Today, we are joined by autistic advocate and host of the Autistic Culture Podcast, Dr. Angela Kingdon. Angela drops a science/history lesson, a ton of pop culture references, and some much-needed thoughts on neurodiversity in the workplace and leadership.
“Many people with autism gravitate toward leadership because of the traits and values of our culture… We’re born leaders because we’re born to see world-building vision.”
Today, we are joined by autistic advocate and host of the Autistic Culture Podcast, Dr. Angela Kingdon. Angela drops a science/history lesson, a ton of pop culture references, and some much-needed thoughts on neurodiversity in the workplace and leadership.
Listen in to find out:
- What Angela’s learned about herself and this awesome community since being diagnosed in 2012.
- Why understanding the things neurodivergent folks have to know about themselves (to accommodate their environments) would benefit 100% of people, neurodivergent or not.
- The horrifying story of why we don’t use the term Asperger’s anymore.
- Why leaders must develop cultural literacy around differences (aside from the fact that it benefits them too).
- Some great anecdotes about autistic people, inventions, and culture.
“Autistics have been around forever – they created the first stone tools, but it wasn’t a label or diagnosis until 1943.”
“Taylor Swift and her great aunt, Emily Dickinson, are both perfect examples of autistic traits.”
“When people are neurotypical, they’re so used to assuming their way is the way. One-size-fits-all isn’t real, and that does need to shift.”
—
Dr. Angela Kingdon is a dynamic autistic advocate, author, and speaker, renowned for her impactful work in promoting neurodiversity and supporting autistic individuals. As the host of the Autistic Culture Podcast, Angela shares her experiences and insights as a late-diagnosed autistic person, aiming to create a more inclusive and understanding society.
Angela's journey began with a diagnosis at the age of 39, which she describes as a turning point that allowed her to embrace her unique neurodiverse perspective fully. Leveraging her lifelong special interest in non-fiction, she founded Difference Press™ and created The Author Incubator™, a program that has helped nearly 2,000 entrepreneurs write, publish, and promote their books. Angela's expertise and dedication have led her company to remarkable success, with her clients' books reaching millions of readers and generating significant revenue.
Angela holds a B.A. and an M.A. in Journalism and Media Affairs from George Washington University and a Ph.D. in Communications from the European Graduate School as well as a graduate certificate in Corporate Social Responsibility from the Unviersity of Colorado Boulder. She is also a bestselling author of eight books, including neurodiversity-affirming titles like The Equalizing Quill and Make ‘Em Beg To Work For You, which have earned her acclaim and recognition in the publishing industry.
Angela is not just an advocate; she is a beacon of inspiration, empowering autistic individuals and educating the broader community about the value of neurodiversity. Her advocacy extends beyond her professional work. She actively engages with audiences through social media platforms and her podcast, sharing her story and encouraging others to understand and embrace neurodiversity. Her commitment to making the world a safer and more inclusive place for neurodivergent people is evident in her storytelling, public speaking, and educational efforts designed to foster neuroinclusive workplaces and provide valuable insights into the benefits of neurodiverse teams and strategies for creating supportive environments for autistic individuals.
Regulating Stims: echolalic singing, nail-biting, fidget bubble poppers
Alliterative SPINs: Hamlet, Hamilton, John Hamm
Website: https://angelakingdon.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelakingdon/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/autisticculturepodcast
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drangelakingdon
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AutisticCulturePodcast
[00:00:00] I'm Celine Williams and welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, a conversation series exploring resiliency and leadership in challenging times. My guest today is Dr. Angela Kingdon, who is an autistic advocate, best selling author, and host of the award winning Autistic Culture podcast. She is also on the editorial board of Neurodiversity Journal.
Her work as a writer and speaker promotes neurodiversity and autistic pride. Welcome, Angela. I am here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have you. I'm excited for this conversation. Also, for anyone who is listening or watching. I know Angela in real life. So it's always fun to have someone that I really know on the show.
It doesn't happen very often. So I'm super excited about this.
Angela Kingdon: So fun.
Céline Williams: so before we dive into the conversation, which I've no doubt is going to be amazing. I always ask the question. The name of the podcast is leading through crisis. When you hear that, what does that mean to you?
Angela Kingdon: first of all, it's a terrifying [00:01:00] title because I was like, Oh my God, leading through crisis.
That sounds awful. I would like to nap through crisis. Who wants to lead through crisis? That's a trigger warning. but yeah, no. This is the thing when you start something and like I'm a theater person, so it's like if you start a show, if you start a podcast, if you start a company, anything you start a lemonade stand in your neighborhood, I think most people's brains, what would make you want to start something is a sense of optimism.
No one's let's do a play. It'll suck. So you're thinking of all the good things. You're thinking of people applauding. You're thinking of changing people's lives. You're thinking of making people happy. You're thinking about working with people, but you're not like, wow, I bet someone's going to die.
I'm going to get a terrible cancer diagnosis. Someone in the cast is going to run over somebody else's cat. Like none of those things come up. [00:02:00] If they did, you wouldn't be the kind of person who started this. So yes, eating through crisis is you could just change your podcast name to lead it. That is what it is that is what makes us leaders who come back for more of this nonsense.
Because you have an idea, you have a vision, and you want to make that real, maybe the first time it was a surprise. But now I'm like that 8 million things is going to go wrong. So I better really want to make this vision happen. My, my son started a business, car detailing business. I love this story because.
He, if I do any business coaching with you, I will tell you, don't do partnerships. They're recipes for disaster. I'm like, I hate partnerships. I always steer people away. of course, my son was like, starting a business [00:03:00] with my best friend and we're going to have a car detailing, business.
And I, as a business coach, as somebody who has experience as a business, I was like, Do not do it. But as a mom, I was like, sounds great. My child. Yep. And then things happened like he showed up and his partner didn't or his partner did a job without him and pocketed all the money or like they were having fights over what the name should be or and so many.
And I thought, if you want this business. You are going to have to figure all these things out and this is just the beginning. there are so many more things. and he will probably start multiple businesses. He's an entrepreneur major in a real estate major. So he's going to do that. And that is what leadership is.
Is like going back for more knowing somebody is going to [00:04:00] want a different name. Somebody's going to go, you are going to have a business partner who promised to split 50 percent of the money. Take all of it. That's again, not leading through crisis. That's just leading. That's what it is. That's what you signed up for.
Surprise. Sorry.
Céline Williams: No, but I love that. And I think it's, I think it's very apt, right? yes, the podcast is called leading through crisis. And one of the things that I say all the time is that everyone's crisis is different. It's really just. Challenge your change and what's constant, right? That's if you are stepping into any kind of leader.
If you're a human on this earth, you are leading through crisis.
Angela Kingdon: I do think some people I would say, honestly, I would say my husband really doesn't. Okay. He, he leads himself.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Angela Kingdon: And he is a form of leadership. Oh, good. We have a great co leadership in our [00:05:00] marriage, but he does not look for extra leadership chat.
I literally go out seeking opera. I like apply. Sometimes I apply to volunteer to leave. This is shenanigans. My husband's I have enough. I want if I am not forced to be leading something, I will like to listen to they might be giants and watch them soccer. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think everyone chooses this and I do think leaders are special because We learn very quickly.
my son learned at 18. Oh, if I'm going to start leading things, it's not going to be easy. We learn. And then we keep doing it because we want that outcome enough to do it. Not because we suddenly think it's going to be easy. So I have a, another fun story, which is I have a podcast. It's called the culture podcast.
And I have a, I say, don't do partnerships. I [00:06:00] have a partner. I have a co host. I heard him and this. This is a partnership that was formed after I turned 50. I had learned many, hard lessons about partners through crisis, leading through crisis with a partner, by the way, is 10 times harder than leading through crisis alone for anyone wondering why I'm like, don't have a partner.
so I'm like, I want to do a podcast. I really like this guy. I heard him on another podcast and I decided we had to be best friends. I was like, he shall be mine. I shall make him mine. And so I did a thing. I pitched the podcast idea to him, but I had in my back pocket, this thought that it is probably going to be a disaster because almost every partnership is a disaster.
I'm going to give it 95 percent odds. And the worst thing I will have done is learn some stuff about podcasts. [00:07:00] Maybe I'll take the podcast down. Maybe I'll use it as a couple episodes and be like, now here's my new guest. Like when live with Regis was looking for a new host, I'm like, maybe this will be Kelly Ripa and then I'll have another one.
I don't know. So I was like, this doesn't After work. And here's the thing. It has been the easiest partnership of my life. There's not been a single disagreement, a single problem, a single crisis. you knock on something. It has been so easy. And I think that is. First of all, a miracle that I'm grateful for every day.
it's a three year partnership now. It's incredible. Like part of the key, I think to leading through crisis is, I always find myself singing a 38 special song from the 1970s, but it's, holding on loosely. Like having this vision. But also holding it loosely. I have this very specific vision [00:08:00] for the podcast, and I get many amazing things from my co host, but I do not get my vision.
I get another thing. It's a combination of something. It's not exactly what I want, but if I'm holding on to my vision really tightly, that's why I mentioned that I'm 50. Because, I've learned, I hold on loosely. Yes. I don't let go, but I don't cling too tightly. Sometimes it's his vision, and sometimes things don't go.
And that I think is like one of the big keys is that we make our own. Sometimes there's a real crisis. Of course. Sometimes we make our crises. And so one of the things that happened is we both moved. This summer, like in the kind of back to back, I moved and then he moved that could have been a crisis.
Absolutely. But I just [00:09:00] decided it wasn't going to be, I just wasn't gonna, if we miss some episode, I'm like, we're not trying to like evacuate babies from the Gaza Strip. Yes. It's a podcast about autism. If we miss some episodes, the world will live like, so anyway, that's my first, that's my first thought on that is like.
Some of the crisis in my earlier pre turning 50 was a little self created,
Céline Williams: which, I think is really very human experience because we get so attached to it's you've worked with entrepreneurs and I would say this is true of entrepreneurs or leaders. We get so attached. To the idea and then the how we have to know the how we have to be really clear on and that attachment to that not only the idea about how it's going to look, how it's going to [00:10:00] go.
We set ourselves up for failure because we are not even we're not we're just not open to it being different or better or what? Because it's not the exact thing.
Angela Kingdon: And then so I had a content idea for my podcast that I not being met perfectly or exactly right. But in 100 plus shows, probably more like 125 for because we also have 100 episodes that are free but we have paid episodes as well so probably 125 recording sessions.
Matt has been on time prepared positive even if he was sick or in a bad mood. And I am so grateful for that now. Whereas I think at other times in my leadership, I would have been like, that's table stakes. That's expected.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Angela Kingdon: And I'm like, get some things, but I get a guy who's on time [00:11:00] prepared in a good mood, ready to work.
Like I have so much more gratitude and noticing like mindfulness attention, noticing the things that are working. Whereas I think our brains are like he's seeking muscles for all the things that aren't working like I imagined us showing up wearing pink shirts. I sent you the pink shirt. Where is the pink shirt.
How come you're not in the bit and so we're like seeing that and now I'm like, dude, move his house is full of boxes and he has found a way to pull his microphone out a plus that didn't get packed in some box bear like to. Yeah, I feel like there's the vision for what should be, but there's maybe not respect or noticing part of that vision is happening.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Angela Kingdon: Maybe in some cases that you're not even seeing, like I also vision he would show up on time in a good mood and ready to work, but [00:12:00] I might not have been grateful for that at other times.
Céline Williams: Yes. I'm curious. Cause it's, I, it's. As much as it'd be nice to just say it happened because you turned 50, I'm guessing it's not just that it's not like you hit 50 and we're like, Oh, yeah, everything's changed.
My mindset is this and here's where I am. And I'm great. I'm guessing it was not quite that simple. So
Angela Kingdon: you just have to be around enough years for the other things that happen to happen. So I think it's more time, served on the planet. But I do think there are a couple very specific things that happened that changed my leadership style.
and I guess some of that is related to time, but some of it's related to circumstances. So I started my business. Right around the same time that I was so I started my business in [00:13:00] 2010 I was diagnosed as autistic in 2012 and In that period between 2010 and 2013. I was still working a corporate job So even though I technically open the doors to my business I was in that transitional phase
Céline Williams: yes,
Angela Kingdon: and yeah, so when I got diagnosed super busy two toddlers so Bill, I was head of the household.
I was in charge of the financial stuff for the 4 of us, full time corporate job, full time starting a business. And I was just 37 or something, Oh, and going through a very messy divorce that was not completed and was terrible and awful child custody, all the things
Céline Williams: that's, a lot for anyone all at once
Angela Kingdon: diagnosis when I got, diagnosed as [00:14:00] autistic, which I'll tell you that story in a second.
But when I got diagnosed, there wasn't. Like a big period of reflect. I don't know if you've ever been around toddlers, but they don't go well with reflection. It wasn't like, let me sit on the couch and reflect upon this. It was like, okay, next, do this, do that, run here, do that. Build the door and gas.
Like you go. So for me, it took me 10 years to really process that diagnosis. And those 10 years are also known as my forties. perfect. There was a lot of integration and processing. One of the things I see a lot is, we are getting better at diagnosis. I was on the early side of late diagnosis, but more and more people are being diagnosed as ADHD, autistic, neurodivergent, combined type, ADHD, whatever.
I was at the beginning of. The [00:15:00] growth of that, as we got more clear about what those terms were, there weren't as many tools and resources. There were not none, but there weren't as many. And now what I see is people get diagnosed and within 6 months, they've started an ADHD coaching business and I'm like, my friend.
It. You may not be ready to help people with this. I know it feels like you've learned a lot 'cause you've been deep diving and it's all you've been doing. But I know how much I've changed. If I coach people, let's say a year after my diagnosis, there would be almost nothing I said then that I would say today, yes, almost nothing would be the same.
and again, there are more resources now, so maybe I would've consumed more content, but a lot of it was the effect. On me and the way I changed and what I learned about myself that couldn't just something I read, but I had to go through cycles around [00:16:00] the sun for things to come up for my kids to get older to move to all the things that had to come up.
Céline Williams: There's a it. We can't downplay the experience of going through that like you can read. All you want as I've talked about on the podcast. I know I mentioned this to you before. I was diagnosed a number of years ago, not that many years ago with ADHD. And even though I knew before that I was like, I'm pretty sure this is a real thing like all the experience of having that diagnosis and going through and learning more and figuring out for me, what is particular to me and my experience that.
Is so significant that we can't underplay it because it's not a one size fits all for any diagnosis.
Angela Kingdon: No, and I even want to go beyond diagnosis because when I look at the tools we give neurodivergent [00:17:00] people understand their sensory needs. To understand emotional regulation to understand how work life balance works for them, which is very different.
Usually neurodivergent people. We need to work 9000 hours in a row and then take 3 months off work. Life balance is very different. When I look at that and I think about anyone on the planet, neurodivergent or not, to understand these things about yourself, I think benefits 100 percent of people. Now, you will need fewer accommodations if you're neurotypical, but knowing these things bother me, you still are more bothered by loud sounds than lights.
You still are more effective with white noise on there are still things you can learn about your sensory profile [00:18:00] that will only make your life better or about your rest needs or about so many things, your rhythm, what time of day you work, there are all these things that we have to go. Through to accommodate our environment to what's going to work for us.
So we don't end up in meltdown or burnout or things like that. That 100 percent of people benefit from, I think, and certainly anyone who interacts with neurodivergent people, which, we're 10 to 20 percent of the population. So every teacher, every barista to know these skills is going to benefit you.
Manager.
Céline Williams: I agree. 100%. They're like, I think about this is A very basic example for a reason, but I think about how the expectation in the workplace is you are in your desk by 830. You have your lunch at 12 to 1 and you leave at 5 and that is just, that's what works for. [00:19:00] And if that means you have to leave your house at 7 o'clock in the morning, we don't care because that's the reality and the number of people that just accept it.
And they're like, but that's the way it works question it without ever
Angela Kingdon: question it for almost 40 years. How else could it work?
Céline Williams: We're and I say that, it seems obvious because I have never been a morning person. So when I had to be in an office at 8 a. m., I was useless in the morning.
Useless.
Angela Kingdon: That's how we want. We want to pay for you at your least smart and effective,
Céline Williams: right? So many places don't even question something like that, which then means the people who work there aren't questioning. They're not thinking about their own needs. It's that's just the way it is. This is what we do.
Who cares if it's not best for me, Right.
Angela Kingdon: Fascinating. It's totally fascinating. Yeah. Yeah.
Céline Williams: I'm so [00:20:00] I'm curious. I'm not sure exactly how to phrase this curiosity. So bear with me. But as, if I think about leaders that are, whether they are entrepreneurs running large organizations, whatever the case may be, to your point.
There are 10 to 20 percent of the people out in the world who are neurodivergent in some way, shape or form when I think of those leaders who hear that. And I know there are going to be some who are like, I don't know what to do with that. what does that mean? How do I show up? What does. I don't even really understand what autism is.
I don't even really under, I'm not trying to
Angela Kingdon: blow up my life,
Céline Williams: right? What do I do with this? do you have any advice or thoughts or perspective for them? your experience, but I want to
Angela Kingdon: give you a boring science lecture first.
Céline Williams: Please
Angela Kingdon: hit me who doesn't want a boring [00:21:00] science lecture on their podcast or Ooh, I'm listening to this podcast.
I'd like some biology, but
Céline Williams: I am into this. So I'm going to just be like, let's do it. Yeah.
Angela Kingdon: You guys fast forward if this is fun. In the beginning, autism, so autism existed 50, 000 years ago. First stone tools were made by autistic people. We've been around forever. We were sometimes known as shaman, because in some communities, we were shaman, that kind of role.
we were often https: otter. ai So the men would go off for the hunt, the women would go off to gather and we would be some non binary person that was an artist or a tool maker or, and they would be like, it's that weirdo. We're not sure if it's a girl or a guy, but they're doing a thing. But there was not a medical term.
It wasn't a medical. disease. It wasn't that, it [00:22:00] was, there were just some unique people in communities that played a very specific role. Sometimes we were non speaking, sometimes we were attributed with spiritual skills, telling, talking to dead people, whatever, all different things. And that, by the way, in indigenous cultures is still true to a large extent.
And then in 1943, autism became a diagnosis, not related to neurodivergence or ADHD, actually related to schizophrenia. And a particular type of schizophrenia, which is called childhood schizophrenia. So schizophrenia, we know usually is shows up between 19 and 25. It's part of the development of the prefrontal cortex.
But then there are these weird non speaking. So we're missing most of the autistic. We're missing most people with ADHD. There were these weird non talking people. They must have schizophrenia. So [00:23:00] we called it autism, but we had it super duper wrong. This is only 80 years ago, over time and, in the blip of humanity, this is not, this is a second, it's no time for all of humanity.
So in that time, we have refined the diagnosis to mean many things as we have learned more about it. What I am going to tell you, the latest research shows. is that this is a genetic disease, not disease, but this is a genetic condition, genetic trait that is passed on very similarly to eye color and handedness, left handedness.
Very similar. And it is, this is what it specifically is. And this is true for all forms of neurodivergence. When you're born, you have the, same, but we all have the same amount of [00:24:00] synapses, like brain synapses that are connecting things. It's why babies can't like focus on the mobile. They can't see your face.
And then what happens is something called synaptical pruning, where instead of just seeing everything, you know how they'll say you use 7 percent of your brain. That's because these synapses are being trimmed. And we're like, Oh, I know that face. And then we're like, oh, she keeps saying mommy and the synapses are being trimmed.
We make more and more connections, right? That are neurodivergent have a difference. in how that synaptical pruning panned out. So 80 percent of people, typical 80, 20 roll, middle of the bell curve, have a synaptical pruning pattern. It's different for everyone because it's a neurodiverse world. Nobody's the same, but they're within.
The range, the standard deviation, they're there and [00:25:00] it means certain things like if there's a loud sound, it's annoying and then it's over, right? And there are people in the skinny bits and the ends that have very different synaptical pruning, which could mean they don't speak. It could mean when a sound goes off, it's so physically painful that they take to their beds for two weeks.
Because those synapses have a different pruning pattern. Those patterns are things we call ADHD, Tourette's, dyslexia, autism, bipolar, it means the synaptical pruning is in a different pattern. Those things. But we also do have neuroplasticity and those things change and they change over time and they change with puberty and with hormones and a whole bunch of things, mindfulness meditation might have an effect on some of it.
So you still have. As a neurodivergent person, the lack of [00:26:00] synaptical pruning, which comes from a resistance to mTOR protein. So just if you had insulin resistance, your mom or your dad probably has insulin resistance. That's why they ask you, do you have diabetes in your family? If you have mTOR protein resistance, which I do, and you do, it means one of your parents has mTOR protein resistance.
Could show up lots of different ways. I don't think there is anything personally called ADHD or dyslexia or autism. I think those are all made up words and made up recently in the dawn of history. I think there's just neurodivergence, aka all brains aren't the same. If you look at a bell curve, about 10 percent on either ends are going to have the most variation from the ones in the middle, which would be the same thing as variation for eyebrows or arm length or ear lobes or daffodils.
Yes, of course, [00:27:00] biodiversity is gonna, there's gonna be a homology of form. It's gonna look the same. Yeah, when people hear the word ADHD, they might think crazy professor, I don't think it has all great connotations. And she's a little, she's a little ADHD, like, when they hear the word dyslexia, I think they've had better press.
So they're like, oh, that sucks. Super smart person who was never taught to read. I don't think people think dyslexia. That's a dummy.
Céline Williams: Yep. I agree. I think it's great person.
Angela Kingdon: By the way, same chance of them having a, an intellectual disability or not You don't actually know. Just better marketing.
And then the marketing us assholes over here in autism got is non speaking intellectually disabled people. Intellectual disability has nothing to do with autism. You're just as likely to be intellectually disabled if you're [00:28:00] autistic or not. But you are more likely to be diagnosed in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s before we understood mTOR protein resistance.
So what got them looking at why you weren't speaking, you had a more dramatic presentation and they're like, Oh, what is this thing? We'll call it autism, not really realizing the full breadth of what autism is. So net, and then there's the movie rain man, which had a big effect by the way, he doesn't even have autism.
He is like savant. He is neurodivergent though. He does have a stem to our protein, but that's not what autism, he's the one who doesn't look like autistic. I look plenty autistic. Thanks. Yeah. So, that I think label any of those labels ADHD, dyslexia, and I would say they're like dyslexia is super positive.
Couldn't be we know nothing about those people from [00:29:00] that label. ADHD is little positive little negative shouldn't be we know nothing about those. And autism is like this terrible tragedy you should be institutionalized and you can't feed yourself. Which is a percentage of autistic people, also a percentage of ADHD people, also a percentage of dyslexic people, also a percentage of neurotypical people, not connected at all.
There, there are some higher occurrences of certain conditions in neurodivergent people, but there's also higher occurrences of sickle cell anemia in black people, or higher occurrences of different conditions in, higher occurrences of, Alcoholism in Irish people, but that doesn't mean being Irish makes you a drunk.
That's not despite some propaganda. Otherwise. So that's what I think is so interesting about why there are many. [00:30:00] Many autistic people gravitate towards leadership because of the traits. And values in our culture. and I'm going to give you some examples that I think are super fun. We've now left the science.
We're going to move into pop culture, which is more fun. You can see very clear traits of autistic culture as an example with the Star Wars franchise or the Pokemon franchise. So I could do more, but those are two autistic culture examples that are really clear. We know George Lucas and Satoshi Tahiri are both autistic.
they are both collectors. They are out of the box thinkers. They are world builders. They create new paradigms. So there had never been filming the way star wars was filmed. It was never done that way. George Lucas invented it. Till an autistic person invented stone tools or suspension bridges.
Nobody thought that was possible or [00:31:00] Copernicus saying no, we do not revolve around the sun. The sun revolves around up people like your whack my guy, let's put you in jail. That is autistic culture, seeing things and making those connections. Why do we make those out of the box connections?
Hyperconnected brain. The exact reason why a loud noise can put us in bed for two weeks with the right synaptical pruning profile.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Angela Kingdon: So we are born leaders because we are born to see world building visions out of the box thinking. It doesn't mean every single autistic person is a leader, diversity and everything, but many autistic people have a very clear business vision that they have to see through.
So one of my favorite is, Edward Muybridge, who is the inventor of motion pictures. He had a tragic fall. His neurodivergence, he was, we think he was [00:32:00] autistic, but he has neurodivergence that came from a traumatic brain injury. So inflicted. Potentially addition to born with he fell out of a carriage at the turn of the century.
And as he was falling out of the carriage, he saw the horse legs moving. And as he saw the horse legs moving, it was like, the last thing he remembered, he couldn't get it out of his head and he had this idea. There was a way to photograph these horse legs. So you could see them moving and it's all he thought about he was non speaking and he was in recovery and he almost died.
And when he came out, he made the first flip book and that. So he invented photography, invented the flip book. Then he created this carousel that would like, show the horse moving because he was so focused on the idea that we could capture motion, right? Through this injury, he was able to see and pattern match and see how to do it.
Satoshi Tahiri, with the invention of Pokemon, was [00:33:00] obsessed with bugs as a kid. And he would collect them and label them and give them attributes and make essentially trading cards for each of his bugs. And then if you look at what, Pokemon is, you can see that collection curation data hunger. That's what autistic culture is.
of course, many of us would be CEOs. but we're not embracing the word autism, maybe people are a little more comfortable with embracing neurodivergence, but we're not embracing the word autism in many cases because we don't know Taylor Swift and her great aunt, Emma, Emily Dickinson, both perfect examples of autistic traits.
In their writing in the connections they make with their writing in their monotropic focus in their absolute [00:34:00] obsession for perfection and what they're doing in their intention to detail. And again, that's, a genetic connection, which we know autism is genetic. So if we thought of, if we closed our eyes and thought, who's an autistic person, I don't know, Taylor Swift, we wouldn't be saying you don't look autistic.
Céline Williams: Yes.
Angela Kingdon: Or.
Céline Williams: I, could listen to you talk about this forever, just so you know, and the, thing that came to mind is besides the marketing of autism has been really terrible. that's
Angela Kingdon: why the autistic culture podcast, we have taken on the job of PR department for yes, they are the autism department.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
But it's really necessary because to your point, if people thought of Taylor Swift, when they thought of autism, if they thought. Then it would the reaction in general in the [00:35:00] workplace and whatever environment would be so different instead of we were talking about this before we hit record, which is at best.
What you get now is oh, but they have Asperger's still right? that's some exception that makes
Angela Kingdon: it, I'm going to tell you a brand new thing. I learned about Asperger's. So I don't know if all your listeners know this. So if you use the word Asperger's, it, it's not fine, but it's fine.
I'm going to teach you some things that might make you want to use a different word. When I was diagnosed with Asperger's sometimes the term high functioning is used that equally terrible. I'll explain why in a minute. there are other labels for a label. That is also stupid because remember most of human history, all of human history.
There have been autistics. Most of it. We didn't have this. This particular label, right? I don't know that we grow is helpful, but [00:36:00] we have always been there. The label has not. So the Asperger's label, the reason why we stopped using it is the real reason we stopped using it is that it causes harm to everyone, because there are times when I might be high functioning, but there are times when I am not high functioning and by calling the Asperger's or high functioning, it's very hard for me to get support.
And then for people who are non speaking or have intellectual disabilities or other medical disabilities, they get the thing that fat people get when you break your arm and they're like, you're like, Oh, I broke my arm. Can I please have a cast and they're like, you need to lose weight. Yeah, helpful.
Thank you very much. So all of their actual medical issues and needs are ignored because it's all put into this bucket called autism. And we need to sort those things out. What is autism and what are [00:37:00] the other things that might need support? AKA, are you a gestalt language processor? Do you need a speech language pathologist or an AAC board or somebody who understands that?
We can't just bucket it in autism and try and solve it with. I don't know, colloidal mercury silver tonics trying to get rid of the autism, right? So that's not a thing. You can't get rid of left handedness or gayness or autism. Those aren't things we can't do that. Get rid of drink this. So we need to identify the needs of each person.
Which will be different, and we need to treat those needs. that is the reason we stopped using that term. It's been out of the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual for a decade. if you were diagnosed with it after 2013, you shouldn't be, but it is what it is. If it makes you happy, use it. I don't care, I got bigger fish to fry.
I don't think it's helpful, but this story changed [00:38:00] my mind, and I just learned it. I have known for a long time. There's a great book. If you're interested in anything I'm saying, and it doesn't sound like boring, read Steve Silberman's Neurotribes. And I learned this story in this book that there was a doctor named Hans Asperger's who, studied autism in Nazi Germany.
And they, as part of the Nazi Germany project, they, obviously anybody that was ill or sick wasn't good for the master race. And so they eliminated those people to cure the race. And so if you were like a non speaking autistic person who was banging their head against a wall. And wasn't able to communicate and get their needs met.
And obviously they didn't have spellboards. They weren't trying to meet your needs. They eliminated you from the planet. You went into a bucket called people not worth having. If they could do gene splicing and just [00:39:00] have those babies not born, they were the, let's get rid of them. But there were some hand chosen people that Hans Asperger's picked that were known as Asperger's kids.
That he was like, these are good ones, we shouldn't stick them in the incinerator. And I got diagnosed as Asperger's and so I always thought, even though this is gross, I would have been one of the ones that Asperger saved, right? Like I'm like, good, I'm high functioning, I have Asperger's, I'm the worthy, savable one, the Asperger's, when people are attached to the title Asperger's, they really just want you to know they're the good kind.
Yep. Not the bad kind. I'm the good kind. You'll see. I'm the, you should save me. Don't stick me in the incinerator. That's what I mean. So I've known this story for quite some time, but yesterday I learned a new thing and I know it's true, but I have not [00:40:00] personally done the research, but I will tell you as soon as I tell you this is going to hit you and you're going to be like, oh, that sounds right.
The story about Asperger's, he picked out the ones that were worthy of saving and Asperger's kids were the ones worthy of saving. He made the assumption that meant they were smart, had a high IQ, could mask socially. And this woman commented and she's have you looked at Asperger's notes? You could go to this library in Germany and you could read Asperger's notes.
He wasn't saving the smart ones. He was saving the smart ones who were willing to do the dirtiest jobs of the Nazi regime. He was saving the ones that could be malleable, which there's a whole thing about autistic naivete. Yeah. Saving the world builders who wanted to [00:41:00] build gas chamber systems. He was saving the ones that could support the Reich.
Of course they were. They weren't like, she's a pain in the ass rebel rouser. Let's save her.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Angela Kingdon: Greta Thunberg wouldn't have had Asperger's. She wouldn't be an Asperger's kid. Me and Greta were in the incinerator with all the non speaking kids. So Asperger's doesn't mean the good ones, the smart ones, the ones that will add to the community.
It means the ones that will add to the rake. It means the malleable ones, the perverted ones. The Elon Musk would have been fine. You'd have done great. No problem. We would have saved him. He's Asperger's kid. Yep. Aaron Trump and his dad, they would have been Asperger's kids. Mark Zuckerberg. There's an Asperger's kid, but yeah, we're out.[00:42:00]
Céline Williams: Yeah,
Angela Kingdon: Brandon makes it we're out. Yeah, almost no women would have made it, even if they were identifying us as Asperger's, but that is not what was happening. very as soon as she said that I'm like that they weren't. They weren't keeping the people that were going to fuck with the Reich.
Céline Williams: Of course not.
Angela Kingdon: They were keeping George Lucas, if they could get him to make films about how awesome the Nazis were.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Angela Kingdon: But he was going to be a pain in the ass about it.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Angela Kingdon: my friend is why we don't use the term Asperger's, I'm just going with autistic.
Céline Williams: And I, hope that. Anyone who is listening or watching this who still used that term is now and we're done.
Right.
Angela Kingdon: I might retire that one. It was really hard for me to retire. And this is why I say I do have, first of all, I like being the good one. There's like the bad autism and the good [00:43:00] autism. I want the good kind. Or people with a little bit of autism or mild. Oh, my partner's diagnosed with mild autism. I get it.
You're the good one. I got it. Yeah, just see that. And if you have needs that need to be supported, we can support them. And if you don't have needs, that's fine. We can move on with our evenings programming. If you are finding yourself that you need to clarify, you have a little at a little autism, a touch of the autism, your neuro spicy, but you don't want to say, I really hate the nurse.
Céline Williams: Yeah, me too.
Angela Kingdon: You couldn't tell. Want to say autistic or neurodivergent? Yeah. What's the problem? What's the holdup? I think there is internalized ableism, and I think there is self hate. And for me, there was also fucking marketing. I had paid somebody to do a brand for me that was called the Sassy Aspie.
And I had a super cute logo. I met her through super [00:44:00] connected media. She was awesome. So Chris and Jen, who I know you all. Yeah. And I loved working with her and I paid her a ton of money and I had the website sassy Aspie and I had all the social media handles and I had a blog post. I was very attached to that term, invested in it, but then I was like, not sure I want to be associated with Nazis.
That was like the first one. But then when I thought back more, I'm like, oh, this actually harms everyone because we're not seeing what the support needs are. We're seeing the label and we're like, if she has Asperger's, I don't have to worry about curing her. But if he's autistic. then we need to cure him.
Let's get him some colloidal mercury silver. Let's get him some EMDR sessions. Let's lay off the wheat and dairy and let's get this Jenny McCarthy. Yep, and I'm pretty sure that's the same thing as let's stick him in the gas chamber if we can't fix him [00:45:00] because the success rates on curing autism are about 0.
Yeah. It's like curing blue eyes, you're not going to cure them, who we are.
Céline Williams: And I, love the way you've said that and I think it's really important and I want to emphasize it before we wrap up is that it's not about, it isn't about curing something. It really is about how do we see each individual, by the way, neurodivergent or not, but how do we see each individual as an individual with individual needs, full stop.
Yeah. Yeah.
Angela Kingdon: I got a drill on this a little bit, just relating it to leadership. So I started my company. I started hiring people. I was newly diagnosed. I thought of this as a private, I wasn't, it wasn't a secret, but it was like private medical information. Sure. like I probably wouldn't have been a secret if I had MS.
But I wouldn't be like I wasn't running an MS company. I wasn't going to talk about it. It was [00:46:00] private information. My goal was to minimize the symptoms as much as possible. Luckily, I had Asperger's so I could do that. So I was like, let me mask my symptoms as much as possible. And the message. Completely subconsciously, this said to my team is if there's anything different about you, you should mask them too.
if you're in a wheelchair, just don't let that interrupt our event. If you're ADHD, please get to work at 8 a. m. and be at your desk. whatever your things are about you, you do what you need to do. Let's not bring this into a professional workplace. Fix it and show up and do your job because I'm going to show up and do my job, even though I have a disability, like I'm going to do my job and as time went on and I stopped seeing, first of all, I stopped seeing myself as someone with Asperger's and I started seeing myself as someone as autism and with all the birthrights.
Of being an [00:47:00] autistic person and part of autistic culture and my incredible ancestors, my dad and my grandmother and what I have as an autistic person that I also have as an Italian American and really celebrating all of that to celebrate all those things in my employees. I didn't want them to cover up the fact that they were in a wheelchair.
I didn't want them to cover up the fact that they were ADHD. I didn't want them to hide their dyslexia. I wanted to celebrate it as much as they wanted to. And I wanted to accommodate it because I wanted my team to accommodate me. I had a, a sales call with somebody who said, yeah, the way we work is we'll work with you and your team.
You're going to have a meeting every day at the exact same time. 9 a. m. It's going to be a 10 minute meeting. It's called the stand up and you're going to do a stand up. And I was like, that is not going to be working for me. [00:48:00] That literally will make me want to quit my job, file for bankruptcy, and run to Canada.
There's nothing I could think of that's worse than having a meeting for 10 minutes every day at 9am. I'd much like a meeting for an hour more. What could you possibly, even telling this story makes me want to rip my eyeballs out. I don't want that. That doesn't work. So it's not gonna work. No. It's not going to work.
I did not hire this person, but, and to be fair, he didn't make me an offer because I was like, I can't, I wouldn't work for me. Your standup might work for you. And if it does, we should do that. So I started to encourage my team members to figure out what are the hours that work best for you? What are the lighting condition?
Can I give you a, I did a 250 dollar sensory accommodation budget. What do you need a better chair? Do you need a better light? Do you need better ear defenders? Sweet. [00:49:00] What do you need to do your job in a way that feels good to you? What are the resources that we can put in place that are not expensive, but that acknowledge you're a human and this didn't matter.
If somebody was neurodivergent, it didn't matter what their diagnosis was like, I could give a shit about your diagnosis. A hundred percent of people deserve accommodations in work and school and in their homes that make them happy with it. I'm not going to change my whole company and start selling landscaping because you want to work outside.
Quit and go work for a landscaping company. But can I buy some curtains for your office so it's a little quieter so you don't hear the street noise? Sure. 25 bucks. Blackout curtains. Fine. So that's what I want to say about the crisis that I had was switching my mindset with kind [00:50:00] of, employees under me, switching my mindset from this medical model to this more social model of neurodivergence.
Made a lot of changes in the company, the meeting structure, the communication structure. I do a lot, but I actually have an auditory processing condition. That's part of my autism and I do a lot better in writing. Yeah. Another, coach, I didn't work with him, but we were in a mastermind was like, no matter what you do, no matter what, put nothing in writing, always do it in audio notes because people won't hear your tone.
I am 100 percent sure that works for him. I don't know if he's neurodivergent or not. That worked better for him. No, not for me. Doesn't work for me. So instead, I was like, here's how my tone sounds in writing. Here's what I mean. And if you are going to interpret it another way, we are going to have an HR conversation every single time.
Céline Williams: Yeah.
Angela Kingdon: Because do not interpret for my tone. If I ask a question, it does not [00:51:00] mean I think you're doing a bad job. It means I want the answer to the question. There's no subtext. There's no secret agenda. So I spent a lot of time teaching autistic communication styles, which more on this, you can put this in the show notes, look up the double empathy problem by Damian Milton.
This explains it better, but there is a way to autistic people communicate. And that communication breaks down like a lost in translation thing. if I'm speaking Spanish to a Spanish person. Yeah. Like I literally called this woman once in Spain, at the front desk of a hotel. And I insisted I needed a barco de vapor.
A barco de vapor. And she's you want a steamship? I'm like, no, I just want a steamer for my clothes. There is going to be stuff lost in translation. Yes. I was going to say a steamer. I just wanted a steamer. I didn't want the steamship. Not
Céline Williams: the steamship, yeah.
Angela Kingdon: Yeah, That's what happens with autistic [00:52:00] and holistic communication.
And I was like, as the autistic and neurotypical non autistic communication, as the CEO, you are going to have to develop cultural literacy around autistic communication. Many CEOs are autistic. Many CEOs are ADHD. Many. And we're seeing the cultural communication differences of your boss. I think that if it's everyone, cause you're going to have an uncle and a kid and a friend and a librarian and a barista, we need more neurodivergent cultural competency.
Céline Williams: I agree. And I hear that in, I think it's not only look, I think ultimately it is allowing space for people to ask for what they need to know what they need And, and it's not taking away from the neurodivergent piece of it, because I think that is the catalyst that is making it clear that we need more of that in the workplace and in many environments, [00:53:00] that to your point, the accommodation is for anyone who has any kind of different need within reason, it should be okay to state those things up front and to ask for them and to have them available as opposed to them not being, and this is, I'm very anti the one size fits all thought process in general.
And so when you're, when the person you were talking, the coach you were talking about who was like, Oh, you have to, everything has to be in voice notes. Me too, by the way, also have a podcast. I love like a live conversation into it. I hate voice notes in a way that I get. I'm like, I'm so distracted by the world.
what is voice notes that have transcription? Those are the only ones that are allowed. Absolutely. So it's, but it's so funny, like, how I think if you are not, I think when people are neurotypical, [00:54:00] they just, they're so used to assuming that their way is the way. That they don't even consider that one size fits all isn't real and that needs to shift.
Angela Kingdon: Yeah, there's so many. we have a great episode of the autistic culture podcast is especially great for ADHD people. But I think. For a lot of neurodivergent people. It's called productivity is autistic. Okay. I want to say it's episode 56. And in this episode, I break down the book Atomic Habits by James Cleary.
Yes. A lot of ADHD people love this book. And it's just a great example of one size fits all, this habit stacking and all the nudge stuff. It clearly works for James Cleary. I'm so happy for him. It works. Yeah. It does not work for neurotypical people at all. we do not habituate, I can get into the boring science of that too, but it does not work for us.
There are other [00:55:00] productivity techniques that do work for us, but I'm going to tell you what most of them are. What you figure out makes you productive. Not what one dude wrote in one book.
Céline Williams: Yeah. That
Angela Kingdon: book, atomic Habits, which has sold 1.8 billion copies. Oh yeah. Is one Dude's Productivity Skill that works for one dude.
And it is not you. Nope. Maybe it's got a couple doppelgangers there. Maybe there's three people on the planet that books works for. None of them are a DHD or autistic. Nope. but the biggest fans of that book are ADHD people. They love it. They read it like candy. It's like fairy floss. They can't get enough of that book because it's some fantasy of what their brain could be like.
They had a different brain in some other parallel universe. And you talk to ADHD people, they review the book about it. They're in the club. They buy the extra packages and programs and journals and bullet journal. They got [00:56:00] all of it. They would eat his supplements if he sold them. And then you're like, have you done anything in the book?
And they're like, I've tried, but it's never helped. Or I keep meaning to read it. Like they say the funniest shit. Yep. But they don't do the book. They just worship it.
Céline Williams: What is behind my desk that you can't see, Angela? Is a stack Of notebooks, like a stack of perfect notebooks where I am going to be really organized and do all the things and create the whatever it is. I have probably 50 notebooks that are sitting over there in my dream brain. I am so organized. I, my habits are amazing.
Your alter ego loves
Angela Kingdon: journaling.
Céline Williams: Loves journaling and keeping track of things. My dream brain is amazing. You said that and I was like, oh, I, yes, I 100 percent relate to that. And you're right. Like it's [00:57:00] never one size fits all. And yet we sell it like it is.
Angela Kingdon: Yeah, it would be nice. If it were like that, somebody could just tell you, here's the magic bullet, take it works every time.
You're good.
Céline Williams: My, I say on a weekly basis, I, if I had the answer to that, I'd be a billionaire. I would have solved every problem. Sadly, you are a unique human and I don't have that.
Angela Kingdon: I can't. It is the journey.
Céline Williams: It
Angela Kingdon: really is. and I think that's a good, takeaway for leading through crisis is being present for the journey.
And I have. Wasted precious time during crisis is looking for the solution, looking for the book or the person who could tell me what to do. And you are the person who can tell you what to do.
Céline Williams: I don't think there's a better place to end this episode. That is perfect. Thank you. I adore you. And I'm so glad you got you came and chatted with me today.
This is I can talk to [00:58:00] you for hours. Thank you so much. Truly. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me today on the leading through crisis podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation. Please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast app. If you're interested in learning more about any of our guests, you can find us online at www.leadingthroughcrisis.ca.