've entered the realm of coercion.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Charles Vogl: Right. So you could invite me to a fantastic [00:56:00] dim sum lunch by a top five dim sum chef in the Bay Area. And I would normally not only go to that or bring my wife and, and spend money for that and you can invite me as soon as you say, you need to come, you need to bring your wife.
And if you don't, we know you're not a team player and you probably don't fit here. Same people, same lunch, same location, same date. And all of a sudden I don't want any part of it.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Charles Vogl: So a lot of organizations don't understand that they're toxifying their event before it even starts because they're disrespecting the context we need for that connection to happen.
Céline Williams: I love that, that you shared that. 'cause I think it's really important for anyone thinking of whether it's an organization creating a large event or a leader thinking of a small team of whatever it is. I think thats incredibly important. To consider and to really think about when, when you're putting anything like that together.
So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it very much. And generally thank [00:57:00] you for coming on and sharing so much and being so open. I love this kind of discussion where you're so clearly an expert in community connection and also can add all these different layers into it. I love that kind of conversation.
I know our listeners do. So thank you so much for coming and being a guest and sharing so openly with us today.
Charles Vogl: Well delighted to be here.
Céline Williams: And for anyone who is listening or watching, there will be more information in the show notes, but you can check out. Charles's website is Charles Vogl, and that's Charles spelled the normal way.
V-O-G-L.com. And all links in show notes. There'll be a link for the book as well. So thank you so much for your time today, Charles. Much
Charles Vogl: appreciated. And let me share before we sign off on that website, our free downloads
Céline Williams: fantastic.
Charles Vogl: Uh, for anybody creating, connecting events and we created those explicitly because flying around the world, I noticed people didn't have the principles make connecting events, connecting.
Those are free. They're under the downloads page. And then, just in a [00:58:00] couple weeks we're going to, release the guidelines for the multi-hour extended, we call 'em Sacred Dinners for Deep Friendship that I offer, that I create, so that anybody can take those guidelines if you so choose, create them for yourself without me.
Céline Williams: We will definitely link those in the notes. Thank you for that. I hope one day to come to one of those sacred dinners of yours 'cause that sounds right up my alley.
Charles Vogl: Fantastic.
Judith: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage and clarity.