In this episode of Leading Through Crisis, Céline Williams is joined by leadership expert and bestselling author Amy Riley to explore how leaders can build trust during uncertain times—even when they don’t know what comes next.
When organizations face crises, change, or uncertainty, many leaders feel pressure to withdraw, control the narrative, or pretend they have all the answers.
Unfortunately, those behaviors often become the very trust breakers that damage teams and fuel fear.
In this episode of Leading Through Crisis, Céline Williams sits down with leadership development expert and bestselling author Amy Riley to explore how leaders can build trust during uncertain times—even when they don’t know what comes next.
They discuss why transparency matters, how silence creates stories, and what it truly means to lead with connection instead of control.
This conversation is essential for leaders, managers, and business owners navigating disruption, change, or high-pressure environments.
🔑 Key Topics:
- One of the biggest leadership mistakes made during crisis
- Why leaders don’t need all the answers
- Trust breakers to avoid
- Leading with connection, not control
- How to rebuild trust after a misstep
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Amy L. Riley is an internationally renowned speaker, author and consultant. She has over 2 decades of experience developing leaders at all levels. Her clients include Cisco Systems, Barclays and Google Drive.
Amy earned a Master of Science in Training and Development (MSTD), with an emphasis in Organization Development (OD), from Loyola University in Chicago, Illinois. She is a Certified Professional Behavioral Analyst (CPBA), a certified Lead True Coach and is certified in the Myers-Briggs Type Instrument.
Her #1 international best-selling book is entitled "The Courage of a Leader: How to Inspire, Engage and Get Extraordinary Results."
Learn more and grab the book at: courageofaleader.com
Or connect with Amy on LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/amyshoopriley) or Instagram (@courageofaleader).
[00:00:00] Amy Riley: So sometimes we need to remind ourselves about why trust in our relationships is so important, because our brains might be saying, oh, don't go do that again.
That didn't work out last time.
[00:00:12] Judith: Welcome to the Leading Through Crisis podcast, brought to you by reVisionary. Exploring resilient leadership in a world of constant change. Every few weeks, Céline Williams — speaker, strategist, and trusted advisor to leaders navigating change — brings conversations that explore how to deal with the inevitable and perpetual shifts of leadership. These discussions reveal practical insights, thoughtful strategies, and stories of resilience to help you lead with clarity and calm.
[00:00:42] Céline Williams: My guest today is Amy Riley, leadership development expert, international speaker and bestselling author of The Courage of a Leader and host of the Top 3% Globally Ranked podcast, the Courage of a Leader. Welcome, Amy
[00:00:56] Amy Riley: Céline. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
[00:00:58] Céline Williams: I'm very excited to chat with [00:01:00] you today. Before we get into all of the amazing things that we will get into, I'm gonna ask the question I always start with, which is the name of the podcast is Leading Through Crisis. When you hear that phrase, what comes up for you or what does that mean to you?
[00:01:14] Amy Riley: Love this question.
Céline. The first thing that comes up for me is my heart goes out to leaders, right? Like is in a crisis. Leaders feel like they have to know what to do, that they have to have all of the answers that you, you know, it just, I just feel the cortisol. Flooding into their bodies and feeling like they've gotta get it all figured out.
Yeah. And Céline for me, I think, so many people's natural tendency is to step back, withdrawal and try to figure it all out, and then present themselves as together. And I have the plan where I would say the exact opposite is probably what's needed. Connect with the [00:02:00] humans.
[00:02:00] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:02:01] Amy Riley: Right. When something is going on.
You don't have to have all the answers. No one probably has all of the answers connect with people. How are they doing? What are they concerned about? What are they seeing in the future? What are they hoping for? Connect with the people even if you don't have the perfect things to say or the roadmap figured out.
[00:02:25] Céline Williams: Yeah, it's, I've said this so many times in my life that I'm definitely a broken record about this, but we have to stop perpetuating this idea that leaders know everything and have all the solutions by themselves that it's just, you're a leader, therefore you have to solve this.
You have to know this. This is on you. We have to stop perpetuating it, whether it's through culture or teams or whatever. Because these moments are a result of that. Because that leader, those leaders often feel like I have to [00:03:00] have the solution. People are relying on me. It's all on me. It's not on any one person ever.
[00:03:07] Amy Riley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to people, ask questions, get input, see where folks are at. It's probably much more important in those moments to ask and listen than it is to have a whole script ready to tell.
[00:03:23] Céline Williams: We perpetuate the ideas that the leaders are the tellers 'cause they know everything.
And so asking and listening can feel not like leadership to people who don't see that. Like it feels like that's not what a leader, why would I ask and listen and connect.
[00:03:40] Amy Riley: Right. I'm supposed to figure out and tell and declare.
[00:03:44] Céline Williams: That's right. When you tell and declare and you don't ask and listen, we don't have connection.
People don't feel seen and heard. People don't feel they know you, they don't like you, they don't trust you. It's like, oh, that person [00:04:00] is on a pedestal, whether they've put them there or someone else has.
[00:04:02] Amy Riley: Yeah,
[00:04:03] Céline Williams: that's not the person I'm going to go to or connect with or rely on in any way.
Right? Which then again, perpetuates that isolation.
[00:04:12] Amy Riley: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And if we're the leader that's withdrawing and thinking that we have to figure it all out, then we're not accessible in the most critical moment, right? Then it feels even more isolating and your team members are gonna be left to their own devices to fill the gaps.
They'll probably make up a worse story than what's really going on. And if you're just accessible and there to talk, whether you have a bunch of stuff to say or not, that is comforting.
[00:04:47] Céline Williams: You said something that I wanna poke into a little bit, which is this idea of like, people are gonna make up a story one way or the other.
[00:04:54] Amy Riley: Mm-hmm. '
[00:04:55] Céline Williams: They are.
[00:04:56] Amy Riley: Yeah.
[00:04:57] Céline Williams: And they'll often make up the story [00:05:00] in behind closed doors. Right? So not that you don't know the story that they're making up necessarily, it might trickle up like this, this whole. Because they don't feel comfortable sharing their thoughts, fears, experience with the leader.
[00:05:14] Amy Riley: Yeah.
[00:05:14] Céline Williams: And the leader is so disconnected in those moments that they're also not digging into it, or they're like, oh, it'll pass whatever the case may be. ~Yeah. And. I am, I've seen this happen a lot. I'm sure you've seen this happen a lot.~
~And ~I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the things that can mitigate, minimize that experience for the lead? Like what can the leader do?
[00:05:37] Amy Riley: Yeah.
[00:05:37] Céline Williams: To minimize or mitigate that experience?
[00:05:39] Amy Riley: Yeah. First of all, I'd love to say that all of these behaviors, that might not be helpful in the moment, could all come from great intentions.
[00:05:50] Céline Williams: Yes,
[00:05:51] Amy Riley: and from hu from how we operate as humanity. Our brains are designed for survival, and our [00:06:00] brains are designed to process all of these heaps of information that we're getting coming at us all the time. So our brain is saying, look out, look out. Look out. I am supposed to protect you. And it's also trying to simplify.
So, oh, uh oh, this looks like this. Not so great thing that happened in the past, so our brain just takes it and starts filing it there and says, look out. Look out. 'cause it wants us to survive. And then leaders can be receding because they wanna try to figure out the most comforting messages to share with everybody.
So everyone can be coming from great intentions
[00:06:42] Céline Williams: a hundred percent. ~And that I appreciate the point 'cause yes. Let's not overlook that. Yep. ~
[00:06:43] Amy Riley: ~Yeah, yeah. ~And then Céline, your question was how do we mitigate what could be,
[00:06:46] Céline Williams: What are some of the things that leaders can do?
Because there's obviously, if people are. When people, 'cause people do this, when people, and I'm gonna call like, the caveat I would say is, I'm [00:07:00] about to say this is like gossiping is part of how humans connect and communicate. It is not inherently a bad thing. It's how we gather and have shared information historically.
So it's not this idea that like all gossip is bad and people aren't gonna talk to try and figure things out. That's going to happen. It's not about stopping that. However, when that becomes very negative, when that starts to have a really negative impact, there's my experience and what I would observe is that there's a real disconnect in how a leader is showing up or the behavior they're exhibiting.
That is enhancing that fear, enhancing that need to create the story, whatever it is, because people aren't comfortable. Coming to them, right? Like
[00:07:45] Amy Riley: Yeah.
[00:07:45] Céline Williams: It's not just the gossip to try and see if there's a common thread ~and then you go and talk to someone, which is, that's okay, this is a different situation.~
[00:07:48] Amy Riley: ~Yeah, yeah. ~Yeah. I actually took a couple of notes over here.
[00:07:51] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:07:52] Amy Riley: What the leader can do, again, connect with the humans, connect with people. Be accessible. Schedule time, [00:08:00] call out even if you don't have anything new or different to say, be with people. Be with their emotions and know that you don't necessarily need to fix.
Anything.
[00:08:14] Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:14] Amy Riley: Right. Humans can have their reactions and being with those emotions helps them feel heard and helps them process. So be with not fix. And then do, share what you know, share what you don't know, and share your commitment.
[00:08:31] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:08:31] Amy Riley: Right. I am, committed to getting you all the information as soon as I have it.
I need to spend some time thinking about this. I need to connect with the other leaders. Whatever's true for the situation, if you can make some commitments as far as like, I have something for you next week. What I do know is that you are great at X, Y, Z, and this is the value you always. Bring, you're gonna be an integral part of the path forward.
Like whatever you can genuinely [00:09:00] say in that moment. But it's okay to say what we don't know. We are having so much disruption and complexity in our workplaces these days. There are so many situations where we are assembling the plane as we are flying it. There's the tech disruptions alone, let alone supply chain changes and other shifts, ~uh, there's things that, ~there's things that we don't know.
[00:09:29] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:09:30] Amy Riley: Right. And any, intelligent and reasonable team member knows that we don't know everything right now.
[00:09:38] Céline Williams: Yes. And I don't think we can emphasize enough that it is okay to tell people that you don't know everything and that you are going to share what you can when you can.
[00:09:51] Amy Riley: Yeah,
[00:09:51] Céline Williams: but I don't have an answer and that's not, I think it actually.
Builds trust when you are [00:10:00] acknowledging that. In fact, I, I mean, I think about COVID-19 and the Pandemic, and there were many leaders who were not doing that, but the ones who long-term people trusted or they, they started to gain that trust. Were the people going, we have no idea what this means.
[00:10:18] Amy Riley: Yes, ~yes, ~
[00:10:19] Céline Williams: ~we have, ~we don't know.
We are learning as you learn.
[00:10:21] Amy Riley: Yes. Well, 'cause what's the alternative? The alternative is that you make up something high level, right? And people can feel,
[00:10:28] Céline Williams: or you say nothing,
[00:10:30] Amy Riley: right? Yeah. Or, or, or you say nothing. And, and all of that can be trust breakers. Yeah.
[00:10:39] Céline Williams: Yeah. I have ~two questions I wanna ask.~
~This is the story of my brain sometimes. Okay. I, there's ~two questions I wanna ask. The first one is, those are trust. Are there other trust breakers that you see happening often besides like those two examples? That's the first question that comes to mind. The second one is, what are ways, if you have exhibited those behaviors in the past as a leader or as a human [00:11:00] operating on this planet, we, none of us are perfect, so
if you hear any of those trust breakers, even the two that you just mentioned, and you're like, oh, I've definitely done that. What can I now do to maybe start to shift that and become someone that is trustworthy
[00:11:17] Amy Riley: To restore?
[00:11:18] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:11:19] Amy Riley: Yeah. Oh, trust breakers, right. I mean, one that's a trigger for me if I start to feel like, they really don't know.
And I think they're just saying stuff in this moment to fill in this space, you know, and be straight with people. Like, talk about the importance of transparency. So not being transparent. I think that's a trust breaker. Obviously not doing what we say we're going to do, or if a team member brings you an idea.
And you don't close that loop.
[00:11:57] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:11:58] Amy Riley: And sometimes leaders will [00:12:00] be hesitant, like, Ugh, like we can't do anything with that. Let them know,
[00:12:04] Céline Williams: yes,
[00:12:05] Amy Riley: that is better than not closing that loop. Don't think, oh, I don't wanna give them the bad news. Give them the respect of letting them know that their idea was run up the flagpole or consider it or whatever.
And hey, we are not gonna act on that right now.
[00:12:23] Céline Williams: Yes. I just wanna reinforce that idea, because what you've just said I think is incredibly important. That it is giving them the respect of letting them know it is not giving them bad news. Right. It's not like I'm doing this to hurt someone's feeling.
I don't wanna give someone bad news, which is how we often think about it. Yeah. If you flip it to this is I am giving them the respect.
[00:12:48] Amy Riley: Yeah,
[00:12:48] Céline Williams: I mean, I would hope people stop avoiding the quote unquote bad news in those situations. But it's a really important mindset shift, like
[00:12:57] Amy Riley: yeah,
[00:12:58] Céline Williams: to how can I give [00:13:00] this person respect?
How can I respect this person even inside of bad news?
[00:13:05] Amy Riley: Yeah. And what's the positive intention that goes along with that? You shared an idea. I want you to keep sharing ideas, so I wanna let you know what happened with this idea and let you know that your ideas are being considered always. Even if we can't put them into play in this moment, so bring the next idea.
Keep it coming.
[00:13:28] Céline Williams: Yep.
[00:13:28] Amy Riley: Right. And if you can genuinely say all of that in the moment, say all of that. I think something that I'm often talking to leaders about Céline is being overt about the process of our communication. So sometimes we jump into a conversation, we're asking questions, and all of a sudden the team members like, why am I in this inquisition?
Like, why am I all of a sudden getting all these questions? I wanna understand the situation. I don't know enough about this. I'm curious about how well we're doing this. Or like, I love your ideas about how we could [00:14:00] improve this, or just letting people know, this is an idea generation.
Conversation or this is a decision making conversation or this is a, who else can we get involved in this conversation or this is just understanding the customer perspective conversation. Be overt about why we're talking about what we're talking about, and when we're shifting the purpose of the conversation so that everybody else can follow along with that.
Yeah. And know how to participate in the conversation in the best ways.
[00:14:32] Céline Williams: Yes. I think that's incredibly poignant and important advice these days. People will tell you, their leaders will tell you people in general, but leaders will tell you they're rushed. They don't have time to do that.
And it is such a small amount of time for a huge benefit.
[00:14:49] Amy Riley: Yeah. And Céline, you asked about restoring.
[00:14:52] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:14:53] Amy Riley: Um, I think you tackle it head on. Um, [00:15:00] I made a mistake with a client once. It was such a stupid, stupid mistake, Céline. I was scheduling things for two different programs for the same client, and it was global timeframes.
And I scheduled myself as a facilitator and coach in two different programs. I, double booked myself.
[00:15:20] Céline Williams: Yep, ~yep, yep. ~
[00:15:21] Amy Riley: ~I, I mean, ~what did you know? Just silly and egregious and so, and communications had gone out to people?
[00:15:27] Céline Williams: Yes.
[00:15:29] Amy Riley: Oh my gosh. I felt terrible,
[00:15:31] Céline Williams: course,
[00:15:33] Amy Riley: but I pulled my big girl pants up and I, you know, I outlined the problem in front of me and I was like, okay, here's the overlap.
How do I fix this? With. And impact the least amount of participants as possible. And it doesn't matter if I need to be up in the middle of the night or whatever, like how do I fix this with the least amount of impact? And I outlined that I. [00:16:00] Apologized profusely, totally admitted it. It was in my control and here's what happened, and here's how I fix it, and here's what I'm offering.
You know, I'll pick up these communications, I will, you know, run them all past you. And then I said, Can you talk this afternoon? You know, and I got the response. Luckily, this is a lovely woman, and she's like, the way that you handled this. I have even more trust in you, and I'm like, really up?
But she's like, no, the way that you handled this and you took this on and what you thought through to come up with the best way forward, in spite of it being like, you know, it's gonna be a little bit of a lose lose situation. She's like, I really appreciate your thinking on this and your immediate communication.
[00:16:53] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:16:54] Amy Riley: And I've worked with her in her two subsequent organizations.
[00:16:59] Céline Williams: [00:17:00] Yep. There's really something to be said for truly owning whatever. Missteps. One makes in a sincere way when it comes to, reinvigorating trust in some way, shape, or form.
Right. Like not making excuse by the way, and I need to say this out loud because. Giving an explanation is very different than making excuses, right? Like you may have explained like, I double booked myself and I messed up the time zones and I'm so sorry and I'm owning that.
That's very different than the excuse of, well there were too many times zones and like there it lands differently, right? So I'm saying that to say. Giving an explanation. 'cause context matters, right? Yeah. It's similar to what you were saying earlier. When you tell people the why, the context is helpful.
Yeah. Not turning it into an excuse, but here's what happened. Here's my [00:18:00] apology, here's what I'm gonna do different. Here's what I'm proposing as a solution. When you're actually owning it in a sincere way.
[00:18:05] Amy Riley: Yeah.
[00:18:06] Céline Williams: Which does not happen very often. Mm-hmm. As we are all experienced in, we've seen that many times in the world.
Mm-hmm. But it is a really, simple way. Not necessarily easy, but simple way of reinstating that trust because people are like, it's surprising.
[00:18:26] Amy Riley: Unfortunately it's not the norm.
[00:18:29] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:18:30] Amy Riley: Celine, I have a trust formula that I share in the courage of a leader book.
[00:18:35] Céline Williams: Tell me.
[00:18:36] Amy Riley: Yeah. It's not overly complex, it's trust equals credibility. Yep. Times connection, times commitment. And then there's one more C, the customer focus and co-creation. So credibility is sharing your expertise, making sure you're using rigorous decision making and [00:19:00] letting people know what are the criteria I'm using, deciding how successful be measured, measuring it, right?
Like just showing your credibility. Oh, and I think an important thing here with credibility is. Say where you like, this is really important for me as a leadership development consultant to say where I provide value and where I don't, here's where I'm uniquely qualified. Here's the things that I don't do because when I say I can do this and this and this and this, and I can do all the things, then someone might not trust.
Right. But where is your area of expertise and the unique value that you bring?
[00:19:41] Céline Williams: Yep.
[00:19:41] Amy Riley: I mean, connection is all around. Connect like, well, like I've been talking about, connect with the humans. Be accessible. Find your common ground. Ask questions. Listen what's important to them, right? Connect with what's important to them.
Eliminate distractions when you're talking to [00:20:00] folks, commitment. I mean, then there's a lot more we could say about
[00:20:03] Céline Williams: HBCs.
[00:20:05] Amy Riley: The commitment offers something and come through with it. Meet your. Due dates show up early for things. Agree on what responsiveness need means, how are you gonna communicate?
[00:20:20] Céline Williams: Yep.
[00:20:21] Amy Riley: And then that customer focus and co-creation, I consider those together. I thought about having it just be co-creation. 'cause I like to think like with our customers, we're co-creating and we're including their perspectives and their points of view. But I didn't wanna lose the customer focus 'cause I also want people to think about their internal customers.
And like it really builds trust if you ask about their processes and how they operate and how you can support them inside of their natural ways of working. So I think that having that focus on our customers and [00:21:00] what's best going to serve them demonstrates trust.
[00:21:05] Céline Williams: I agree. I can absolutely. Appreciate the formula and I can see the thread through it as to why that is, the trust formula.
I think sometimes when people hear formulas like that,
[00:21:19] Amy Riley: yeah,
[00:21:19] Céline Williams: they approach it in a very formulaic way. Okay. Mm-hmm. Like, it's like, okay, am I credible? Have I check, have like it becomes formulaic and we're humans, right? Like we all went to school and learned math and learned formulas and check, check, check, check.
So I am not dismissing that. And there's a lived experience as a human that this is not gonna be a formulaic. First you build credibility in this way, then you do this in this way. So how can people, and I understand it's gonna be very different for different people, so it may just be examples of this, but how, [00:22:00] how can this look for someone who is like, I want to, I want to use the trust formula.
I want to be trustworthy. How do I not just check a list of boxes that I've made notes, and then I'm good.
[00:22:14] Amy Riley: Yeah. No, I appreciate you bringing this up Céline, because we don't want it to feel transactional.
[00:22:21] Céline Williams: Exactly.
[00:22:21] Amy Riley: Don't want it to feel check the boxy.
[00:22:26] Céline Williams: Well, I imagine that we have all met someone who, when you interact, they're like, how are you?
How's your family? How's the weather? That's great. So lovely. Onto the next. It can feel for some people that. It is a transaction. It's a checkbox. This is kind of why I'm like, how do we not do that?
[00:22:43] Amy Riley: Yeah. I've got my customer profile document up and I'm going through all the questions.
Okay.
That's
[00:22:48] Céline Williams: more
[00:22:48] Amy Riley: thing I need to learn
[00:22:49] Céline Williams: about
[00:22:49] Amy Riley: Yeah. So Céline, I would love if somebody, you know, like wrote those words out on a sheet of paper, credibility, connection, commitment, [00:23:00] customer focus, and co-creation, and then thought about authentically, how do I already do that? And validate the innate natural ways that you are already creating trust.
Yes. Because there is a thing about our individual propensity to trust. Some people are like, I give tru, you know, the trust is there and then if somebody breaks it, it takes a long time to build it back. I mean, I think it's also be aware of your relationship with trust. ~Um, because whew, I mean, I think.~
~I, I, ~I think that we don't have to take a long time to build trust, that we don't have to fall into this paradigm of trust builds up over time, and it's gonna take six months or a year. I mean, our world is moving fast. We've got project teams that are coming together to do something critical and then disassembling a few months later.
We can't wait five months to create trust.
[00:23:56] Céline Williams: No.
[00:23:57] Amy Riley: So my paradigm is extend trust, and [00:24:00] then it's there.
[00:24:01] Céline Williams: Yeah.
[00:24:01] Amy Riley: But let me go back to the formula. Write down where, how, and how you are authentically already providing trust. Validate yourself for those things. And then look at what are other ways that are similar that I could build trust, right?
Or, oh, there's not as much in the co-creation, right? What could I do there? Or how could the ways I'm already providing trust, how could I do that in more ways or more situations? And look at building on what's authentic.
[00:24:36] Céline Williams: Yeah. '
[00:24:37] Amy Riley: cause then it's gonna be authentic and it's not gonna come across like I am building trust like a robot in this moment.
[00:24:43] Céline Williams: Yeah. I thank you for sharing that. 'cause I think that there is that connection to making it authentic that we can overlook sometimes and also. [00:25:00] Recognizing if you are someone who extends trust or needs trust to, or waits for trust to build, and then whoever you're dealing with, where they would fall on that spectrum.
And then how do we, speed up the trust building? What can we do wherever we are on the spectrum to. Minimize the amount of time it takes to build trust, because I am like you, Amy. I am a person who I'm gonna extend trust to start with, and I'm also gonna extend that people make mistakes and so something may go awry and everyone can make a mistake.
And that is, that happens, right? Like that's part and parcel of this. And there's a, there is a point for all of us where. Trust is going to fall apart inside of that.
[00:25:52] Amy Riley: Yeah.
[00:25:52] Céline Williams: What does that look like? What is my limit? What is another person's limit? And then how do we rebuild from there? Because oftentimes you still have to.[00:26:00]
Work with the person in some way, shape, or form. You still have to interact. So it's not just a, well, I don't trust you. We're done.
[00:26:09] Amy Riley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You might not get to say that. Yeah. If there's still a colleague or a stakeholder in your world. Say Céline. I would love to just acknowledge like, for us in our very first conversation, we were both sharing of ourselves personally and openly.
Yep. Right. And I mean, we've known each other for a while, but I feel like I've known you much longer than we have. 'cause we created that connection. Yes. Right. And we're open with each other from the beginning. So there was that extension. Now, can it be risky to extend trust? It can be, and we can probably all think back about a time that we got burned.
[00:26:55] Céline Williams: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:56] Amy Riley: But listen, if we extend the trust, we might get [00:27:00] burned sometimes, but then we also know where we're at.
[00:27:04] Céline Williams: Yes.
[00:27:05] Amy Riley: Right? Yes. And, okay. Okay. If, if that person's not gonna be trustworthy, and if I do still need to work with them, then what are my boundaries? What do we need to accomplish together and how can I best navigate that?
You know, perhaps a candid conversation or something like, something might have been happening for them or for you at the time when trust was broken and it could really authentically be a misunderstanding or a misalignment. Someone was flooded with cortisol Yeah. In that moment and it didn't go well.
So, you know, there can be repair from egregious trust breaks and sometimes. There's not,
[00:27:47] Céline Williams: yes.
[00:27:47] Amy Riley: And you need to figure out how that's going to go. But if we extend the trust and we figure that out sooner rather than later, I think that serves us either way in the big [00:28:00] picture.
[00:28:01] Céline Williams: I agree. I think that we can always, everyone gets burned at some point, whether they're extending first or waiting.
And when you extend the trust, I think that you learn quickly and you'll learn. In a lower stakes way quite often than if you've waited and then extend trust and then something happens.
[00:28:23] Amy Riley: Yeah,
[00:28:24] Céline Williams: I think it's often lower stakes, and I'm not saying it's not the truth across the board, but often you'll learn sooner because of that.
If you have to adjust your boundaries and trust may be breached.
[00:28:37] Amy Riley: Yeah.
[00:28:37] Céline Williams: Yeah. Well I wanna thank you for taking the time to chat with me today. And before I wrap this up, and send people to your website, I'm gonna ask the question, is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanna bring up or something that you want to emphasize at the end of this, ~or?~
~Not, you can also say, I am complete and I am good.~
[00:28:58] Amy Riley: Yeah. [00:29:00] I think what I would end with because, 'cause once we get burned, like we talked about earlier, our brains are designed for survival. So if you get burned, you get burned a couple times, your brain's gonna go, don't do it again. Yeah. Don't do it again.
Yeah. So think of all the reasons why you want and need to have trust, right? Because you want your team members to care and give their best, because you want your partners to share honestly, about their capability and what they want for the future. You want others to say what's important to them and what's not important to them.
Uh, you know, whatever folks are thinking over their, their concerns, their excitement. Uh, you, you want to hear all of that. If you have the trust of the people around you, it's gonna help you accomplish what you wanna be accomplishing in your days. So sometimes we need to remind ourselves about why [00:30:00] trust in our relationships is so important, because our brains might be saying, oh, don't go do that again.
That didn't work out last time.
[00:30:09] Céline Williams: I think it's a perfect place to wrap this up. So thank you for thank, thank you for being you, Amy. Thank you for sharing us openly. I think this is gonna be incredibly valuable for the listeners and the viewers and for anyone who wants to learn more about Amy.
You can check her out at courage of a leader.com, which is a wonderfully easy website to remember and I love that.
[00:30:33] Amy Riley: Thank you so much for this conversation and for the time. It's always great to spend time with you Céline
[00:30:38] Céline Williams: It is absolutely my pleasure.
[00:30:41] Judith: You’ve been listening to Leading Through Crisis, hosted by Céline Williams and brought to you by reVisionary. To learn more, visit leadingthroughcrisis.ca. Connect with Céline on LinkedIn, and explore the show notes for resources and next steps. Until next time, keep leading with courage and [00:31:00] clarity.