In this episode, we explore the difference between excellence and perfectionism, how procrastination is often tied to perfectionism, and what to do if you suspect you might be a perfectionist who is ready to make a change.
“Perfectionism isn’t just something people choose midway through their lives. It’s something that has been with them for the majority of their lives, that’s helped them function or achieve in some way... Perfectionism, initially, gets people where they want to go or has brought them some degree of success.”
Today I am joined by Audrey Holst, a professional coach, whose speciality is transforming perfection.
Perfectionism has its upsides but it's also exhausting and will only get you so far.
This is an especially pertinent topic for leaders right now.
Due to COVID, we are all in a sort of ongoing crisis. We are operating at a lower capacity and with lower patience. But, in order to order to navigate change or a crisis, you need agility, to be able to think on your feet, to experiment and problem-solve--all of which are made more difficult by perfectionist behavior.
In this episode we talk about:
- how to check in with your body and build your awareness
- the difference between excellence and perfectionism
- why procrastination is often tied to perfectionism
- what makes perfectionists great
- how to reorient perfectionism and create habits that will serve you better
“The end results of excellence and perfectionism may look the same… but the impact on the individual is very different, the meaning they take from it is very different.”
Listen in for some tips that may help you or someone you know who struggles with perfectionism and/or procrastination.
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To learn more about Audrey Holst, and to get her guide on the Perfectionist Archetypes, visit https://fortitudeandflow.com/perfectionist/. She is also on Instagram (@fortitudeandflow) and LinkedIn.
- I'm Céline Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis Podcast. A conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Audrey Holst, who guides ambitious high performers and high achievers who are ready to stop micromanaging their lives with perfectionism so they can actually start living. She's the founder of the Fortitude & Flow Process, which fuses mindful and embodied practices to create sustainable transformation. Thanks for joining me today, Audrey.
Thanks for having me.
It's a pleasure. I'm really excited to chat with you about a number of different things. We were chatting before we started recording about perfectionism. So I know we're gonna get into that. And I always start these interviews, conversations by asking the question, the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. So when you hear that, what comes up for you or what does that mean to you?
The first thing that comes to mind is the concept of survival. You know, when I think about crisis, whether it's a personal crisis, which I think we can all relate to what it means to have a personal crisis. Whether it's a collective crisis, which I would say maybe anybody who's listening to this podcast at this period of time is relating to. It's something that kicks up in us, these survival mechanisms. And I think understanding a little bit more about what that means, what that looks like, how survival is different than, sort of intellect, I think would be a really interesting thing to dig into. And it has a lot to do with the stuff that I do on a regular basis also. So crisis and survival, I do not believe that you can talk about either one of them without the other one coming up.
Well, let's start there. Tell me a little bit about what you mean by that then, or about what that survival is, how it is different than the intellect that you were saying, where it comes from, what triggers it. Tell me a little bit about that since it is part and parcel of the work that you do. And I think you're right. I think crisis triggers very specific things in people, and survival's definitely one of them quite often. Any change really.
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is one of the things. So let's talk about the intellect. I'll talk about some basics. And I think it'll help people to wrap their head around what I'm talking about. So there's the intellect, right? Humans are thinking, problems-solving, imaginative beings, right? We have this amazing thinking brain that is always coming up with, I mean, just look at the inventions that humans have come up with, right? It's incredible what our minds can imagine. And we are also mammals, right? We're animals at a very basic level. We've got these physical bodies, we've got nervous systems, we've got all these nerves running through our bodies. We've got all of these chemical reactions that are happening inside of us all of the time. And intellect is something that is really highly valued in our society, right? And it's highly valued in professional settings, high thinking concepts. And I think what can really become a disservice at some point is when you're using your brain and you're doing your thinking, and you're thinking about these concepts, we can forget about what happens from the neck down. Which is actually something that is steering us through the world on a regular basis. And when stuff like crisis hits, and we are trying to think our way out of the crisis, there's a whole other thing that's happening from the neck down, right? These survival mechanisms that can kick up. And there's all different ways that people react to crisis, right? There's different ways that survival can come up. There's different strategies. And a lot of these things are unconscious. It's not like we choose our survival tactics. It's wired. It's in us in a way that has served us in our life. In whatever way that is. So I think that if people can start to connect even if they're listening to this podcast. Start to just connect with the fact that they are a physical being on a physical planet. And that is something you can't outthink. You can't outthink your physical body. That is gonna really start to be a starting point where people can manage and navigate crisis in a different way where they feel actually a little bit less out of control. And we can talk all about that too.
It makes me think of, and please correct me if what I'm about to say, you're like, "That is a whole different things." That's totally fair. I'm fine with being wrong and corrected, just to be very clear. But what it makes me think of is that idea of changing your state when you are triggered, reactive, upset, whatever, dealing with an unknown, the idea of instead of trying to think about it nonstop or focus on it, or look at all the options, which is ultimately, it's nothing wrong with some of those things at a certain point in time. But in that moment, if you get up and you go for a walk, you change your physical state. That's what I mean about when I say change your state. You get up and you go for a walk, you take deep breaths. Like there's all these like change your state things that I know that I talk about with people and I'm sure you do as well. But that's what it makes me think of is like, this is why changing your state is such a simple but effective tip, tactic, thing to try in those moments.
Absolutely. Yeah. It exactly points to the mechanisms that I'm talking about, right? Yeah. And I think just noticing and admitting that there is a state. That there are states you're starting to notice. That's the number one thing when I start working with people is just noticing that something exists. You know, a state that I existed with for a long time, completely unaware that it was actually reality in my life, was anxiety. I was somebody that dealt with a really high level of anxiety, and I had absolutely no idea that it was happening. It was just so embodied and so ingrained and so part of my day that I was making up all sorts of stories about who I was as a person or how I was with people. I would have anxiety in like big groups of people and I would just make up things like, "Oh, well, I'm just bad in big groups." Until I started to learn about, oh, wow, okay. When I enter a room that's filled with a lot of people that I don't know, I start to have these reactions. I have what I would label as being nervous. I would start to sweat. My heart rate would start to come up. These are physical reactions that I was having to my environment. And that's a state change, right? If we were gonna talk about states, that's a state change. And if you don't notice that that's something that's happening in a moment, you may think all sorts of things about yourself, or you may make all sorts of meanings out of what's happening. But when you're just like, "Oh, my body is doing the smart thing, which is it's entering a situation where it's feeling uncertain and it's kicking off with what it's very baser survival reactions. That's totally normal. Right? Okay, cool. So that's totally what I'm pointing at. And I think that that's one of those things that even when we're talking about like the collective crisis, and we're talking about the pandemic, the collective crisis, it's created a state where people have been in this ongoing chronic state of survival, which has a lasting effect. So a lot of people right now are lower capacity, lower patience, right? Things are setting them off more than they would. All of that stuff messes with your cognitive function also. So that can make an impact at work, that can make an impact in decision-making. So having some awareness about that is a big deal and is something that, I would just love if everybody started to realize that they can have so much impact from the neck down, as opposed from just the chin up.
How do we go about bringing awareness to those things? And I recognize there's probably many. Whether it's anxiety, like there's a lot of different, I'm picking anxiety cause you said it, but there's a lot of different things that people walk through life without the awareness of, and don't even know how to start to recognize that. Right? You know, that neck down. I will happily share about me in specific. I have talked about this many times with people in my life and I'm someone who over, I will intellectualize a feeling, like that. I've had therapists, coaches that I've worked with who are like, you don't even realize. Like you're just jumping into intellectualizing it long before anything else. And I say that with like, it's challenging to even know where to start to build that awareness when you have that. I mean, like you doing coaching, I work with people and feelings. I work with people. And yet for myself, I'm like, I didn't even recognize how immediate that was happening in the moment. Like, great, I'm already in the intellectualizing of the thing that has happen, as opposed to feeling the feeling.
Yep.
So I say that, as someone who is not speaking from a place of, "I have the answer to anything.", but from a place of, "I think we all need help with this." And how do you even start to build an awareness if you don't have someone who says, "Hey, you're doing this. You're intellectualizing that feeling. You're not connecting to your body. You're not connecting to what's actually going on, you're jumping into this thing." If you don't have that voice, how can you start that for yourself? What could that even look like?
Yeah. Such a good question. So this is like building any muscle, right? It's like, if I wanna be able to do a pushup, for a lot of us, and I'm speaking for myself. If I wanna do a pushup, I actually may not be able to do a pushup by just trying a pushup, right? That may be too much for my body. I'm like, if I try to do a pushup, I'm failing at it. And then I feel like it's something I can't do. So if I'm learning to do a pushup, there's different progressions I might use, right? Like I might start by pretending a pushup against the wall. And then maybe I start to get down lower. And then eventually, maybe I'm doing a pushup on my knees. So there's these progressions. And it's the same thing with awareness, right? It's starting to just build up those muscles bit by bit. So when it comes to awareness of states and physicality and feelings and that sort of stuff, I take it in two layers. Or three layers actually. So the first layer is an external awareness, which for those of us who are visual, it's like we get to look around our environments. And this is something that you'll see animals do, right? Looking around. And it's something that if you're stuck in your head a lot, it may be something that you're not doing. And again, these things are gonna seem really, really simple, by just orienting to your physical environment. Like looking above you, looking below you, looking in the corners of the room. This is your body reminding itself that it's physical. Okay. I'm a physical person in a physical room. I'm looking around, I can see walls. I can see that there's somebody on the screen in front of me, right? So this is a physical orientation which starts to create this environmental awareness and how you interact with your environment. Then there is the awareness of physical body, right? So it's like, I can notice my body weight. I can notice the texture of my clothing on my skin. I can notice temperature. I can notice like my hands are sweaty right now. Maybe I'm a little bit nervous about this conversation so my hands are sweaty. But I'm a little bit cold so I've got my scarf on. I can smell that there's this essential oil over here. So I'm just starting to take in my physical senses. That's also something I can notice how my body moves when I breathe. There's a physicality to breathing. So I'm noticing breathing, I'm noticing body weight. Something that humans really really like, and really really cling to, which is one of the things that's very difficult about crisis is predictability and reliability. And one of the great things about gravity and breathing, is that they're predictable and reliable, right? We can count on gravity to do what gravity does, and we can count on breathing to do what breathing does. So anchoring to something that is predictable and reliable right in this moment, makes a big difference in times of crisis. So again, building that awareness. And then there's that internal layer, which we can also call interoception, which is what happens inside. This is physical sensations like, how do I know I'm hungry? How do I know I'm tired? How do I know I'm thirsty? There's this internal indicators that happen inside of me that if I am aware of them will cue me in. And that's the same thing, physical sensations that we interpreted as feelings. So just starting to have a practice of these layered noticings is where you can start to create awareness over time. And it will build and it will build and it will build.
Got it. I think it's really important to separate those out because I think when we are in a moment of crisis, when we are dealing with change, the last thing we're going to do is have the awareness to run through those without a practice prior to that of being aware.
Yes.
And putting that together, right?
Yes.
You don't jump into an Olympic weightlifting event and be like, "I'm gonna lift a thousand pounds." No, you're practicing every day up until that point to lift the five pounds, the 10 pounds. And it's the same thing, right? When someone is not in crisis, listening to this podcast or watching the video, have them go, "Oh, three states of awareness, three ways I can pay attention." And it's something we can all practice right now. So that when we're in that moment where things are going awry, it's like, "Okay, here's some of the tools that I've been practicing on my own time. So I can manage myself, my reactions, whatever's happening in a way that I feel proud of."
Totally. And, you know, even as people are listening, you can play around with listening to our voices, and then also noticing your body weight, or like how you're moving and if your body wants to move, or could you make yourself a little bit more comfortable in this moment? Just check in with yourself. Could I make myself 5% more comfortable? These are all things that seem so simple, but are really impactful. And for the body and for the nervous system and for human beings, the most impactful things are really tiny and really simple. And again, for our big intellectual brains, we don't really love that answer. We want something to be complex and layered and, you know, 10 steps to get me. No, honestly you can keep it really tiny and really small and have it make a huge difference.
It's funny cause I use the example of taking deep breaths before, because everyone always is like, "Take the deep breaths." "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And we all roll our eyes. But it's a huge game changer for changing our states. Take five slow, deep breaths when you are facing an unknown, dealing with something unpredictable. It's incredible how much space it gives you just from a few deep breaths. And it is a tiny thing, but to what you're saying, it is predictable and reliable. Our breathing is predictable and reliable. And when we do that check, it's such a simple thing, but it's like people have dismissed it because everyone always says, "Take a few deep breaths." and it's because it works, not because it's just a thing to say.
Totally. Yeah. And I'll go even further to say that these are practices that are so individual. So even when it comes to breathing, depending on who you're talking to, depending on people's histories, depending on all sorts of things. Breathing is a strange thing because we can control it. Right? It's like the back door to our nervous systems in a lot of ways and how that influences us can also be individual in some ways. So I really encourage anybody listening too to even experiment with like when you're paying attention to your breathing. Just pay attention to your breathing without intending to do anything with it. If anything, does that do anything? Does that shift anything? What happens when you take smaller breaths? What happens when you take bigger breaths? Just paying attention to how you, in your own self, how this impacts you. Cause for some people, I've found that like the deep breaths for some people is very common. The deep breaths for other people can actually be real activating. Like can actually really amp people up even more. So play with these things and take the information as an experiment, which is another thing we can talk about is that the concept of an experiment. Don't take my word for it. You listen to this podcast, take what works and leave the rest. I'm not like a guru on a hill talking about this thing. You have to sort of filter this through your own experience. Is this true for me? Is this helpful for me? Take it if you want it, and leave it if you don't.
Well, I'm gonna make a bold statement here, which is no one should be listening to a guru on the hill. What is true for anyone else is not instantly true for you.
Please.
Not only you, Audrey. Don't take anyone who is ever on this podcast, who is ever on any podcast, who's ever doing anything as the truth. No one has the one way that is going to work for everyone. So let's pause that idea out the window entirely. And to your point, take what works, experiment, try different things and see what's valuable to you. Right?
Yes.
When you were talking about breath, I immediately thought that of course, I think of things like breathwork and I think, oh, when you are doing breathwork, if you've ever done breathwork, there are ways to do long, slow, deep breaths that get you deeper, that get you activated that get you into all these different states because it's about playing with breath. And that is, it is about finding what's gonna get you to the state that you want to be in.
Right. Exactly. Totally.
Okay. So there's two things I wanna talk about. You can tell me which one you wanna go to first because they both come up here. One is the idea of experimentation. And I'd love to talk to you a little bit about that. And also I do wanna talk about this idea of perfectionism because I think that if you are dealing with anyone who is a leader or an entrepreneur, you are dealing with a lot of perfection that comes up from many people. So I do wanna get into both of those. Wherever you wanna start, let's start there.
Yeah. Let's start with the perfectionism because the experiment is a natural diffuser, I suppose,
I love that.
When it comes to perfectionism. Yeah. Yeah. Something we had talked about prior to, which I think might be helpful for listeners is just the concept of excellence versus perfectionism and the fact that they are two different things, but they can often get mashed in as people feeling like they are practicing excellence. When in reality they are clinging, white knuckling their way through something via perfectionism.
Tell me a little bit more about that because I wholeheartedly agree. And I would bet a lot of money that many people who are perfectionists or recovering perfectionists who hear that are like, "No, it's just excellence. What are you talking about?" They're the, "Excellence is being perfect. So nothing is wrong. That's what excellence is, when nothing is wrong." Right? I'm sure you hear that resistance too, where it's like, "That's what I'm already doing. I'm working at making sure nothing is wrong."
Right. Since we've talked about the nervous system a little bit. And since we've talked about survival a little bit, let's talk about survival as it relates to perfectionism. Let's just talk about what that might look like. So I did a series of interviews called the perfectionist interviews. The perfectionism interviews. And I spent over 60 hours with individuals who were like, "Hey, I'm willing to talk." Like willing volunteers. These are people who I was like, "Hey, you know, I need some specific language for this book I'm writing. Would anybody have a conversation with me?" 60 hours later, I've talked with a lot of perfectionists. And number one, perfectionism isn't something that people just choose halfway through their life where they're like, "You know what I haven't tried yet? Perfectionism." "You know what? That's something I really wanna pick up and get good at."
This is something that has been with people for the majority of their lives. It's something that's helped them function in some way. It's something that has helped them achieve. And so this is the crux where it comes to perfectionism and why people, I think, cling to it so much is perfectionism gets people where they wanna go, right? Perfectionism has gotten people where they are in their lives. It's brought them success. It's brought them, probably, maybe money. It's brought them power, whatever it is, perfectionism has gotten them to a certain point. What I wanna say is it's not gonna get you where you wanna go, but it has brought you to a certain point. So there is this huge fear that if I release my grip on how I'm doing things, that I'm gonna become a lazy slob that lays on my couch all day long, has no ambition and never does anything in their life. That life for the rest of my life. Why? Because this is survival, right? When we go into these swings of either or, this very, it's either this or it's either that thinking, that's like a number one, we are in survival right now. Right? When you cannot parse out the nuance of a thing, you are in fight or flight, you might be in freeze, you are in a state that's got a hold of you. And that's the thing with these states sometimes is that like there's not morality in a state, right? It is a physicality. It is chemicals in your body. It is reactionary. So we don't always have influence over that. In the beginnings, we just don't. Our bodies take over, it does its job. So perfectionism is different from excellence in that you may look at end results. Maybe the end result of excellence and the end result of perfectionism may look about the same, but the impact on the individual is very different. And the meaning is very different, right? If we are orienting to excellence, at the end of the day, we are not our accomplishments. If I am orienting to excellence, I'm okay. If the project goes really well, I'm okay. If the project goes sideways, I may feel disappointed, I may feel frustrated, but I'm okay. Generally, I am conscious, aware, and there's like this physical distance between the things I am doing and who I am. For perfectionism, there is like a real tie in to what it means about me. There's a lot of avoidance. So this is the thing. Perfectionism thinks that, If you're a perfectionist, the very core is, if I do it perfectly, I'm not gonna feel anything bad. I'm not gonna feel anything uncomfortable. And that goes right to that core of safety and belonging. That's the survival, safety and belonging. I'm gonna belong. They're not gonna kick me outta the village. I'm gonna be safe. So perfectionism is avoidance of the bad stuff. If I can get it perfectly, I will never have to deal with any of these negative things that I don't wanna feel. Right? So there's a lot of like this I don't wanna experience, I can't handle this. Which is when things go sideways, they have a hard time dealing with it because it becomes personal. They get into these, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get kicked out of the village. And I'm using very dramatic language. People may be a like, "Well, I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm gonna," you know. Again, this is not thinking.
Yeah.
Like when I work with people and they start to do things that scare them at this core level, and again, there may not be a conscious awareness of this. They will say things like, "Oh wow, I didn't die." Like I tried that thing and I didn't die. That language is the language of what the actual core feeling is for people, right? So paying attention to your language when you're talking about these things. Like, "Oh my gosh, I kind of feel like if I do this thing, I feel like I'm gonna die." Okay. Well then there's something there, right? And again, perfectionists are really frustrated because they're like, "I intellectually understand that this is not a problem. But on a physical level, I'm terrified." So that's kind of like a lot. I just threw a lot of information out there. The biggest differences, if we wanna pull out excellence and pull out perfectionism, is perfectionism is like behavior is tied to the human. Whereas excellence, behavior is like an action of that human being. And that human being is not at the end of the day, they're not beholden to, if this thing goes wrong, then I'm a terrible person. Then I'm a failure.
So I'm curious about something. I know a lot of people who would fall into that perfectionist camp and are also really wonderful procrastinators.
Yeah.
And when we were talking about avoidance, I thought, "Oh, that's really interesting." Cause it makes me think that that procrastination is avoidance of what they think, my guess is, I'm making a lot of assumptions, which is why I'm posing that I'm gonna give you my assumptions and I'd love your perspective on it. So what it makes me think inside of what you said made me think, "Oh, it sounds to me like they are, I mean, obviously, procrastinations and is avoidance. But like they are avoiding that, you know, bad feeling that not belonging, that whatever. Cause it's better to not do it at all than to not do it perfectly. Cause if it's not perfect, then they're definitely gonna be kicked outta the village. Whereas if it's not done at all, then someone else will do it or at least they're flying under the radar. It's almost like that, "No, one's gonna see me if it's this way." And again, lots of assumptions, please push back. But when you said that, I was like, "Oh, that's really interesting." Cause that's where my brain went.
Yeah. Yeah. Procrastination is such an interesting thing. And yes, a hundred percent. Procrastination and perfectionism, they come hand in hand. And as somebody who experiences both, I can tell you, it's a lifelong lesson for me. This goes along with one of the things that comes along to with there's something around perfectionism. And this is why experimentation is really important for perfectionist too. And also, I just wanna say really quickly, I am not villainizing perfectionism, okay? Like I'm not villainizing saying it's this awful horrible thing. I'm not diagnosing anybody. I wanna make sure that's very clear, right?
Yeah.
Perfectionism. Fine. We use these words. We have things that we mean about them, but what I'm really talking about is impact, right? If you experience this and it has an impact that you are not happy with, and you're not enjoying and it's not serving you in a way, well, let's talk about some alternatives, right? So that's what we're talking about here.
Yeah.
One of the things that seems to be pretty consistent with perfectionist is that there is this feeling of like, "I get one shot. I have to nail it on the first try." And that there's not room for iteration. That there's not room for experimentation. And it's like, okay, so if I'm in the not only mentality, but like physicality of I get one shot, that's a lot of pressure. And if I only get this one shot, well, I better get this right. But I don't feel like I'm ready for it. And so I'm gonna keep putting this thing off. So there's like a couple of different things about that. Cause I got this one shot, there's a lot of pressure. The other piece is that if you procrastinate and you'd put something together last minute and maybe something does go sideways, then it's like, "Well, you know, I just didn't." I can blame it on lack of time. There's things that I blame this on. Other than I literally didn't prepare. I didn't prepare in time. I didn't give myself the time. I didn't set up strategies to help me out there. I think there's layers of that. And yes, avoidance behavior is a hundred percent a piece of that survival networking thing that moves through us for sure.
I very much appreciate your perspective on that. And it's funny because I think that, and I wanna say what you said about like it's not about villainizing perfectionists or perfectionism at all. I think is really important because for a lot of people, perfectionism is what gets them to a particular place of success. And it does work for them
Yeah.
And it does serve them.
Yeah.
And then at a certain point it stops serving them.
Yeah.
And then at a certain point, it no longer is doing the thing that they were hoping it was going to continue to do. And that's when this conversation, these topics, will become really relevant. In that moment for them is when they're like, "Oh, I don't wanna feel this way." or "This isn't doing what I wanted it to do", or "I'm missing opportunities because of this." or whatever it is for them. Or "I'm tired all the time and burnt out because I'm working 24 hours." Whatever it is. And I think that is really important to emphasize because too me, it goes back to that old adage, which is like, "What got you here won't get you there." So it worked to get you here. If you're looking for that next level, that next change, whatever it is, probably something's gonna have to shift.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Especially in positions of leadership, right? There is not certainty. There's not predictability. You need to have agility. Right? There has to be agility. There has to be problem-solving that has up on a regular basis, thinking on your feet, thinking creatively, not getting stuck and taking things personally. And even as I'm saying these things, this is not about being some unfeeling robot or something like that. It's actually the opposite, right? When you start orienting away from perfectionism, you start actually feeling things. And that's one of the things that the work that I do, it's like people start to use the phrase, "I'm really uncomfortable." That's when you know, right? Because being uncomfortable, we can often make meaning out of it. And you know what? Sometimes being uncomfortable is just being uncomfortable. And if we can start to be able to be uncomfortable a little bit more as we're moving through different spaces, that's what starts to build capacity. That's what starts to be able to allow you to be a leader that can be in situations and to think clearly. Because if you're taking things personally, now, all of a sudden it's about you. No, it's gotta be about your team. It's gotta be about the project. It's gotta be about the things. And being uncomfortable in the mix is part of it.
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And it goes back to our brains, not our natural anything. Our brains want to avoid that being uncomfortable, no matter what, right? Like that's part of what our brain is trying to protect us from, being uncomfortable, because you could get hurt, you could get whatever the case may be. So it's an important place for people to get to. And it's a hard place for people to want to be in, for anyone.
Yeah. Yeah. That's why there has to be a willingness with any of this stuff. And like, I'll say that too, right? If people are listening and you're like, "I hear that and I'm not open to it." That's fine too, because you know what? There is a starting point for everything. And sometimes just having a seed planted or having a new concept is the starting point. And when you are ready to start taking that on and have support around it, because that's a big piece around. Perfectionism wants to operate in isolation, right? And perfectionism very often is a different experience from people on the inside than people on the outside are seeing. Sometimes perfectionists are so at masking, that you may not even realize it. Somebody from the outside may not have any concept that that's what this person is experiencing. Some perfectionists are pretty obvious from the outside. And there's also a very covert perfectionist. So, you know, maybe it's hard to take this in when you're moving through your day and you're sort of observing your co-workers or maybe you're observing your team and just kind of keeping these concepts in mind. Is there some perfectionism going on? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe observing yourself. And again, it's not about just flipping the table over and starting, it's, again, about these little tiny changes. And again, that's how the body changes, right? That's how the nervous system changes. If we're building a new muscle, it's the same thing with how we find safety in the world is little iterations, checking out, that didn't kill me. I'm still supported, I didn't get kicked out of the village. Cool. Let's try something. Let's push things a little bit more.
I can only imagine what it's like to broach the topic of experimentation with perfectionists who think they want, or who think they have one shot, who think they want. Who think they have one shot to get things right? And you're saying, how about we experiment and try something that may or may not work and that you then will take information from and try something else. I can only imagine what that's like. And I'm curious what that has taught you about experimentation that you would apply or advise in general, whether it's to perfectionists or not. Because I think that's just a real specific reaction, I'm guessing.
Yeah. Actually, I get really positive reactions to experimentation because it all of a sudden opens up room for possibility, where it's like, "Oh, I don't have to commit to this for the rest of my life? No, not at all. And listen, if you hate it, you don't ever have to do it again. Let's try it for a week. Right? Let's just try this thing out. What do you wanna experiment with this week? What are we experimenting with this week? Okay. You know, it's like, what's tolerable? What's interesting? What's the thing? What are we gonna play around with here? Cause this is how we do, like tiny. Here's the thing with an experiment, okay. So this is something that's also important to understand from my perspective. The experiment should be small. In the beginning, right? When we're starting with experiments, cause we gotta build capacity. The experiment should be small. It needs to be doable. You have to be able to do it. In your in your perspective, cause perfectionists are really good at biting off more than they can chew, maybe it seems a like too small, right? Okay, let's experiment with this tiny thing. You're gonna feel like it's totally stupid and that it's not big enough. Let's do this. Let's do this for a week. Let's see how it goes. Because again, this is where people start to build some confidence. I didn't die. It went pretty well. It was okay. All right. I'm gonna try again. I'm gonna be a little bit braver. I'm a little bit braver. I'm gonna be able to take some bigger steps. All that sort of stuff. So small, doable, experimental steps. That's how we take action.
I love that. I think the idea of small and doable, experimental, obviously, but it is really important. Listen, I wouldn't necessarily categorize myself as a perfectionist and I know even for me, I'll be like, "Oh, okay, I need to do this thing. I'm gonna do all of the things that are possibly related to it in any single way." So I can only imagine as someone who really as a perfectionist or can see that in themselves, what it would look like for them. Because even for me, I'm like, "There's 86 things related to it. So let's do all hundred of them at once." Which is never small and never doable.
Exactly. Yes.
So I think it's a really important. It's a very important note to have for one who is thinking about what experimentation might look like for them.
And,
Yep.
The importance of trying, right? Like trying something out.
Trying something out. Exactly.
Listen, this has been fascinating and super valuable. And I think that many leaders and entrepreneurs and business owners, which are a lot of the people that listen to this would self-identify as some level of perfectionism. So I think this is super valuable for them. But before we wrap up, I always like to ask the guest, is there anything that we spoke about that you wanna emphasize and go back to? Or is there something that we didn't get to or that you wanna make sure that people walk away from this having top of mind?
I think the main thing really is because there's this thing called, what I call the perfectionist 2-step, which is see it and fix it. So I don't want anybody walking away from this and being like, "Oh my gosh, I'm a perfectionist. I gotta fix it. I'm gonna read 15 books on it. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this." Take a pause. If you're already taking notes and you have like 50 things that you wanna do to like, so-called fix yourself. Like, take a pause, just stop for a second here. Perfectionism is a very logical and normal and smart way for your system to be moving through the world. It's started probably way back in the day. It's totally logical. It makes complete sense. And as you are in a different context, you are in a different age, you are a different everything. It's just a matter of getting your current body and current mind on board with some of this just original orientation, right? It's just a reorientation. So anybody who's listening to this is like beating themselves up or feeling that they need to fix something. I wanna just break it down and say, there's nothing wrong with you. Actually, perfectionism is an extremely smart way that your body has figured things out. And okay, let's work with it. Right? Have compassion, have patience, work with it and realize that this is some thing that's actually an amazing indication of who you are as a person, because I've not met a single perfectionist in the world that did not have an extreme care and compassion and love for people and the work that they do. Like perfectionists are the most caring people that you will encounter on the planet. So all of that.
I love that. I think that's a great takeaway from today for people to have top of mind, because it's about recognizing where you're at. I love the perfectionist 2-step idea because I can definitely see that. Let's not do that. Let's not jump into solving the problem right away. So I love that pausing and really reflecting on where you're at and recognizing the good that comes of this. Like everything. It doesn't make a difference who you are, what you identify as. There are positives and negatives. There's wins and challenges inside of all of these things. And it's not about, let's throw the baby out with a bath water and start fresh.
Right.
That should ever be the takeaway of anything that anyone ever says, because that ain't true.
That ain't true.
Audrey, it's been a pleasure having you. Thank you for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you online? What's the best place for them to check you out?
The best place to check me out is probably if you head to the website, if you go to fortitudeandflow.com So that's fortitudeandflow.com And if you actually go to /perfectionist, I have a whole guide on the perfectionist archetypes. So we didn't even get into the archetypes today, but this is a cool thing where with all the interviews and all the time I spent talking with perfectionists, I found these five specific archetypes that people tend to show up as. And so if you can figure out what your archetype is, that can give you a good starting point as to what might be the most helpful first step, right? What's your first experiment if you're like, "Okay, great, Audrey. I don't need you fixed, I'm really great, but I wanna do something. Go get the guide. Check it out. And figure out what your first experimental step might be.
So we will link that in the Shownotes for sure. I think you will have to come back at some point and talk about those perfectionist archetypes. And we can literally just chat about that specifically.
Yep.
Cause I have a feeling that that's gonna be a big hit with the folks.
Totally.
Just a kind of feeling, let's put it that way. Thank you for your time, Audrey. It's been a pleasure and I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today.
Yeah. Thanks so much for this conversation. It was so fun.
Thanks for joining me today on the Leading Through Crisis Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca#063D4F