It's a job seeker's market right now, making it so important to care for your employees and create a culture in which everyone thrives. Today's guest is Dr. Beverly Kaye--a leading expert on career development, employee engagement and retention.
Many companies are currently struggling with attracting, onboarding, and retaining talent. But, there are so many things you can do to encourage people to stay, as opposed to letting them leave for the competition.
Listen in as we discuss:
- Why there is a talent crisis, as well as what to do about it
- "Leaving the key under the mat" or facilitating an "elegant exit" when people go
- Company culture baselines
- How managers impact employee wellness
- How to help people to grow where they are
- And, perhaps most importantly, the value of RECOGNIZE, VERBALIZE, MOBILIZE for leaders.
Implementing some of these strategies can be an absolute game-changer for yourself, your business, and your people!
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To learn more about Bev Kaye you can find her online at bevkaye.com. As well as on LinkedIn (bevkaye) and Twitter (BeverlyLKaye).
- I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Dr. Beverly Kaye, who is recognized as one of the most knowledgeable professionals in career development, employee engagement and retention. In 2018, she received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Association for Talent Development. Beverly's books include "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em" and "Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go," and "Up is Not the Only Way." Thank you for joining me today.
You are welcome.
I'm very excited for this conversation. I love the names of your books. Just gonna acknowledge that right upfront. All very fun titles, I'm excited to talk to you about all of the things. So the place where I usually like to start in these conversations is to ask the, you know, big, broad question, and that is when you hear the title of this podcast, "Leading Through Crisis," the concept of leading through crisis or leading through challenging times, what comes up for you? What does that mean for you, if anything?
I think immediately for me, for the work I do, it is a talent crisis like we have never seen. Now I'll bet at every point of talent crises, and there've been many, someone says that, but here we are with job hopping and retention, and not enough talent to go around, and new skill development. So if ever there's been a need for leaders to get their arms around their talent and let their talent know they are precious, I think it's now. And talent needs to hear that from their managers.
So I love this because I feel like this conversation comes up in so much of the work that I do with leaders around, you know, it's a job seeker's market right now, which means that, you know, which means that they are losing people and struggling to hire. So it's both sides of it, right? They are struggling with retention because of other job options or offers or whatever, and struggling to hire because there's so much out there.
Absolutely.
So I'm curious, I mean I have a thousand questions inside of this, but I'd love for you to share a little bit about what you see some of the trends are, or why this might be happening, or what's happening, inside this bigger picture of retention and the challenges with retention, and the challenges with bringing people on. Because I think that's important for leadership to be aware of as well.
Right, there's so much. On the last piece of your sentence, bringing people on.
Yeah.
I think it's a whole new world now, in bringing people on, because on means I might want you for a particular position, but I also want you to stay in our organization. Let us put our arms around you so that before you leave for the competition, you realize that there are many opportunities right here right now. So managers have to learn that, and employees have to learn that. And I'm not sure either group is as aware of what lies within these boundaries. So the career piece is one thing that's pushing this. The other is that now there are so many choices, that the grass looks greener there. And sometimes I don't even look there to see is it greener grass or AstroTurf?
Yeah.
And I leave too soon. And in my research, you know, I talk about the Pied Piper effect. Like one goes, others follow.
Yeah.
And nowadays, I'm jumping all over.
No I love it!
Nowadays I talk to managers about how are you saying goodbye to those you lose? Are you saying goodbye with an invitation, call me if it doesn't work? You know, my door is open, I wanna hear from you. Or are you saying okay, last that one, next? So there's so much change in people's mindsets, and maybe it isn't just skillset, it's mindset as well. I just wrote an article for a journal about attitude and aptitude, and how important attitude is to give me more openings. So it's a circus, sometimes. Three ring.
Yeah.
And you've gotta keep your eye on the ball.
Yeah. So there's a lot in that that I love. I love this idea, like truthfully, I love this idea of it's not just skillset it's mindset. I think that that is super important. Same with attitude and aptitude. I think that, you know, I think those concepts are really important for us to keep in mind. And one of the things that came up for me when you were saying like how are you saying goodbye to people as they leave their company? And, you know, I'd love your perspective on this. I talk to leaders and I talk about, this is not a me thing, I did not come up with this. But I often am advocating for this idea of off-boarding. Just like we onboard people, how are we off-boarding them? How are we leaving that door open, leaving them with a positive experience, even if they do decide to leave, whether it's voluntarily or not, we can make this a positive experience. Change does not have to be this horrible, burn all the bridges,
throw everything,
Absolutely.
or the baby out with the bath water, right.
Absolutely. And now the research on boomerangs is growing, and smart companies reach out, and smart companies say how are you doing? And, you know, in the book "Up is Not the Only Way," one of the six moves I talk about is called relocation. And the truth is, people are gonna leave, despite the opportunities. And it's how you say goodbye. It's how you say goodbye that gets you a respectful return. And you want that. And you want to, I know there's so much on everybody's plate, but you wanna care about your alumni, 'cause they are great spokespeople for your organization, if you've treated them right.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, I very obviously agree with that. And it's funny 'cause it's one of the things that I often say when I talk about creating like leadership development, right, is that if you are encouraging, empowering whatever, leaders and people to be leaders and they leave, then they are your biggest advocates out of the, they don't have to work for your company to send people to your company. If they're telling other people, they're advocating for how great their experience was, look at all that they learned, and that when they had this great opportunity somewhere else that just wasn't available inside your company in the moment, and you like gave them the platform to go fly there and explore that opportunity, they're now gonna advocate for you to the ends of the earth.
Right. You know, I'm writing ideas down for other articles as we talk. One, a chapter in Up is Not suggests you leave the key under the mat. And the image is a welcome mat, a door, and is the key there. And that's something managers have to think about. And I should write an article with that title and use that material.
Absolutely. I think it's a concept that traditionally, I'm not saying people don't, but traditionally that's not how we think of leaving a job.
Right. Right. And I talk about an elegant exit to get you a respectful return. So I guess I'm in love with words. And if I can figure out a word combo that sticks in people's minds. Like for a leader, was that an elegant exit?
Yeah.
Or did I say goodbye?
Yeah.
In the old days we'd lock the door.
100%. Escort people out.
Right, right.
You'd escort people out.
And it was you traitor, you left.
Yep.
And now it is, you know, we're sorry you left. I'll re-board you any day.
Yeah.
Right.
So I'm curious from your perspective, and maybe your research, maybe your experience, whatever it is, but what is holding people back? What is holding leaders back, but also people who leave, from having that elegant exit? Like what is the, what are sort of the things that prevent that from happening?
I think one, I think they're all understandable. On the manager side, I am up to here in a way I have not been up to here in the past.
Right.
So I'm doing an exit interview. Let me just get this done. Let me just fill out the forms. And there's plenty of talent out there. Now when you have that attitude, there's plenty of talent out there, people sniff it, smell it, feel it. And I think a lot of managers have that attitude. You know, I remember one case study about a manager who said when someone left, well no big deal, plenty of talent out there, the word got out around this one employee that everybody in the department loved, and three people left because of that sentence that said I don't value X.
Yeah.
So I think one part of it is we're in a rush, like never before. Let's just get this done. The other is, I don't, as a manager, I don't think of someone may be coming back. So I don't say the right words, you know. And the individual needs to say the right words about their exit, also. You know, I'll share one more exit story. In "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em," the book is written, according to the alphabet, A through Z, as you would say, and we collected a ton of data about why people leave. And then we read exit interviews and we, people who left, we followed the person to the next job, and we said we see what you wrote here. Why did you really leave? And they said, I left because my boss was a jerk, in so many ways. And I couldn't stand it anymore. So J in the alphabet, in the book, is for jerk. Are you one?
Yeah.
And we collected 55 jerkotudinal characteristics that people actually said. And it's like, those are the real reasons. So is the organization coaching or canning those jerks? And often, if the jerk manager brings in dollars, then I don't wanna coach them or can them. Let 'em just keep doing it.
Yeah.
So all those reasons.
So what you just said brings something really specific to mind. I talk about, I do a lot of work in culture and I often say, and I'm not, I didn't coin this, I just don't remember who spoke about it first. But I often repeat the thing that I heard, which was this idea that your culture is basically the, your culture can be summed up in the worst behavior that you allow to continue in your culture.
That's great. That's great.
And what you are, what that list, and I'm totally gonna have to look at the list of the jerkotudinal behaviors, because when you have someone that you are neither coaching nor canning, you are basically saying this is the behavior we are accepting as our baseline of culture, as our baseline across the board. And there's no reason for someone, when they have options, and there's always options, to continue to work for another person who behaves that way, whatever that is. And I think that, you know, to me this ties so directly into people's experience of culture. And if they see it in one person, they're gonna expect it in other people, and that, that is a ripple effect in your organization, whatever size it is.
Right, right. And your statement reminds me of the big emphasis now on employee wellbeing. And in my own research, because the W chapter in Love 'Em is for wellness. Employee wellbeing, a lot depends on the manager.
Yeah.
I mean, the data out there in the health field is saying managers make people sick. And I don't think any manager wakes up and says how could I make my people sick today?
Yeah.
But in our own rush rush, in our own pile of stuff to do, we often say things, or don't say things, that are like a knife in the heart of a great person.
Yeah. I think that's really heartbreaking to hear that managers make people sick, and it's also not surprising, right, what we know of how much of our health comes from stress, or comes from, you know, I'm gonna say stress again 'cause I, emotional labor, whatever the case may be. If you're in a situation where a lot of that feels like, whether it is true or not, but feels like it's coming from your boss, then of course your manager is gonna be contributing significantly to your experience of wellness or lack thereof.
Right. Right. And you know, it's not like there's a course you have to take and study and memorize. It's, you know, be nice! You know, I remember, Love 'Em is 20 years old, and when it first came out I was giving a speech somewhere and a high-level manager was greeting his hundred people and introduced me by saying "Everything Beverly's gonna tell you, you already know." And I thought I'm gonna die. And then he said, because your mother taught it to you, when she said play nice in the sandbox. And I thought, it's right.
Yeah.
So it's the knowing doing gap.
Yep.
That is the issue.
Yeah.
I know it, like of course I know it, but do I do it? I don't know.
And I think that kindness is a place where we often know the experience of kindness and we know we should be kind, and the minute our emotions get the better of us, for a lot of people that goes out the window and you're like I can't be kind, I can only protect me and whatever that looks like. And that to me, and I'd love your perspective on it, but that's where that knowing doing gap, I see it the most.
Right, right, right. And kindness again, it's like, we grew up having that message, and we need reminders, you know. Just like, you know, one of my specialties is the world of career development. And we often will ask leaders are you developing your people? And they say, yes, yes, yes. And then we ask the person, are you being developed? No, no, no. And part of it is you're always being developed. It's that no one says that was good development. Did you get it?
Right.
That's why you got that assignment. And voices don't remember to say that either.
Yeah.
You know, one time in a session I gave, I gave people little flags that said that was development. Wave when managers did it, like that was development.
Yeah.
It goes right by us.
Yeah. And I think especially in organizations that have a lot of coaching conversations, coaching type things built in, it's very easy to become blind to just how much development is actually happening, because it is, it starts to become part and parcel of the culture, which by the way is amazing. I fully encourage, I don't wanna, but it does mean that unless it's a formal development situation, people don't even think of things as development anymore.
Right. And they translate, the individual translates development as either taking a course or moving out of where I am, into something else. And we forget that a big part of what I've always talked about, development, is job enrichment. It's an old ancient word, but it means grow where you are. And if you don't have the grow where you are attitude, as an individual, like shame on you.
Yeah. So can you, I love the language of job enrichment, by the way, and this idea of grow where you are. Can you tell me a little bit about what that could mean or could look like for someone to, whether it's they're thinking, oh, I don't know if I do that, or how can I work on that, or what is that exactly?
So for the individual who says there's nowhere to move in this organization and refuses to look, the easiest question could be, and I ask it sometimes for fun, like if you were given a sabbatical, which people don't give lightly, to study anything you want that would grow you right where you are and prep you for one of several future moves, what would you study? Sabbatical, you can go do it. It gets people to think about, well what's my next learning adventure.
Yeah.
'Cause that's a big part of, you know, growing where you are. What do you need to learn for this job, as well as for others? And another big part is what could I teach someone else, you know, 'cause in teaching, for many of us, we get a thrill. So what is it, maybe an exchange with a peer. Show me how you do those graphics and I'll show you how I do that, you know, whatever, computer piece thing.
Yep.
So it's all of that, that how do you make things simple? And maybe that's what my calling has been all these years, 'cause all my books, you mentioned the titles. You know I want the title to say it all. So you see a book with the title "Up is Not the Only Way," oh, got it. Or "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em." Oh got it.
Yeah.
So that's what I try to do.
But it's wonderful because it's memorable and I, you know, we remember things that are simple, we never remember things that are super complicated. So the simplicity is really the magic because that's what's gonna stand out. And, I think, you know, so I have not read "Up is Not the Only Way," and I hear that and I, I will, I promise. But I hear it and I immediately think that to me is really interesting because I think, and this is my personal opinion, not everyone who listens or watches this has to agree, including yourself, but I think that we have a really crappy system in place when it comes to promotions and how people move through an organization in general. I think the way that we reward people is very flawed, and people end up in roles that they don't really wanna be doing, with responsibility that they don't really want to have, that doesn't necessarily suit their skillset or mindset, but there's no other way to reward them, and so that's just, we just keep doing it this way.
So I wrote the first edition of "Up is Not the Only Way" in 1982.
Wow!
And I've been yelling it from mountaintops. And now I see people talking about internal talent mobility, and I wanna say duh, you know, like, and we've gotta change it, you're right. We've gotta change it by the way we compensate.
Mm-hmm, yes.
And absolutely, I wrote an article on compensating for other than Up.
Yeah.
Also years ago. And that article got an award from the American Compensation Association, which I have no idea of the details of compensation, but I didn't see anybody pick up on it. Maybe now. Maybe now.
I mean, I do think there are more companies picking up on that idea now. I think a lot of it's coming from tech where they're saying, you know, I think, I mean selfishly, but I think they're seeing people who are like let's say really phenomenal programmers, that they wanna retain, and so rather than saying now you have to manage other programmers, and they're like that sounds like hell, I don't want that, they're able to provide them more compensation, more flexibility. And I think that's where I see it happening. Not only, but more than anywhere else is situations like that.
Tech.
But right, but it makes me hopeful because that model does work and it's, you retain people better, people excel. It's not like you're paying more money for, I mean, you're keeping the people that know what you're doing there. It makes me hopeful that we'll see more of this outside of tech and outside of programming type jobs. I just pick on the really technical jobs, 'cause that's where I see it the most, I'm not saying it's the truth. But because I think there's a huge opportunity in general to really empower and enable people to be doing something that they're great at and they love, and keep them, you know, keep them in the organization that they wanna be at.
Right. Right. And you know, I'll put in a plug that the book "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em," we've been teaching for 20 years globally, and now the sixth edition came out and I'm working with a colleague to make the training, the education, work for IT people.
I love that.
Tech people. And so we're totally saying this is not just for anybody. This is for you. And I have an IT colleague who's helping us do that. And it dawned on me, I should look at vertical markets for that. Healthcare. Oh my heavens, is there ever a crisis in healthcare?
Yeah.
So definitely.
Absolutely. I'm gonna ask this question since you brought it up. Is there, the training that you're talking about, is there someplace that anyone who's watching or listening can go to learn more about those offerings that you have?
Right. Come to bevkaye.com. That easy. Send an email and I'm glad to connect them.
And we will have all that information in the show notes obviously, but since you were just talking about it, if someone is like oh, I'd be really interested in that training, I thought, well what a perfect place to say bevkaye.com is where that would go. Bev, I feel like I could talk to you for the next six hours. You are lovely and the work that you're doing is, I mean fascinating, and obviously I get very excited about these topics. But before we wrap up I wanted to ask you, is there anything that you wanna emphasize or add that we didn't get to, that you think would be really important to wrap this up?
You know, one tiny idea is if you wanna keep people, if you wanna keep good people and grow them, take note. Notice what they enjoy and what they don't. And it's written on their faces and in their behavior. Take note and ask. You know, somewhere I wrote an article that said it's all about recognize, hmm. Celine doesn't look very happy today, I wonder what's going on. Recognize, verbalize. You know, is it that report that's got you down? And then mobilize. Ah, it wasn't the report, it was. Mobilize, do something about it. So recognize, verbalize, mobilize. And I should make that my next book.
You should. But, and truthfully you should, because I think a lot of people recognize, elite leaders especially will recognize, they'll be like, oh there's something up with Bev. Or there's something up with that person. And they never get to the verbalize stage. And if that small percentage do, they never get beyond it because they're like oh well I checked in, so everything's fine. Right, so I think that's really valuable because I don't think, I think the biggest gap, my experience, is between recognizing and verbalizing, because they don't.
I think so too.
Right, like how do you cross that, let alone mobilize.
Right, right. We'll write that book.
I'm in. 100% in. But I think that's really valuable, and I love that you've left, that, you know, that's kind of the thought that we're leaving people with, because if we can remember to recognize and verbalize and mobilize as leaders, that's a game changer for recognizing the people around us, making them feel included and understood and all those things that we want, in the organizations that we're building today.
I'm reminding myself.
You are delightful and I'm so grateful for you for coming on my show and chatting with me. I'm gonna encourage everyone to go read your books, buy your books, read your books. "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em" is, sixth edition is out, which is incredible. So, so many important concepts, and I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today. It's been wonderful and I wish you the very best of luck in the rest of this half pandemic year.
Thank you. Thank you.
[Celine] Thanks for joining me today on the "Leading Through Crisis" podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.