As an authority in brave leadership, Carol Schulte has been featured in numerous magazines and podcasts and is a returning guest expert on Rogers TV in Canada. She is committed to getting you out of your comfort zone and into your “brave zone,” where you show up more powerfully, and get into action long before you feel ready. In this episode, we discuss how being vulnerable can be an essential skill for a leader in uncertain times while staying strong and authentic by reaching out to your people and supporting them.
Carol is a published author and founder of The BRĀV Institute, educating, empowering, and entertaining audiences internationally for almost a decade. She holds a BFA in Theatre Performance, an MA in Communication, two postgraduate certificates in coaching and mentoring, and has worked with numerous Fortune 500 companies, international associations, and thousands of individuals “to get their brave on.”
Whether it be asking for a raise or promotion, nailing a presentation, or climbing Africa’s highest peak, her clients attribute her insights and inspiration to achieving what they never thought possible. Having lived and worked in 16 countries, including Ashrams in India and vans in New Zealand, rocked dreadlocks in Thailand, and shaved her head for breast cancer, she certainly walks her talk and brings a global perspective to all that she does. When she’s not traveling or speaking on stage, you can find her volunteering as a bereavement facilitator, training for her next triathlon, or practicing her serious carpool karaoke game.
Carol talks about the importance of our willingness to go with the flow and to try new things before knowing they would work. She emphasizes how “experiential leadership” makes much sense in our current situation because it is new to everybody, but we have to take action and figure out as we go. She shares creative ways that work for her company, such as having “brave happy hours” where people connect on a more personal level and share resources.
If you’re interested to know how to build and maintain your people’s trust and loyalty during these times of crisis and be the leader that they want to go through this journey with, then this episode is for you!
Find out more about Carol on her website: www.thebraveinstitute.com
Connect with her on Facebook: http://facebook.com/carolschultespage/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolschulte/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/carolschulte_/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/carolschulte_
- [Narrator] Welcome to Leading Through Crisis a conversation series, exploring the idea of leadership in challenging times.
- [Celine] Hi, welcome to Leading Through Crisis. I'm Celine Williams and I'm here today with Carol Schulte. Carol is a professional speaker and founder of The Brav Institute for Leaders. She empowers audiences internationally to get their brav on. Welcome, Carol. It's nice to have.
- Thank you. It's nice to be here.
- [Celine] So I wanna start by asking what the Brav Institute for leaders is 'Cause I think that's an awesome name.
- Thank you. So it's basically a place where leaders can come to get all the training they need to work professionally and personally to make sure they're stepping into the bravest part of themselves. So we focus on all the leadership capabilities that you need to really succeed, communication, relationship building, executive presence, negotiation presentation skills. And then at the same time, we also work on who you are. Are you working in alignment with your values, so that you can have a strong vision, know who you are and be able to really inspire, empower and motivate your teams.
- [Celine] I'm gonna ask this question as well. So when you say you empower leaders to get their brav on what is that? What does getting your brav on mean?
- So a lot of people talk about the importance of getting out of your comfort zone and especially for leaders, I think especially the ones who are, making a real impact are doing that on a regular basis because you can't do it like everyone else. And I think the majority of people live in their comfort zone, or they work from a place of wanting to do it the right way, whatever that is, or according to other people's beliefs and definitions of what it means to be a leader. And so we define not just the importance of getting out of your comfort zone, but getting in your brav zone and getting your brav on is basically your willingness to get into action long before you feel ready because you're choosing to feel ready enough. So a lot of people wait for the right time to come until they feel good enough, until all their ducks are in a row or the perfect moment just magically arrives and you and I both know that that never happens. And so it's about building that brav muscle and taking action before you feel ready. So we do a lot of training and speaking, but with that, we do experiential events because when you're actually putting it into action, even if it's in an area where you don't necessarily think you want to be braver in, it's contagious. So the more you do, the more you realize, oh, I can do that. What else is possible? So it's basically getting you into brav zone on a regular basis.
- [Celine] So this feels super relevant right now with everything that in our, I mean, we're having this conversation during the quote unquote pandemic. And the point of these conversation is whether pandemic or not is the idea of Leading Through Crisis 'cause crisis comes in all sorts of different forms, right? Challenges happen. It doesn't have to look the way it looks right now. And this feels very relevant in the sense that everyone, every leader, right now is out of their comfort zone in some way, shape or form.
- [Carol] Totally. Yeah, absolutely.
- [Celine] But I truly don't think there's an exception to this because this was not, no one knew this was happening and like most things we don't know what change is gonna look like. We don't know what challenges are gonna look like. So I ask this for the leaders that are listening and might find it helpful. How can they manage being out of their comfort zone? What are some tips or tricks or thoughts you have for them in navigating times like this?
- Great question. I think the first thing is just to acknowledge 'cause you're bang on. Everyone is out of their comfort zone, 'cause we've never been here before. And so we're figuring out as we go. And I think one of the things is you have to be willing to go with the flow and realize that there's no secret formula. There's no magic way to do it. And every leader, depending on their situation is gonna be doing it different. But I think they have to be able to trust their instinct and be able to make decisions and figure it out as they go. I think a lot of people are kind of waiting to know what's right. And I think it's a time where we have to just trust our guts and also look to our people, really look to the organization and who's there and comfort them first and foremost. And I know that I'm sure if all of us think of the capacity or the capabilities characteristics that make up a great leader, one of the ones that everyone always says is to have a strong vision. And I think vision is very important, but I also think at this time it's okay to sort of feel it out what our people need and really take the time to think about who we wanna be and what our organization is gonna look like coming out of this. And I read this really great article in Harvard Business Review, and they talked about this idea of holding and leaders who have the ability to hold and to make decisions strategically and to connect with their people and be in the present moment, instead of just let's get through this when we're at the end, when we can get to where we are. And I think, yes, a vision is important, but especially in times of crisis and challenge, you have to be real with where you are now and make sure you address that first and foremost.
- [Celine] Well, and that to me raises a really interesting point, which is that we are, I fully appreciate the idea of a vision and how important it is. I do not wanna undermine that in any way. And it can feel disingenuous when there's so much unknown in times like this, when you are trying to push a vision, when we don't know what things are gonna look like in three months or six months. And this goes, I don't care if you're going through a business merger, if you're going through an acquize, this is real in many different situations when there are a lot of unknowns, it can feel, again disingenuous, just that vision doesn't feel right to people in the organization, especially if you're not With them in the moments of change.
- And I think that's, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I think your people are gonna feel disconnected with you if you're simply living in the future or talking about what it's going to be like. I think if you really wanna build even more trust at this time, which there is the potential to, to have even deeper connection with your people, it's to know that you are there with them. And I think it's a combination of being both vulnerable enough to know, and to be able to be honest with, I don't totally know what the landscape is going to look like, but also be strong enough that they can look to you as someone who is staying calm amidst the chaos. So and I think that's a gentle balance, but one of the important parts of the braze on is to be vulnerable, because I think your people are gonna to trust you so much more if you're real and you meet them where they're at and you're willing to potentially get it wrong, but trusting yourself to take action anyway.
- [Celine] So, I love that. And I did, I think I told you this before, but I did Brené Brown's training on dare to lead a couple of months ago and she talks about vulnerability quite a lot.
- [Carol] She does.
- [Celine] Right. And it's so true. Being vulnerable is such an important skill to have, especially in challenging times. It is the hardest thing to do. It's one of, maybe not the hardest, but it is much harder when things are difficult to remain vulnerable. And from your perspective and from the work that you've done and your experience, what is the balance or how do you find that balance of being vulnerable without oversharing. Creating that panic or building on that negativity? Cause that's not the point of being vulnerable.
- Absolutely not. And there are some people who just kind of self-indulgent and as you said, overshare, because it makes them feel better. But you have to recognize that you're still in a position where a lot of people are going to look up to you. So they want to know that they are working with a real person that has feelings that has emotions, but at the same time, you may have to make sure that you are standing in your power. And as Brené Brown says, there's a lot of power in vulnerability. I would absolutely agree. And you just have to be conscious and cognizant of the fact that it is not about you and overindulging in all of your feelings, it's about being real enough to say, I'm here with you and we're gonna figure this out together because it is an opportunity to connect even deeper, like on a human to human level. But I think it's paired with the other things too. So the be in the brav zone is being bold. Like you have to be bold enough to have different ideas, especially in times of crisis, you have to think outside of the box, you have to be more creative. You have to consider things in different ways than perhaps you ever haven't before. And you have to be willing to try things before you know if they're going to work or not. And then the art is about being resilient. If it doesn't work okay, how can we shift or how can we pivot instead of focusing on what didn't work and staying there. It's okay, let's try something else. A is authentic. So you have to be authentic to who you are and authentic to what your organization is all about. And I know there are some leaders and some businesses and individual entrepreneurs that I've seen totally shift and pivot and change what they're all about. And I don't think that's gonna serve you in the longterm at all. And then vulnerability, of course. And then finally, this is an interesting one is experiential. And now more than ever, this makes so much sense because there is no right way or wrong way to do it. There's no good or bad or success or failure. It's about willing to jump in and figure it out as you go. And recognizing that taking action is the win. And you're only going to gain more clarity once you start doing things, not sitting in this place of overthinking and ruminating and strategizing, you got to get into the arena. And as Brené Brown would say, and do.
- [Celine] Hundred percent. So, one of the things that comes to mind, as you're saying all of this, and you were talking, the idea of pivoting is there's a lot of talk out there right now, whether it is in the entrepreneur world, in larger organizations, it's all over the place around the idea of pivoting. And in my opinion, it is very overused when things get tough, because there is a, so I tend to, I like the language of design thinking, which is that you take an idea, you do all the work to figure out if it's the best idea, you test that idea. You take that data that you get from testing the idea, and then you adjust and adapt. And to me that is much more of what needs to be happening is that adjusting and adapting and learning from what is, or isn't working rather than pivoting, which implies just like great wipe that all and let's do something new entirely, which doesn't really line up with what you're talking about with regards to authenticity.
- Right. And I also think, I mean, there's a way to pivot in our perception or perspectives and our thinking, but to all of a sudden, as you said throw in what you're trying out to switch. I kind of feel like that often comes from a place of fear or scarcity or worry and decisions based on fear typically are never the right ones. And so, I think we're all going through challenging times, but those who are gonna come out, I believe on top are ones who maybe shift some of their ways they're doing really address what's happening now, but also we're in it for the long game because people who pivot when that's not who they are, they're not in alignment with their values they're not being authentic. Chances are, it may or may not work, or it's not gonna work longer term because if it's not who you are, what you're passionate about or what you're really good at, then how's it gonna serve you or your people. So I agree and I felt the pressure too, because there's a lot of speakers who are pivoting and all of a sudden they're an expert on, whatever. And that doesn't, it doesn't sit well with me. So I think we have to be careful with this. And I get that we all have to make sure that we're paying our bills and businesses have to stay afloat, I get that, but I think we're gonna be stronger if we stick to who we are and what we do well, and maybe just shift the ways of delivery or the vehicles, or some of our strategy around that.
- [Celine] It totally makes sense. And you said something in there that I wanna dig into a little bit. You said that people seem to be making these decisions out of fear or scarcity. So it is easy when you're on the outside in my experience, it's easy when you're on the outside of that to be like, oh, that person is driven by fear or scarcity. You can see it when you're looking outside looking in. When you're inside of a situation, how can you check to see if what you're doing is coming from that place of fear or scarcity versus coming from a place of trusting or abundance or whatever language you wanna use instead,
- I think you just have to continue to ask yourself and to be willing to be uncomfortable with those feelings to figure out, okay, what's really beneath there. And I think asking yourself the same question, like why and why, and what does this mean? I think in our day to day lives, we're so busy going from one thing to the next, we don't actually have the time or the space to actually connect inwards. And I think now is an amazing opportunity to go a little inwards and not necessarily to be woo-woo but I think being able to listen to that voice that's in all of us and to trust our intuition and guts. I think if we're really honest with ourselves, we can figure out if it's coming from a place of fear or it's coming from a place of belief and faith. And as you said, design thinking is all about going toward something. And I think fear is wanting to avoid something or kind of cover up that anxiety, as opposed to getting excited about new and creative ways we can do this and how we wanna come out of this successfully, whatever that looks like for us.
- [Celine] I agree with you. I think that this is a really interesting time to go inward, especially, I mean this is a very unique time of crisis in that we are isolated in our own. So it is especially unique and especially conducive to doing some of that in our work. And I think that I would challenge people who are avoiding doing that in our work, even while they have this sort of time and space and are more isolated. To ask whether they're avoiding it because of fear, because that may be the fear itself, right? Is not knowing what's gonna happen next, not knowing what that outcome looks like.
- [Carol] Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree a hundred percent.
- [Celine] So how are you managing all of these changes and how, as someone who works in this world of leadership and speaks about leadership, what are some of the things that are working really well for you right now?
- Good question. So reaching out to all of my clients, all of my people, all of my communities and checking in with them on a personal level. I've been sending a lot of personal videos and saying, hey, thinking of you, I'm here. What's working, what's not, how can I support you? And then I've been conducting brave happy hours every week with the various industries to bring people together from different companies and organizations to open up the conversation and ask them what's working in their organization, what's not. Allowing people to connect to know A they're not alone. And B to be able to share resources and really support so that we can all benefit from what we're experimenting and looking in our organizations. So that's another thing that's working. And then for me personally, I've been doing a lot more videos. I write a blog and I do other resources, but I think videos can touch people in a different way and addressing what's really happening. So through a lot of conversations and interviews, figuring out where are the challenges and how I can support. And then for me personally, because I'm on my own in my own place, connecting with friends and family on a regular basis, really making sure I'm have as much of a routine as possible, which sometimes a bit of a bit of a challenge, but like working out, working on my mental game. Having regular dance breaks, connecting with people as I said. And just taking a moment to breathe every once in a while and just slow down. I think there's so many amazing resources and courses and webinars and summits and all this stuff that's happening, which is amazing. And it's also overwhelming, even though we have so much more time allegedly, we can also fill up our days with all of this information overload. And I think we need to trust that we will learn what we need to learn, where we need to learn it. And before we consume too much stuff, we have to get clear on where we are, what we need right now.
- [Celine] I love that you brought up that there's so much stuff happening 'cause I could not agree more. It says Monday and I was supposed to have a call with somebody yesterday, a zoom call and I canceled it an hour before I was like, I'm exhausted. I've had not had a day, not being on a Zoom call in over two weeks at that point. And I was like, I just need to not be on Zoom today. I'm really sorry. There's just so much. And I think your point is valid that it's okay to one, do the things you need to do to feel good, whatever that is, to feel connected and two say no to things as well.
- Absolutely. And I think that also stems from this place again of like, oh gosh, when we're in crisis mode and out of fear, we think we need to do this and do that and do that instead of actually just taking a moment to be like, okay, I'm okay and what do I need now? And if you consider Maslow's hierarchy of need, especially at a time like this, we have to make sure that our lowest needs are met before we can think about what's next. And if we try and jump to, oh, I've gotta do this and that, and we're not serving ourselves or people.
- [Celine] Yeah, I agree. So I wanna go back to, you mentioned the brave happy hours that you're doing with organizations and leaders in different places. And are you seeing any trends in terms of what's being talked about or what's coming up there that people are either finding challenging or things that they're doing that are really working in their roles or organizations.
- One of the things that's really working is to have individual check-ins on a regular basis. Whether that's Zoom calls or FaceTime calls and doing things to bring people together so that they feel like they're a part of community. And some companies had some really great ideas, whether or not that's regular, virtual or potlucks or they're doing 30 step challenge or various times of the day, everyone can come online and do a quick stretch break and somebody will choose a song and everybody will just sort of do their thing or a mindful breath of fresh air, which is when at the same time everyone will go outside. So you can still feel like you're connected when you're separate. A lot of people are doing things for their people. So whether or not they'd given all their employees the calm app or there's this really cool resource that they heard about called I think it's positive comms or cam comms it's these messages and affirmations that can be scrolling along the screen of everybody who works in the department or the organization, that just kind of keep people uplifted, which is really neat. And then making sure that there's me time. So some people in certain organizations are maybe less busy or they're not doing as much, people in HR, people who lead teams are almost busier than ever because they have so many people to work about. Sorry, it's to worry about and to work with as opposed to also thinking about the business and strategy and all that. So I think the importance of me time is more important now than, than ever. And then there was one other idea that I lost the train of thought. I'm sure it'll come back to me. But yeah, making sure you take time for you. You work on your mindset, do things to move your body, physically connect with people on a regular basis. And also to lower the expectations a little bit. I know everybody behaves differently in times of crisis and there are some people whose reactions to just work, work, work, and go get into creation mode and put the blinders on. And then there's some people who are having a hard time even in opening up their computer. And so to recognize that everybody deals with it differently and again, as we've said no right or wrong, but to lower expectations of productivity a little bit, especially those who have families at home and dogs and are trying to wear so many different hats at the same time. We can't just expect that it's business as usual. And you're simply working from home, you're staying at home, doing your best to work during a global pandemic. And I think those are two very different things.
- [Celine] Yeah. I could not agree more. And having worked with organizations that are remote, and having worked with organizations that are remote and having worked with organizations prior to this that were remote before this happened. And organizations as they were going remote. That is a really different thing than what is happening now. And I think unfortunately the, what we don't recognize, or we don't talk about enough is that when you go remote in any circumstances, there's a huge learning curve.
- [Carol] Adjustment.
- [Celine] And expectations are one of the biggest things that you have to figure out how to adjust and change. And it's challenging in the best of circumstances where you have this planned out six months in advance. And so recognizing that, that is real even with an ideal situation. And right now this is not ideal because under normal circumstances, you don't have your kids at home with you. You don't have your partner at home with you. You don't have everything like this is not a, we're setting up a home office in advance for you to be able to do this. And so I think that your point about adjusting expectations and possibly lowering them as well and letting there be some, for me, my thing is always set clear outcomes. Have that conversation. This is what the expectation is. Here's what the outcome needs to look like. And then as long as people are agreeing to it, and yes, I can do that and that seems realistic. Let them do it when they're gonna do it. Right? Let go of the expectation of the expectation has to look a certain way.
- Absolutely. Yeah, you're right. And I also think it needs to be almost done individually because everyone's situations is unique and personalities are different and how people react. And so I really think, a great leader knows their, knows their people and knows what's going to work for them. And there may be having to be some adjustments based on that also. So that you really, set yourself up for success. And I do think it's, we've been forced to go remote really, really quickly and patient with figuring out technology. And that as you said, adjustment period is really, really important. And if we try and rush into it without actually setting our people up for their greatest success, we're going to lose productivity the more so in the long run. So to take the time that you need to ask them what they need, what kind of training, what kind of resources would help them? That's when you're really gonna maximize and make the most out of this challenging situation.
- [Celine] I agree. And I think that the point of doing this individually is really important. And I don't wanna skip over that because everyone communicates differently. Everyone has a different story. Everyone has a different situation. And to assume that you can create a blanket expectation or a blanket rules of engagement right now, I am a person that the work that I do, I don't think you can do that ever. I think that you create I always talk about a sandbox. You create culture sandbox. This is what it looks like. And then everyone has to play in that in their own way, whether they want to build a sand castle or they wanna just . But it's the inside that sandbox. And I think now more than ever having those individual conversations, having that individual understanding of what you need, how you're showing up, what your situation is, Is more important. And often the thing that in the rush to figure out what we're doing day to day in a difficult time, we skip entirely. We just feel let's make some rules and everyone's gonna follow these rules and it doesn't, it's not, I have not seen it be super successful.
- No. And I think that goes also back to this idea of holding and yes we need to make decisions and be ready to take action. But if you do it too quickly, then you're ignoring your most important asset, which really is your people. And I know you agree with that also. And when you do take the time to figure out what individuals need they again, feel more connected to you. They're gonna trust you more. They're gonna wanna put in the extra time and effort to figure it out. And you're gonna build loyalty over the longterm also. So I think to really focus on how you can care and support and nurture the individuals on your team and in your organization is time and effort very well spent.
- [Celine] I'd agree. And I would say that a lot of that, and this is what I like about The Brav Institute is lot of that starts with self leadership. Like you have to know what you need before you can't give. I don't remember. Maybe it's Romy who talks about life may have just thrown out a random name, light up the room and nobody call me on this. But the idea of you can't give from an empty cup. You have to fill your cup before you can give anyone else anything. And especially servant leaders in my experience in times like this, they're so quick to want to show up for other people that they haven't actually thought about or taking the time to look at what they need or what would work for them.
- Yeah, absolutely. And I think we do focus a lot on the individual because it does start with you and you have to constantly be working on yourself. And it's not as if, once you figure out what it means to be brave and you're all set no, every every day you have to put it into practice. And especially at a time like this it's something that you choose every day to get your brav on, and it does have to start with you, which is sometimes sometimes challenging for sure, but that's where the real growth happens. And that's where you can be an amazing role model to, to everybody around you and those that you work with.
- [Celine] And I would guess it's quite uncomfortable for a lot of people to have to take that time, I mean, I know leaders who would tell you that they wouldn't even know where to start with that. Like, I don't know what, it's not how I work. I'm always about other people. I serve people first.
- Yeah. And that will eventually lead to burnout and resentment and again, not being strong enough to see it through the tough times. People are not very good with sitting with their themselves and within their own feelings. And again, especially when the pace is so quick and you can be strategic and you can think about what your company needs, but especially at the time where it really is about coming together as a community and seeing people, they have to see you being a human and anybody who is actually going through this experience cannot not be affected. And it's like and if you're just go, go, go, then you're taking out the human element. So it doesn't make sense. Anyone who's not being affected right now. I mean, I don't think that there could be anyone who isn't, but if they are, perhaps they're not taking the time to process to get real with themselves,
- [Celine] I would agree. And I think that there are, I think there are some people who will tell you that everything's fine, or they're not being affected or they're glossing over that. Right?
- [Carol] Yeah.
- [Celine] Without really thinking about, without doing that deeper work to look at what's really going on. 'Cause that's challenging.
- It is. And I think that's where the vulnerability comes in. And again, it's a fine line between saying, I have no idea what's going on. Oh my God. Like I'm totally depressed and I see no future in this company. And yeah, I'm definitely experiencing the highs and the lows, the ups and downs I get, you must be as well. So let's work together. We've got a plan we're gonna figure out how to go and to be willing to not have it all figured out. To be willing to feel what you're feeling without breaking down in front of people. So if you need to have a moment, have your support team outside of the office where you can really get real and break down if you need to. But you can still be real in front of your team and be strong. And I think it's that balance of being vulnerable yet strong, where people are really gonna look to you as someone who they can trust, they can feel safe with, they can feel comfortable with that they wanna be on this journey with.
- [Celine] I couldn't agree more. I wanna be mindful of time. So I always like to wrap these by asking this question, which is, is there anything that you wanna emphasize inside of what you've said or that you want to leave people with at the end of this conversation for them to take away?
- There's no right or wrong way. Clarity comes from action and we're not simply working from home. We are staying at home doing our best to work during a global pandemic. So maybe we need to give ourselves some grace and compassion.
- [ Celine] Well, and I would agree with that. And I would say, I hope people take that whether or not it's a global pandemic, give yourself grace either way. 'Cause I totally agree with that. And I think it's a really powerful way to end this conversation. So there'll be some links for Carol's website in the show notes and to her how brave are you quiz? And there, she has a brave audit as well. So you can find that all in the notes after the show. And I wanna thank you for taking the time to chat with me Carol.
- Thank you so much for having me. It's been a fun conversation. I think what you're doing is awesome.
- [Celine] Thank you. I appreciate that. Have a wonderful rest of your day.
- You too, bye everyone.
- [Narrator] Thanks for listening to us talk around leadership in challenging times. If you would like to learn more about us or any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca. If you like the show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts from.